Transphobia in a Trans Person

[Omika]

I can't be around groups of transgendered people, unless they are not openly TG and pass extremely well (in appearance and voice).  I hold other transpeople to the same aesthetic standards I hold myself to and have strived to achieve without spending money on cosmetic surgery.  I freak out if I'm around "out" trans people.  I literally start to panic and need to get away immediately.

I am terrified of being labeled Trans-anything.  I refuse to acknowledge I was ever anything but a woman, because in my mind, this is the truth, I never have been anything but.  My therapist says I have transphobia for "whatever reason".  I explain to her why, because I'm afraid of being outed or suspected through association.  She just nods.

There is a lot of guilt, here.  I feel guilty for being this way, for being so unsupportive and judgemental.  I'm a year away from surgery, nearly three years past the original transition date.  She says I'm way overdue for surgery, psychologically, and that my GID is "severe".

I am not asking for advice, I am just seeing if anyone else feels or has felt the same way before.  I have nightmares about having male genitals, about being stuck this way, as some kind of mix-gendered mutant.  I am an extremely angry, stressed, anxious person.  I work at a small job I love.  I have a great future.  I am one year away from my BA degree and a fulfilling job.  Yet I feel like I am about to come apart at the seams because the dysphoria is getting so bad.  It's manifesting as a hatred for my body, for the male gender, and for anyone who openly identifies as TG or refuses to work within a binary gender system.

It isn't healthy.  I know that.  I just don't know how to control my emotions in this regard.

[Hermione01]

Why would you associate with anyone you dislike? Why does it matter if they're trans or not, if you don't like them, don't go near them.
Who says you have to be around transgender people? I find it confusing to start a topic like this on a 'transgender forum'. 
I understand you hate your body and this manifests itself into hating other open trans people, don't need a psychology degree to work that out, there is only one answer and that is to stay away from it.

[Omika]

Who says you have to be around transgender people? I find it confusing to start a topic like this on a 'transgender forum'. 

Because of the guilt I mentioned.

[Silver]

Good luck then?

[Sinnyo]

You use some pretty strong phrases in there to which I have a pretty repellent attitude myself. It sounds like you're boxing things up too much; I can understand wanting to avoid other TG people in case you feared being outed, but it also sounds like they remind you of your own worries, and that should not excuse this level of negativity. I would speak to a different counsellor about that if your problems aren't being addressed, otherwise you're really going to struggle in life. It's hard enough being uncomfortable with your own body, let alone all men and trans folks.

Practice a little empathy? That may help temper those emotions.

[tekla]

People hate most in others what they hate most in themselves.  Clear up your problems with yourself and you'll find you have no problems with others.

[cynthialee]

People hate most in others what they hate most in themselves.  Clear up your problems with yourself and you'll find you have no problems with others.

This!

[rejennyrated]

People hate most in others what they hate most in themselves.  Clear up your problems with yourself and you'll find you have no problems with others.

This!

Amen!

I know I pass pretty well 100% but actually ironically I mostly won't associate with trans people in stealth because a.) after 26 years of successful postop life I now find that attitude to be mildly morally repugnant and rather insulting, and b.) I have definite knowledge that almost all of those I know of who IMAGINE that they are in stealth do not pass nearly as well as they think! You wouldn't believe the number of times someone cis has said to me "of course we all know about xxx but we can't talk to him/her because she thinks we don't realise." That just make us all look like paranoid idiots! So seriously please don't go there folks.

You don't have to advertise what you are. I don't often tell people unless there is a reason, but i don't actively conceal either. Fact is most of the few people who do know about me tell me that very few, if any of those who I haven't told ever have even the slightest suspicion. But there is a world of difference between letting people assume what the want to assume, and actively trying to mislead them.

Do the former, as I do, and you will mostly get away with it. Do the latter and people get irritated by the fact that they feel you are trying to put one over on them, and then as a result they will often TELL everyone behind your back in revenge. So even if you think you are in stealth, the fact is it only takes one person to clock you and then the risk is that you reach a point where only person who doesn't know that you are not in stealth becomes you.

You may think I'm making this up, but I assure you I am not. I have seen it happen.

[Omika]

Amen!

I know I pass pretty well 100% but actually ironically I mostly won't associate with trans people in stealth because a.) after 26 years of successful postop life I now find that attitude to be mildly morally repugnant and rather insulting, and b.) I have definite knowledge that almost all of those I know of who IMAGINE that they are in stealth do not pass nearly as well as they think! You wouldn't believe the number of times someone cis has said to me "of course we all know about xxx but we can't talk to him/her because she thinks we don't realise." That just make us all look like paranoid idiots! So seriously please don't go there folks.

