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Are We Making Fools Of The "Experts"?

Started by Julie Marie, December 10, 2006, 10:04:15 PM

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Melissa

Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 01:21:52 AM
You cannot say that you *should* have been born in the correct body if there is no previous knowledge of how that correct body exists in the mind's eye.
Then please explain why transsexuals are so much happier living in their correct bodies.  If what you say is true, they would actually be feeling worse.

Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 01:21:52 AM
  If the premise is that one has the incorrect brain for the body, one must ask why it seems that the transition process, the day-to-day trials and tribulations of the TS person with all their physical changes and efforts to 'pass' seem to be such a difficult part of RLT.

Au contraire, I find daily living as a female so much easier.  The "day-to-day trials and tribulations" were back when I was living as male.  Now it's easy.  I just be myself.

Melissa
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bananaslug

#21
Quote from: umop ap!sdn on December 12, 2006, 10:34:46 AM
Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 01:21:52 AMYou cannot say that you *should* have been born in the correct body if there is no previous knowledge of how that correct body exists in the mind's eye.
I disagree. :) You seem to be saying that one cannot assert that a person's brain is ideally suited to specific anatomical features until and unless that brain receives genuine sensory input from exactly such features. In fact, that just doesn't follow.

No I am saying that the brain forms a mental map of the body according to the body it exists in - this is a process that occurs right from the development of the foetus in the womb.  The brain cannot form a mental map of a body that does not exist.

The phantom limb sensations that an amputee experiences are logically explained by the neural pathways that were formed while the limb was still intact.
While it's also possible that people born without certain limbs can experience sensation due to nerve endings that trigger areas of the brain, it is still a leap to suggest that they feel they 'should have been born with said limb'.  The sensations they experience are typically those of sharp pain.
This does not match with the case of transsexual people where they assert an entire body dysmorphia. The MtF, for example, is not experiencing the physicality of a female body but rather feels that they should have been born with a female body.





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angelsgirl

QuoteYou seem to be saying that one cannot assert that a person's brain is ideally suited to specific anatomical features until and unless that brain receives genuine sensory input from exactly such features. In fact, that just doesn't follow.

The brain is very complicated.  While the brain does control all activities of the body, when a baby is learning to grab things and crawl the brain is actually forming new neural pathways in order to fine-tune the process (gross and fine motor skill development), but in other areas (breathing, for instance) the neural pathways are in place (for obvious reasons!  :))  The fact of the matter is that there is too much still unknown about the brain to determine which idea is right or wrong.

However, I do like to speculate on things when I learn something new until I learn something else new. ;)
With that said, I do know that some post-mortem brain studies have indicated that some areas of the brain show structural differences among men and women, but that there hasn't been enough study to reach a conclusion on the area.  There may be a good chance that there are "male" and "female" wired brains.  It is my personal opinion that there are because that makes sense to me. But it's only my opinion. ;)
Posted on: December 12, 2006, 02:27:34 PM
QuoteQuote from: angelsgirl on Yesterday at 09:56:02 AM
lack of serotonin re-uptake is believed prevalent in major depressive disorder.

I believe it's actually excessive serotonin re-uptake that is the cause.  SSRI's (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) actually limit the amount that it reuptaken.

Melissa

Oops...I meant to say lack of serotonin...is reuptaken a word?  >:D
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bananaslug

#23
Quote from: Melissa on December 12, 2006, 10:51:20 AM
Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 01:21:52 AMYou cannot say that you *should* have been born in the correct body if there is no previous knowledge of how that correct body exists in the mind's eye.
Then please explain why transsexuals are so much happier living in their correct bodies.  If what you say is true, they would actually be feeling worse.

Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 01:21:52 AM  If the premise is that one has the incorrect brain for the body, one must ask why it seems that the transition process, the day-to-day trials and tribulations of the TS person with all their physical changes and efforts to 'pass' seem to be such a difficult part of RLT.
Au contraire, I find daily living as a female so much easier.  The "day-to-day trials and tribulations" were back when I was living as male.  Now it's easy.  I just be myself.

Melissa



I don't know Melissa - you tell me!

As far as I can gather from the posts here on the forums, Transsexuals base their entire discomfort on 'living in the wrong body' - lo and behold when they receive surgical alterations, their discomfort is removed.
The truth is they are still living in the same body albeit with certain modifications.  The post-op MtF, for example, does not have a natal female body.

