Controversial views about being TS...

[anna_MTF]

Hi Everybody!

This is my first topic and English is not my mother tongue...so please be gentle with me.

A few words about myself: I'm from Europe, I'm an MTF transsexual but I'm not transitioning. I'm a lesbian living in a male body. I'm also "out".

I'm a so-called "non-homosexual transsexual", but I consider myself a woman. I do not find the "non-homosexual transsexual" label disturbing because it reflects the current state of my body which is a male one. The fact that I find this body and the male gender role uncomfortable is another problem in my opinion.

I was shocked to experience in some TS chat rooms the intolerance of some transsexuals (luckily the minority, but an aggressive one). When I shared my doubts and fears about my real gender I was rejected and silenced which really hurt me.

I find curious that some transsexuals cannot even bear to hear any other theory about our state that "we are REAL women and shut up".

I suppose it is the result of rejection and intolerance emanating from society. But I find this TS intolerance disturbing and not at all feminine.

After spending a lot of time talking about transsexuality with cisgender women they pointed out some very important differences (and I'm talking about "non-homosexual transsexuals").

These differences are the following:

1.) a post-op transsexual woman still won't have the XX sex chromosome. Not even intersexuals are really females according to this distinction. It means, that TS women can reproduce only as males, but we cannot reproduce as "normal" females, even if we will have an uterus. So in the biological sense we cannot fulfill the evolutionary purpose of the female sex.
2.) a pre-op (non-homosexual!) transsexual woman has in average a more aggressive, logical, spatial type thinking than the average cisgender female. There are also some - statistically gender atypical - interests like not only using but loving and repairing computers, cars, weapons, loving action, battles, wars, power, sports etc.. These are 'real' interests, so it cannot be explained by the pressures of society.
3.) cisgender women find it very curious that they have no clue about who can be a pre-op (non-homosexual) transsexual. According to them transsexuals show no signs of unusual femininity pre-op or pre-transitioning. On the other side they can usually suspect if someone is gay.

So my theory is the following:

1.) (non-homosexual) transsexuals are the product of a special in-utero development.
2.) transsexualism has a neurobiological origin and cannot be cured, because transsexualism is hardwired in the brain.
3.)  transsexualism is not a disease, because being (partly) female is not an illness
4.) transsexuals have a partly female brain, which contains a feminine body image, and can contain feminine social, aesthetic, emotional and sexual skills and instincts.
5.) transsexualism is mainly an innate feminine body image, as a neurobiological self-expectation:  there can be no transsexuality without the feeling of feminine body image. Other feminine traits may vary amongst individual transsexuals.
6.) strong fetishists (crossdressers,  ->-bleeped-<-cs etc.) or feminine males, without an innate and not erection-oriented feminine body image are not transsexuals.

I hope you won't kill me for saying these...

[Renate]

1.) a post-op transsexual woman still won't have the XX sex chromosome.

Oh, no! Not the old chromosome red herring again?

Have you had your chromosomes checked lately?
Did you check the chromosomes of that nice old lady that sells you stuff at the corner store?
Have you double-checked the chromosomes of your parents? Perhaps you were adopted?

[kelly_aus]

These differences are the following:

1.) a post-op transsexual woman still won't have the XX sex chromosome. Not even intersexuals are really females according to this distinction. It means, that TS women can reproduce only as males, but we cannot reproduce as "normal" females, even if we will have an uterus. So in the biological sense we cannot fulfill the evolutionary purpose of the female sex.

2.) a pre-op (non-homosexual!) transsexual woman has in average a more aggressive, logical, spatial type thinking than the average cisgender female. There are also some - statistically gender atypical - interests like not only using but loving and repairing computers, cars, weapons, loving action, battles, wars, power, sports etc.. These are 'real' interests, so it cannot be explained by the pressures of society.

3.) cisgender women find it very curious that they have no clue about who can be a pre-op (non-homosexual) transsexual. According to them transsexuals show no signs of unusual femininity pre-op or pre-transitioning. On the other side they can usually suspect if someone is gay.

Hmm, my thoughts are as follows:

1) Firstly, chromosomes don't mean a lot.. There are any number of men and women who have variations on the "accepted" XX and XY combos.. Where does a cismale with a XYX or XX combo fit in your theory? Or a cisfemale with a XY or XXY combo?

