transguys suffering hair loss

[outer_heavon]

Hey guys, I'm new here. I've been taking testosterone since then age of 19 years old, i'm 23 now and over the last year in particular i have been really thinning on top and hairline is receding/thinning too.

I wanted to start this topic to see how many other guys are getting hairloss from testosterone as well. I was reading over some of the older posts about hairloss and how it may differ for transsexual men as opposed to cisgendered males.

I've been doing vast research into this for awhile and i want to share some of my theories about why transsexual men seem to go bald much younger and often occurs more so in transsexual males then cisgendered males.

From a genetics point of view transsexual men should be less likely to go bald due to the fact we typically have two XX chromosomes and since the baldness gene is thought to be recessive and carried on the X chromosome. Our other remaining X chromosome should copy out the recessive gene and dominant it. (this is why having two XX chromosomes is a good thing with regard to undesirable recessive genes)

This means that in order for a transsexual male to go bald he would need to have the baldness gene carried twice on both his X chromosomes.

However despite this from my experiences transsexual males often go bald much younger then cisgendered guys do and we have a high occurrence of it. Many transsexual males start balding after the 4 year mark. It is also worth mentioning here that the baldness gene hasn't been properly mapped and is only thought to be recessive.

DHT is the hormone responsible for causing baldness as it converts testosterone to DHT in the hair cells. The presence of DHT in the hair cells causes the bodies immune to attack the cell killing it for those of us genetically predisposed to balding.

There is more at play here then just chromosomes and genetics. I believe the reason transsexual males go bald is because of our high DHT levels. You see even for those cisgendered men who are not genetically predisposed to going bald will go bald regardless if DHT is high in the body. This is certainly true when bodybuilders take testosterone and go from having healthy hair to weak thinning hair. The extra testosterone and DHT triggers the onset of balding.

And why do transsexual males have high levels of DHT? Because DHT is the only hormone that can lower oestrogen levels and other female hormones. Testosterone alone does not suppress the ovaries or oestrogen levels, only DHT acts to lower oestrogen. So in theory when transsexual males take testosterone a lot of it is converted to DHT in order for the body to balance it's hormonal system. Your body is trying to counter this high oestrogen level by producing high amounts of DHT to lower it. In other words for those transsexual males who have not had their ovaries removed you may experience balding much earlier due to the body converting testosterone into DHT, which would not happen in cisgendered males because they do not have a high enough oestrogen level to upset the balance.

Whether you are genetically determined to go bald or not, if DHT is present in high amounts almost all humans will bald as a result.

For these reasons i believe transsexual males should have their ovaries removed instead of leaving them. For several reasons, the first being we have to inject so much testosterone to counter the oestrogen and this isn't healthy, and two because of DHT and 3 because the ovaries being left can cause problems later, such as cancers etc.

This is just my theory as to why transsexual males seem to have a high rate of baldness.

[Myself]

Actually, a lot of men start balding by puberty. I know plenty that at the age of 17-19 lost their sides and by 20+ they are really bald.

[Nimetön]

Hey guys, I'm new here. I've been taking testosterone since then age of 19 years old, i'm 23 now and over the last year in particular i have been really thinning on top and hairline is receding/thinning too.

That is not an wildly unusual time for a man to begin going bald.  Most of us have gray hairs and some receding hair by our thirties, though it is often is not noticeable to anyone but a barber.

Many transsexual males start balding after the 4 year mark.

Is there documented evidence of this?  I'd be very interested in reading this article.

From a genetics point of view transsexual men should be less likely to go bald due to the fact we typically have two XX chromosomes and since the baldness gene is thought to be recessive and carried on the X chromosome. Our other remaining X chromosome should copy out the recessive gene and dominant it. (this is why having two XX chromosomes is a good thing with regard to undesirable recessive genes)

This means that in order for a transsexual male to go bald he would need to have the baldness gene carried twice on both his X chromosomes.

There are several such genes, not all of which are X-linked, and not all of which have been identified.  Remember the awful rule of human cellular biology: anything could affect anything else and very often does.  Additionally, possible interactions with estrogen-activated pathways may also play a role in FTMs.