You don't have to advertise what you are. I don't often tell people unless there is a reason, but i don't actively conceal either. Fact is most of the few people who do know about me tell me that very few, if any of those who I haven't told ever have even the slightest suspicion. But there is a world of difference between letting people assume what the want to assume, and actively trying to mislead them.

Do the former, as I do, and you will mostly get away with it. Do the latter and people get irritated by the fact that they feel you are trying to put one over on them, and then as a result they will often TELL everyone behind your back in revenge. So even if you think you are in stealth, the fact is it only takes one person to clock you and then the risk is that you reach a point where only person who doesn't know that you are not in stealth becomes you.

You may think I'm making this up, but I assure you I am not. I have seen it happen.

It took me two years to build up the courage to actually go out into the light of day without being in constant, mortal fear.  The fear is still there, just muted, but it's there.  I do pass, but it's been a very uphill battle to get myself to accept that.  This is not the issue.

I had a transgendered activist on my university campus "ask a personal question" once, and he was met with the appropriate "no, and you're extremely rude for asking or assuming, that makes me feel really ->-bleeped-<-ty about my appearance."  He backed off and was very sorry.  That's the only time it's ever happened (of course there was all that crap I endured while in SF, but that's SF).  Most people find me quite striking.  So while I appreciate your attempt at getting me to fall in line with the "us" by making me scared to go outside again, I'm really just trying to find someone who feels the same way I do, or has before.

And no, I don't think you're making it up.  I've seen people that delusional before.

[rejennyrated]

It took me two years to build up the courage to actually go out into the light of day without being in constant, mortal fear.  The fear is still there, just muted, but it's there.  I do pass, but it's been a very uphill battle to get myself to accept that.  This is not the issue.

I had a transgendered activist on my university campus "ask a personal question" once, and he was met with the appropriate "no, and you're extremely rude for asking or assuming, that makes me feel really ->-bleeped-<-ty about my appearance."  He backed off and was very sorry.  That's the only time it's ever happened (of course there was all that crap I endured while in SF, but that's SF).  Most people find me quite striking.  So while I appreciate your attempt at getting me to fall in line with the "us" by making me scared to go outside again, I'm really just trying to find someone who feels the same way I do, or has before.

And no, I don't think you're making it up.  I've seen people that delusional before.

I assure you nothing is further from my mind or my desire than to make you feel "scared to go outside"

I also have no idea who "US" is - I'm not hooked in to some sort of worldwide trans cabal like a sort of iluminati if that is what you mean. Yes I have a few trans friends, and because I've been around on the fringes of the trans world for over 30 years I have seen a few things, but that is all.

My point is actually 100% the reverse. It is that IF you want people not to notice you then first you have to become comfortable to be seen for what you are.

When you do that, in my experience, you will find that people paradoxically stop noticing you.

I pass mainly because I don't care whether I do or not, and so I am relaxed, and so 99 time out of 100 (I would say 100 out of 100 but that would be cocky) people pick up the vibes that I am cool and they accept me at face value.

It's like when you have done a crime and are trying to slip away. Worst thing you can do is run. First thing they teach you in spy school. If you want to go unnoticed learn how to appear relaxed and natural.

People who are trying to be in stealth generally aren't. Now I'm sorry if that makes you afraid. That isn't my desire at all, but it is the truth as I see it.

My desire is that you find some peace of mind. My aim is/was to show you another way to look at this, but if it doesn't help then I will happily leave it there.

Good Luck.

[Omika]

I assure you nothing is further from my mind or my desire than to make you feel "scared to go outside"

I also have no idea who "US" is - I'm not hooked in to some sort of worldwide trans cabal like a sort of iluminati if that is what you mean. Yes I have a few trans friends, and because I've been around on the fringes of the trans world for over 30 years I have seen a few things, but that is all.

My point is actually 100% the reverse. It is that IF you want people not to notice you then first you have to become comfortable to be seen for what you are.

When you do that, in my experience, you will find that people paradoxically stop noticing you.

I pass mainly because I don't care whether I do or not, and so I am relaxed, and so 99 time out of 100 (I would say 100 out of 100 but that would be cocky) people pick up the vibes that I am cool and they accept me at face value.

It's like when you have done a crime and are trying to slip away. Worst thing you can do is run. First thing they teach you in spy school. If you want to go unnoticed learn how to appear relaxed and natural.

