How do you feel about the waiting period for HRT?

[GinaDouglas]

Being FORCED to participate in a diagnosic or anyother medical ballyhoo you do not agree with is a form of submision to a rape of the soul. Just because someone MAY get harmed is not a valid reason to hold me or anyone else back from what they want. I did not want to discuss my very personal feelings and thoughts with anyone I havent decided to do so with.

Thank you!  I have never been able to write about this topic, without feeling outraged.  Nobody has the right to make me get their permission to be myself.

I am a woman.  Period.  My mental competency is not automatically subject to question, with the burden of proof put upon me, because I have this birth defect.

You want your doctors' help/advice/approval/permission... fine.  You go and get it.  You don't have the right to tell me I need it because you do.  Every person who posted in favor of mandatory hoop jumping - How did you feel when you were a child and had to put on a sweater because your mother was cold?  Did it make you feel loved?  Well, when you do it to me today, it makes me feel insulted that you think I am a child.

What is the surcharge supposed to be to get a license to be trans?  What are the closing costs?  How dare WPATH want to milk me like a money-cow?

If society has an interest in protecting itself from people making bad decisions, where are the therapists' letters, doctor's notes and permission slips requirements to have sex, get married or have a child?  Can you imagine a doctor telling a woman that she can't have a child until she quits smoking and loses weight?  Or a three-month waiting period and two therapists' letters to get married.  No, Ms Prom Queen, you will need some more counseling before I will sign off and allow you to have sex.

[Alexmakenoise]

Off on the deep end.....

So, I have been thinking about this topic a lot recently ...and I have come to the conclusion ... which might be way out there for most of you ... why do we care if someone changes their gender?  Why is there so much wrapped around it all?  We allow people to alter their bodies in all sorts of ways -- tattoos, body piercing, splitting tongues, plastic surgery ... personally, if someone wants to change their body why does someone else have to give approval when in so many other ways we don't monitor or control body modification.

I know some would argue that it's a life changing experience and there is a lot that goes on with it ... but seriously would anyone selectively choose to go through all that if he/she really didn't feel it necessary?  Take medications for the rest of their life?  Save up tons of money for surgies that insurance won't cover.

I don't know .. and I imagine most would disagree with me..but I just feel people should have complete control over their bodies and not be forced to get permission from another person to do it

I agree with this.

I find it a bit disconcerting that there are so many prerequisites to transitioning, whereas people are free to alter their bodies drastically in just about any other way as long as they have the means to pay for it.  I think a waiting period for any significant and permanent change to one's body is a good idea.  But the waiting period should be a recommendation, not a a rule.  And the length of the recommended wait should vary depending on the procedure and the individual's situation.

[Cowboi]

I knew I would get HRT from my doctor due to the harm reduction clause in the SOC.

This is exactly the type of loop hole in the SOC that people have been bringing up from the beginning. There ARE ways to get around the 3 month period, which is just a suggested time period to begin with. The fact that we can get around it when/if necessary is actually one of the reasons why it is absurd to argue against it with some of the points that people have brought up. Suicidal? Well your story is an exact example of how one can get through quicker by understanding and knowing the SOC. It isn't the only way to get through but it is one way. The thing about the SOC that I think a lot of people are overlooking in this conversation is that it is not a for sure 100% it must be treated exactly this way for every single case scenario.

I am a woman.  Period.  My mental competency is not automatically subject to question, with the burden of proof put upon me, because I have this birth defect.

Sadly in our society your mental competency is automatically subject to question in almost every scenario. Rather you are on trial for murder or just don't fit into what society feels is "normal" (such as wanting to undergo irreversible physical changes to your gender) your competency is questioned. It isn't as if we transsexuals are the only people to face such issues. The fact that it isn't questioned in other circumstances doesn't make it right not to question us, it actually means it is probably best to question EVERYONE. Rather you are a cis woman who wants breast implants because you think it will raise your self image, a transsexual who wants HRT and SRS or someone who wants an abortion therapy can assist with ALL of these issues. Don't you think it would be better for a woman to learn her self worth without having to enlarge her breasts to make her feel better about herself? Wouldn't it be great if someone actually talked about all of their options with a therapist before we just allowed them to have an abortion? It would certainly help deal with the consequences of both actions. While it should not be REQUIRED it should definitely be heavily suggested, just as the 3 month waiting period for us to get HRT is only heavily suggested and not required.

