Susan's Place Logo

News:

According to Google Analytics 25,259,719 users made visits accounting for 140,758,117 Pageviews since December 2006

Main Menu

DES sons...(Diethylstilbestrol Hormone) were you exposed?

Started by Opaque, September 20, 2010, 01:39:11 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

JLT1

Quote from: Randi on October 08, 2012, 05:34:15 PM
My Testosterone was 150 on a male scale of 300-1100 and my E2 (Estradiol) was 80 on a 0-50 scale. In other words my T levels were about halfway between the low end of the male scale and the high end of the female scale.

Conversely, my E2 Levels were about halfway between the high end of the male range and the low end of the female range.

Taking testosterone injections raised my estrogen levels high enough to give me budding boobs in 6 months and a considerable "rack" within two years.
Randi

Exactly!!!  Those E and T levels are very close to what mine were when I went to an endo because my breasts were budding (T=148, E=87).  I went to a 40C prior to even starting E. 

Jen
To move forward is to leave behind that which has become dear. It is a call into the wild, into becoming someone currently unknown to us. For most, it is a call too frightening and too challenging to heed. For some, it is a call to be more than we were capable of being, both now and in the future.
  •  

anjaq

HughE - did you find anything to support your hypothesis? I find it interesting. I know that progestins are harmful in hormone therapy but did not read anything about them in pregnancy

  •  

HughE

Quote from: anjaq on February 08, 2014, 07:37:37 PM
HughE - did you find anything to support your hypothesis? I find it interesting. I know that progestins are harmful in hormone therapy but did not read anything about them in pregnancy

"Anjaq", I gave quite a lengthly reply in another discussion "What causes transsexualism", so rather than repeat what I've said there, here's the link:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,157142.msg1355203.html#msg1355203

Basically, it's a known fact that exposure to external testosterone can make a female fetus partially develop as male across a wide range of animal species. Depending on how far into the pregnancy the exposure starts and how long it continues, you can end up with masculinised genitals, abnormal hormone regulation and impared fertility later or life, or partial or complete masculinisation of the brain.

Obviously doctors don't go around giving pregnant women testosterone, but, as a treatment to prevent miscarriages, they can give them quite high doses of synthetic female hormones. The theory I've come up with is that these female hormone derivatives can block fetal testosterone production, and thus produce the reverse effect of what testosterone would do, i.e. causing partial female development in a male fetus.

So far I've tried to confirm this theory by looking at the effects experienced by "DES sons". As this thread (and the one I've linked to) show, there certainly appears to have been a problem there! It's not just Susan's either, on all the trans sites I've been frequenting, you soon find DES being mentioned. Going on what I've seen, DES seems to have produced more or less the exact mirror image effects on the DES sons of what testosterone did in the sheep experiments, including feminisation of the genitals, causing problems with hormone regulation and impaired fertility later in life, and female brain development. I don't think the problem is limited to DES though, I think any exposure to synthetic female hormones during the criticial period when fetal sexual development is taking place is likely to produce similar effects. This is why the fact that you were exposed to gravibinan and not DES is so important. It supports my theory that the problem isn't limited to DES, and that treatments in current use are likely to be causing transsexualism too.

Gravibinan appears to still be in production, and I know that generic hydroxyprogesterone caproate and branded versions of it (e.g. Makena) are widely used in cases of threatened abortion and in women who've had recurrent miscarriages.

Given the high suicide rate associated with transsexualism, I think it's important to let people know that there are medications in current use that are potentially causing it!
  •  

Daradakoda

Born in 1969, son of an R factor pregnancy that was high risk.  I'm a DES son too. This explain a great deal about my gender dysphoria.
  •  

Sydney_NYC

Born in 1970 and a DES Son. My mother didn't even know she was given it by her doctor as they were in her prescribed prenatal vitamins.

Quote from: HughE on February 10, 2014, 09:07:16 AM

Basically, it's a known fact that exposure to external testosterone can make a female fetus partially develop as male across a wide range of animal species. Depending on how far into the pregnancy the exposure starts and how long it continues, you can end up with masculinised genitals, abnormal hormone regulation and impared fertility later or life, or partial or complete masculinisation of the brain.


I believe the it's expose to external estrogen not testosterone is the result of DES.

