Why is there a T in LGBT?

[Arch]

Because no sandwich is complete without tomato?

[Sinnyo]

I'm with Emelye, and I hope I'm not re-treading too much by adding my own two-penneth.

"LGBT" works for me because there is such a frighteningly small "T" presence where I live. There are many reasons why a transgender individual would want to stay away from such societies, but I decided early on that I would need to seek out similarly-affected people. The only place I could go was a university group, with all of 4 transgender people, including me. We were united because we've all had to deal with sexuality at some point. Whether we realised we were actually gay or lesbian ourselves, or we had ruled homosexuality out and were transitioning as straight people, there was something of relevance to talk about in an LGBT group.

The four groups aren't bound, though - just as gay guys will have little to talk to lesbian women about, the trans attendees may form their own discussions too. It's just that the likelihood is an LGB group will be accepting of trans people, and it's a darn sight better than trying to arrange a very small, trans-only society at a university.

[Icephoenyx]

We may be stronger in numbers when we get together, but when we stand with GLB's there is never enough of a distinction b/w the GLBs and the T, so the general public know that T's exist, but assume they are 'gay' too.

Chrissi

[Sinnyo]

We may be stronger in numbers when we get together, but when we stand with GLB's there is never enough of a distinction b/w the GLBs and the T, so the general public know that T's exist, but assume they are 'gay' too.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, and is true for many.

I think the point that "we get beaten up by the same people" stands true there. Whether singled out as trans or as LGBT.. we're sadly at risk of some pretty phobic abuse. Many people are now far more accepting of homosexual people than transsexuals.. so hopefully that'll help?

To be honest, I'm lost in this debate. I guess that in the end, people shouldn't feel obliged to join LGBT if they're not homo- or bisexual. LGBT groups do not seem to 'steal' resources from trans-specific groups in my limited experience, so I believe they're doing more good than harm.

[Izumi]

I disagree that T should be part of LGB.  I dont know if its the same for other TS out their but i have always known and still tried to live a normal life in terms of the sex my family believed me to be, however in the long run i could not and transitioned.  LGB might be genetically imprinted, but doesnt effect your outward life, however being TS does.  Notice i said TS not TG, which i also believe should be separate from TG.

As more research is being done it points to TS being caused by genetics or birth defect.  This means we really have no choice in how we are, its like being born with a defect like blindness, you have to overcome it to move forward.  A lot of people believe just because you pick when you transition that being T is a choice like LGB, this is not the case.  Just because you have cancer and choose not to treat it doesnt mean it wont kill you eventually.   I was born TS, i will overcome it through therapy, drugs, surgery, and eventually live a normal life.  As more research is done we see being TS is nothing you can choose to be.  Although, just like in the LGB community their are some posers.

So with the following in mind:
  TS linked to genetics
  TS not a choice
  TS requiring extensive therapy both drug and psych.
  TS government having a legal system in place to change birth sex
  TS tax code in the US acknowledging that TS medical expenses are required and therefore deductible

How can we say that LGB is anywhere near the same as T? If your gay your still a gay man, if your lesbian your still a lesbian woman.... you are still who you always are in the outside world no matter what, however, if your TS, you have to put on an act to survive.  I believe because T is a part of LGB that is why we are not allowed to marry or any other privileges given to normal people and intersex.

sorry for the rant.

[Sinnyo]

Good points all, Izumi, but I still believe that many of the struggles faced by LGB people have parallels in T life too. Fundamental to all is the pressure to be ourselves, and both camps benefit from counselling and support in that regard even if only the T folks require medical help. The transgender struggle is one of outward appearance as you say, but as I've reflected with gay friends of mine, there is still a social weight placed on pronouns in their lives too. There's the pressure behind assuming that you're in a male/female couple, and that your partner will not end up being who your parents might have imagined.

.. but that's a pretty weak point for me to make. ;P

  TS linked to genetics
  TS not a choice
  TS requiring extensive therapy both drug and psych.
  TS government having a legal system in place to change birth sex

These four all seem to apply to LGB folks, though. Some do require therapy, although the cultural acceptance of homo- and bisexual people does presumably mean there are now fewer risks to mental health, such as from having to hide your true feelings. It's easier to be a gay person now, and LGBT pride has helped with that. As for governments and legalities.. civil partnerships and marriage, anyone?