You want your doctors' help/advice/approval/permission... fine.  You go and get it.  You don't have the right to tell me I need it because you do.  Every person who posted in favor of mandatory hoop jumping - How did you feel when you were a child and had to put on a sweater because your mother was cold?  Did it make you feel loved?  Well, when you do it to me today, it makes me feel insulted that you think I am a child.

Um, I guess we are on a totally different page here because YES I did feel loved when my mother tried to take care of me. That is her job, she's my MOTHER. When she made me wear a sweater as a child I might not have always liked it but I probably didn't get sick as often as I would have had I just been allowed to act as I chose to. Probably kept me from getting bronchitis or catching pneumonia a few times in my life. If I didn't like it did that matter in comparison to my health and well being? Not at all. I'd rather my mother care that I stay healthy and safe than to just allow me to run around like an idiot and catch my death outside in the cold.

If your mother telling you to put on a sweater just makes you feel like a child try to remember one thing, no matter how old you may be you will always be her child. She will always love you and try to give you advice, try to care for you and sometimes she will just ->-bleeped-<-ing annoy the crap out of you with her suggestions. Does that mean she isn't doing it out of love and you should feel insulted? Not at all. The fact that it is insulting to you is perhaps a personal issue you actually need to think about more. It certainly never insulted me that my mother loved me. In my opinion I'd be one ungrateful little brat of an adult if it did upset me or insult me that my mother cared.

[Cowboi]

Cynthialee: I just read your signature and actually feel that it can apply really well to this situation.

For anyone who hasn't noticed this is her signature:
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'


You knew yourself and you took the time to know your enemy as well (the SOC in this case) by doing so you found the loophole that was necessary for you and you won by getting what you needed. If you did not know the terms of the SOC your battle for HRT would have been up in the air, it could have gone either way, you may have to wait 3 months or longer or you may have won from the beginning because you did happen to be a competent person who was sure of what they needed and had to do. It's the last phrase that we have to recognize as being important, those who are not competent know neither themselves (meaning they may or may not benefit from HRT depending upon rather or not being trans is actually their issue, exactly what the SOC is created to find out) or their enemies (once again the SOC for this scenario)... that is why they are most likely to endanger themselves without proper supervision and therapy.

So if you apply the this theory from Sun Tsu to this scenario it supports the SOC guidelines.

[cynthialee]

Nice take on it. Apt.

For me the enemy is GID. I think I have a pretty good understanding by now.

Also I use a quote from a general so I see it daily and I am reminded of the male world I came from and how much of a battle it was just surviving as a male was for me and how much I hate it.

[Cowboi]

Nice take on it. Apt.

For me the enemy is GID. I think I have a pretty good understanding by now.

Also I use a quote from a general so I see it daily and I am reminded of the male world I came from and how much of a battle it was just surviving as a male was for me and how much I hate it.

Bwahaha, at least I'm not the only one who does stuff like that

It's strangely harder to find quotes that remind that being a woman sucked but I do like to keep an eye out for anything involving Paris Hilton... she always makes me feel better about being a guy lol.

[GinaDouglas]

The fact that it isn't questioned in other circumstances doesn't make it right not to question us, it actually means it is probably best to question EVERYONE. Rather you are a cis woman who wants breast implants because you think it will raise your self image, a transsexual who wants HRT and SRS or someone who wants an abortion therapy can assist with ALL of these issues. Don't you think it would be better for a woman to learn her self worth without having to enlarge her breasts to make her feel better about herself? Wouldn't it be great if someone actually talked about all of their options with a therapist before we just allowed them to have an abortion? It would certainly help deal with the consequences of both actions.

If it's not required of other people, but is required of me; that's discrimination bordering on tyranny.  And no, no and no to your rhetoricals.  It's called freedom.

Um, I guess we are on a totally different page here because YES I did feel loved when my mother tried to take care of me. That is her job, she's my MOTHER.

Oops, you fell into a rhetorical trap there.  Yeah, it's ok for my mother to make me put on a sweater, because she's my mother.  But the government and WPATH are not my mother.

While the waiting period to get on hormones might be "optional" - all the hoop jumping is not optional.  You still need the same letters, and still have to jump through the same hoops to do something non-optional like legally change your gender and identification, not to mention any kind of surgery.

[cynthialee]

I like the freedom angle Gina.