There is a Wiki here about it. The first sentence states:

QuoteDiethylstilbestrol (DES, former BAN stilboestrol) is a synthetic nonsteroidal estrogen that was first synthesized in 1938.

There is an interesting page about it here that you may find interesting.
Sydney





Born - 1970
Came Out To Self/Wife - Sept-21-2013
Started therapy - Oct-15-2013
Laser and Electrolysis - Oct-24-2013
HRT - Dec-12-2013
Full time - Mar-15-2014
Name change  - June-23-2014
GCS - Nov-2-2017 (Dr Rachel Bluebond-Langner)


  •  

HughE

Quote from: Sydney_NYC on February 10, 2014, 11:59:06 PM
Born in 1970 and a DES Son. My mother didn't even know she was given it by her doctor as they were in her prescribed prenatal vitamins.

I believe the it's expose to external estrogen not testosterone is the result of DES.

There is a Wiki here about it. The first sentence states:

There is an interesting page about it here that you may find interesting.

Sorry, I probably didn't word that very well. What I was trying to say is that there's an abundance of research (most of it carried out in the 1970s), showing that exposing a female fetus to external testosterone can cause it to partially develop as male, and this is true across a wide range of animal species. If the exposure takes place early in the pregnancy you get physical abnormalities (masculinization of the genitals), somewhat later and you get effects that, from what I was reading, look to be quite similar to an endocrine disorder that some women experience called polycystic ovarian syndrome or PCOS (basically the brain is no longer capable of correctly generating the signals that control the maturation and release of eggs, so you get impaired fertility and cysts building up in the ovaries, made of ripened but unreleased eggs). Later still and and you get partial or complete masculinisation of courtship and mating behaviour.

What this shows is that external hormones can make a fetus partially develop as the opposite sex, and if that happens, the way it manifests itself later in life is through genital abnormalities, endocrine disorders and impaired fertility, and the kind of psychological effects you'd expect from having a brain that's developed as the opposite sex (and depending on when the exposure starts and finishes, you can end up with only some of those effects or all of them).

That's what happens in animals implanted with testosterone during pregnancy.

Although obviously nobody's planning on implanting pregnant humans with testosterone, there are large numbers of people alive today who were exposed to very high doses of artificial female hormones during the critical period when their sexually dimorphic development was taking place, when their mothers were given hormone treatment to prevent miscarriage. DES was just the earliest of these treatments, a whole bunch of newer ones (including Gravibinan) took the place of DES when it was phased out in the 1970s, and have remained in use ever since.

Synthetic female hormones (estrogens and progestins) are basically completely alien to the male body and masculinity, and they're all highly effective at suppressing testosterone production in adult men. My theory is simply that the do the same thing to a male fetus as they would do to an adult man, and suppress his testosterone production when his mother is given one of these treatments to prevent miscarriage.

Based on what I've seen over the last couple of years, DES certainly seems to have been interfering with testosterone production in those unfortunate enough to be exposed to it. The thing that really surprised me wasn't so much the high rates of gender dysphoria, it's the fact that probably a third or more of the ones I've spoken to or whose personal stories I've read have genital abnormalities of some kind, and they're often quite serious things that required multiple surgeries to repair them too. There's a great deal of shame and secrecy associated with intersex conditions so it's not surprising that those affected and their families tend not to talk about it, but it's difficult to see how whoever was tasked with assessing what had happened to the DES sons could have failed to notice!

Scott Kerlin's summary that you've very helpfully linked to, illustrates very well what I was trying to say. With DES, you seem to get the exact mirror image of what happens in lab experiments where a female fetus is masculinized through exposed to testosterone,i.e. feminization of the genitals, endocrine disorders related to underproduction of testosterone, impaired fertility, and the kind of psychological effects you'd expect to see if someone had a female brain. That supports my original theory, that these hormonal miscarriage treatments can produce the reverse of what a testosterone implant would do, and cause a male fetus to partially develop as female.
  •  

HughE

Someone sent me a DES-related personal message, but I don't appear to have permissions to use the messaging or email functions, so can't reply to it directly. However, for anyone who's DES-exposed or interested in finding out more about DES, there's a facebook page,

https://www.facebook.com/DESInfo

which is being run in their spare time by some DES daughters, and is quite trans friendly (the main DES charity, DES action USA, isn't so trans friendly unfortunately). It has a fair bit of information about DES and, in the Notes section, some personal stories of DES sons.

