Being a masculine woman vs. FTM?

[Al James]

Funnily enough it was a post about growing old as a woman on here that made me decide i was doing the right thing almost a year ago. Yes i still think sometimes it would be easier to carry on as i am but it would also be a slow death of me. A little bit more of me dying each time i get she'd or her'ed. i'm not just masculine- i'm a man and nothing is ever gonna change that

[jmaxley]

Maybe we should have a "questions to ask yourself" entry in the wiki or somewhere. "What would you do if you knew you wouldn't lose anything?" "How do you see yourself in old age?" Like that.

That's a great idea.

[Lewis]

My friends who transitioned got to a point where they were willing to risk their family and their future love life because they couldn't go on as they were.

This is the point I got to at the end of last year. I realised then that even if I did lose everyone and everything in my life, I couldn't carry on the way I was, any more. It just wasn't enough. I wouldn't be happy losing my family, but I would be even less happy forcing myself to live as female for the rest of my life.

But that wasn't always the case, and it may just be the case that the timing isn't right for you (Konnor) yet. It's not a decision you have to make now or never, you can put it off until later. Maybe in time, you'll become more settled about it.

[Konnor]

Thanks again for all the advice everyone!!

@sneakers/Arch...I guess I don't really know. Ideally, I would definitely be an old man. This is going to sound horrible, but I feel like I can either live my life as a guy, OR I can live as a masculine woman and get married/have kids. I'm really afraid that if I transition I will be alone forever because no one can deal with all my issues. (trans, depression, anxiety, etc) I guess I'm just a bit jaded from my relationship history, because they have all left because of trans-related issues and I'm not even really out yet.

@Arch...Thank you for your response, it really made me think. I don't really care about the name, yeah I like Konnor but my birthname is ok. But I do like male pronouns. The name thing is what makes me wonder if I could be ok as a masculine female, getting mistaken for a guy but still basically living as a woman. I get what you're saying about the outcast label, and it makes me feel better that you have a lot of trans mates that are happy and in relationships.

I haven't changed my name yet. I'm pretty far from a step that big. I'm only out to my parents, siblings, GLBT group at school, exes, and a few very close friends. I have a huge Catholic family whom I will probably have to come out to all at once, and the outlook is not good that they will support me or even let me stay "in the family". I honestly don't know about the name stuff at my school, but it's very small so I don't think it would be too big of a deal to change my name.

Yeah, I know what you mean about my therapist. I've been going to her since I was like 10 though, and she knows my past and how my brain works. I just hate to give all that up in order to find someone who is better versed in transgender related topics. Plus the closest gender therapist is about 2 hours away, and I seriously doubt my parents would let me see someone specifically for my trans issues. I know I just need to give it time, but it's hard to try to live life in this limbo. I just want to pick a side and get on with my life.

Thanks again everyone. I really appreciate all the personal stories. It makes me feel less alone. 

[Silver]

I'm really afraid that if I transition I will be alone forever because no one can deal with all my issues. (trans, depression, anxiety, etc)

I would assume you'd be more depressed/anxious if you had to live as somebody you knew yourself to not be. Of course, I don't know, but that's how it seems to work.

[Arch]

I know of another aspect that a lot of younger guys don't seem to consider. When they are young, they are frequently "mistaken" for male. Even into our thirties, we might be seen by lots of people as a teenager with a delayed puberty. Then we start to get older, and that happens less and less often. If our bodies settle into middle age, our chests tend to get bigger, and so do our hips and other parts of the body. Our voices never change and our beards never sprout. Suddenly we realize that nobody has called us "sir" or "he" in a long, long time.

When I was younger, those "he" moments went a long way toward keeping me sane enough to keep going. Then they mostly stopped--well, the "mistakes" happened less and less frequently. Many factors led to my last coming out and my decision to transition. That was one of them.

I've seen quite a few young guys on these boards (and a couple in person) who blustered around and bragged, "I pass just fine. I don't need transition." Well, the vast majority of them won't "pass" forever. And who wants to be mistaken for a late-blooming fourteen-year-old at thirty-two? That can have its own frustrations, at least for some of us. So if even occasional "passing" is important to you, just know that unless you're very unusual and lucky, it won't go on forever.

