For those who think it's okay for TG to be a mental disorder

[Jeatyn]

Personally, I have no social stigma. Even if I was alone on a desert island with no people around I would still feel dysphoria. It's my problem, not society's, I couldn't give a crap what society thinks

[Izumi]

The proposed DSM, thus far, states that anyone who happily transitions is no longer considered to have a mental disorder.  So in that sense, you are cured.

The change also makes it possible for individuals who have successfully transitioned to "lose" the diagnosis after satisfactory treatment. This resolves the problem that, in the DSM-IV-TR, there was a lack of an "exit clause," meaning that individuals once diagnosed with GID will always be considered to have the diagnosis, regardless of whether they have transitioned and are psychosocially adjusted in the identified gender role.
See End Note #2, paragraph 2.
http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=482#

Heh, i am all for this.  I really wont feel GID once i have fully transitioned, i am already feeling better at this point the farther I go, after SRS and FFS, i will really not need anymore therapy or anything else for that matter other then normal hormone supply.

So if they put that in the DSM i would love that.

[Summerfall]

To treat transsexuality as a mental disorder we have to ask, "What about the mind is wrong that must be fixed?" and when we  respond, "Well, the body is wrong -- that's what's wrong with the mind," to me, this doesn't sound like a solid beginning for treatment that regards transsexuality as a mental disorder.

Yes, we must undergo psych evaluations to make sure we aren't bonkers or making the wrong decision, but so must anyone joining the police force. In both cases, the psych evaluation only verifies the mental health and readiness of individuals who proceed.

There might come a day when we really do treat TG as a mental disorder, when we take a pill for the mind that remaps it to match the sex which our bodies displayed at birth. As it is, the medical community treats us as if our minds are sound and our bodies are the source of the problem. Since this is the most effective treatment currently known, since it incorporates the individual's sense of self which embraces a holistic model of health, I have to agree that we are not mentally disordered.

[Fencesitter]

To treat transsexuality as a mental disorder we have to ask, "What about the mind is wrong that must be fixed?" and when we  respond, "Well, the body is wrong -- that's what's wrong with the mind," to me, this doesn't sound like a solid beginning for treatment that regards transsexuality as a mental disorder.

You can see it either way, as the mind does not get along with what the body's like, though the body itself is functional and healthy.

As for the "anti-transsexuality pill", I would not take it, I would not be myself any more after that. Or would only give it a try if you can test it with a pill that works for, say, one week.

As for the mental disorder, there is a lot of stigma attached to it which is sad. A friend of mine is affected with a mental disorder, and she gets stigmatized a lot because it makes her unable to assume any regular work and people think she's just too lazy. But you can talk normally to her etc. because she has medicine which brings it somewhat under control.

[Julie Marie]

It has been argued here that *my body functions normally, so my brain is disordered* 

How do we know the body is functioning normally?   

It is believed that brain gender is determined about a month before physical gender.  Wouldn't that indicate the body failed to conform to brain gender and therefore the body isn't functioning normally?  That's what happened to me and I challenge anyone to try and prove me wrong!

[Fencesitter]

It has been argued here that *my body functions normally, so my brain is disordered* 

How do we know the body is functioning normally?   

It is believed that brain gender is determined about a month before physical gender.  Wouldn't that indicate the body failed to conform to brain gender and therefore the body isn't functioning normally?  That's what happened to me and I challenge anyone to try and prove me wrong!

Okay, I'll try to challenge that:
1. As far as I know, it's not clear if the pre-birth brain chemistry plays a role in the development of TS for each single transsexual.
2. The body functioning normally: you can test this - cardiological exam, handicaps, blood test, reaction test etc. Usually there are no extremely abnormal positive findings among transsexuals. It would be different if we TS were all deaf or paraplegic.
3a. Maybe the body itself functioned normally but got immersed by weird hormones from outside from your mom, then there's nothing wrong with your body, as it would otherwise have developed "normally".
3b. If the development in the womb is completely "normal" with only the exception of the brain gender, I'd rather cling to say that it's the brain that's the problem and not the rest of the body as there's so many factors involved in body development. Like a white wall with a red spot on it, I would not say there's a big white spot around the center of the red wall, but rather a red spot on a white wall.