2) Can we leave the strereotypes at the door? I've known cisfemales who were in to all those things.. I used to pretend interest in those sorts of things and do enjoy computer related stuff still. I also have always enjoyed "traditional" female activities such as sewing, needlework, cooking.. Oh, and SHOPPING! I think it has more to do with whether a person is left or right brained..

3) They probably don't acknowledge that a "man" could possibly be TG. I've always had far better friendships with cisfemales then any cismale I've met.. Did they pick me as gay? Yes, but that's the image I've been projecting for the last 20 years..

So my theory is the following:

1.) (non-homosexual) transsexuals are the product of a special in-utero development.
2.) transsexualism has a neurobiological origin and cannot be cured, because transsexualism is hardwired in the brain.
3.)  transsexualism is not a disease, because being (partly) female is not an illness
4.) transsexuals have a partly female brain, which contains a feminine body image, and can contain feminine social, aesthetic, emotional and sexual skills and instincts.
5.) transsexualism is mainly an innate feminine body image, as a neurobiological self-expectation:  there can be no transsexuality without the feeling of feminine body image. Other feminine traits may vary amongst individual transsexuals.
6.) strong fetishists (crossdressers,  ->-bleeped-<-cs etc.) or feminine males, without an innate and not erection-oriented feminine body image are not transsexuals.

I hope you won't kill me for saying these...

So to sum up your theory:
We're transgendered due to a mix up or issue during foetal development..

So we're really no different to people with Austism, Aspergers or other birth "defects". Excuse me a moment whilst I go and throw up..

[anna_MTF]

Hi!

I really don't know how can it be a red herring, when we are talking about the difference between the female sex and female gender.

All I'm saying is that the female gender can exist in a human with a male sex. If you have female gender you don't necessarily have female sex.

Cisgender females produce gametes or eggs with one type of chromosome, the X chromosome.

But we should remember that cisgender women carry both their father's and their mother's X chromosomes.

Transsexual women only carry their mothers X chromosomes (If they are XY or XYY).

So it is simply impossible to maintain a healthy genome with two XY chromosomes (male and transsexual female).

Let me show, what can chromosomal abnormalities cause:

XXY, XXYY, XXXY    * male * Klinefelter syndrome * sterility, small testicles, breast enlargement
XYY                    * male * XYY syndrome * normal male traits
XO                    * female * Turner syndrome * sex organs don't mature at adolescence, sterility, short stature
XXX                    * female * Trisomy X *   tall stature, learning disabilities, limited fertility

Source:

http://biology.about.com/od/basicgenetics/a/aa110504a.htm

So my point is that gender is not a consumer (luxury) product in evolution, it has a purpose.

Does our (transsexual women's) gender have an evolutionary purpose?



Post Merge: July 31, 2010, 09:26:19 AM

So we're really no different to people with Austism, Aspergers or other birth "defects". Excuse me a moment whilst I go and throw up..

Please, read my post more carefully.

I wrote the following:

3.)  transsexualism is not a disease, because being (partly) female is not an illness

Please, no more "straw man" and "appeal to emotion" fallacies.

[kelly_aus]

Make up your mind.. It's either a disease or an evolutionary hiccup.. I notice you also ignored my other points..

Your gender identity is defined by how/what you think.. Your gender is defined physically.. Given the diversity that exists in humans, why should it be a surprise that sometimes these don't match?

[spacial]

anna

I can see that you're attempting to annalyse the issue. That much is good. We should all try to understand any issues.

You're not really making yourself very clear though. I suspect, there are language problems. Though your command of English is good, when you start to get into complicated topics, problems can show up.

For most of us here, the issue seems to rest upon coming to terms with ourselves and how we will deal with society.

Attempting to look at the more logical aspects will be interesting, I'm sure. But I have to say, I'm really not clear about what it is you're saying.
Post Merge: July 31, 2010, 09:39:46 AM

Make up your mind.. It's either a disease or an evolutionary hiccup.. I notice you also ignored my other points..

I don't personally accept either.

People like us have been recorded throughout history. That demonstrates that the various traits are persistant in the human population.

I cannot accept that such traits, which would normally be problematic to the survival of a species can persist unless they play an important part in huan survival.

My own belief, is that, in pre-civilisation time, (99% of human existance), people like us played an important role in human society.

