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Transsexual Lies

Started by Britney_413, September 13, 2010, 01:05:37 AM

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MillieB

Fencesitter,

That really is my point though, some women do have to trade their dignity to get by in this world, particulaly in poorer parts of the world, none more so than trans women with the inherant costs involved. They do what they need to do and no one calls into question the gender identity of cis women for this. Their morality maybe, but not their whole identity.

Also again their is this thing about trans women not being transsexual but rather fetishists as if the two are mutualy exclusive and their are absolutely no female fetishists, there are plenty and this is accepted for cis women but not for trans women, it just doesn't make any sense to me. Okay, I'll accept that it is a minefield and sometimes people are cross dressing just for sexual purposes but to be honest, I have never met one who claims to be transsexual so what's the harm.

But I will say again that I don't think that finacial need or personal preference have a great deal to do with our gender identity and I think that we get judged by a completely unrealistic and frankly sexist viewpoint of femininity that cis women would never put up with.
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Fencesitter

Quote from: MillieB on September 15, 2010, 04:21:19 PM
Fencesitter,

That really is my point though, some women do have to trade their dignity to get by in this world, particulaly in poorer parts of the world, none more so than trans women with the inherant costs involved. They do what they need to do and no one calls into question the gender identity of cis women for this. Their morality maybe, but not their whole identity.

Also again their is this thing about trans women not being transsexual but rather fetishists as if the two are mutualy exclusive and their are absolutely no female fetishists, there are plenty and this is accepted for cis women but not for trans women, it just doesn't make any sense to me. Okay, I'll accept that it is a minefield and sometimes people are cross dressing just for sexual purposes but to be honest, I have never met one who claims to be transsexual so what's the harm.

But I will say again that I don't think that finacial need or personal preference have a great deal to do with our gender identity and I think that we get judged by a completely unrealistic and frankly sexist viewpoint of femininity that cis women would never put up with.

Quite my opinion. And of course, yes, there are female fetishists as well, but I think in the shrinks' surveys, you hardly ever hear from them as females are usually raised into a gender role where they cannot admit their own sexual interests as soon as it's not the really nice but boring every-day stuff. Women can be quite kinky, but they won't admit it easilly. Hell, even I get off on putting on female stuff if it's exactly the right things. Maybe that even may have made me delay my transition ("Okay, body and mind don't match and that's a pain... a really bad pain... but at least I can wear sexy stuff now as a female whenever I want to and it makes me hot - Gothic style, nylons, mesh hoses etc."). Transvestitic fetishism with an additional quirk... Please don't ask me about my outfits then.  ;D And I guess most shrinks would be challenged with this in terms of open-mindedness so I never disclosed it. Why should I anyway?

But apart from that, I'd not judge someone morally if they need to get money and don't steal it, but prostitute themselves. You cannot make money fast easily other than this way. And it's a fair trade - you trade with the customer, you agree, you provide service and get paid. No stealing, bribery or whatsoever. They may lose some of their dignity over time, but morality is something completely different. Fair trade is okay. I don't see a moral issue there in itself - as long as you take care of yourself , make it safer etc. It's just business, though a very difficult business.
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ggina

The problem is, that some people just want to have everything as fast as they can. Anybody can become a CD/DQ/whatever overnight but nobody can become a woman :)

g
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Fencesitter

Quote from: ggina on September 15, 2010, 05:03:46 PM
The problem is, that some people just want to have everything as fast as they can. Anybody can become a CD/DQ/whatever overnight but nobody can become a woman :)

g

That's true. Feleling like one is a women is one thing. Passing as a woman another thing. And socializing as a woman, whatever that means in your case, a third thing.

Swap the genders and I can tell you, I have trouble socializing with the third thing. As long as it's not beneath the gay scene (where I hung around all the time before transition - my basic problem is, how do straight people socialize? I almost never went out with them).
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rejennyrated

Quote from: MillieB on September 15, 2010, 04:21:19 PM
I think that we get judged by a completely unrealistic and frankly sexist viewpoint of femininity that cis women would never put up with.
Some of US don't put up with it either!

I make no attempt to conform to anyone else's ideas of how I "should" behave, not indeed do I take prisoners if someone makes the mistake of trying to judge me. That is partly why I fell out so comprehensively with my first gender shrink in 1976. He made the mistake of trying to impose his view of womanhood as a precondition of helping me. I told him that if he seriously expected me to become all frills and curls just to please him then I thought that he was crazier than I was.

Simply put, I have always told anyone who tries to judge me that how they may choose to view me is of no concern to me, since I cannot control their perceptions. How I perceive myself is the only thing of any importance to me. If I'm happy with me then any thing else is someone else's problem!