[Izumi]

Okay, I'll try to challenge that:
1. As far as I know, it's not clear if the pre-birth brain chemistry plays a role in the development of TS for each single transsexual.
2. The body functioning normally: you can test this - cardiological exam, handicaps, blood test, reaction test etc. Usually there are no extremely abnormal positive findings among transsexuals. It would be different if we TS were all deaf or paraplegic.
3a. Maybe the body itself functioned normally but got immersed by weird hormones from outside from your mom, then there's nothing wrong with your body, as it would otherwise have developed "normally".
3b. If the development in the womb is completely "normal" with only the exception of the brain gender, I'd rather cling to say that it's the brain that's the problem and not the rest of the body as there's so many factors involved in body development. Like a white wall with a red spot on it, I would not say there's a big white spot around the center of the red wall, but rather a red spot on a white wall.

I think i see where your going here, but the problem is you separate mind and body, your all one organism, neither can exist without the other its a symbiosis of trillions of cells, that ironically started from a single one.  In that respect when we are conceived the genetic makeup that will be our brain and body are set unless outside influences effect it during birth process.  So you were born with TS in your genes, its a defect present in every cell of your body, however some may not be effected as much as others.  A defect which causes in MTF's the inability for brain tissue to properly make use of androgens, and in so it is a problem of the organism as a whole (defect) not a single system since every system has a purpose and is necessary for life.  TS is a birth defect, however, GID, Depression, Anxiety is a symptom of that defect in other words, yeah your mentally ill, your suffering symptoms of mental illness, however, the symptoms are curable with treatment being born with TS however is not at this time unless we develop a method for mapping the brain structures and adjusting cell genetics to match birth sex.  Most people are born without this defect and develop normally, we do not, so yeah its a defect.  The statistics state that 1/20000 is TS, so we must assume that being free of the defect is the norm, or you would see a lot more of us.

What we perceive as our minds is simply a construct we make ourselves to give us a purpose and feel alive, but it also is bound to our physiology, many different diseases effect your emotions, how you perceive things, create mental illnesses as symptoms of them.  You would think your completely normal but your body is not working correctly, but to you everything is great, in reality not the case, you might have one disease or another, or a congenital defect appears during puberty, etc... etc...

So to summarize all this crap, you have a mental illness caused by a physical one, being born with TS.   

[Julie Marie]

You're on Fencesitter...
1. Nothing there to disprove my assertion.
2. The tests you mentioned do not cover the entire physical human body.  What about body chemistry?  What about DNA and if each nucleotide or any of its three components is functioning normally?  You can't test that.  Your evidence is unsubstantiated and incomplete.
3a. Supposition, not fact.  If it were fact, it would seem the "weird hormones" could have altered your physical development.
3b. Opinion, not proof.  But I'll take you on with your argument.  You assume the development of the brain is abnormal yet the body is normal.  Why not the other way around?  Your opinion is prejudiced and therefore has no weight in this case.

Am I getting you to lean a bit on that fence? 

[Summerfall]

As for the "anti-transsexuality pill", I would not take it, I would not be myself any more after that. Or would only give it a try if you can test it with a pill that works for, say, one week.

I would not take it either. I don't think most people would sign up for gender lobotomy. A person's gender identity is a valid part of their sense of self and integral to their overall health and wellness.

You can see it either way, as the mind does not get along with what the body's like, though the body itself is functional and healthy.

Transsexuality is unique in this way, but it's really not that difficult to deal with the issue of whether the mind or the body should be the hub around which treatment orbits.

Assumption -------> Action based on assumption ---------> Result

1) Body is healthy -------------> Adjust mind (anti-transsexuality pill) -------------> Unhealthy, poorly adjusted individual

2) Mind is healthy -------------> Adjust body (HRT, SRS, etc.) -------------> Healthy, well-adjusted individual


This seems to be the direction that the DSM is going, anyway. The fact that they can claim the mind is cured, as cited earlier in this thread, without actually doing anything to the mind shows that perhaps the mind was not the issue to begin with.

As for the mental disorder, there is a lot of stigma attached to it which is sad. A friend of mine is affected with a mental disorder, and she gets stigmatized a lot because it makes her unable to assume any regular work and people think she's just too lazy. But you can talk normally to her etc. because she has medicine which brings it somewhat under control.

My partner suffers from some pretty major mental disorders, and I am very aware of the stigma attached to the label. I only say that TG is not a mental disorder because we see the best results when it is not treated as one.

[Izumi]

I would not take it either. I don't think most people would sign up for gender lobotomy. A person's gender identity is a valid part of their sense of self and integral to their overall health and wellness.

Transsexuality is unique in this way, but it's really not that difficult to deal with the issue of whether the mind or the body should be the hub around which treatment orbits.

