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phantom penis

Started by Elijah3291, August 03, 2010, 06:24:12 PM

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lilacwoman

silly question sparked by insideontheoutsides post: has any surgeon attempted to transfer a piece of vein from, say, the leg and pass it down the length of the  the clitoris and attached it to the opening of the urethra to allow FtMs to pee standing up?
Vein stripping is a regular operation so if a transplanted vein can be kept alive down the centre of the clitoris it would allow standing pees.
Any medical 101 students care to comment on the possibilities/problems?
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Flan

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 09, 2010, 01:44:42 PM
silly question sparked by insideontheoutsides post: has any surgeon attempted to transfer a piece of vein from, say, the leg and pass it down the length of the  the clitoris and attached it to the opening of the urethra to allow FtMs to pee standing up?
Vein stripping is a regular operation so if a transplanted vein can be kept alive down the centre of the clitoris it would allow standing pees.
Any medical 101 students care to comment on the possibilities/problems?

it has to be mucusal tissue or skin (...) because the ph of urine will damage a transplanted vein.
Soft kitty, warm kitty, little ball of fur. Happy kitty, sleepy kitty, purr, purr, purr.
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Shang

It could all be in my head or what Cowboi wrote or any similar of things, but I have felt some sort of sensation down there doesn't correspond with female genitalia.  Almost constantly there's the steady "weight" of something there and the urge to rearrange something that isn't there but feels like it's there so I can sit properly at times or so I can wear certain clothing items.  Rarely is it a sporadic sensation such as during arousal, when the sensation usually diminishes or disappears all together, only to come back afterwards and give me some discomfort because I want to move something or adjust something to be more comfortable but that something doesn't exist and I know it doesn't exist.

I can look down and see there's no penis, but my mind says that there is or there should be despite knowing there isn't and that there will never be.

I hope that made sense, I'm tired and trying to think properly.
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Fencesitter

@Shang

makes perfect sense to me.

Well, it just came to my mind that it could all be worse. Imagine we all had phantom crab lice  :o
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Shang

@ Fencesitter:  *shudder* That'd be horrible!

I makes me cringe just thinking about it!  Now I'm going to go around thinking bugs are crawling on me. :P XD
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elvistears

I had an awesome dick dream last night! I was in a gay club but I was freaking out because I was wearing girls undies and I was getting hard and it was bursting out. It was a real dick but I could also remove it and wave it around! I was waving it at some guy who was in a cage wanking - kinky right?
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insideontheoutside

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 09, 2010, 01:44:42 PM
silly question sparked by insideontheoutsides post: has any surgeon attempted to transfer a piece of vein from, say, the leg and pass it down the length of the  the clitoris and attached it to the opening of the urethra to allow FtMs to pee standing up?
Vein stripping is a regular operation so if a transplanted vein can be kept alive down the centre of the clitoris it would allow standing pees.
Any medical 101 students care to comment on the possibilities/problems?

You know, I forget what it's called but there's some specific thing where they reroute stuff. There's probably mention of it in the "bottom surgery" thread although I haven't looked in that thread myself!

"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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brainiac

Hmm. I wonder if there have been any neuroimaging studies related to this.

(I have one too.)

And Cowboi... I don't think dismissing them as "not real phantoms" is valid. It can be a gradation. The intensity of the sensations can vary from person to person-- but what I think we all have is the feeling that there's supposed to be a penis there, and this feeling comes from something low-level (bottom-up processing, from "deeper down" in the brain) rather than simple wishing it was there. I'm not sure about the neuroanatomy of this, but I'd be really interested in seeing if we could differentiate the somatosensory cortex of FTM people versus cisgender women somehow.

For me, it's a feeling of incongruence. It's strongest during sex, and I can attest that when it DOES feel more like things match up (due to usage of simultaneous strap-on and stimulation, or packing/binding), it's not just a fantasy being fulfilled; my body feels more "right" at a base level.

And people, don't dismiss something as "all in your head". :P Your head's pretty damn powerful.
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Colleen Ireland

I'm only here 'cause of the Degrassi thread, but I have to admit, this topic is fascinating!  'Cause, like, I often feel like I have real boobs, too, but then I don't (yet) - like when I just wake up...  Sounds kinda like what y'all are talking about, forgive me if it's not... but I didn't guess others had the same sort of thing...

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lilacwoman

Quote from: insideontheoutside on August 09, 2010, 08:10:25 PM
You know, I forget what it's called but there's some specific thing where they reroute stuff. There's probably mention of it in the "bottom surgery" thread although I haven't looked in that thread myself!
female urethra isn't long enough?   maybe if they siamesed the two ureters and gained a few inches of urine tolerant tubing to insert in the clitoris?
there are various synthetic tubes that would work as well.
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Silver

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 10, 2010, 03:13:33 AM
female urethra isn't long enough?   maybe if they siamesed the two ureters and gained a few inches of urine tolerant tubing to insert in the clitoris?
there are various synthetic tubes that would work as well.

Female urethra is only 4 cm.
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Cowboi

I do think it would be interesting to know the differences between how cis women feel and how transmen feel, it would definitely answer some questions that have been raised here as far as rather or not things are natural or normal.

At the same time though the fact is that some of the things that have been said do not sound like a phantom limb issue at all. It's not a dismissal of people's feelings, it's merely looking at it in a logical way. It is a physical response from a portion of the body that is essentially the same in both genders when it comes down to the basics. Both get hard, both twitch or move on their own, both get sensation from extreme blood flow, etc. In essence the clit and the penis are the same thing, that is why the clit is exactly what becomes the penis in the uterus.