Oh and being slightly pedantic... (for which I apologise in advance)
Quote from: ggina on September 15, 2010, 05:03:46 PM
The problem is, that some people just want to have everything as fast as they can. Anybody can become a CD/DQ/whatever overnight but nobody can become a woman :)
To my mind no one "becomes" a woman. Someone either is one already, or they never will be.

The surgery and hormones just help others to see what was always there, but hidden by the physical stuff.

I was one of those who, when I finally did the medical process, broke records for speed... but of course that did follow a childhood which had been lived very openly as trans - and which had in a very real sense led me to that point as day follows night! So in anther way it wasn't so quick at all.

I suppose what I am trying to point out is that speed is rather a point of interpretation. Did I achieve SRS in about 6 months flat - or did it in fact take me 19 long years of gradual transition?

Seen from one perspective it was the former. I would argue however that that ignores the fact that I had been out since age 5... and so in fact it took me 19 years.
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K8

I should clarify:
Quote from: K8 on September 15, 2010, 09:39:03 AM
[I use the term "ordinary woman" to denote a woman who is accepted as a woman in mainstream society.]

To me, an "ordinary woman" is a woman who is seen as a woman, which includes Lady Gaga, KD Lang, Hillary Clinton, Queen Elizabeth II, etc.  There is a huge range, and as transwomen we can be as we choose and probably fit into that range somewhere.  I lived in a box most of my life and don't intend to move into another.  Appearing to be a man, I couldn't be me.  As a woman I can be who I am and still be a woman.

The original question was, I think, would you take the advice of a drag queen hooker performer who had no intention of getting SRS if you want to transition?  Well, if you want to transition to being a drag queen hooker performer with no intention of getting SRS, perhaps you would.  Otherwise, I think there are other role models available.

- Kate
Life is a pilgrimage.
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Lacey Lynne

Kudos to all of you for your great posts here. 

This is a total education for me, reading all of your posts.  Truly, I have nothing to add inasmuch as I'm way out of my depth here.  Historically, I've always loathed and detested bars and/or clubs with a purple passion and have avoided them like the plague. 

In my youth, I did go several times with friends who were way into it.  They loved it.  I did not.  That's just me.  By no means do I judge any of you here who enjoy bar and/or club life.  To each their own.  Live and let live.  You do your thing; I'll do mine.  We respect each other.

Don't get me wrong, I'd do the club scene with a trans-sister or trans-brother who wanted to check it out.  I'm not a complete fuddy-duddy (That's debatable!).  It's just not my thing though.  Like, what the heck would I do there?  Darned if I know.  Probably get bored and annoyed.  Yes, I'm a stick in the mud at bars and clubs.  However, in my youth, I way enjoyed the hell out of the topless clubs in the rare times when friends dragged me along.  Hey, I'm ALWAYS up for checking out hot babes.    :D

The points several of you made about gay/trans clubs being good going-out places for transitioning t-people are very well made.  I must agree with this.  Truthfully, I need to do this, and one of our sisters here has most graciously offered to take me out to do just that.  I will most certainly go to them with her.  Moreover, I'll make a concerted effort to get into it and enjoy the experience.  She's helped me so much that I way owe her that much.  Also, since I identify as a lesbian, where would I find potential friends?  Clubs?  Maybe.  LGBT functions?  Doubt it. 

Thanks for your posts.  They're great.  Learned a lot.    :)
Believe.  Persist.  Arrive.    :D



Julie Vu (Princess Joules) Rocks!  "Hi, Sunshine Sparkle Faces!" she says!
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rejennyrated

Yes - good points Lacey. I should perhaps confess at this point that I have never done bar culture either.

In fact the only time I went to one it was when I was already long postop and with Russell who was of course a gender shrink. They had invited him to go and talk to the clientele about the medical processes available. I went along as his plus one, kind of a cross between being his SO and his bodyguard. ;) (Inevitably I got lots of people buying free drinks for me... ;D) In fact now I think about it I think by then Alison was working as his PA so she probably went too - so he had two bodyguards! Dangerous places these bars you know.  :laugh:

Going with Russell gave me a rather different take on the experience, which I must admit was a bit of an eye opener. I saw the vast range that exists in this world, and although there is no way that I would fit into that scene I would never sit judgement on it any more than I would let them try to make me one of them. We were different, and to be different is not wrong.

I have my doubts if transition, and the inevitable compromises involved would suit many of them. I felt that some of better looking ones might have become the type who ended up having one operation after another in search of the kind of cosmetic perfection that is simply not yet within the compass of our attainment but I could be wrong about that.