The likelihood that this will be empirically investigated in transmen in the foreseeable future is, of course, nil.  The cost of genetic engineering research is simply extraordinary; many of the fluids required as media are not synthesizable and must be extracted from such things as amniotic fluids of animals, and the people capable of withstanding the education needed for such research are extremely rare.  You should hear some of the crap that my friend Dr. K has to wade through just to install a single gene in a cell line...  Some true 'Tales from the Lab' come out of that building.

DHT is the hormone responsible for causing baldness as it converts testosterone to DHT in the hair cells. The presence of DHT in the hair cells causes the bodies immune to attack the cell killing it for those of us genetically predisposed to balding.

The hypothesis that alopecia androgenetica is an autoimmune process sounds very suspicious, to me.  I'll check with Dr. K, but I was under the impression that the process does not involve autoimmune responses.

You see even for those cisgendered men who are not genetically predisposed to going bald will go bald regardless if DHT is high in the body. This is certainly true when bodybuilders take testosterone and go from having healthy hair to weak thinning hair. The extra testosterone and DHT triggers the onset of balding.

These sentences seem to contradict each other; you stated that we will go bald regardless of DHT levels, then provide an example of baldness due to DHT levels.  Did you miss a qualifier in the first sentence?

I think that your hypothesis, what little I can glean from your post, lacks evidentiary support and may not consistent be with the known mechanisms of human biology.  If you could provide a study of this condition (which might be called alopecia pseudoandrogenetica, I suppose), we can proceed from there.  Otherwise, you might want to start a survey on the topic; I imagine that you could do so with very little funding through your local university or medical school, if you have academic standing, or you could search for medical researchers on the topic and propose the study to them.

That having been said, the idea that DHT levels in transmen are heightened would account for a great deal, and evidence of this would be easy to collect.  If you have some evidence of this, it could make for a very interesting hypothesis, once the biological mechanisms are properly sorted out.

- N

[Osiris]

Well on one hand ftm guys don't want too much DHT as they could go bald, but you have to remember that DHT also affects body hair, facial hair, muscle and skin density, bone density, DHT creams are also used to help increase the growth of the genitals for ftms. It's a very strong masculinizing component of testosterone and very helpful to guys trying to achieve a more masculine look.

Perhaps you'll find this video of interest-

[Nimetön]

Dr. K indicated to me that, while practically all developmental processes have an autoimmune component somewhere, DHT is not an immune trigger, merely a normal hormone in males; alopecia androgenetica is not an autoimmune condition.  DHT basically reduces the replacement rate of disconnected hairs, eventually to zero.  Also, localized DHT blocking, such as through creams, is a method that some hope will reduce hair loss, but he doesn't know how effective that is.

- N

[Vancha]

The question is, do trans men have higher DHT than cis males, and if so, why?  It may very well be causing higher rates of balding, plus most trans men seem quite a lot hairier -- and become hairier faster -- than most cis men.  So it is an interesting idea.  It may make me decide to ditch the internal female parts faster.

[Lachlann]

The question is, do trans men have higher DHT than cis males, and if so, why?  It may very well be causing higher rates of balding, plus most trans men seem quite a lot hairier -- and become hairier faster -- than most cis men.  So it is an interesting idea.  It may make me decide to ditch the internal female parts faster.

Because they're intentionally making you go through a fast puberty. If they wanted you to take years and years, they would be giving a different dosage.

Also, it probably has to do with your age. For the most part, it's based on genetics.

[outer_heavon]

I'm merely presenting a theory as to why transsexual males appear to have a high rate of baldness and a few of the reasons why. I don't pretend to be a doctor or claim what i have posted as an absolute. If you look at my original post i do say "theory" and "experience"

I read on one of the transsexual health websites that 50% of transsexual males go bald but i can't find the link to that article and can't say how legitimate it was.

When i was searching for transsexual males who had been on testosterone for longer then 4 years it seemed the majority of these men were going bald and no longer had healthy looking hair. As you should be aware there are no studies into this and no one can say exactly how many transsexual men will go bald or how many experience hair loss, although i believe in our community many transsexual males end up going completely bald and that is certainly true going by what i've experienced in our community and what i have observed.

People will say it is a case of genetics but i don't believe that is the sole reason. In the body building community it is believed that taking testosterone will trigger early onset of balding due to more testosterone being converted to DHT and that's what is seen in these guys who take massive levels of testosterone for that purpose, the reality being they go bald quicker and trigger male pattern.