According to the supposition that Transsexualism is a biological condition, nothing short of a time machine and hormonal treatment during the development of the foetus can truly satisfy him/her.  If anything, this post-operative contentment further solidifies the opinion this is a mental condition NOT a biological one.

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Melissa

Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 02:37:33 PM
I don't know Melissa - you tell me!
Simple, because your logic is flawed.

Melissa
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angelsgirl

QuoteI don't know Melissa - you tell me!

It would seem to me that she just did!

QuoteAccording to the supposition that Transsexualism is a biological condition, nothing short of a time machine and hormonal treatment during the development of the foetus can truly satisfy him/her.  If anything, this post-operative contentment further solidifies the opinion this is a mental condition NOT a biological one.

Some people get nose jobs because they feel too insecure about the natural size of their nose. Having an oversized nose is a biological condition (determined in the genes), so when they have plastic surgery to make their nose look better they are usually happy about it. If you're oh so right about this like you think you are, then nothing short of having been born with the right size nose would be enough for these people.

Why is it so important to you that TSism be a mental disorder?

Mental disorders are caused in part by biological factors, so it's probably a combination of things like so many things are.
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bananaslug

#26
Quote from: Julie Marie on December 12, 2006, 09:22:14 AMbannanaslug, if you need conclusive evidence for everything in your life before you accept it then be prepared for a life of cynicism.  The analogies you've given can be debated endlessly because we are all unique creatures.  What applies for one person may not apply for any other person on this earth. 

The general consensus is non-TS persons have no idea what it's like being TS.  You can argue that until you're blue in the face but practically every TS person will tell you're wrong.  When sane. logical transsexual people tell the medical and mental health professionals they need to re-evaluate their treatment of transsexuals, the professionals, if they care at all about helping their patients, need to listen and then take action to correct their treatment.

The mind is a very complex and misunderstood part of us.  People can be in therapy for years before they get to the bottom of what's bothering them.  If you went to a doctor for a physical ailment how long would you continue treatment that showed no results before finding another doctor?

We KNOW what's bothering us.  We KNOW what the solution is.  It's been proven time and time again.  When you find a cure, use it!  To further complicate matters by saying we "think" or "believe" is counter productive.  You may think or you may believe but we know!  And you can write all the words you wish to convince us you're right but it will fall on deaf ears. 

When you're thirsty, drink water.  If someone tells you water doesn't cure thirst you'll probably laugh in their face.

Julie


I'm not telling you what to think - I'm putting what you 'know' in context and how the rest of the world sees these issues (you may have heard of them:-  the other 99 something percent of the world?).  You may not care what 'we' think, but if you want to work WITH us rather than 'closing rank' and saying 'only TS people understand these issues', you may want to reconsider your position.

I have no problems with TS people obtaining SRS, transitioning or doing whatever they feel they need to alleviate their condition. If that's the 'water' that you need then please go, drink! 
My genuine interest in the issues surrounding Transsexualism are met with a front of 'you're not one of us'.   I'm sure I'm not the first one, and I doubt I'll be the last. At least, I can say I tried.






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tinkerbell

Quote from: systemWarning: topic is currently/will be locked!
Only admins and moderators can reply.

I know, but I will take advantage of my "powers"  >:D

so, the topic is now locked....thank you! ;D


I was beginning to grow green hair reading some of the posts here...LOL

tinkerbell :icon_chick:
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beth

            The topic has been unlocked.  Everyone please play nice.







beth
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angelsgirl

For the record, I've never been given the "you're not one of us" treatment from anybody here.  Other than that, I'm done with this topic.
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Julie Marie

Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 02:51:22 PMI'm not telling you what to think - I'm putting what you 'know' in context and how the rest of the world sees these issues (you may have heard of them:-  the other 99 something percent of the world?).

People, about 99% of them, once saw the world as being flat.  Those who traveled the oceans KNEW that wasn't true.  By your logic, the world would be flat because that's what most people believed.  It wasn't until people opened their minds to other possibilities that they came to accept the world was round.

Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 02:51:22 PMYou may not care what 'we' think, but if you want to work WITH us rather than 'closing rank' and saying 'only TS people understand these issues', you may want to reconsider your position.