I think the thing is, its a big world, and the important thing is to figure out where YOU fit into it, then go there and don't worry about what someone else does. Let them have their space and be happy doing their thing, while you be happy in yours and doing yours. That's why, ultimately, I don't claim to be a pure-blood trans. Rather I see myself as occupying my own space which encompasses little bits of trans, intersex, Bisexual, cis woman, Androgyne etc etc. I'm a one off - just as you all are. So lets rest secure in that and not worry about others who are different.
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FairyGirl

Quote from: K8 on September 15, 2010, 06:05:02 PMThe original question was, I think, would you take the advice of a drag queen hooker performer who had no intention of getting SRS if you want to transition?  Well, if you want to transition to being a drag queen hooker performer with no intention of getting SRS, perhaps you would.  Otherwise, I think there are other role models available.

- Kate

Kate that is so true, and my surgeon Dr. Christine McGinn and your surgeon Dr. Marci Bowers are excellent examples of good, positive, role models. There are others, women and men who have transitioned completely and who live happy, fulfilling lives helping others. These are the people I look up to, and as I've said many times here, Dr. McGinn is totally my hero.

Btw, look for Dr. McGinn on the Oprah Winfrey Show coming up on or around Sept. 29th.


Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
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barbie

Quote from: Britney_413 on September 13, 2010, 01:05:37 AM
What do women in general do? Do they go to gay bars every weekend in over-feminine outfits with excessive makeup on and do shows? Do they find prostitution and pornography interesting for their careers? No they don't. What do they do? They get up and go to work in the morning. They pay their bills and pay their taxes. They date and fall in love. They were jeans and a shirt to a gas station and something sexy for a night out on the town. They don't need excessive makeup, ultra-feminine clothes, and extremely large breasts, and men over every night to feel more like a woman. They don't need that because they are women, period. Well a true transwoman is simply a woman and should generally think, act, and be like any other woman in society not including the special challenges and alterations that come with transtition.

I am not quite sure how I would feel about the bars when I have a chance to go there. But ordinary life style is like it. I usually wear jeans and a shirt, and something sexy for a night in every one month. No excessive makeups and etc.

Some differences are:
1) I am biologically male
2) I exercise much more than ordinary women do
3) I wear makeup far less than ordinary women here do
4) I am sexually attracted to women

I have never met other TG face to face in my life time, but I wish to do it. I am a rather isolated TG, but mix well with other cisgender people.

Barbie~~
Just do it.
  • skype:barbie?call
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MillieB

Jenny, thank you, you said what I am too semi literate to say.

K8, I take your point but I just felt that the OP raised an awful lot more questions than the one that you stated and I thought that it was worth discussing.

I don't do bar culture either, I don't even drink. I just have no problem with those who do, and as regards role models, I've got loads, trans women, trans men, cis women/men, I just go for those that I admire.

As far as the career goes, I'm a counsellor and transsexual so gender therapy interests me. But only because I'd make a lousy pole dancer! :laugh:

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Lacey Lynne

#51
@ rejennyrated:

Jen, you've done it again:  Wiser words were never spoken.  I whole-heartedly agree, sis!    :D

@ barbie:

Barb, we have many similarities in outlook.  Judging by your photo, we look much alike, physique-wise.  I appear very much like you do in your avatar photo back-portrait view here. 

@ Sandy:

Okay, 'fess up, Sandy.  Was Dr. McGinn your surgeon?  You're lucky if she was!    ;)

@ Everyone:

Live and let live.  I'm a self-confessed and self-professed nerd who is altogether and thoroughly content in my nerdom.  Because of that, many people do not and will not like me much.  That's fine.  I like them anyway.  To each their own.  Peace to all.    ;)
Believe.  Persist.  Arrive.    :D



Julie Vu (Princess Joules) Rocks!  "Hi, Sunshine Sparkle Faces!" she says!
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Sandy

Quote from: FairyGirl on January 26, 1974, 03:37:13 PM
Btw, look for Dr. McGinn on the Oprah Winfrey Show coming up on or around Sept. 29th.

Let me know when that is I'll set my DVR!

-Sandy(she's my hero too!)
Out of the darkness, into the light.
Following my bliss.
I am complete...
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ggina

Quote
Oh and being slightly pedantic... (for which I apologise in advance)
To my mind no one "becomes" a woman. Someone either is one already, or they never will be.

accepted :) You are absolutely right of course, but I was trying to point at people who think this is possible, they just put on some heels and a dress and they're there. It's okay, no problem with it, but their definition of woman is different from ours and one is hard pressed to find any common ground between the two.

Quote
I would argue however that that ignores the fact that I had been out since age 5... and so in fact it took me 19 years.

I'd rather stick to the 6 months, it sounds much more bearable :)

Quote
To each their own.  Live and let live.  You do your thing; I'll do mine.  We respect each other.