People who are trying to be in stealth generally aren't. Now I'm sorry if that makes you afraid. That isn't my desire at all, but it is the truth as I see it.

My desire is that you find some peace of mind. My aim is/was to show you another way to look at this, bit if it doesn't help then I will leave it there.

Good Luck.

I feel like I have reached that point of relaxation with others, though.  I have casual conversations with people, I laugh, I make people laugh, I smile, I don't bat an eye or act like a thief in the night.  I used to, but now it's all pretty much okay.  Deep down I just have that insecurity about my height and some parts of my appearance, like any other woman does now and then.  It comes and goes with mood.

The "us" is the trans "community" I've seen on campuses and in SF that comes together (god bless them for doing so, some of them have nowhere else to go) and this is what I have the problem with... I want to help, so badly, and I want to provide advice, guidance, and support.  Yet every time I get close to involved I find myself repelled by people's attitudes, or weird viewpoints on their own transition being some kind of spiritual experience that needs no scientific explanation (good luck getting the rest of the world to take this condition seriously with that approach).  I never meet someone else in my shoes (though I'd love to) who feels this is a medical condition, this is very private, and this is something you just don't share with most people. 

So you get voice therapy and you struggle and practice for as long as it takes.  My voice is my pride and joy, it's perfect, I couldn't ask for more.  Considering what it was before, I'm constantly amazed at my own ability to completely change it.  It's why when I hear a trans person with some freaky androgynous, obvious voice I get really weirded out and a little appalled, like, "Hey, I did it, I struggled with it and cried over it... how can you do this to yourself?  I know you can do it too!"  I worked the crap job at night on weekends in the early days, and went to school full-time, I endured the harassment and judgement.  I got beyond it, moved around, let some things settle. I'm in a good place, after a lot of effort.  Then these people come around, open and obvious and in total defiance of even trying to pass perfectly well, and it's like they just crap all over everything I've struggled to achieve, and then have the audacity to tell me I'm wrong, I'm bad, I'm negative, and I'm insulting because I just want to live in peace, and to feel good about myself.

They judge me, like the world judges them.  They are angry at me for "hiding", I am angry at them for trying to expose me and guilt-trip me.  This is the dilemma.

[rejennyrated]

I feel like I have reached that point of relaxation with others, though.  I have casual conversations with people, I laugh, I make people laugh, I smile, I don't bat an eye or act like a thief in the night.  I used to, but now it's all pretty much okay.  Deep down I just have that insecurity about my height and some parts of my appearance, like any other woman does now and then.  It comes and goes with mood.

The "us" is the trans "community" I've seen on campuses and in SF that comes together (god bless them for doing so, some of them have nowhere else to go) and this is what I have the problem with... I want to help, so badly, and I want to provide advice, guidance, and support.  Yet every time I get close to involved I find myself repelled by people's attitudes, or weird viewpoints on their own transition being some kind of spiritual experience that needs no scientific explanation (good luck getting the rest of the world to take this condition seriously with that approach).  I never meet someone else in my shoes (though I'd love to) who feels this is a medical condition, this is very private, and this is something you just don't share with most people. 

So you get voice therapy and you struggle and practice for as long as it takes.  My voice is my pride and joy, it's perfect, I couldn't ask for more.  Considering what it was before, I'm constantly amazed at my own ability to completely change it.  It's why when I hear a trans person with some freaky androgynous, obvious voice I get really weirded out and a little appalled, like, "Hey, I did it, I struggled with it and cried over it... how can you do this to yourself?  I know you can do it too!"  I worked the crap job at night on weekends in the early days, and went to school full-time, I endured the harassment and judgement.  I got beyond it, moved around, let some things settle. I'm in a good place, after a lot of effort.  Then these people come around, open and obvious and in total defiance of even trying to pass perfectly well, and it's like they just crap all over everything I've struggled to achieve, and then have the audacity to tell me I'm wrong, I'm bad, I'm negative, and I'm insulting because I just want to live in peace, and to feel good about myself.

They judge me, like the world judges them.  They are angry at me for "hiding", I am angry at them for trying to expose me and guilt-trip me.  This is the dilemma.

Well I'm Androgen Insensitive - my voice is as good as it gets - Heck I sing opera as a contralto and I never needed to change it.

My views on transition are not that relevant, because a.) I originally transitioned aged 5 and so grew up mostly as a girl and b.) I had my medical procedures a long time ago (26 years)

I agree that this IS a medical condition, and NOT a psychological condition. I also agree that in an ideal world it is a private thing.