If a woman came up to a man and said, "You will never understand what it's like to have a period, to be pregnant, to go through childbirth" would you say she is closing rank?  Would you tell her to reconsider her position?  

You can read about the people who climbed Mt. Everest, who saw their friends freeze to death, who endured bitter cold, who thought they were going to die.  And when they tell you you'll never understand what it was like are they too closing ranks on you?  

Sometimes you have to live it to truly understand it.


Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 02:51:22 PMMy genuine interest in the issues surrounding Transsexualism are met with a front of 'you're not one of us'.

Your reaction comes from your interpretation.  I have never seen the words, "you're not one of us" written here nor have I ever heard any TS person say they feel that way.  I have heard "they don't understand" and it's true.  Your posts here prove that.

But I have to ask, what is your genuine interest?  From what you've written here I can't find a genuine interest related to advancing transgender issues in a positive light. Maybe your 'genuine interest' has nothing to do with resolving the problems we face.


Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 02:51:22 PMAt least, I can say I tried.

What does that mean?  I didn't see any effort on your part to try to understand the people who responded to you.  All I saw was you trying to convince everyone else your way of thinking was right.  That's not what I'd call trying.

I have no problem debating issues like this with anyone as long as the person I'm debating with has at least a sliver of an open mind.  But to debate anything with a closed minded person is a waste of time.  If you knew my past you'd know better where I'm coming from.  Believe it or not I once thought much like you, even though I knew deep down I was TS.  Denial helped me stay blind.  So I know where you're coming from.  Had I not had that experience I probably would have considered you hopelessly myopic.

Getting back on topic, I think what I've seen so far indicates we feel mainstream society doesn't understand us and some just don't want to.  Many doctors and therapists who treat us for TG related issues would categorize themselves as being main-streamers.  Does that mean they don't understand us?  Possibly.  And if that possibility exists then we have work to do.  We have get them to listen to us.

The only way I know to accomplish that is just keep in their ear.

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Hazumu

My vacation is going just fine...  ;D

If we could just harness the heat when these topics get a little out of hand...  >:D

My thoughts--

For now, GID as outlined in the DSM IV serves a purpose.  I'm using it to keep some, shall we say, 'forces' at bay.  Because my 'condition' is defined as medical not moral, I can transition at work unmolested by a very few who would throw the 'good book' at me for being an immoral, demon-infested chooser of an evil lifestyle.  Instead, thanks to the DSM IV and my 'diagnosis' of GID, and the fact that this diagnosis legally absolves me of moral wrongdoing, these few people are held in check from 'doing their moral duty' to 'balance society's moral books'.  Of course, they are watching me like a hawk, waiting to play the game, "Now I Got You You Son-Of-a-B****!" ('NIGYSOB', in Transactional Analysis-speak.)

Is it an illness?  Really, no.  Is it a lifestyle choice?  That has been discussed in this forum, and I have (finally) chosen to exit the burning building, even though society was telling me I was born in that building and 'had' to stay there.

Society says you don't hit girls, people with glasses, cripples, retards, and others with something 'disabling'.  GID being labeled an illness DOES help protect us from some of the excesses of society, even if it does ruffle the feathers of a portion of our community.

Karen
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Kate

Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 02:37:33 PMIf anything, this post-operative contentment further solidifies the opinion this is a mental condition NOT a biological one.

What does it being a "mental condition" mean though? What would be an example of a purely mental explanation?

My friend and I have kicked this around endlessly, and we're just not coming up with much by way of explanations. For myself, I've never known a moment without GID. It didn't suddenly appear in puberty, or after being ignored by my father, or... after any socialization events. I can clearly remember it being present by at least three or four. I clearly and distinctly knew from the very beginning that I should have been born a girl. There just wasn't much time before that for a poor upbringing to "cause" these feelings though.

I've read up on theories such as  ->-bleeped-<-, and to be sure, there are some interesting correlations. But it seems more a description of how GID plays out, and how a woman's heterosexuality becomes seriously complicated and frustrated when trapped within a male body. And as with any "mental condition" explanation, I always come back to the fact that this was ALWAYS there for me. There were no prompting events. I suppose something could have happened before three, but geez... I don't know if my thought patterns were sophisticated enough by then to program them with something as complex and contradictory as GID.