There's also a small group, "DES: Society of Sons and Daughters"

https://www.facebook.com/groups/155114284675795/

to which I belong, along with most of the DES sons and daughters I've met online. It's a closed group because some of us have been talking about quite personal things, and didn't want them popping up on all our friends news feeds (most transgender groups on fb are closed, for that same reason). I didn't set the group up, but I'm sure the owner wouldn't object to people from here joining.

There was also a DES sons group in Yahoo groups, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be active any more.
  •  

Satinjoy

This thread gives me peace and the DES thing makes total sense with my life experience.  I appreciate the posts.
Morpheus: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the red pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the little blue pills - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes

Sh'e took the little blue ones.
  •  

justpat

  Hi HughE  I think at 15 posts you will be able to answer, your almost there. Also my e-mail address should be available then too.  Pat
  •  

ErinWDK

I have no solid evidence I was exposed to DES.  I have my suspicions.  I was born the year it was used the most.  My mother was 31 and had her own medical issues making me the result of a high risk pregnancy, so I suspect.  My mother died forty years ago so there is no way to ask.  My dad died five years ago so there is no way to ask him either.  The only one left from my parent's generation left to talk to is my dad's little sister who he didn't discuss issues like this with.  She was able to confirm the high risk pregnancy conclusively.  So I have "symptoms" to look at:

I had gynecomastia from the onset of puberty
I have had an urge to cross dress from the same time
I have wished that I were born female
My libido is very near NIL
I react BADLY to Testosterone
I have finally figured out that thing in the back of my mind that was just "wrong" was/is GID

I don't know, but I suspect.  I guess all this uncertainty is what those who sold DES are banking on to avoid all liability for their actions.  It stinks...
  •  

HughE

For anyone who's interested, here's some more DES links.

"DES Voices: From Anger to Action", an e-book written by DES mother Pat Cody following the death of her daughter from a DES-related cancer, available as a free download here:
http://www.lulu.com/shop/pat-cody/des-voices-995/ebook/product-17522743.html
Chapter 3 is devoted to DES sons, although she's glossed over the link to gender dysphoria, and I don't think she realised that the genital abnormalities DES sons were often born with, are actually the result of intersexed development.

A now defunct website dealing primarily with intersex, but this section seemingly set up by people associated with Drs Kerlin and Beyer's DES sons research group:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070904130339/http://www.intersexualite.org/Definitions.html

A second (also now defunct) website, specifically looking at DES as a cause of transsexuality:
http://web.archive.org/web/20090402011805/http://www3.telus.net/des1/index.html

The personal story of Dana Beyer MD:
http://desdaughter.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/des-other-daughters-neglected-evidence-of-prenatal-gender-development/
If you follow the links at the bottom of that page, there's a fair bit of information on that website about DES sons, and about DES in general.

Biography of Laura Amato, the founder of Laura's Playground:
http://www.lauras-playground.com/bio.htm

A DES thread on Laura's Playground:
http://www.lauras-playground.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=20727

A DES thread on Chameleons West Australia:
http://www.chameleonswa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=534
There's an interesting comment there, about it being used in the UK during the 1950s as part of a secret project to increase the birth rate!

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=BmJOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=U0sDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3742%2C5111526&hl=en
A page from the Ellensburg Daily Record, Nov 8, 1962, about a court case against Nysco laboratories, Inc., a pill manufacturer that didn't clean their equipment properly after producing a batch of DES tablets. Their next production run was of childrens medicines, which became contaminated with DES. Apparently, thousands of boys and girls across America started developing breasts shortly afterwards as a result.
"The FDA said it can cause feminization in young boys". They knew this in 1962, but didn't withdraw approval for DES for a further decade  (and have never acknowledged the link with intersex conditions and transsexuality in DES sons).

http://prenatalexposures.blogspot.co.uk/
A blog put together by Jill Escher, the mother of two autistic children, who is trying to highlight the link between synthetic hormones and autism. Although in her case the exposure was to progestins rather than DES, there's plenty of information on her blog about the wanton way in which extremely high doses of newly developed synthetic hormones (including DES), were administered to millions of unsuspecting women in the course of treatment aimed at preventing miscarriages. It's a reminder that DES isn't the only offender here, and that the harmful effects of these substances likely go far beyond transsexuality in DES sons and the acknowledged problems in DES mothers and daughters.