Konnor, I'm not trying to influence you one way or the other. I am NOT pushing you toward transition. But there are lots of angles you might not have considered. Adding up little bits of knowledge and other people's experiences helps you to make a more informed choice. I gather that this is why you started this thread in the first place.

Oh, and have you visited the androgyne part of town? The awesome folks there might have much more insight into certain things than the transsexuals do.

[Arch]

I would assume you'd be more depressed/anxious if you had to live as somebody you knew yourself to not be. Of course, I don't know, but that's how it seems to work.

Ditto...but you're talking about KNOWLEDGE, yes? I guess my question for Konnor is this: are you a confirmed transsexual who is simply deciding whether to transition, or are you still deciding whether you're transsexual at all? Or something else entirely, like an androgyne or a transsexual who can choose not to transition, or someone who wants to transition only partly or start HRT and then stop or have breast reduction instead of total removal? You actually have lots of choices with regard to how long you want to go on HRT and which procedures you'll undergo. You can't precisely pinpoint HRT effects, but you can get pretty close.

One thing that helped me to decide to start HRT was the knowledge that I could stop at any time. Surgery is a bit different, but you can always get implants after top surgery if you later decide that you wanted those body parts after all. Implants are not the same, of course, and the cost of having two top surgeries is something to consider, but you can mostly go back at that point. (Bottom surgery is a whole other ball game.)

[rejennyrated]

Pardon my interloping here but I think it depends on how you feel about your physical appearance actually. At least it did for me!

I transitioned kind of ItF (intersex to female) precisely because I wanted to be a (moderately) masculine woman and wasn't happy being a middle of the road pseudo male.

Ok I'm a long way from being "butch" but I am definitely a tomboy, I am ULTRA low maintenance, and I am very practical and down to earth. Yet physically it was terribly important to me that my body was clearly perceived as unambiguously female.

For example this afternoon I spend my time stripping down and rebuilding a 3.5 HP Briggs & Stratton Lawn Mower engine. loads of oil - loads of cuts and bruises - loads of mild swearing! I haven't had so much fun for ages! 

So my five cents opinion is that whatever direction you transition in the need to physically transition actually has very little correlation with your need to be a particular gender and everything to do with your need to be seen as a particular SEX.

[Konnor]

@Arch...Bleh! I never thought of some of the stuff you posted about, obviously. Yeah I pass now but you're right, I don't want to look like a 14 year old forever. It's ok for people to think I'm 16 now, when I'm only 20, but I reckon it will drive me absolutely mad when I'm like 30. I will definitely check out the androgyne boards, haven't done much of that yet.

are you a confirmed transsexual who is simply deciding whether to transition, or are you still deciding whether you're transsexual at all? Or something else entirely, like an androgyne or a transsexual who can choose not to transition, or someone who wants to transition only partly or start HRT and then stop or have breast reduction instead of total removal?

I guess I'm trying to figure out everything. I do think I am trans, because of the way I view my body/prefer male pronouns/desire T and top surgery/desire to be seen as male. So I guess I'm trying to figure out if I can be happy without transitioning, being an androgyne, or just being a very masculine female.

@rejennyrated...I am ok with my physical appearance right now. But that's because I can bind and pack and be completely read as male to those who don't know me. I think maybe when I get older and don't pass as easily, that will get to me. I understand what you're saying that just because I have some "female" traits, I can still be a guy. Thanks for your story.

Thanks again everyone!!!

[insideontheoutside]

I know of another aspect that a lot of younger guys don't seem to consider. When they are young, they are frequently "mistaken" for male. Even into our thirties, we might be seen by lots of people as a teenager with a delayed puberty. Then we start to get older, and that happens less and less often. If our bodies settle into middle age, our chests tend to get bigger, and so do our hips and other parts of the body. Our voices never change and our beards never sprout. Suddenly we realize that nobody has called us "sir" or "he" in a long, long time.

This is another one that you can't really apply to everyone (and I'm definitely not young, even though I still look it - chalk that up to good genes though). Seriously, a lot of female-bodied people look more male as they age because of less estrogen production. Hell I know some ladies that have some pretty epic chin beards going on and they're not even trying - they're just like, 50  or something. Hormones change a lot the older you get.