I've never met any of those people we're talking about here so I don't really care what they're up to; they can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt my territory. I guess some call this respect in the civilized world :)


g
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Sandy

Quote from: LaceyLynne on September 16, 2010, 02:18:16 PM
@ Sandy:

Okay, 'fess up, Sandy.  Was Dr. McGinn your surgeon?  You're lucky if she was!    ;)


Lacey:

Yes, the good doctor, McGinn was my surgeon.  I was her fifth patient that she had as an independent surgeon.  She is marvelous!  A witty and dedicated woman who feels she has the best job in the world because she gets to help so many.

And yes, I do feel very lucky!

-Sandy(proud girl number 5!)
Out of the darkness, into the light.
Following my bliss.
I am complete...
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Sandy

Quote from: FairyGirl on September 16, 2010, 09:12:12 AM
Btw, look for Dr. McGinn on the Oprah Winfrey Show coming up on or around Sept. 29th.

I've scanned Oprah's and Dr. McGinn's sites, but I haven't found any mention of Dr. McGinn making an appearance any time soon.

So if anyone has any information let me know ASAP!

Thanks!

-Sandy
Out of the darkness, into the light.
Following my bliss.
I am complete...
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Mara

Just out of curiosity, what's the average education level of these people who identify as transsexual and also as CD/TV/DQ?  How much time do they spend on the internet?  Who are their friends?  What culture do they come from?  How much did their families equip them to deal with the world, and what kind of support networks do they have?

It would seem that a lot of these women act like that because they think they're expected to act like that.  I know cisgender women who act just like that.  Meaning, sex is their livelihood, so they'll abuse their body and mind and spend their lives miserable, pretending to be people they're not.  If such women could grow penises, some of them might would consider it even if they subconsciously hate the concept, because they feel they have to put their job above everything else.

In addition to feeling they need to do it for sex work, some of these people really just might not know much about transsexualism, transvestisim, crossdressing, performing in drag, being genderqueer or androgyne or bigender, or that there's a difference.  I mean, I have an M.A. in history and am transsexual, and I didn't know all the categories until recently, and even though I consciously knew it wasn't true, subconsciously I had internalized "transsexual = tranvestite so I couldn't possibly be transsexual, right?  I don't even care about clothes all that much."  Not to sound arrogant, but I've actually studied LGBT issues academically a little bit, and I didn't even know all this.  I imagine that a trans girl raised in poverty by an abusive family and then kicked out on the streets when she was sixteen might just have a hard time understanding if she's really trans or if she's something else.

Also, with the cisgender women like this I know, there's often a lot of mental illness and/or drug addiction involved, and it heavily impairs their judgement.  Some of them honestly are just greedy people who knowingly engage in risky behavior, but most really don't seem to know any better, or are so depressed and screwed up that they lack the ability to avoid it, or are actually not in complete touch with reality and haven't been diagnosed or can't get the medicine they need.

So, basically, a lot of these people are ignorant and screwed up, but it's not necessarily their fault.  When you're surrounded by screwed up people, it's hard to keep things in perspective, even if you have every educational advantage in the world and no severe mental illness and don't need to do sex work.  If you actually are poorly educated, severely mentally ill without treatment, and desperate for money, it's even harder to think about things that many educated, middle-class trans people are focused on.

(Similar issue: a lot of homeless gay people aren't exactly concerned with the right to marry or some offensive stereotypes on Desperate Housewives.)
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Lacey Lynne

Quote from: Sandy on September 17, 2010, 02:30:20 PM
Lacey:

Yes, the good doctor, McGinn was my surgeon.  I was her fifth patient that she had as an independent surgeon.  She is marvelous!  A witty and dedicated woman who feels she has the best job in the world because she gets to help so many.

And yes, I do feel very lucky!

-Sandy(proud girl number 5!)

Sandy:

That is AMAZING!     ::)

Originally, I was leaning in the direction of choosing Marci Bowers; however, I recently researched and found photographs of "finished products" of several of the top SRS/GRS M-T-F surgeons online.  Some of Marci's work left me more than a little ambivalent about her work.  Don't get me wrong:  I think she's an amazing person.

Toby Meltzer's work really impressed me.  Some of his "finished products" were moreorless indiscernable to the untutored eye from the vulvae of natal females.  Amazing artistry!  I'm leaning toward selecting him; however, he has a long waiting period and does not accept insurance payments.  Both are big bummers, of course.  Still, his work is sheer artistry from what I've seen of it.

HOWEVER, your personal testimonial lauding the Good Doctor McGinn weighs VERY heavily in favor of my choosing her to do my SRS/GRS in the event that I actually have it done, and THAT'S the plain truth.     :D

Finances, of course, are a major factor affecting the overall decision.  Also, the idea of the preop pelvic-area electrolysis scares the livin' bejesus out of me!    :-\

Believe.  Persist.  Arrive.    :D



Julie Vu (Princess Joules) Rocks!  "Hi, Sunshine Sparkle Faces!" she says!
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