An article I wrote about this time last year, published on CNN iReport:
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-938285

An article I had published last September about the link between prenatal exposure to synthetic hormones and transsexuality:
http://www.hormonesmatter.com/hormone-treatment-pregnancy-gender-variance/
  •  

Satinjoy

This is going to help a lot of folks when they hit this site

Thanks HughE.

I am utterly convinced DES is why I am hardwired female.  And it helps to know  that.  It actually helped save my marrage to have a physical cause.
Morpheus: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the red pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the little blue pills - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes

Sh'e took the little blue ones.
  •  

HughE

I've just had a letter to the editor published in the current issue (issue 139, Winter 2014) of DES Action USA's Voice magazine. Although the magazine itself is only available to members, here's a copy and paste of the letter:

Letter to the Editor
Prenatal Hormone Exposure and Gender

I was born in New Zealand and I'm currently based in London UK. For as long as I can remember I've had a kind of partially feminine gender identity, but until recently never consciously acknowledged it. Then, a couple of years ago I realised that my body language, my pattern of arousal and orgasm, and my instinctive social behaviour are all very much more like what you'd typically see in a woman rather than a man - and that I have a body that's a bit like a cross between a man's and a woman's too!

Through research I've learned this is known as a "eunuchoid habitus", and is something seen in intersex cases. I have a feminine appearance with long, slender arms and legs and a female leg to trunk ratio, described as long legs with a comparatively short upper body. Overall I look quite different from the males in my family and a lot more like my mother and sisters.

In short, I'm not just psychologically intersexed because something unusual seems to have happened to my physical development too. But what?

The sex-determining chromosome, the Y chromosome, tells our undifferentiated gonads to turn into testicles (without it they'll turn into ovaries instead). All the genetic blueprints for actually building a male or female body are located elsewhere in your genome though, so everyone has the full set of instructions for both sexes.

Ordinarily this system works quite well and you'll develop as one sex throughout the pregnancy  But as I now understand it, certain conditions can cause a male foetus to underproduce (or a female foetus to overproduce) testosterone causing the developing body to follow a mixture of male and female instructions.

With most intersex conditions, the abnormal hormone situation tends to be there throughout the pregnancy. In my case, there seem to have been normal male levels of testosterone to start with and towards the end of the pregnancy too, but a limited period of very low testosterone in the middle. It didn't seem to match any conventional intersex scenario that I could find.

Then I read a passage in Brain Sex: The Real Difference Between Men and Women, by Anne Moir and David Jessel describing a pattern of behaviour commonly shown by teenage boys who were prenatally exposed to the artificial estrogen DES. The boys were described as typically shy, socially withdrawn, lacked self esteem, were regarded as sissies, bullied, ostracised by their peers, had no ability to fight back when attacked and no interest in sport. The authors depicted it as " feminized behaviour" and it matched my teenage years so closely it could have come straight out of my school report! That got me looking at a chemical exposure of some kind as the explanation for what had happened to me.

DES, and artificial female hormones in general are good at suppressing testosterone production in adult men. Why wouldn't they have the same effect on a male foetus? The dose of DES required to completely stop testosterone production in prostate cancer patients is 3mg per day; the starting dose for miscarriage prevention was 5mg per day.

DES Sons have the emotionally comforting knowledge that what happened to them was done to prevent miscarriage because their mothers desperately wanted and loved them. But that's not my circumstance. There was no medical reason for my mother to have been given DES and in fact, I suspect she most likely took an overdose of contraceptive pills in a failed attempt to end the pregnancy. As I see it, that could have severely disrupted my developing endocrine system so for a few weeks testoterone levels were limited. It's not something I'm going to be able to prove but for a variety of reasons I'm fairly sure that's what happened.