I also think exercise is really important. The older you get the harder it is to lose fat - and if you have a female body there are certain areas the fat goes to. So I think if I keep up with exercising and staying fit before I get old, I don't think it's a problem. Actually, I'm pretty sure it won't be a problem for me personally (genetics + health + lifestyle).

[Arch]

This is another one that you can't really apply to everyone

I hope you're not under the misapprehension that I was saying this about everyone. I was very careful to qualify my statements.

[Arch]

I also think exercise is really important. The older you get the harder it is to lose fat - and if you have a female body there are certain areas the fat goes to. So if you keep up with exercising and staying fit before you get old, I don't think it's a problem. Actually, I'm pretty sure it won't be a problem (genetics + health + lifestyle).

Yes, this obviously isn't a problem for anybody, regardless of body style, metabolism, or hormone production.

[insideontheoutside]

I hope you're not under the misapprehension that I was saying this about everyone. I was very careful to qualify my statements.

Eh, I took it a little differently. "A lot" I consider to be a majority kind of qualifier.

As for the exercise part, I was tired when I wrote that and forgot to mention that was personal for ME so I went back and added that. Still, no reason to be snotty about it. I realize some people have problems with exercising, but nevertheless it is one way to avoid age-related body issues.

[Arch]

Eh, I took it a little differently. "A lot" I consider to be a majority kind of qualifier.

It was a "majority kind of qualifier." But it wasn't an absolute. And there were a few other qualifiers as well.

Still, no reason to be snotty about it.

I added the eyerolling emoticon so that you would know that I was gently poking you, not smacking you.

[insideontheoutside]

I added the eyerolling emoticon so that you would know that I was gently poking you, not smacking you.

Yeah that's cool. I guess I've just been feeling more and more that I don't really fit in and that my viewpoints are just different and a lot of times I'll say something and it's taken the wrong way.

[Sheila R]

What a completely fascinating thread - I send hugs to all of you.  My daughter Elizabeth, now Eli, has identified as male all her adult life and though I still see a beautiful woman in him, he passes easily.  Whenever he comes home, friends from the "olden days" assume he's his twin brother, Daniel!  I'm constantly amazed that he passes so well.  He STILL has ID that says Elizabeth, however, and I sometimes think is amused by confounding people at airports, etc., car rental agencies, etc.  He used to get really annoyed if family members inadvertently lapsed and used the wrong pronouns, and REALLY freaked if someone addressed him as "Liz" in front of a crowd (like his neighbours in New York) who never even considered him anything other than male!  But, since he's been in a relationship for a while with a level headed girl, he seems more relaxed with everything and everyone.  "Whatever" seems to be his attitude.  "I'll be whatever you want me to be - s'OK!" 
Still, we (family) work really hard at trying to see him as Eli and not "slipping".  I sometimes think that allowing people to think he's his twin is a way of avoiding the whole matter of explaining things.  I'm frankly hoping that one day he'll tackle the topic head on.  I've practised telling my own peers that I have a transgendered child getting everything from no reaction whatsoever to being asked what' it's like to have an "abomination" as progeny.  Gawd.  Once in a while, someone is curious enough to ask intelligent questions, but by and large - it's not a topic with which many are comfortable.  But, anyway - as far as this thread goes - Eli has always felt like a boy, though - he tells me - didn't always have the vocal skills to explain.  He's still emerging. Defintely a lot happier without boobs, but not apparently concerned about further reassignment surgery.  I suspect that eventually he'll change his name legally because one he goes to work, it will makre more sense.  However, there's always the possibility he'll continue to enjoy confounding people!  And, on that topic - I think I'll start another thread discussing "exhibitionistic behavior"!