Assumption -------> Action based on assumption ---------> Result

1) Body is healthy -------------> Adjust mind (anti-transsexuality pill) -------------> Unhealthy, poorly adjusted individual

2) Mind is healthy -------------> Adjust body (HRT, SRS, etc.) -------------> Healthy, well-adjusted individual


This seems to be the direction that the DSM is going, anyway. The fact that they can claim the mind is cured, as cited earlier in this thread, without actually doing anything to the mind shows that perhaps the mind was not the issue to begin with.
My partner suffers from some pretty major mental disorders, and I am very aware of the stigma attached to the label. I only say that TG is not a mental disorder because we see the best results when it is not treated as one.

Not take it??!!? are you serious.. i mean really, WOW~ If there was a pill that would have allowed me to live as a normal functioning man and feel the same way i do (respectively) living as a woman, I would take that sucker in a heart beat.  You are saying you would WANT to go through HRT and health risks involved, the social stigma, the ridicule, the depression about the uncertainty of the outcome of the treatment, the pain of surgery and recovery, the respective stigma dealing with relationships, not to mention money and other outside influences?!?!? I am sorry, i think that would be crazy...  Its like saying I CHOOSE TO SUFFER PAIN EVEN THOUGH THERE IS A PAINLESS CURE..... huh?!?!

Your reasoning is also flawed in you think the pill would lead to this:
1) Body is healthy -------------> Adjust mind (anti-transsexuality pill) -------------> Unhealthy, poorly adjusted individual   

When it would in fact lead to this:
1) Body is healthy -------------> Adjust mind (anti-transsexuality pill) ------------->Healthy, well-adjusted individual

Either way, whether i am a man or woman, i would rather not feel the symptoms of being TS, that is a cure in my book.

[Summerfall]

Not take it??!!? are you serious.. i mean really, WOW~ If there was a pill that would have allowed me to live as a normal functioning man and feel the same way i do (respectively) living as a woman, I would take that sucker in a heart beat.  You are saying you would WANT to go through HRT and health risks involved, the social stigma, the ridicule, the depression about the uncertainty of the outcome of the treatment, the pain of surgery and recovery, the respective stigma dealing with relationships, not to mention money and other outside influences?!?!? I am sorry, i think that would be crazy...  Its like saying I CHOOSE TO SUFFER PAIN EVEN THOUGH THERE IS A PAINLESS CURE..... huh?!?!

Your reasoning is also flawed in you think the pill would lead to this:
1) Body is healthy -------------> Adjust mind (anti-transsexuality pill) -------------> Unhealthy, poorly adjusted individual   

When it would in fact lead to this:
1) Body is healthy -------------> Adjust mind (anti-transsexuality pill) ------------->Healthy, well-adjusted individual

Either way, whether i am a man or woman, i would rather not feel the symptoms of being TS, that is a cure in my book.

I don't think that a pill would be very effective at consciously and subconsciously reconciling years of mentally falling into one gender category and then suddenly falling into another, no matter how much it made the new gender match the old body. To get those kind of results, it would require something closer to a total system overhaul of the mind, and to me that would not be treatment resulting in health. My gender identity is very much part of my personal identity at this point (although like many of us, I tried to pretend that wasn't the case, spending quite some time in denial), and replacing it would not be something I could cope with.

I suspect that anyone who took such a pill would feel a new kind of incongruity, but rather than between the mind and body which is treatable, it would be between the mind and itself which could be much more sinister.

[Izumi]

I don't think that a pill would be very effective at consciously and subconsciously reconciling years of mentally falling into one gender category and then suddenly falling into another, no matter how much it made the new gender match the old body. To get those kind of results, it would require something closer to a total system overhaul of the mind, and to me that would not be treatment resulting in health. My gender identity is very much part of my personal identity at this point (although like many of us, I tried to pretend that wasn't the case, spending quite some time in denial), and replacing it would not be something I could cope with.

I suspect that anyone who took such a pill would feel a new kind of incongruity, but rather than between the mind and body which is treatable, it would be between the mind and itself which could be much more sinister.

Its kind of funny but HRT, SRS, FFS give you the same peace of mind, and you ASSUME that the pill wont do it.  If a pill was as effective as the process we have to take now, would you take it? Thats right, you would be a fully functioning guy, not feel any symptom of GID, be able to understand guys and compete on their level with no stress or anxiety, it would be like you have always been born male, you wouldnt take that over the alternative? 