Who doesn't want to say that yes there is something so male about us on the inside that we even FEEL male on the outside and it feels natural and right to us? We are all here because we identify as trans to some degree or another, it is only logical to follow that sometimes we can convince ourselves that something which is completely natural and normal for someone with our physical body is really a beautiful in-depth thing that displays to us and to the world that our bodies just aren't as they were meant to be.

We can do all of the physical studies everyone has mentioned but it won't change the hundreds of psychological studies that have been done showing that it is more likely that we WANT to have this sensation, we WANT to feel this way and so when it is brought up by another person we do. It's a natural human reaction, when you hear what you WANT to hear it becomes what you WANT it to be and means what you WANT it to mean. It's desire, it's normal, it's natural and every single person has done it at some point or another. It's not some kind of phenomenon, it's a psychological reaction that has been studied, documented and proven right over and over and over and over again. It's called PSYCHOSOMATICS. With the appropriate suggestion we can all actually feel something.

Once again, I am not saying that any particular people here are crazy or making it up or whatever. I'm not dismissing that MANY of us could have a phantom penis. I'm merely pointing out that not all of these things sound like a phantom limb and that perhaps there is some band wagon jumping going on in this thread. Honestly if there wasn't any band wagon jumping going on that would be a much larger phenomenon than the phantom penis.
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Fencesitter

Quote from: Cowboi on August 10, 2010, 03:32:52 AMWe can do all of the physical studies everyone has mentioned but it won't change the hundreds of psychological studies that have been done showing that it is more likely that we WANT to have this sensation, we WANT to feel this way and so when it is brought up by another person we do.

You make me curious now. Do you have any information on these studies?
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brainiac

The psychosomatic stuff is exactly what I'm talking about, though. That is an important factor, and it's also important in phantom limb studies, as well as "hysteria" (conversion disorder). It's important in anything that involves top-down processing in the brain.

What it comes down to for me is that someone who has "convinced themselves" of these sensations and has them is still experiencing exactly what we might call a phantom sensation. The whole "cross-wiring" idea? That lower-level process could equally well be caused by being deeply convinced-- a higher-level process. That's how placebos work, and boy, do they work.

The fact that there is no sensory (tactile) input that causes them is exactly what makes something a phantom, and since we (and neuroscience) don't know exactly how phantom body parts work, I don't see the point in excluding an experience that fits this way.
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Bones

I heard about this some years back when I was talking to a friend and they were telling me about how sometimes people that lose a limb can or will have that limb still feel like it's there, ie. phantom limb....but then, none of us had one to begin with (Unless we're one of the unlucky few that were born hermaphrodite and it was chopped off at birth) but I think it makes sense to me since, well...all my life I had it in my head that I was meant to be male and for some odd reason during pregnancy something just messed up...I have had this feeling all my life that I had something there and if my girlfriend talks dirty to me or I get aroused it seems more prominent. But yeah..there -should- be a study on this..It might be interesting on what they may find...
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insideontheoutside

I don't have a phantom penis, mine just isn't as big and knows less "tricks" than some dudes  :laugh:
"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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Alessandro

Quote from: elvistears on August 09, 2010, 06:43:40 PM
I had an awesome dick dream last night! I was in a gay club but I was freaking out because I was wearing girls undies and I was getting hard and it was bursting out. It was a real dick but I could also remove it and wave it around! I was waving it at some guy who was in a cage wanking - kinky right?

Awesome, how come I never have dreams like that.  I once had a nightmare that I was walking around wearing just a t-shirt and everyone could tell I had no penis.  Depressing.

I do get the phantom penis thing.  Usually when I'm turned on and I want to use something that's not there.  It can really get me down, but my partner is very good at distracting me.  Its often best not to dwell on these things.
"You can't look where you're going if you don't know where you're going"
-Labyrinth
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Fencesitter

@Brainiac

Thank you very much for your explanation! I always wondered what is going on there. It is very interesting to read that it could theoretically go both ways - the phantom thing causing part of what being trans is like, and being trans causing a phantom penis sensation.

It would be interesting to find a transsexual who has both lost a limb and has this trans phantom part feeling and ask them if it's actually the same kind of feeling or very different.
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Cowboi

Quote from: brainiac on August 10, 2010, 08:12:25 AM
The psychosomatic stuff is exactly what I'm talking about, though. That is an important factor, and it's also important in phantom limb studies, as well as "hysteria" (conversion disorder). It's important in anything that involves top-down processing in the brain.

What it comes down to for me is that someone who has "convinced themselves" of these sensations and has them is still experiencing exactly what we might call a phantom sensation. The whole "cross-wiring" idea? That lower-level process could equally well be caused by being deeply convinced-- a higher-level process. That's how placebos work, and boy, do they work.

The fact that there is no sensory (tactile) input that causes them is exactly what makes something a phantom, and since we (and neuroscience) don't know exactly how phantom body parts work, I don't see the point in excluding an experience that fits this way.


Ah, one of those wonderful we are both going the same direction with something and missed each other along the way conversations lol. Gotta love it when that happens. I completely get what you are saying now and agree. It would be very interesting to see studies done about these issues. I'm curious how close things would match up between someone who has a phantom limb they actually lost and someone who has one that was never there to begin with.
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Cowboi

Quote from: Fencesitter on August 10, 2010, 04:40:10 AM
You make me curious now. Do you have any information on these studies?

To be honest there are too many to even know where to begin to point someone. Just do some research on psychosomatic studies. I'm not saying that there are specific studies on trans people who believe they have body parts, but in general there are tons of studies showing how people tend to suddenly "feel" or "believe" something is true once they hear it from someone else (especially from a large number of other people).

If you are genuinely interested in this type of stuff take a psychology class or two, it all is really interesting actually, or at least I think it is :)
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