BUT

In the real world I choose to risk sacrificing that anonymity in order to help others, as indeed you claim to want to do.

Problem is you cant make an ommlette with out breaking eggs, and by extension you cant help people by resenting the fact that they are different to you, and perhaps less fortunate, or indeed may have worked less hard.

A few weeks ago I walked around for a week in Italy, on the arm of a retired gender psychiatrist. There really aren't that many tanswomen who can have done that. Out of professional interest he inevitably was watching for any signs that anyone had clocked me, particularly amongst his friends who all know what he used to do. At the end of the week he complimented me that not one single person had give me a second look or indeed had any suspicions as too why I knew him.

My point is that you are making lots of assumptions, most of which are wrong. I don't go sharing my details with people willy nilly either. But I'm willing to take the risk in the service of the greater good - and I don't hate or mistrust other transpeople either. Nor do it criticise others who were less fortunate than me in appearance or voice (no silicone - all natural)

I wouldn't expose you, but i don't think that you or I have the right to tell someone else how they should lead their lives.

anyway - that's probably enough because I don't want this to turn into a silly passing contest! I'm too old to get into all that, but you do need to understand that you certainly AREN'T the only one out here who can cut it! Because I, and indeed many others do thank you.

I'll sign off now.

[Omika]

Well I'm Androgen Insensitive - my voice is as good as it gets - Heck I sing opera as a contralto and I never needed to change it.

My views on transition are not that relevant, because a.) I originally transitioned aged 5 and so grew up mostly as a girl and b.) I had my medical procedures a long time ago (26 years)

I agree that this IS a medical condition, and NOT a psychological condition. I also agree that in an ideal world it is a private thing.

BUT

In the real world I choose to risk sacrificing that anonymity in order to help others, as indeed you claim to want to do.

Problem is you cant make an ommlette with out breaking eggs, and by extension you cant help people by resenting the fact that they are different to you, and perhaps less fortunate, or indeed may have worked less hard.

A few weeks ago I walked around for a week in Italy, on the arm of a retired gender psychiatrist. There really aren't that many tanswomen who can have done that. Out of professional interest he inevitably was watching for any signs that anyone had clocked me, particularly amongst his friends who all know what he used to do. At the end of the week he complimented me that not one single person had give me a second look or indeed had any suspicions as too why I knew him.

My point is that you are making lots of assumptions, most of which are wrong. I don't go sharing my details with people willy nilly either. But I'm willing to take the risk in the service of the greater good - and I don't hate or mistrust other transpeople either. Nor do it criticise others who were less fortunate than me in appearance or voice (no silicone - all natural)

I wouldn't expose you, but i don't think that you or I have the right to tell someone else how they should lead their lives.

anyway - that's probably enough because I don't want this to turn into a silly passing contest! I'm too old to get into all that, but you do need to understand that you certainly AREN'T the only one out here who can cut it! Because I, and indeed many others do thank you.

I'll sign off now.

Thank you for talking to me!  I actually really enjoyed reading what you have to say.  I made an appointment with my therapist for tomorrow, I really need to see her... we kind of left our last session on a bad note (time ran out just as I was discovering a real anxiety I wanted to talk about).  So that kind of spurred all of this.

I know lots of others work harder than I do, and do just fine... I just wish I could meet them.  That's the irony of it, though, because if they're like me, they wouldn't ever make themselves known.

[tekla]

I want to help, so badly, and I want to provide advice, guidance, and support.

I call shenanigans.  You don't want to do anything of the sort.  You want to lecture people and have them conform their thoughts to yours so they can be 'right thinking' like you are. 

I like the phrase, I hold other transpeople to the same aesthetic standards I hold myself to, as pretty much proof of that.  You can set whatever standard you want for yourself.  Beyond that, what?  And with all your bitchin about SF, I guess that in the real world you ain't passing nearly as well as your doing back in Hooterville.  I mean really: Most people find me quite striking.  Did you take a poll at some point, or are you just guessing?  Is that striking as in 'stunning' or as in 'someone please strike that person with a heavy object?' 

Then these people come around, open and obvious and in total defiance of even trying to pass perfectly well, and it's like they just crap all over everything I've struggled to achieve
Oh that's terrible that other people just go out looking like ->-bleeped-<- just so that people will like you less.  The nerve!  We ought to just lock them up until they can achieve that standard of perfection, that will show 'em.