With transsexual males we are already taking high amounts of testosterone in order to properly suppress the oestrogen levels and our ovaries. It is also known that only DHT acts to suppress oestrogen levels, it is NOT testosterone that does this!

So logically it can only be DHT suppressing our female hormone levels, meaning that much of our testosterone must be converted to DHT in order for this to happen.

Transsexual males also do appear to get very hairy bodies. This is certainly true in my case i am the hairiest male in my family and i am literally covered in body hair from DHT. I have seen this many times over with transsexual males. We are a very hairy bunch, but balding on top.

DHT is not actually a bad hormone, it's very potent and extremely useful. It is what makes our genitals grow and body hair etc. In the video one of you linked to this man took DHT cream and saw much genital growth happening, some months later he also triggered the onset of balding, which he later talks about. In some of his recent youtube posts his hair has thinned/receded. This could be a result of taking DHT cream or may have happened anyway.

Personally i do believe the problem for transsexual males here is DHT related and i believe it's because we take higher amounts of testosterone needed to suppress oestrogen levels. I believe this is unhealthy and causing the body to try and balance it's endocrine system by converting T to DHT.

I think that the ovaries should just be removed if you are concerned like i am. It's much better to have a balanced hormonal system and not need these huge amounts of testosterone in us.

[Lachlann]

I'm merely presenting a theory as to why transsexual males appear to have a high rate of baldness and a few of the reasons why.

How do you know it's a high rate, though? Many cisgender males experience hair loss in their twenties.

I read on one of the transsexual health websites that 50% of transsexual males go bald but i can't find the link to that article and can't say how legitimate it was.

I've read that article, but it doesn't give any real reasons as to why it's 50% within 10 years(which is an odd way to gauge something meant to be genetic.) If we're going by chromosomes, FTMs have less than 50% chance risk whereas cisgender males are 50%. You can find quite a few topics here on hair loss where it has been broken down to say we have less risk via chromosomes, but that doesn't insure that we wont go bald, just like it wont for a cisgender male.

I'm merely presenting a theory as to why transsexual males appear to have a high rate of baldness and a few of the reasons why.When i was searching for transsexual males who had been on testosterone for longer then 4 years it seemed the majority of these men were going bald and no longer had healthy looking hair.

OK, but do you know the extensive background of their family's genetics too?

I'm merely presenting a theory as to why transsexual males appear to have a high rate of baldness and a few of the reasons why.People will say it is a case of genetics but i don't believe that is the sole reason. In the body building community it is believed that taking testosterone will trigger early onset of balding due to more testosterone being converted to DHT and that's what is seen in these guys who take massive levels of testosterone for that purpose, the reality being they go bald quicker and trigger male pattern.

This isn't a very good example to use. Cisgender male bodybuilders already have a normal testosterone level, they're injecting more testosterone into their bodies and making it peak beyond the normal levels. A FTM is simply doing this to get a normal cisgender male level of testosterone and not as a way to use steroids.

I'm merely presenting a theory as to why transsexual males appear to have a high rate of baldness and a few of the reasons why.With transsexual males we are already taking high amounts of testosterone in order to properly suppress the oestrogen levels and our ovaries. It is also known that only DHT acts to suppress oestrogen levels, it is NOT testosterone that does this!

Hormone blockers can shut down the ovaries, you know.

I'm merely presenting a theory as to why transsexual males appear to have a high rate of baldness and a few of the reasons why.Transsexual males also do appear to get very hairy bodies. This is certainly true in my case i am the hairiest male in my family and i am literally covered in body hair from DHT. I have seen this many times over with transsexual males. We are a very hairy bunch, but balding on top.

I may have only been on T for about 6 months, but I'm really not all that hairy. Did my body hair increase? It did... but I'm still pretty fair haired on my body.

I think you're also taking for granted the variation that happens in families. The more people in your family, the more obvious the variation is.  While knowing your genetic history can give you an idea of how things might go, they're not something that's written in stone either. I have 7 brothers, and while they all look like they come from my family, they're all varied physically.