[Izumi]

You bring up some interesting points but i still disagree, i think the fact that T issues are bundled in with LGB issues is why a lot of legislation doesnt go through.  Legalizing something for T means legalizing it for all, and also not means not for all, its a double edged sword so to speak.  Imagine if T was a separate entity in itself, and we want rights for T only, the argument could easily be won in court and here is why:

Current law states that the federal definition of marriage is between a man and a woman.  Well, then the T community would put a challenge on the term man and woman.  There is no definition of man or woman other genetics, but it can be disputed easily if you throw intersex into the ring.  For example, a XXY woman can marry then why not XY Transwoman?  They both have a Y chromosome dont they?  Also an XXY woman can marry a woman or man depending on what their parents put on their birth certificate, thereby nullifying genetics as form of sexual identification.  If you combine that with all the other problems and ambiguities caused in conception and birth of children you come to the conclusion that sex is actually what you legally describe yourself to be federal and state.  Since TS legally change their sex the marriage law forbidding gay marriage should not apply, i mean why should it when the federal and state governments sign off on the change to their records? 

So a court case stating TS should be allowed to legally marry the opposite sex comes to any court on its own, will most likely pass, but because its bundled with LGB issues, legalizing it means legalizing same sex marriage which gets pressure from the public religious groups to deny it.  So by default T gets taken down even though our circumstances are different.  Not to mention the fact that many LG part of LGBT dont like T for one reason or another.   

[tekla]

It really has more do to with the notion that all of those groups had a common community in being gender transgressors in some way.

[Izumi]

There has only been one case of this. It's hardly setting a worldwide precedent.

Just because it isnt public doesnt mean it doesnt exist, with the complexities of birth the way it is, children are born "different" everyday, some GG women are born with a penis and are not XXY but may suffer from birth defects, some have no vagina at all, some boys suffer the same way.  My point is that perceptive sex when born and actual sex is different and a procedure should be in place to say, Yes i figured it out, officially I am this or that, and everyone treat me as such.  I think the current procedure that TS people have to go through is good enough,  therapy, HRT, 1 yr full time life, and SRS. 

No one can ask the baby what it is, its an assumption based on facts presented to the parents, its possible that they are wrong, and in a lot of places they are, for example boys born with certain conditions are announced and treated like girls until puberty when they finally realize what they are.  Its not fair imo that what is decided without your consent has such lasting impact on your life. 

Not XX and not XY   one in 1,666 births
Klinefelter (XXY)   one in 1,000 births
Androgen insensitivity syndrome   one in 13,000 births
Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome   one in 130,000 births
Classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia   one in 13,000 births
Late onset adrenal hyperplasia   one in 66 individuals
Vaginal agenesis   one in 6,000 births
Ovotestes   one in 83,000 births
Idiopathic (no discernable medical cause)   one in 110,000 births
Iatrogenic (caused by medical treatment, for instance progestin administered to pregnant mother)   no estimate
5 alpha reductase deficiency   no estimate
Mixed gonadal dysgenesis   no estimate
Complete gonadal dysgenesis   one in 150,000 births
Hypospadias (urethral opening in perineum or along penile shaft)   one in 2,000 births
Hypospadias (urethral opening between corona and tip of glans penis)   one in 770 births
Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female   one in 100 births
Total number of people receiving surgery to "normalize" genital appearance   one or two in 1,000 births

As you can see, it happens even though its not public.   Their is a lot of people  "different" out there, TS imo is more in line with intersex then it is with LGB. 

My point is with layers and layers of overwhelming facts, if TS detached from being associated with LGB, then we would probably already have the structure in place to give us 100% the rights of the gender we truly are, instead of feeling the political backlash dealing with gay/lesbian marriage and civil unions.

[Asfsd4214]

Current law states that the federal definition of marriage is between a man and a woman.  Well, then the T community would put a challenge on the term man and woman.  There is no definition of man or woman other genetics, but it can be disputed easily if you throw intersex into the ring. 

Actually the laws of virtually every place I have ever seen define it by genitals, not chromosomes.

Also any chromosome arrangement with the presence of a Y is generally considered to be male.

Also the laws against gay marriage in fact generally do not apply once a legal change of sex has been recorded (assuming it's between a legal female and male).

[April Dawne]

I too feel that the T belongs in the group, and to exclude them is wrong and somewhat ignorant. Anyone who lives outside the accepted gender norms, whether they be gay, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual, androgynous, drag, etc. are in one way or another "gender variant". To not include one part of a group is like denying that your arm exists.

We all face very similar problems; we all risk being discriminated against, bashed, abused, raped, beaten, and even killed for our "gender variance." So why the hell should we be fighting amongst ourselves over such inconsequential differences when there is a larger battle to be fought that we can all benefit from in the end?

Shouldn't we just stop drawing LINES to separate ourselves from each other, stop labeling and categorizing each other, and just ACCEPT and LOVE each other as the thinking feeling HUMAN BEINGS we all are? There is great wisdom in the saying "United we stand, Divided we fall."