Since coming to that realization I've been trying to learn as much as possible about prental hormonal disruption and I feel a kindred spirit with the DES Sons I've connected with. Many seem to share similarities with me, including genital abnormalities, feminized behavior as teenagers, endocrine issues and gender variance. Several have also mentioned having a feminine appearance, leading me to speculate that both brain development and physical appearance may be linked to prenatal hormonal exposures of varying kinds.

One thing I've noticed, though, is that many of the gender variant DES Sons I've come in contact with seem to be more psychologicaly female than I am, and more fully identify as women than I do. Could DES use have resulted in more male to female transexuality than would have otherwise occurred in the population?  I certainly wonder.This also brings forward the importance of dose and timing in prenatal exposures. While, by my calculations, I had a brief exposure to a high level of synthetic hormones, DES Sons were exposed throughout much of their development in the womb.

With the growing understanding of damage caused by DES and the fact that it started serious investigation of endocrine disruption issues,  I'm writing in thanks that DES sparked this interest even though sadly, it did so much harm.  But where would we be today if the DES link to health issues had never been made?

I thank researchers for uncovering truths we already know and hope they continue their studies not only into DES but also into other hormones that could be having similar effects. My situation raised questions for me and I believe the answer is in what happened before I was born. While not a DES Son I feel a kindred spirit with gender variance.

I worry now that drugs still currently in use could continue wreaking havoc in the name of doing good. Pregnant women please be careful with the exposures allowed for your unborn children. We don't know all there is to know about their safety, especially those that could create hormonal imbalances before birth.

Sincerely,

Hugh Easton



  •  

Jess42

"The boys were described as typically shy, socially withdrawn, lacked self esteem, were regarded as sissies, bullied, ostracised by their peers, had no ability to fight back when attacked and no interest in sport. The authors depicted it as " feminized behaviour"

That describes me perfectly growing up. I was born in the late 60's. I don't know if there is anything to it but it does seem to be too much of a coincidence. I do know my mom had a daughter before me that she gave up for adoption and a miscarriage before me. She also had another miscarriage after me when I was around 4 or 5 so all of her pregnancies seemed to be high risk. Unfortunately she died and I have no way of finding out. It would explain a lot.
  •  

HughE

I just thought I'd remind people about this terrible drug DES, which, up until about 1980, was widely used as a treatment to prevent miscarriages and premature births. An estimated 5 million mothers and a roughly equal number of unborn babies were exposed to DES, making it by far the largest drug related disaster in the history of medicine. Even so, not many people today have even heard of it (which illustrates how much power the pharmaceutical companies have when it comes to covering up their mistakes!).

DES is quite important as far as transsexuality is concerned, because it's one instance where medical hormones have quite clearly caused a large number of cases of transsexuality. Although DES itself was withdrawn from use 40 years ago, I think it's highly likely that other drugs still in use can similarly interfere with normal male development, with MTF transsexuality being one of the possible side effects.

Here's a list of symptoms that commonly seem to be associated with DES exposure:

Born between 1940 and 1971 (US) or 1980 (elsewhere)
Undescended testicles
Micropenis - a fully formed but considerably shorter than normal penis
Hypospadias
Epidiymal cysts of the testicles (these are apparently Mullerian remnants - fragments of female tissue that would have been absorbed in normal male development)
Vestigial female organs or organ remnants
Intersexed genitals similar to grade 3 PAIS
Other genital abnormalities

Feminine-looking facial features, developing a body structure that's more like the female members of your family than the male ones
Other symptoms of low testosterone such as a lack of body hair, gynecomastica and an inability to build upper body muscle

Very shy, socially passive behaviour as a teenager
Difficulty forming friendships with boys; having a special affinity with girls
Being bullied a lot; having an inability to fight back
Having no interest in sport
People tending to assume you're gay; lots of men being attracted to you
Identifying as a woman, or part of you identifying as a woman while part identifies as a man

Depression
ADHD
Other seemingly non gender related psychological problems
  •  

Carol Chastleton

Quote from: HughE on September 05, 2014, 05:49:34 AM
I just thought I'd remind people about this terrible drug DES ...
At some point in the 1970s my mother received an official notification from the hospital where I and my 2 sisters were born informing her that she had been prescribed DES during all three of her pregnancies.  The letter went on to recommend that she "notify any of her living children of this and encourage them to advise their physicians".  In her typical dysfunctional manner, my mother made copies of the notification letter and mailed one to each of us, with no further note or comment from her. 