[insideontheoutside]

What a completely fascinating thread - I send hugs to all of you.  My daughter Elizabeth, now Eli, has identified as male all her adult life and though I still see a beautiful woman in him, he passes easily.  Whenever he comes home, friends from the "olden days" assume he's his twin brother, Daniel!  I'm constantly amazed that he passes so well.  He STILL has ID that says Elizabeth, however, and I sometimes think is amused by confounding people at airports, etc., car rental agencies, etc.  He used to get really annoyed if family members inadvertently lapsed and used the wrong pronouns, and REALLY freaked if someone addressed him as "Liz" in front of a crowd (like his neighbours in New York) who never even considered him anything other than male!  But, since he's been in a relationship for a while with a level headed girl, he seems more relaxed with everything and everyone.  "Whatever" seems to be his attitude.  "I'll be whatever you want me to be - s'OK!" 
Still, we (family) work really hard at trying to see him as Eli and not "slipping".  I sometimes think that allowing people to think he's his twin is a way of avoiding the whole matter of explaining things.  I'm frankly hoping that one day he'll tackle the topic head on.  I've practised telling my own peers that I have a transgendered child getting everything from no reaction whatsoever to being asked what' it's like to have an "abomination" as progeny.  Gawd.  Once in a while, someone is curious enough to ask intelligent questions, but by and large - it's not a topic with which many are comfortable.  But, anyway - as far as this thread goes - Eli has always felt like a boy, though - he tells me - didn't always have the vocal skills to explain.  He's still emerging. Defintely a lot happier without boobs, but not apparently concerned about further reassignment surgery.  I suspect that eventually he'll change his name legally because one he goes to work, it will makre more sense.  However, there's always the possibility he'll continue to enjoy confounding people!  And, on that topic - I think I'll start another thread discussing "exhibitionistic behavior"!

Eli's really lucky to have you as a parent So many parents are just unwilling at all to accept that the little girl they gave birth to might not have been a little girl after all. I know I never really dealt with my parents about it because of the feeling that they just couldn't deal with it 100% (even though they allowed me to dress/act how I wanted to, there was a line for them). Luckily I got to that "whatever" point that Eli has on my own. Unfortunately I think we're all still a ways off as a society in general for 100% acceptance. I'm continually reminded how much society places on gender roles, etc.

Anyway, thanks for stopping by and telling us all that!

[Cowboi]

I guess I am in the minority because I feel like the difference is pretty clear. Being FTM does not mean butch+, it means you are male gendered and/or transitioning physically toward male. I think the difference should be obvious when you realize that not all trans men are masculine. Some are feminine, just like some cis men are feminine.

Well I agree with you, so maybe we can be a minority together

I think that yes there are lots of other identities too, but FTM is a very clear cut one. You have a female body but you're male. Rather you choose to transition in any way (physically or socially) is up to you, but no matter what choice you make you are still male when it comes to your gender identity. If your gender identity is not male then you are not FTM. It is not a big open identity, it's a very specific one, just because all of us don't follow the same path doesn't make the definition of what we are any different. We are people born into a female body who have a male brain.

I also do want to state that this response isn't really about you Konnor, obviously you are still trying to find yourself and that's cool. I don't want you to feel that this is me stating "no you're not FTM" you very well may be (not being you I obviously can't say what your gender identity is), with time you'll find the right path for you. There is nothing wrong with not being a woman and still not being FTM, there are things in between the two. However rather you choose to transition or not if you are male, if you see yourself as male, feel male, etc, you are still FTM.... it isn't the physical transition that makes a man a man

You'll find your way with time Konnor. Don't let fear rule your choices. And don't let the fear of who could love you for who you are hold you back either. There are lots of people who will love you for you regardless of rather you're physically male, female or somewhere in between. Do what you need to do for you, the more you accept yourself and act as yourself the more likely you are to find someone who really loves YOU because they'll be able to see who you are instead of what you may be pretending to be for others.

[Cowboi]

I feel like my last post was kind of random things mixed into one post? I don't know. I'm going to check back later and maybe try to respond again, I'm in a somewhat tired distracted mood and couldn't really keep my thoughts together and type them out too

[Arch]

Yeah that's cool. I guess I've just been feeling more and more that I don't really fit in and that my viewpoints are just different and a lot of times I'll say something and it's taken the wrong way.

Oh, dear. Maybe I've been coming across as more bristly than I realize. I apologize. I like good, healthy debate, and you can't really have that if everyone agrees.

We're all a little different. No two transsexuals are alike. Thank heaven. What would the trans world be like with hundreds of Arches running around? >>>Shudder<<<

(No, not the golden kind.)