[anna_MTF]

Kelly_au,

First of all I think this is not an evolutionary process, because it is quite rare (1 in 30000).

We are accidents.

We are not sick, we have no disease, we are accidents.

We are rare and special and that's it.

Let me see your other replies:

2) Can we leave the strereotypes at the door? I've known cisfemales who were in to all those things.. I used to pretend  interest in those sorts of things and do enjoy computer related stuff still. I also have always enjoyed "traditional" female activities such as sewing, needlework, cooking.. Oh, and SHOPPING! I think it has more to do with whether a person is left or right brained..

We can't leave stereotypes at the door because they are mostly true - statistically. I think it is astonishing that we can really believe that everybody is like us - it is simply not true! The vast majority of people are heterosexual cisgender people. They are "normal" and we are "abnormal". Sad but true.

Please look at this video:



Digit ratio is the result of the same type of hormonal changes which cause transsexuality in my opinion.

3) They probably don't acknowledge that a "man" could possibly be TG. I've always had far better friendships with cisfemales then any cismale I've met.. Did they pick me as gay? Yes, but that's the image I've been projecting for the last 20 years..

I have no male friends at all, only female friends. They don't pick me as gay.


So? What is your point?

[kelly_aus]

Oh, Honey,

You do not have to show me anything, you see sweetie, I have been teaching and doing research on the biological basis of GID for over 20 years.
The gene(s) that causes the neuro-anatomical changes leading to GID are not in any specific evolutionary pressure per se. If they were they (the genes) and the associated behaviors would have been eliminated from the gene poll thousands of years ago. Homosexuality, GID (or more medically appropriate Gender Identity Incongruity GII), and other behavior incongruence such as "borderline personality disorder" for example, are but the result of random mutation in your genes, nothing less nothing more.

That's probably the best explanation I've some across..

Kelly_au,

First of all I think this is not an evolutionary process, because it is quite rare (1 in 30000).

We are accidents.

We are not sick, we have no disease, we are accidents.

We are rare and special and that's it.

Based on your stats, that means there are 228643 transpeople on the planet, based on 2009 population data.. Personally, I don't think that number is high enough..

Let me see your other replies:

We can't leave stereotypes at the door because they are mostly true - statistically. I think it is astonishing that we can really believe that everybody is like us - it is simply not true! The vast majority of people are heterosexual cisgender people. They are "normal" and we are "abnormal". Sad but true.

I never claimed to meet societal norms, but I object to being termed abnormal..

Please look at this video:



Digit ratio is the result of the same type of hormonal changes which cause transsexuality in my opinion.

Hmm, one race is not a statistically worthwhile sample. Care to point me to a published, peer reviewed article?

I have no male friends at all, only female friends. They don't pick me as gay.


So? What is your point?

My point is my cisfemale friends saw my feminine traits and assumed they were due to my projected "gay" image.. The 2 cisfemale friends I've "come out" to expressed no surprise at all, one actually commented that she had wondered...

[anna_MTF]

Oh, Honey,

You do not have to show me anything, you see sweetie, I have been teaching and doing research on the biological basis of GID for over 20 years.
The gene(s) that causes the neuro-anatomical changes leading to GID are not in any specific evolutionary pressure per se. If they were they (the genes) and the associated behaviors would have been eliminated from the gene poll thousands of years ago. Homosexuality, GID (or more medically appropriate Gender Identity Incongruity GII), and other behavior incongruence such as "borderline personality disorder" for example, are but the result of random mutation in your genes, nothing less nothing more.

Whoa, that hurts. But really. It sucks to be a TS female when all we want is acceptance and we get a passive-aggressive kick from our sisters.

But I got used to it: remember, I'm in a male body? Men are actively aggressive. But I survived high school. University was way better by the way.

Anyway.

It is all good and spectacular that you have knowledge. I respect that.

So, using that knowledge would you be so kind to write a relevant reply?

We were at the chromosomes I think.

[kelly_aus]

Just for interests sake.. Due to genetic issues in my family, I've had various testing done.. I have a perfectly "normal" set of XY chromosomes..

[anna_MTF]

Dear Spacial!

Sorry for my English...it is very hard to express complex ideas in a foreign language, especially if it is a half-scientific question.

My point is: we (as transsexuals) in general are not females physiologically and we are only half-females mentally.