It is a total matter of freedom.

I figure that the way to deal with us is to just give us what we ask for, get us to sign release forms and wash their hands of responsibility for our actions.

[Cowboi]

Oops, you fell into a rhetorical trap there.  Yeah, it's ok for my mother to make me put on a sweater, because she's my mother.  But the government and WPATH are not my mother.

I fail to see where I fell into any trap. I said I agree with my mother protecting me, I also stated that I think we should protect other people who want to do other things to their bodies as well. I would have only fallen into a "trap" had I NOT supported protection in both instances. Also rhetoric does not apply to this at all, rhetoric is merely being able to communicate and write efficiently, which we both did, everyone on this thread has. At it's best it can be used to mean writing and speaking in a persuasive manner, which I did.

You are talking about two issues that are completely different, only common thing between them is someone telling you what you should do but the differences between a mother telling a child to wear a sweater and doctors saying you need to talk to a therapist before changing your gender are so vast that you can't use them the way you are. Just because I don't think my congressman should tell me to wear a sweater when it's cold out doesn't mean I can't think they shouldn't allow people to just do whatever they want to their bodies, two totally separate issues with two completely different results. Plus I can take the sweater off, I can't just go back to having a vagina and functioning ovaries.

If people were given freedom, actually given freedom to act and do whatever they pleased there would be a hell of a lot of things happening that NONE of us would agree with. In this one instance you support freedom because it backs up what you want to see happen, it backs your personal belief to be able to do what you personally want to do in this one instance. Just because you want it doesn't make it right, just because YOU can make the choice for yourself and are capable doesn't mean everyone can or should. These rules were never made with specific individuals in mind, they were made with EVERY individual in mind.

Besides we live in America, nothing is really free here, we just like to pretend it is because it sounds nice... freedom is the American dream and it's a dream because it doesn't actually exist.

This isn't about YOU having the choice to take HRT this is about everyone having the choice to go through HRT, that would include anyone who is not mentally stable, anyone who may think it is the right path and not even actually be trans, every single person who may not medically/physically be able to handle it, etc. It would do you a world of good to look beyond your own back porch and actually acknowledge that not EVERYONE is YOU.

[cynthialee]

I have come across only a small number of people who have transitioned and regreted it.
Cisgender people do not just willy nilly decide to transition.
If the HRT doesnt drive them nutz then the social aspects will give them GID they didnt have in the first place. Transition itself weeds out alot of the non trans folks. If a cisgender person makes it all the way to SRS, they are going to have gid for sure then but it is very unlikely. Yes it happens but the process itself separates the seed from the chaff in most cases.

[GinaDouglas]

I think it's a logical comparison.  Other people telling me what hoops I have to jump through is like my mother making me put on a sweater when she is cold.  It's wrong on two counts.  Big Brother WPATH is not my mother, and I am not a child.

[Al James]

I can understand the need for guidelines on waiting times for HRT: i could even understand a minimum waiting time- what i am struggling with at the moment ( and this is speaking solely for me and from a UK point of view) is why there is such a discrepancy on the RLE and whether you get hormones during the RLE or not. The guidelines the clinic i am at gives out is that women have to complete a one year RLE but will be given HRT after 3 months. Men have to do a 2 year RLE and will be given T at the END of those two years. Now i'm still playing the waiting game of seeing the psychiatrists and as its thro the NHS i just nod and smile so Ive no way of knowing if these guidelines are adhered to. But then i read that someone else is prescribed T after their second visit to a clinic. I know everyone is an individual and as such any medication or treatment should be adapted to that individual but why is there such a wide discrepancy?

[Sada]

by

[GinaDouglas]

I completely disagree with you on this one as a matter of fact I find it insulting for therapy to be mandatory.....but a therapist that is a not a TS will never understand what you are going through.

Yep.  That is right on the money.  Trying to get a therapist to understand is an impossible and agonizing task.

[long.897]

I see nothing wrong with the I want it now attitude if it is a reasonable thing to want.
HRT for a transsexual is reasonable.

Being FORCED to participate in a diagnosic or anyother medical ballyhoo you do not agree with is a form of submision to a rape of the soul. Just because someone MAY get harmed is not a valid reason to hold me or anyone else back from what they want. I did not want to discuss my very personal feelings and thoughts with anyone I havent decided to do so with.