~April

[tekla]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend
    Arab proverb


Also the laws against gay marriage in fact generally do not apply once a legal change of sex has been recorded (assuming it's between a legal female and male).

Actually, any contract entered into in 'good faith' is valid.  California might have 'outlawed' gay marriage, but those marriages done in SF during the Winter of Love, as well as those done after the Supreme Court decision, but before the vote, are all valid and binding.

[Izumi]

Also the laws against gay marriage in fact generally do not apply once a legal change of sex has been recorded (assuming it's between a legal female and male).

this was not the case in Christie Lee Littleton's case, which is still being used in making decisions for other TS marriage based cases. 


Post Merge: July 08, 2010, 11:36:04 AM

I too feel that the T belongs in the group, and to exclude them is wrong and somewhat ignorant. Anyone who lives outside the accepted gender norms, whether they be gay, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual, androgynous, drag, etc. are in one way or another "gender variant". To not include one part of a group is like denying that your arm exists.

What about the people that dont feel they belong in that group? What about the fact that some gay/lesbians dont like TS people for one reason or another and have animosity towards them.  I have talked to lots of TS friends that call a LGBT hotline for consultation and help only to get a hostile response or someone that just doesnt know what to do with them or just doesnt care. 

The way i see it, i was born with a defect, just like someone who was born blind or deaf, or any other mental/physiological difference.  A symptom of that is depression, treatment involves self esteem and self image, just like someone who is blind can live a normal life so too can someone who is TS.  You dont see parades and gathering of groups that are one birth defect gathering with a different birth defect, because i think if given the choice almost all would just like to be normal human beings, i know i do, I dont want to be this way and in fact i HATE it, but this way is the only way i can live.  As a man i was a complete failure for years and i didnt understand why, after i went full time my life is perfect, things make sense and life is harder, but living is way easier and stress free.

So why is it so important to be a part of LGB?  Is it because we dont think we can get things done on our own? I think being a minority has advantages.  Giving equality to a small group rather then a huge swath of a population is less threatening to a lot of people, if you base those rights to facts.  You have to remember forcing change often times leads to more anger and hatred, and that gradual change might lead to better results and more comfort for everyone.  Let me give you this example:

What if you made a friend after you went full time, the friend didnt know your past, and you are friends for years, you shared many a happy time, that person is married to someone in power or is someone in power.  Later on they discover that you are TS.  Would this person's views on TS have been changed, yes, will that person make decisions based on your friendship in matters relating to TS issues, yes.  Not to mention the fact that becoming friends with that person makes you friends with a lot of their friends and is a ripple effect. 

There is a  lot of fear with TS and LGB in general is due to people turning on the TV and seeing weirdness.  I have seen people do things in parades that just sicken me sometimes, and instead of uniting we divide, i know if i dont want to be associated with those people, neither does a lot of others.  I dont know about everyone else who is TS like me, but i just want a normal life, you know, the house, the adopted kids, the picket fence, the dog, the car, and a nice spouse, i am not like the people portrayed on TV, but i find that things like that do more damage then good, which is why i believe TS should be apart from LGB and even TG, if assimilation into the norm is what we are after.

I dont mean to offend in my way of thinking, I am just putting things out there, many people have posted very intelligent answers but know that unity is not always a good thing, typically coming together can mean getting things done, however in the case of lemmings it means if one falls they all fall, and it is my belief the TS community is strong enough on its own to get things done, but if you want to join with someone, join with intersex as they have more in common.

[Miniar]

"You" can choose not to involve yourself with the GLBT.
"You" can choose to start a "T only" movement.

The rest of us that are happy being with the GLB bunch, for any number of reasons, can choose to hang with them.

Honestly, I wouldn't trade the strong support I got amongst my GLBT organization for anything.

[Izumi]

"You" can choose not to involve yourself with the GLBT.
"You" can choose to start a "T only" movement.

The rest of us that are happy being with the GLB bunch, for any number of reasons, can choose to hang with them.

Honestly, I wouldn't trade the strong support I got amongst my GLBT organization for anything.

Can i ask what kind of support you got? what have they done for you specifically?  I am not being hostile i just want to know how they helped, because i got none.  I did meet nice gay / lesbian / Bi, but they were just people i met not at some LGBT function or anything.
Post Merge: July 08, 2010, 11:18:16 AM

Because no sandwich is complete without tomato?

As long as their is a B in there for bacon i am happy.

[Rosa]

I had an intersex acquaintance that was upset that "I" was often left off of LGBT.  Now I am seeing LGBTI more often, but it is still not common. 

I have had several gay friends think that bisexuals are just confused - there are stereotypes and prejudices to overcome even within the LGB community. 