[Omika]

I want to help, so badly, and I want to provide advice, guidance, and support.

I call shenanigans.  You don't want to do anything of the sort.  You want to lecture people and have them conform their thoughts to yours so they can be 'right thinking' like you are. 

I like the phrase, I hold other transpeople to the same aesthetic standards I hold myself to, as pretty much proof of that.  You can set whatever standard you want for yourself.  Beyond that, what?  And with all your bitchin about SF, I guess that in the real world you ain't passing nearly as well as your doing back in Hooterville.  I mean really: Most people find me quite striking.  Did you take a poll at some point, or are you just guessing?  Is that striking as in 'stunning' or as in 'someone please strike that person with a heavy object?' 

Then these people come around, open and obvious and in total defiance of even trying to pass perfectly well, and it's like they just crap all over everything I've struggled to achieve
Oh that's terrible that other people just go out looking like ->-bleeped-<- just so that people will like you less.  The nerve!  We ought to just lock them up until they can achieve that standard of perfection, that will show 'em.

I had no idea SF was the "real world".  I'm pretty sure it's a very unique place, full of very "unique" people who, despite pompously touting their fine city as a place of absolute enlightenment and understanding, are generally some of the most caustic, hateful, judgemental, loud, insecure, angry individuals I've ever had the displeasure of running into.  All I ever did in that place was try to keep my head down.  Failed experiment.  Meanest people I've ever met in my life are from that area.

Striking, as in, that's the word a lot of people (family, friends, etc.) have used to describe me, as in "stunning", yes, but I generally disagree.  It's about all I've got.  Please don't take it from me.

How is convincing people to take better care of themselves, helping them find a good voice coach, and helping them fit into society at large better not count as helping people?  That's all I'd ever want to do.  I don't want to fundamentally change who they are, I want to explain to them why it is you have to present well to get a decent-paying job, essentially.

I don't want to lock anyone up, I just want them to help themselves out a little.  I'm not unaware of my own insecurities and problems, that's why I made this post to begin with.  You can lay off the trigger finger a little bit, I'm not here to destroy anyone's life.  Please stop attacking me.

[Miniar]

How is convincing people to take better care of themselves, helping them find a good voice coach, and helping them fit into society at large better not count as helping people?  That's all I'd ever want to do.  I don't want to fundamentally change who they are, I want to explain to them why it is you have to present well to get a decent-paying job, essentially.

Because they have to do what's right by them, just like you have to do what's right by you.

Me being out and open is not a reflection of your work, it doesn't demean your work, it doesn't mean you'll pass "less", it means that being out and open is the right thing for me to do in my transition.

My transition.
Not yours.

By holding other transitioners to "your" standards you may quite literally be treating them utterly wrong.

Not everyone wants the same thing.

You do not help someone by giving them something they don't want, or isn't right for them.
You do not help someone by telling them what to strive for, or what they need, without regards to their input.
You do not help anyone, not even yourself, by holding (forcing) other people to the standards you have decided on for yourself.

It's just not right to think that other people doing what's right by them means that they are in some way making little of what you have done for you.
Other people deciding to be themselves without fear, even if that negatively affects their passing, doesn't mean anything about your transition.

If you really want to help people, you got to start with learning that simple fact that other people's transition, and other people's lives, are theirs, not yours, and that you can not help them with their transition without letting them do what's right for them without judgement.

[Dana Lane]

At least you are being honest about being transphobic but you really should work on that. Like it or not you are just like a lot of people here who were born with the wrong body parts. Even though you are admitting you have this problem it doesn't sound like you really want to fix it. So if you were to come across me one day you would end up running away in a panic. Well, that doesn't make me feel very well now does it?

Phobias are bad, period but they can be treated.

[Omika]

Great advice, and I understand.  "Phobic" might not have been the best word choice, and Dana, I wouldn't run away from you in a panic. 

I get annoyed when people refuse to be the best they can be and then complain about why people don't promote them or hire them, or even like them very much.  I just catch this attitude a lot from some "out" trans people I've met in the past, and it's tiresome.  I just don't want to be around them.  Yes, your life is your life, but your life makes me feel bad, and I wish you could just get it together, etc.

Anyways, I just had an emergency session with my therapist, and it's all good now.  Anxiety gone!

[Dana Lane]

Anxiety sucks! I had a panic attack 6 years ago then had Anxiety Disorder 24/7 since. I have brain glue for that, though.

[Miniar]

Letting other people's lives make you feel good or bad isn't really the best way to live.