I'm merely presenting a theory as to why transsexual males appear to have a high rate of baldness and a few of the reasons why.DHT is not actually a bad hormone, it's very potent and extremely useful. It is what makes our genitals grow and body hair etc. In the video one of you linked to this man took DHT cream and saw much genital growth happening, some months later he also triggered the onset of balding, which he later talks about. In some of his recent youtube posts his hair has thinned/receded. This could be a result of taking DHT cream or may have happened anyway.

Having your hairline recede or adjust is natural. If it goes any further then I could see the problem, but very very few men don't see some form of hairline adjustment, whether they are ftm or not.

[outer_heavon]

Sorry but i have no desire to keep repeating myself and answering the same questions over and over. I didn't realise posting this would be the equivalent of banging my head off a brick wall.

I have already stated twice that this theory is from my own experiences and own research into transsexual males experiencing baldness. I.e. from talking to many, many transsexual males, meeting transmen in my local community etc. And not all of them had a family history of baldness on either side of their family and for the ones who did it was not often a strong genetic trait. Most only had one uncle experiencing hair loss or random instances in their family history.

Cisgender males do experience hair loss at any age, i never said they didn't? I merely said that often transsexual males seem to experience it faster and younger then the average cis male. The majority of cis males don't experience hair loss until they are much older, i.e forties, unless they have a strong genetic predisposition to balding early. Many transsexual males do not have a history of balding early in their 20's.

I gave the example of bodybuiders because more testosterone equals a higher chance of triggering male pattern. Do you think i'm stupid? I already know bodybuilders have normal testosterone levels. My point is that the more DHT you have the more chance of going bald. It may well be that transguys have massive DHT levels due to their oestrogen levels needing to be suppressed. Why don't you pay attention to what i'm actually saying.

I'm saying transguys may have way higher levels of DHT then cis males because of the need to suppress female hormones, which ONLY DHT does. And again this is a THEORY, not a fact. You should note the difference.

If you have only been on testosterone for 6 months, then i'm not surprised you haven't experienced much body hair yet, It wasn't until my second year of testosterone that i started to grow thick body hairy, which by the way was the time i started noticing hair loss on my head. No coincidence there.

Personally i don't care what you think, if you're looking for hard scientific data it simply isn't out there, because no one in the scientific field is going to care why transsexual males may go bald quicker then cis males or why they may have a higher rate of balding.

I can only post my experiences and observations, nothing more. I have no desire to carry this on further since i am being attacked for posting a mere theory.

Make your own mistakes with hormones.

[Lachlann]

Do you think i'm stupid?

Nope, but I think now you're just being overly defensive and insulting to me now. Especially since I was respectful towards you.

Personally i don't care what you think, if you're looking for hard scientific data it simply isn't out there, because no one in the scientific field is going to care why transsexual males may go bald quicker then cis males or why they may have a higher rate of balding.

I can only post my experiences and observations, nothing more. I have no desire to carry this on further since i am being attacked for posting a mere theory.

Make your own mistakes with hormones.

Then I'm not quite sure why you're posting if you don't care what we think? I think this was to spark debate and come to a logical conclusion. The only one attacking anyone here is you it seems.

When you're suggesting something anecdotal, you should be aware some people are going to challenge it with what knowledge they do have of the subject.

[Jude_]

From what i've heard online, and in the local trans community, it's actually less common for transguys to go completely bald. The DHT is definitely an interesting theory.

Of course, A LOT of men (cis and trans) have receding hairlines. It makes sense to me that the ftms who start their hormonal transition after their late 20's would experience hair loss. Essentially, the body is catching up to where it would have been if it was born male, including hair loss. So it might seems like a ton of hair is falling out at once, because it all happens at such an accelerated rate, but their bodies are actually catching up to where they would have been, had that person been genetically male.

[westside]

If it worries you that you are loosing hair then spray green tea on your scalp. I tried. It works for me.

[Alessandro]

Personally i don't care what you think, if you're looking for hard scientific data it simply isn't out there, because no one in the scientific field is going to care why transsexual males may go bald quicker then cis males or why they may have a higher rate of balding.

I can only post my experiences and observations, nothing more. I have no desire to carry this on further since i am being attacked for posting a mere theory.

Make your own mistakes with hormones.

OK, you are a very rude human being.  Here, learn something.  http://www.albion.com/netiquette/corerules.html

Okay, the reason why I flagged this one up - you'd be surprised what people in the scientific community are interested in.  Why do you think they would be disinterested in baldness?  Because of vanity, combatting baldness is a huge area of research.  And there is more interest in the hormonal responses of transsexual people than you might think!  Hell, I'd do a study on that if I was in the right area of science.