I see the point that grouping T with LGB mixes gender and sexual orientation, but on the other hand, there are a lot of commonalities as well and there is more strength if both communities group together.  The latter just means that there must be adequate education both within and without the LGBTI community. 

[Miniar]

Can i ask what kind of support you got? what have they done for you specifically?  I am not being hostile i just want to know how they helped, because i got none.  I did meet nice gay / lesbian / Bi, but they were just people i met not at some LGBT function or anything.

The most important thing they've done for me, as an individual, is when the social worker working for the Icelandic GLBT organization called Samtökin 78 was the person which was able to tell me who to contact to start transition. She even met with me face to face for a coffee to make sure I had all the information available.

Other than that "for me specifically" thing, S78 have a place where people can meet up and do stuff. They host a monthly trans-meeting, providing the meeting with not only location, but drinks (coffee mostly) and such as well.
They also allocate a portion of their income to fund trans-folk to come to the annual trans-groups organizational meeting where "management" of the sub-group is voted for and such.
They also help make Transsexuals more visible with Pride, making a point to offer trans-folk the option to nominate their representative as a "speaker" at the end of the march, giving the T of the GLBT equation an equal opportunity and time allocated, to speak out.

[Izumi]

The most important thing they've done for me, as an individual, is when the social worker working for the Icelandic GLBT organization called Samtökin 78 was the person which was able to tell me who to contact to start transition. She even met with me face to face for a coffee to make sure I had all the information available.

Other than that "for me specifically" thing, S78 have a place where people can meet up and do stuff. They host a monthly trans-meeting, providing the meeting with not only location, but drinks (coffee mostly) and such as well.
They also allocate a portion of their income to fund trans-folk to come to the annual trans-groups organizational meeting where "management" of the sub-group is voted for and such.
They also help make Transsexuals more visible with Pride, making a point to offer trans-folk the option to nominate their representative as a "speaker" at the end of the march, giving the T of the GLBT equation an equal opportunity and time allocated, to speak out.

More then i got or my friends.  Pretty much on your own in a lot of places, my therapist actually holds monthly gatherings for her clients, which is a nice place to meet.  I guess its different where you go, but like i said people are what make a difference if you have people willing to help that is nice but i have to ask one thing.....

Are you really proud to be TS? Its something i cant grasp, because i hate being TS, people talk about the TS lifestyle i dont know what they mean, its not anymore exciting or FUN its no different from what a normal Female(MTF) or Male (FTM) does... 

I mean given the choice wouldn't you rather have just been  born a GG guy or girl and not had that part that makes you TS? I dont understand how people can be proud to be something that gives them pain.   Someone asked me once if i could take a pill that would make me a normal guy instead of MTF, and i would be able to feel and be a normal guy would i take it?  I said YES, its a no brainer, I would give anything to not have to go through all this, i do it only because i have to and life makes sense when I am a woman, I dont have the mentality to be a man, i tried, i suck at it, i have to change all my initial ways i react to things and be more an actor playing a part rather then just living my life.  Are you the same? or am i just unique in that....?

[Alyssa M.]

"... are you proud of being TS? ... I dont understand how people can be proud to be something that gives them pain."

The problem is that "pride" has many different meanings. I'm not "proud" in the sense that I'm "proud" of my high score on MarioCart or the gold star my kindergarten teacher gave me for the picture I drew of a cat or whatever. I'm not "proud" in the sense that I'm proud of my puppy for learning how not to pee on the kitchen floor, or in the sense that I'm proud of the noble men and women overseas defending my Freedom from the forces of Evil, or in the sense that I'm proud to be a Texan.*

I'm also not proud in the sense of committing the cardinal sin of placing myself above others; at least, not in any way that relates to my trans status.

I'm very definitely proud of being trans in the sense that I'm not the slightest bit ashamed, and that I don't see myself as any less fully human, and that, except for not wanting to deal with people's ignorance and bigotry, I don't care to hide from the fact that I'm trans nor to hide it from others, however painful it might have been or might continue to be. And I'm quite proud that I managed to eventually screw up the will and determination and strength of character to stand up to all the many societal forces acting against my desire to transition.

What I don't get is why anyone would be proud of anything that didn't ever cause them pain or hardship. What's to be proud of?





*I'm actually from Massachusetts; Texas is one of my least favorite states. I don't have a puppy or play MarioCart either. I was being rhetorical.

[cynthialee]

I am proud of myself for choosing transition over death. I am proud of the acomplishments in my transition to date.
It takes alot of integrity to live true to self when all of society seems hell bent on grinding us to the ground and erasing our existance.
I am a proud TS for these reasons.