Think of the reason you are transitioning at all, to be yourself, if you could be that way without transition would you?  Thats the PILL you speak of, you question effectiveness i am saying its 100% just as effective as transitioning? do you take it now?

[cynthialee]

It would be pretty much an unethical thing to give said pill to adults and teens. I could see giving a 2 or 3 year old said pill but after a certain point we have to take into acount a person has a set personality. Also the incongruence caused to someone who already had an established gender self identity would be rather vicious I would wager.

Personaly I am of the opinion that TS is a trait that the organism known as humanity developed many eons ago. We had been the shaman and priest class of so many societies. In societies that do not have such rigid gender rules our peers in these places handle this condition much better than we in the west do. Anyways.... we are natural shaman, counsilers of our peers and confidants.
There is pain in being TS but there is also an insight and wisdom gained that our cisgender peers do not have. It is a blessing wraped inside a curse. I wouldn't wish this on an enemy but I wouldn't give it up either. So I would not take that pill.

[Fencesitter]

@Julie Marie
@Summerfall

Congrats, you have convinced me. I just never thought much about whether it was a disorder or not as quite a number of my friends etc. when I was in my early 20ies happened to be transgendered or genderqueer. So I thought it was about as common and "normal" as, say, being left-handed. And later in my life, I did not think about whether it is a mental disorder or not. Your arguments make more sense than mine.

Now back to the pill. A pill which would change my gender for 1 week, I would take it immediately. But then, I would also take a pill which changes me into a toad for a week just to see what it's like to be a toad.

[cynthialee]

I would wager that you would be mad as a hatter during that week.

[spacial]

I think we're losing the point here and drifting off into fantasy.

There is no pill and never will be.

The causes are many. Even if some causes can be pinned down, that will exclude many others with similar symptoms. We should remember, from the writings on these pages, that many people experience their gender Dysphora is different ways.

By allowing ourselves to remain in the hands of the mental illness industry, we subject ourselves to their judgements and diagnosis. People can go on till the cows come home about how mental illness doesn't carry a stigma.

Mental illness means crazy person. It means we will be subject to enforced incarceration in mental hospitals. Those of you in the US should be particularly worried about this since yours are about 50 or 60 years behind everyone else.'

mental hospitals mean ECT and drugs. It mean a lifetime, being labeled as unstable.

Don't allow yourselves to be under any illusions. The nature of gender dysphoria will qualify you for ECT.

ECT is just an electrical lobotomy. Forget the nonsense you may have read or heard. ECT burns off brain cells.

ECT works well for many depressive conditions. People with depressive conditions which involved rumination or obsessive thoughts respond very well to ECT.

ECT for some with Gender Dysphoria may eliminate their condition. It is unlikely to be suitable for all though.

Some types of psychology, delivered by some types of psychologist can create a resolution. Though I have never sought nor been given any sort of treatment for gender dysphoria, the approach I use would be the sort recommended.

Some drugs may be tried. Male hormones. Some types of anti-depressents. Several anti-psychotic drugs might work.

Then there is the more expensve, completely irreversable and socially drastic option of surgery.

That is the issue here.

[Izumi]

It would be pretty much an unethical thing to give said pill to adults and teens. I could see giving a 2 or 3 year old said pill but after a certain point we have to take into acount a person has a set personality. Also the incongruence caused to someone who already had an established gender self identity would be rather vicious I would wager.

Personaly I am of the opinion that TS is a trait that the organism known as humanity developed many eons ago. We had been the shaman and priest class of so many societies. In societies that do not have such rigid gender rules our peers in these places handle this condition much better than we in the west do. Anyways.... we are natural shaman, counsilers of our peers and confidants.
There is pain in being TS but there is also an insight and wisdom gained that our cisgender peers do not have. It is a blessing wraped inside a curse. I wouldn't wish this on an enemy but I wouldn't give it up either. So I would not take that pill.

Wow, really wow, so you wouldn't transition to get better, you would transition for what.... WISDOM?  The pill would cure you, completely and 100% make you like everyone else, its not fake, your still you, your brain just works correctly with your body in gender idenity issues, your GID poof gone, your happy being who you are, just like your happy who you are now? or wait... are you happy? or are you taking pills to make you happy.  The end result is still the same~ take anti-TS pill be a normal happy person, Transition, be a normal happy person.. with those two choice, knowing what transitioning means, can HONESTLY with sound mind and body pick transitioning? if you are you got other problems~ or you just like pain and suffering.