As it is I am conducting studies to see how cow pee influences nitrous oxide release from peat soils.  Like I said.  You'd be surprised what the scientific community are interested in   

[elvistears]

I really really hope I don't lose my hair. I'm pretty vain about it.  My cousins on my mums side are bald...eek.

[Arch]

I think that the ovaries should just be removed if you are concerned like i am. It's much better to have a balanced hormonal system and not need these huge amounts of testosterone in us.

Yeah, I'll run down and tell my insurance company to get right on it.

A few stray thoughts, as they occur to me:

Susan's has seen other threads on this topic, and you might find them interesting.

As someone here noted, anecdotal evidence is merely anecdotal, so don't be surprised if people challenge it. As someone else suggested, this would be an excellent opportunity for you to start a survey or a study so that the evidence becomes rather more than anecdotal.

And, as Jude says, when some of us lose hair, we're just catching up to where we would have been if we'd been born right. That's why a carefully constructed study would be better than stray observations. I myself am dealing with a lot of stray hairs falling out, and I haven't been able to decide whether my hairline is still adjusting or my hair is just thinning out a little to catch up to where I would have been if I'd been cisgender or if I'm really starting to bald. So I'm on Finasteride, but I wonder how that will affect my transition.

P.S. For the record, I myself only know a couple of trans men whose bodies are really rudely hairy. But some of the other guys are pretty early in transition, like two to five years on HRT.

[Nimetön]

Sorry but i have no desire to keep repeating myself and answering the same questions over and over. I didn't realise posting this would be the equivalent of banging my head off a brick wall.

I've noticed that this is a very common pattern: layman meets scientist, layman excitedly shares hypothesis (usually mistakenly refers to it as a theory, but we don't mind), scientist asks the basic questions that he asks of all of his graduate students and colleagues, layman becomes defensive.  Young scientist is baffled; old scientist is bored.  I'm an old scientist.

Professional scientists don't have a problem with hypotheses from laymen; some of the greatest advances in radio-frequency communications, and a few interesting methods in practical semiconductor physics, came from some dude's garage.  However, asking the difficult questions is quite literally my job and even my life's central preoccupation, and getting defensive won't further the investigation.

If you keep your wits (by which I mean your civility) about you, you could very well spark an academic investigation from this hypothesis.  I strongly suspect that there are a number of endocrinologists out there who would gladly release that information, and any number of young medical students who would be happy to run the meta-analysis.  There could be an article in this.

- N

[kyril]

If you post a "theory" that you came up with, don't be offended when people question it. What you've got here is a hypothesis. It's testable. People are giving you ideas of how to test it, as well as pointing out possible flaws you might want to address first. This is good. It's how science works. If you can't handle it, don't post your untested ideas on scientifically-testable subjects.
Post Merge: July 21, 2010, 05:41:05 PM
BTW, a quick question to cis men and those who've been on T: I already have a clearly masculine M-shaped hairline (since early childhood). Should I expect it to become even more exaggerated as puberty progresses? Anyone else start with this shape?

[Scotty72]

As I read through this topic I believe someone mentioned the ovaries shutting down after being on testosterone for so long.  However Outer_Heavon says that we should get them removed so that the testosterone no longer has to fight with the oestrogene.  But after so long on testosterone the ovaries shut down, no one but a doctor can say when that happens, but why would you need to get the ovaries removed when they simply shut down eventually?

I understand there is a risk of cancer if they are not removed, but going past that, do the ovaries still produce estrogene even after shutting down?  If they dont, then really there would be no point in removing them other than because of the cancer risks.

From what I have noticed of transmen on testosterone, the huge change for them is the hair line and added facial hair, I have only noticed a very rare few who are actually balding on top, and these men were in their late 30's and early 40's.

[westside]

Hello Gentlemen, here is a website on transmen hair loss and bone issues written by a research scientist who is a transman.

http://americantransman.com/category/sciencebiology/

He is doing loads of research on hairloss and where gender comes from. I hope this helps you resolve your worries and questions on hairloss and osteoporosis that trans men on T must think about. All the best and take care of your health.