(BTW: I did go the SOC route and will continue to do so. But I do not like it that my soul and body are apropriated by the medical comunity to further their goals and ideals.)

I just have to respond to the bolded point, because it's absolutely ridiculous.

Suppose that you had a schizophrenic patient who didn't believe that they were schizophrenic.  They don't agree with the diagnosis, and think that they're healthy; it's SOCIETY that has the problem.  The fact that they don't like the prospect, or don't believe that they're ill doesn't change the facts of the matter; whether I believe I'm sick or not, the facts are the facts.

On a semi-related bit, the continued opinion that you know yourself, and therefore know better than your doctor is driving me crazy.  These people with MDs, PhDs, etc have spent more than a decade in school training to recognise symptoms of disease; a gender therapist has devoted a good deal of time to learning how to properly diagnosis gender identity disorder, and to run a differential diagnosis to properly look for other issues; schizotypical disorders, histrionic personality disorder, fetishism, ETC.  There are a lot of reasons that someone who is MENTALLY ILL might seek treatment, and they cannot offer proper informed consent.  Not everyone who seeks HRT is mentally ill, but a significant enough proportion are that guidelines need to be in place to protect them. 

Suppose you have abdominal pains, and you read on wikipedia about the symptoms of a burst appendix.  You're CONVINCED that that's what's going on, and you go to the ER, demanding surgery immediately.  The trained and qualified doctor performs a quick exam, and says that she doesn't think that your appendix has ruptured; the symptoms are more indicative of colitis.

This nice doctor has 10+ years of training; you've read about abdominal pain on wikipedia, and have come to your own (different) conclusion.  Do you demand the surgery?  Do you see a black market medical "professional" to remove the appendix outside of the mainstream system?  Why are you willing (assuming you are, if you aren't you should seek professional mental help) to believe the ER doc, but not the gender identity specialists?

[Sada]

bye

[GinaDouglas]

This nice doctor has 10+ years of training; you've read about abdominal pain on wikipedia, and have come to your own (different) conclusion.  Do you demand the surgery?  Do you see a black market medical "professional" to remove the appendix outside of the mainstream system?  Why are you willing (assuming you are, if you aren't you should seek professional mental help) to believe the ER doc, but not the gender identity specialists?

Because GID is not abdominal pain, and a lifetime of research is not reading Wikipedia.  Your analogy is inapt.

[long.897]

long.897 YOU ARE SO WRONG I DO NOT KNOW WHERE TO BEGIN !!! You actually think because a doctor went to school that makes them competent ? Because if that is your case then where have all the malpractice suits come from !!! What about all those derms popping out accutane They went to med school, but yet there is the evidence of their sage wisdom. . . I mean if you have an illness since it is your problem you will be more inclined to resolve it, because your the one living with it not the doctor ~ thier the ones making money off of it. An BTW schizophrenia is a neuropsychiatric disorder, but when they just finished their studies of the PET scans of a control group it clearly showed without a doubt physiology is abnormal. So does that make it a neurosurgeon's domain more then psychiatric disorder, or does it fall in a geneticist field? The oath is not to harm. An I do not see them making a women who want 38KKK sized breasts have therapy for that procedure. The doctors in Cali probably do more over stuffed boos every day without a thought. Not to mention there was no therapy for Brian Zembic who after losing a bet got breasts (look up that)! The problem is we are a minority an easy mark to push around. Hopefully rather then bickering we will unite and have our voice heard loud and clear to change these archaic practices and join the 21st century accepted and cherished by society. 

                                                                           http://www.accutanelawsuit.net/

Your post is littered with logical fallacies, and the organizational structure makes my head hurt.  I'll try to address each point in bullet.

You actually think because a doctor went to school that makes them competent ? Because if that is your case then where have all the malpractice suits come from !!!

There isn't a professional alive in any field who has not, or will not one day make a mistake.  Doctors go through extensive training in learning to identify and treat disease, and are the most competent individuals available to do so.  Sometimes they screw up during surgery, sometimes they make mistakes with drug interactions; it happens.  A computer scientist who's completed a PhD in the field might screw up a reference while coding.  A physicist might forget to account for a variable.  Making that mistake doesn't mean that your average Joe Nobody off the street could perform in that field at the level that they could.

What about all those derms popping out accutane They went to med school, but yet there is the evidence of their sage wisdom. . . I mean if you have an illness since it is your problem you will be more inclined to resolve it, because your the one living with it not the doctor ~ thier the ones making money off of it.