Only our predetermined, neurobiologically hardwired self image is 100% female.

So basically our brain makes us think we are females - but we are only partly females.

[kelly_aus]

You are only applying Western societal norms.. What about the cultures where it is accepted  as normal behaviour?

[DRAIN]

bad trolls amuse me <3

and i know this might destroy your little fantasy where only 'men' can be scary perverts that really just want to be seen as pretty ladies but....

where do the female to male transsexuals come in? 

[anna_MTF]

Dear Drain!

Excuse me. Are you a male? Are you talking to me?

[kelly_aus]

Drain is a FTM and, like myself, wonders where he fits in your theory?

You also haven't answered why you insist on applying Western societal norms.. What about the various non-Western cultures where trangender people are accepted as "normal"?

[anna_MTF]

Dear Kelly_aus!

I think we should be provided a third gender status, like the hijras.

They are (barely) accepted, but they are not normal.

Look at this:

http://www.iglhrc.org/cgi-bin/iowa/article/takeaction/resourcecenter/650.html

Please do not think that the romantic "perfect and holy indigenous people" idea is true.

People are transphobic everywhere - and probably it has an evolutionary purpose.

It's purpose is basically to kill us - and so redirect resources to heterosexuals who can reproduce more efficiently.

It is primitive and in civilisation we must have an another alternative.
Post Merge: July 31, 2010, 11:16:27 AM

Dear Drain!

The existence of FTMs proves my point even better than MTFs.

What I'm saying is that being TS is not a perversion, it has nothing to do with fetishes.

It is an accident in the uterus. The results are the following: the self-image (body image, social roles, and sometimes sexuality) of the brain is of the opposing gender.

I think you must feel that your body and your treatment as a female is wrong. Your brain feels that something is not right.

It is because you have a hardwired self image as a male, both socially, mentally and probably sexually.

Am I wrong?

[kelly_aus]

Sadly, you appear to have some quite rigid ideas on this topic and are not amenable to a proper scientific or sociological debate, so I'll bow out at this point.

Without an intense, long term scientific study this discussion is largely moot anyway.

[April Dawne]

While I don't completely agree with anyone's scientific opinions or explanations as to how or why we are who we are, I can definitely appreciate the information and allow myself to at least consider it's validity without completely rejecting it on first-read. I don't think we will ever truly know exactly what happens to "cause" transsexuality. We are flawed human beings, and we simply are not capable of seeing absolutely everything or thinking of absolutely everything, or for that matter knowing absolutely everything, although generally as a species we do seem to think we have this universe pretty well figured out. If so, we would have cured things like cancer, diabetes, MS, autism, etc. For many things there is just no way of curing them, or for knowing everything about them, including how it happens. So although I don't agree with everything you are saying Anna, I do think at least some of your theories have merit. Mainly, you just need to learn to word and phrase things better because some (actually many) things are touchy subjects.

Also, you are not being attacked by Drain, so there's no need to overreact. He is a female-to-male transsexual, and was simply asking if FtM's fit into your theories because you have limited your explanations to MtF's thus far. Please try not to be so confrontational, it won't make you very popular.

[anna_MTF]

Dear AprilDawn!

Thank you for your advice, you really helped me to understand the point of view of others.

I'm really sorry for my English, I know I use some words out of context or strangely.

Sorry if I hurt anyone. Sorry Drain!

Sometimes I do overreact...
Post Merge: July 31, 2010, 11:39:24 AM

Dear kelly_aus!

Please name your sources, I'm willing to change my point of view.

But without sources it is harder.

[April Dawne]

We all struggle with our self-image, whether trans or not, it's just more-so with trans people, and some of the comments you made about us being "accidents" in the womb, or that we are "abnormal" isn't going to be taken very well. Thank you for apologizing though!

There are so many theories about how transsexuality happens, I just don't think we will ever know what the answer is. Also consider this: if the scientific world ever did learn what causes it, they could then in theory know how to prevent it, making US an endangered species. Man's "need" to be in control of his environment would mean the extinction of a unique anomaly, which is a pretty scary thought in my opinion. Especially since we don't really know if there might be a very important reason that we exist in the first place. This goes back to my statement about humans not knowing or seeing absolutely everything!

I would rather put my energy into promoting awareness to further the cause of acceptance in general society so that we TS people can go about living  our lives without fear.