And even if it's some sort of "choice" somehow, then you have to ask yourself why only a small subset of males would prefer to become female. What causes that preference? And now you're right back where we were... looking for a root cause of those feelings.

In the end though, it sadly doesn't matter. Even if it's proven to me that there is no physical cause, and that I'm really just some sexual pervert, I STILL have to transition in order to find some sort of sanity in this world. The feelings of GID are just not accessible by reason. No amount of explaining will make them go away. The torture remains regardless of the original cause, and must me addressed at some point in order to live a fulfilling, loving and productive life.
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bananaslug

#33


So it seems the consensus of opinion from this thread is that if you don't adopt 'our' beliefs as fact, 100%, you don't understand 'us'.

I'm truly sorry I ever tried to discuss this from an alternative point of view. This thread has been enlightening, to say the least. How transsexual people feel was never in doubt but this has been a confirmation for me, how some wish to present and be perceived.

The lesson has been learned.


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Susan

Elleane cut the crap. I am not gonna let you come on and create an intentional disruption on my site. Did you think changing your name to Bananaslug and using a fake email fooled us for one second? So if you don't settle down and behave, you will be removed once again and a complaint about your activities sent to Bellsouth. Your smite has been removed from Julie Marie and added to your account x5!
Susan Larson
Founder
Susan's Place Transgender Resources

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cindianna_jones

Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 02:37:33 PMAs far as I can gather from the posts here on the forums, Transsexuals base their entire discomfort on 'living in the wrong body' - lo and behold when they receive surgical alterations, their discomfort is removed.
The truth is they are still living in the same body albeit with certain modifications.  The post-op MtF, for example, does not have a natal female body.

According to the supposition that Transsexualism is a biological condition, nothing short of a time machine and hormonal treatment during the development of the foetus can truly satisfy him/her.  If anything, this post-operative contentment further solidifies the opinion this is a mental condition NOT a biological one.

BS, I have never considered myself a "woman born in a man's body".  I know not what created this thing running in my mind my whole life. But I could not get the thought out.  I had to live as a woman. Yes, I did get the surgery.  No, it did not make me a biological woman. And yes, that particular problem went away.  It has been replaced with other thoughts that run non stop.  But they are wonderful thoughts that push me to do all kinds of creative things.

My case certainly does not fall within the bounds of your assesment.  I would be happy to further describe my experience.  If you have a question, please pose it.

Now... back to the topic of consideration .... As for putting something over on the pros... I ask this question... In which direction flows the money?

;)

Cindi
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Jenny

Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 02:37:33 PMAs far as I can gather from the posts here on the forums, Transsexuals base their entire discomfort on 'living in the wrong body' - lo and behold when they receive surgical alterations, their discomfort is removed.

It is impossible for anyone to make blanket statements about everyone elses experiences, but it does seem to me from my own background and from those of people I know that the emphasis of the discussion is often wrong. I'm happy to be corrected though  ;)

SRS is not "the cure" for transsexualism - it is just the final piece of the jigsaw. Put it this way - how many people would be "cured" if they received SRS in secret, and were then told to go home, continue with their lives exactly as they were before, and to never tell anyone what they had done?

Such a scenario would certainly help some people a little, but they would still face all the problems that they did before in having to present as male. Doesn't this then call into question that this is simply a case of "having the wrong body"?

The real cure isn't purely physical (though I am not denying the importance of physical change), but is a combination of many factors, including creating a situation where an individuals gender is accepted by those they interact with. There is a lot more to being female than possessing breasts and a vagina after all!

To the outsider, the focus of the "cure" for transsexualism is SRS. They perceive a group of men saying "I will feel better once a surgeon cuts my penis off", and react to that (perhaps understandably) with confusion and think "they must be mentally deranged!" because they are viewing it in isolation from everything else.

But they can't understand what it is like to be categorised as male, having to live life placed into that role when it is wrong. It is not really the fault of society as it is human nature to categorise everything, but that aspect of human nature can cause huge amounts of pain and torment to an individual viewed and treated as one thing when they are not.

The medical profession are pretty much powerless when it comes to diagnosing GID too. All they can really do is rule out the possibility that the patient is suffering from other things, is reasonably sane, and competent to assert that they are experiencing the problems that they say they are. Maybe one day science will provide an answer as to the cause, along with a diagnostic test etc but that is beyond their capabilities at the moment.