You are who you think you are now because of chemicals triggering neurons in your brain which fire off signals left and right, up and down.  If a pill rearranged those signals and you would still feel like you, then what does it matter?  You would still want to go through the pain? that is seriously beyond me~ We are what our various systems internally say we are.... the only reason you think you even exist is because your brain tells you so... think about it, the real world outside might be completely different and you would never know it.  The color red might be yellow to another person, you would think thats normal, people cured of certain diseases still feel normal even after, but everyone else says their different.  So if a pill could make you normal and not any different from anyone else, why in the hell would you want to go through the pain of transition?  You would still be you either way.

[Izumi]

I think we're losing the point here and drifting off into fantasy.

There is no pill and never will be.

The causes are many. Even if some causes can be pinned down, that will exclude many others with similar symptoms. We should remember, from the writings on these pages, that many people experience their gender Dysphora is different ways.

By allowing ourselves to remain in the hands of the mental illness industry, we subject ourselves to their judgements and diagnosis. People can go on till the cows come home about how mental illness doesn't carry a stigma.

Mental illness means crazy person. It means we will be subject to enforced incarceration in mental hospitals. Those of you in the US should be particularly worried about this since yours are about 50 or 60 years behind everyone else.'

mental hospitals mean ECT and drugs. It mean a lifetime, being labeled as unstable.

Don't allow yourselves to be under any illusions. The nature of gender dysphoria will qualify you for ECT.

ECT is just an electrical lobotomy. Forget the nonsense you may have read or heard. ECT burns off brain cells.

ECT works well for many depressive conditions. People with depressive conditions which involved rumination or obsessive thoughts respond very well to ECT.

ECT for some with Gender Dysphoria may eliminate their condition. It is unlikely to be suitable for all though.

Some types of psychology, delivered by some types of psychologist can create a resolution. Though I have never sought nor been given any sort of treatment for gender dysphoria, the approach I use would be the sort recommended.

Some drugs may be tried. Male hormones. Some types of anti-depressents. Several anti-psychotic drugs might work.

Then there is the more expensve, completely irreversable and socially drastic option of surgery.

That is the issue here.

The point is not so much is it a mental illness as much as, is it a physical one.  Is TS a physically created defect which has the symptoms of depression, anxiety, and GID.  If that is the case its no different from treating any other defect or disease.  People who are born not being able to process one thing or another get shots they need to live, if they dont take the shots their symptoms will appear.  For a person suffering from TS the same is true is it not? i would say in most cases.  Being born with TS leads to having its symptoms which are mental in nature and not physical, however, the symptoms can be cured with proper treatment, but the TS cannot.  So a treatable mental illness caused by genetics and the inability to process androgens correctly sounds more of a medical condition then a mental one. 

So the question would not be is it a mental illness, the question is, it a medical (physical) illness, in getting it labeled as such, it opens more doors and you dont get labeled as crazy at the same time.  Hey, i had GID, but now its gone after i got treatment for my TS.  Sounds better doesnt it?

[spacial]

With respect, I think you're missing the issue.

GID is not caused by any single factor. There are no causes which have been found to affect even a majority.

This is a situation which can only really be identified by its symptoms. Even then, there are so many variations in symptoms, severity and so on. Some GID sufferers are sexually attracted to those of their birth sex, others the opposite. Some say their attractions have changed after treatment other not. Some seek full treatement, others partial, others almost none. Some cope with it, some become desperate and very depressed.

Many of us report that our awareness started very young, about 4 years is quite common for those born male, a bit older for those born female. Others report their awareness came much later. Again, there is no consistance in how each of these groups experience their GID or how well they cope.

Sadly, US psychiatry seems to like tidy labels. They like to have a badge which they can pin, even when that badge is clearly preposterus.

If I lived in the US, even though I am in my mid 50s, happily married, reasonably stable and coping well with my GID, I would be subject to enforced incarceration in a mental hospital, being tied up, drugged,  then enforced treatment at the discresion of some psychiatrist.

That is the issue.

[Asfsd4214]

Obviously I cannot speak for everybody, but for me the gender dysphoria and the social stigma are two separate things.

By gender dysphoria I mean the extreme discomfort that I feel with my body and especially its primary and secondary sexual characteristics. I find having the body that I do very painful at times, and I've spend much of my life desperate to have a female body rather than a male one. The  dissonance that I feel when looking in the mirror is not a social problem, although we clearly also have social problems as well. It's just that for me by far the biggest issue is and always has been the strong sense that my body is not right.

Exactly.