I was already well down the path of transition long before this revelation and when we all received the letters from my mother, my oldest sister (who vehemently disapproved of my journey) made a point of pronouncing that our exposure to DES "had nothing to do with this (my being TS)".  That may or may not be the case - either way it really doesn't matter to me now.  My prenatal exposure to DES as well as SRS and all the other steps I took as a young adult in order to make a life that worked for me are all ancient history now.

Carol
Carol
--------------------------------
"Old age is no place for sissies."
Bette Davis



  •  

justpat

  Thanks for the update Hugh you always have some great information for us. I just wonder how many of us had cysts on the left testicle My largest was 5.2 cm with smaller ones present.Also I have had pain down there since the early 70's.Spiro finally dulled the ache after I started HRT in Dec of 2013 its still there but not nearly as bad.A permanent solution is in the works for next year.  Patty
  •  

Allyda

Quote from: HughE on September 05, 2014, 05:49:34 AM
I just thought I'd remind people about this terrible drug DES, which, up until about 1980, was widely used as a treatment to prevent miscarriages and premature births. An estimated 5 million mothers and a roughly equal number of unborn babies were exposed to DES, making it by far the largest drug related disaster in the history of medicine. Even so, not many people today have even heard of it (which illustrates how much power the pharmaceutical companies have when it comes to covering up their mistakes!).

DES is quite important as far as transsexuality is concerned, because it's one instance where medical hormones have quite clearly caused a large number of cases of transsexuality. Although DES itself was withdrawn from use 40 years ago, I think it's highly likely that other drugs still in use can similarly interfere with normal male development, with MTF transsexuality being one of the possible side effects.

Here's a list of symptoms that commonly seem to be associated with DES exposure:

Born between 1940 and 1971 (US) or 1980 (elsewhere)
Undescended testicles
Micropenis - a fully formed but considerably shorter than normal penis
Hypospadias
Epidiymal cysts of the testicles (these are apparently Mullerian remnants - fragments of female tissue that would have been absorbed in normal male development)
Vestigial female organs or organ remnants
Intersexed genitals similar to grade 3 PAIS
Other genital abnormalities

Feminine-looking facial features, developing a body structure that's more like the female members of your family than the male ones
Other symptoms of low testosterone such as a lack of body hair, gynecomastica and an inability to build upper body muscle

Very shy, socially passive behaviour as a teenager
Difficulty forming friendships with boys; having a special affinity with girls
Being bullied a lot; having an inability to fight back
Having no interest in sport
People tending to assume you're gay; lots of men being attracted to you
Identifying as a woman, or part of you identifying as a woman while part identifies as a man

Depression
ADHD
Other seemingly non gender related psychological problems
As with your other list, almost all of this describes me perfectly with only few exceptions. However, my biological Mom has passed a long time ago, when I was six and she was all I had biologically. So I assume there's no way to find out if she was exposed to DES. I can ad this tho, I was born intersexed at only 8 months. I was a premie but that's all I know. I was born on Halloween 1964 tho, so it is possible my Mom was treated with DES. I just have no way of finding out.

Thanks for posting this info and for this thread. It has answered many of my questions I've had for many years.

Ally :icon_flower:
Allyda
Full Time August 2009
HRT Dec 27 2013
VFS [ ? ]
FFS [ ? ]
SRS Spring 2015



  •  

JLT1

In the US, from 1958 to 1963, it was also prescribed as a fertility aid.  I am one of those....

It's worse than I can ever explain.  It just makes me cry.

Carrie... you may explain for me.  They need to know and you know everything.  You see me every day, you know the truth about what I am and how this has impacted me.

Hugs to all,

Jen
To move forward is to leave behind that which has become dear. It is a call into the wild, into becoming someone currently unknown to us. For most, it is a call too frightening and too challenging to heed. For some, it is a call to be more than we were capable of being, both now and in the future.
  •  

Allyda

@Jen,

You think on my Reservation it might have still been in use in 1964?
Thanks in advance.
Ally :icon_flower:
Allyda
Full Time August 2009
HRT Dec 27 2013
VFS [ ? ]
FFS [ ? ]
SRS Spring 2015



  •