Until then I don't think we are making fools of them, nor they us, because at the end of the day they are accepting our word about the problem and offering us treatment based on that.

So, we have a situation where it is a condition that most people can not relate to the problems it causes, medicine can not provide a black and white diagnosis and the focus of mainstream thought (and the media) is on the "extreme" aspect of the treatment. Is it any wonder that there is so much prejudice and misunderstanding about it?

Personally I believe we would be much better served by moving the focus of mainstream debate about GID away from the body and onto the other problems it causes.

In much the same way that the debate about homosexuality is improved once the focus is away from sex and turned to love and emotions that are more easily understood by most people, which in turn leads to understanding, could the discussion about GID be served by focusing on issues away from body change which the majority of people can relate to better?

Society is broadly tolerant of homosexuals now that it is accepted that people are attracted to and fall in love with the people that they do and they have no choice about it (and that love naturally leads to it being expressed sexually).

Would people be more accepting and understanding of GID if they understood that people need to be able to relate to themselves and others (and have other people relate to them) in a manner appropriate to their gender, which in turn naturally leads to people requiring their bodies to be altered to "fit" on occasions?
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bananaslug

#37


No 'intentional disruption' or deception of any kind was intended.
My sincere apologies to all who have seen it as such.



Posted on: December 14, 2006, 09:11:17 AM
Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on December 14, 2006, 12:34:11 AM
Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 02:37:33 PMAs far as I can gather from the posts here on the forums, Transsexuals base their entire discomfort on 'living in the wrong body' - lo and behold when they receive surgical alterations, their discomfort is removed.
The truth is they are still living in the same body albeit with certain modifications.  The post-op MtF, for example, does not have a natal female body.

According to the supposition that Transsexualism is a biological condition, nothing short of a time machine and hormonal treatment during the development of the foetus can truly satisfy him/her.  If anything, this post-operative contentment further solidifies the opinion this is a mental condition NOT a biological one.

BS, I have never considered myself a "woman born in a man's body".  I know not what created this thing running in my mind my whole life. But I could not get the thought out.  I had to live as a woman. Yes, I did get the surgery.  No, it did not make me a biological woman. And yes, that particular problem went away.  It has been replaced with other thoughts that run non stop.  But they are wonderful thoughts that push me to do all kinds of creative things.

My case certainly does not fall within the bounds of your assesment.  I would be happy to further describe my experience.  If you have a question, please pose it.

Now... back to the topic of consideration .... As for putting something over on the pros... I ask this question... In which direction flows the money?

;)

Cindi

Thanks Cindi - I was kinda trying to form an idea of Transsexualism based on what others had written. It sounds like your experience is somewhat different.  I'm intrigued, if you did not feel 'a woman in a man's body' - what were your feelings? One assumes they were strong enough to motivate you towards SRS
- how did you know that SRS/transition was the solution?  

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beth

#38
quote from justelleane/elleane/bananaslug


QuoteNo 'intentional disruption' or deception of any kind was intended.
My sincere apologies to all who have seen it as such.


No intentional deception?  What about pretending in your introduction to just happen to find this site thru a link from wikipedia?

QuoteAnyway, I noticed a link from wikipedia to the androgyne forums here and I must say I'm impressed! Been reading some of the articles there.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,7151.msg54771.html#msg54771


I knew from the moment you registered (2 minutes after trying to sign on twice with your banned username) who you were.


 


beth
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bananaslug

#39

My apologies once again to all who feel there has been some 'deception' on my part.  Please PM or email me and I am sure you will realise this is a misunderstanding.  The quote from my introduction is certainly no lie.  There was no mention there of 'chancing upon this site'. My interest in gender issues and transsexualism is very genuine and I was delighted to find the aforementioned wikipedia link.

Regarding Transsexualism - is this something that we (TS and non-TS alike) can never truly fully understand?  In other words is this a moot exercise to try and understand transsexualism?

I would like to thank all those (esp. Jenny, Kate, Cindianna Jones) who have already shared their experiences and thoughts.  The richness of input on this subject ultimately goes towards a better appreciation, if not understanding of the subject.







 
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