Do you mean to say that doctors prolong the illness of their patients to drain their wallets?  I hope not, I'd hate to think that you're an idiot.  I don't know everything about the Accutane case, so I won't get into it too much, but it's my understanding that it was similar to Thalidomide in that the drug company failed to test it under sufficient circumstances.  That is in NO WAY the doctor's fault.  A doctor needs to be as knowledgeable as possible about drugs and treatments prescribed, but if the drug company fails to release information about potential side effects, the doctor cannot be held responsible for not knowing about them. 

If I'm mistaken, and the drug companies did release information about side effects, then the lawsuits are frivolous.  All drugs have risks; some drugs have worse risks than others.  You wouldn't sue the makers of Olanzapine for drug-induced diabetes; they clearly warn that it's a potential side effect, and doctors weigh the pros and cons accordingly. 

An BTW schizophrenia is a neuropsychiatric disorder, but when they just finished their studies of the PET scans of a control group it clearly showed without a doubt physiology is abnormal. So does that make it a neurosurgeon's domain more then psychiatric disorder, or does it fall in a geneticist field? The oath is not to harm.

I have no idea what you mean here.  Why would it be a neurosurgeon's concern?  There isn't a neurosurgery to correct schizophrenia.  Is it a geneticist's domain?  Not yet, but it is a question for researchers in genetics.  There's a familial pattern of inheritance in schizophrenia, so identifying risk factor genes would be a major breakthrough.  It's worth noting that psychiatrists also treat conditions that can be confirmed with medical tests; I feel like you were trying to convey that a psychiatrist's sole focus is psychological, uncomfirmable conditions.  If I may offer an example, psychiatrists commonly treat sleep disorders; many of these disorders can be confirmed with a simple EEG.

The oath bit seems like you wanted to include it somewhere, and didn't know where.  It doesn't pertain to the information beforehand, or after.  It's just...there.

An I do not see them making a women who want 38KKK sized breasts have therapy for that procedure. The doctors in Cali probably do more over stuffed boos every day without a thought. Not to mention there was no therapy for Brian Zembic who after losing a bet got breasts (look up that)!

I don't know if they DO offer them therapy, but they should.  Women who are that uncomfortable with their breasts likely have an underlying psychological problem; Body Dysmorphic Disorder, or Histrionic Personality Disorder are very likely.  As for smaller surgeries (e.g. removing a mole,) you have to admit that they aren't exactly drastic.  HRT and GCS will completely rework who you are, both physically and mentally.  Localized, small things don't have nearly the same effect on your life.

The Brian Zembic case is just silly, and the doctor who performed the surgery should be reviewed by the regulatory body.  What I said about localized surgeries still stands, but boob jobs are just a bit over the line, in my personal opinion.  I'm reading now, it actually sounds like he had a surgeon build up a big gambling debt against him.  The surgeon paid the multi-thousand dollar debt off with the surgery.  Not exactly like he walked into Johns Hopkins and had it done. 

The problem is we are a minority an easy mark to push around. Hopefully rather then bickering we will unite and have our voice heard loud and clear to change these archaic practices and join the 21st century accepted and cherished by society. 

There are definitely some doctors out there who, for ideological concerns, don't support transgendered people.  Luckily, there are plenty of resources available to utilize to avoid these providers.  I've seen plenty of lists of "good" gender therapists, and they can typically recommend a supportive medical network to assist you.  I feel like you're victimizing yourself to some degree.  Not everyone wants to push transpeople around.  I'd say more people are tolerant than aren't; it's just a case of that vocal 10%. 

[long.897]

Because GID is not abdominal pain, and a lifetime of research is not reading Wikipedia.  Your analogy is inapt.

You're still examining yourself through tinted glasses.  Would someone with GID come to a different conclusion in regard to their ailment than a fetishist?  I went to a transgroup and met a girl who didn't want to live as a woman full time; what she thought would be ideal is if there were some pill that would make her 100% female sometimes, (particularly for clubbing and sex,) and then another to make her 100% male.  HRT and GCS would not be a good option for her, and a properly trained therapist would recognise this, and treat accordingly.

[GinaDouglas]

It's not my job to pay for other people's ignorance.  Whether it's a dumbass ->-bleeped-<- you met in a group, or one you see in a mirror.