DES sons...(Diethylstilbestrol Hormone) were you exposed?

[Jill F]

Unfortunately Jill that will be more or less what would happen. Something like 50 bucks for us. Far better sometimes to look forward and hope that it has more of an effect on society and how society perceives us than anything else. 50 bucks isn't even worth a bottle of Dom Periogn to celebrate a successful courtroom win with.

50 bucks won't even get you a Veuve Cliquot anymore.  *le sigh*  Screw it, I'm a Bollinger kinda chick anyway.  C'est la vie.

[Jess42]

50 bucks won't even get you a Veuve Cliquot anymore.  *le sigh*  Screw it, I'm a Bollinger kinda chick anyway.  C'est la vie.

Ok, so dumb little redneck girl I am even in my forties. WTH is that? I do know C'est la vie though. That was a Bob Segar Song. But the Veuve Cliquot, I am lost.

[Jill F]

Ok, so dumb little redneck girl I am even in my forties. WTH is that? I do know C'est la vie though. That was a Bob Segar Song. But the Veuve Cliquot, I am lost.

It's a bottle of Champagne that costs about fifty bucks now if you're lucky.

C'est la vie?  En Anglais- (loosely) "Such is life." 

[VeronicaLynn]

Born between 1940 and 1971 (US) or 1980 (elsewhere) - No, a few years late for the US, but my mom had several miscarriages before she had me and took "some special and hard to come by" drug to prevent me being a miscarriage
Undescended testicles - No
Micropenis - a fully formed but considerably shorter than normal penis - No, just below average,(For there to be an average there have to be some below average, even if most won't admit this)
Hypospadias - No
Epidiymal cysts of the testicles (these are apparently Mullerian remnants - fragments of female tissue that would have been absorbed in normal male development) - Not sure
Vestigial female organs or organ remnants - Probably not
Intersexed genitals similar to grade 3 PAIS - No
Other genital abnormalities - No

Feminine-looking facial features, developing a body structure that's more like the female members of your family than the male ones
Other symptoms of low testosterone such as a lack of body hair, gynecomastica and an inability to build upper body muscle - Yes, but just gynecomastica and lack of body hair, bone structure is inconsistent, I have small hands but broad shoulders, wide feet but tiny thighs

Very shy, socially passive behaviour as a teenager - Yes
Difficulty forming friendships with boys; having a special affinity with girls - Yes
Being bullied a lot; having an inability to fight back - Was bullied a lot but I fought back
Having no interest in sport - I don't really like sports, but I love the uniforms. I can get into sports a little after a few six-packs
People tending to assume you're gay; lots of men being attracted to you - Yes
Identifying as a woman, or part of you identifying as a woman while part identifies as a man - Ye.
Depression- At times, but I perhaps had reason
ADHD - They tried to pin that one on me as a kid
Other seemingly non gender related psychological problems - Who doesn't

I'm not sure if I am a DES son, like I said in my answer, I was a few years late, but my mom took something that was hard to get, and well, it worked, I was not a miscarriage. Asking her is hard because talking about her miscarriages makes her really sad, and she doesn't seem to know what it was. I'm her miracle baby, they told her after her last miscarriage she'd never conceive again, if she were to know that what she did to keep me did something to me I don't know how she'd react. If being trans is the price I have to pay to be alive at all, I guess I can live with that...

[Jess42]

It's a bottle of Champagne that costs about fifty bucks now if you're lucky.

C'est la vie?  En Anglais- (loosely) "Such is life."

OK, 50 dollar bottle of Champagne, I really hope the bottle is like a half gallon or so. If not I can make my own with a lot more alcohol content a whole lot cheaper.  Or at least buy it a lot cheaper with more alcohol and less CO2.

I do know what C'est la vie is. I am in Cajun country and know that saying. Anywhere else people say "Crap happens" but not as nicely put. Down here it's C'est la vie.

[Allyda]

@Satinjoy: Thanks for the compliment and your words. Whether or not my Mom was given DES in 1964 remains a mystery. However I can say yes to many of those questions including an undescended testicle(I only have one), micropenis, and vestigial female organs, and other genital abnormalities, just to name a few. I could name more but I don't wanna tie up the thread.

Again I thank Hugh, and those of you whom have responded here.

Best Wishes!

Ally

[Satinjoy]

Regarding the smoking gun, and by the way Jill I miss your pic and your smile but love the guitars, but regarding this, it isn't the lawsuits, and I know its hard to back it all up, or I guess it is, but it gives me peace of mind to know why.  It also gave me something to say to my family.  If they thought I deliberately wanted to be transitioned, and I am transitioned, then my wife would have left and I would be alone.  But, because I made the personal case for DES womb transition, she accepted me as trans.  It softened the blow for her as she cannot handle seeing Satinjoy.  But she can handle the genderqueer presentation that is startling to say the least with a full transitioned body covered in nylon and not wigged or surgically changed.

Bottom line, I would be screwed if I didn't know about DES.

My fear and my question to you if I dare ask it, is what could happen to me later?  I have high E levels, intentionally, that is a factor, but its the male mental functions that I am concerned about.  I need that, I am nonbinary to the core.

Blessings  SJ

[Paige]

When I read about DES, I get the urge to ask my mother but always chicken out.  I was born in 62 so it's possible.  I also wonder about all the man-made chemicals in our environment these days that are endocrine disruptors.  Lord knows if you look up many pesticides, flame retardants, suntan lotions, cosmetics, etc. they are consider or suspected of being endocrine disruptors.   Could these chemicals also be contributing to the issue?

Just curious what people think.
Paige

[Jill F]

When I read about DES, I get the urge to ask my mother but always chicken out.  I was born in 62 so it's possible.  I also wonder about all the man-made chemicals in our environment these days that are endocrine disruptors.  Lord knows if you look up many pesticides, flame retardants, suntan lotions, cosmetics, etc. they are consider or suspected of being endocrine disruptors.   Could these chemicals also be contributing to the issue?

Just curious what people think.
Paige

There were transwomen before and after DES, so I think pretty much anything that can disrupt a pregnant woman's endocrine system could be to blame. 

[ImagineKate]

Born between 1940 and 1971 (US) or 1980 (elsewhere) - 1978 elsewhere
Undescended testicles - Nope
Micropenis - a fully formed but considerably shorter than normal penis - Shorter than normal, shorter than my siblings. Not what I would consider a micropenis.
Hypospadias - No
Epidiymal cysts of the testicles (these are apparently Mullerian remnants - fragments of female tissue that would have been absorbed in normal male development) - Not sure how to check
Vestigial female organs or organ remnants - Not sure
Intersexed genitals similar to grade 3 PAIS - No
Other genital abnormalities - No

Feminine-looking facial features, developing a body structure that's more like the female members of your family than the male ones - Somewhat.
Other symptoms of low testosterone such as a lack of body hair, gynecomastica and an inability to build upper body muscle - Some gynecomastia, but lots of body hair, upper body muscle was not that difficult to build.

Very shy, socially passive behaviour as a teenager - Yes
Difficulty forming friendships with boys; having a special affinity with girls - Yes
Being bullied a lot; having an inability to fight back - Bullied quite a lot, tried to fight back, mostly failed
Having no interest in sport - Little interest in sport.
People tending to assume you're gay; lots of men being attracted to you - No
Identifying as a woman, or part of you identifying as a woman while part identifies as a man - Yes
Depression- Sometimes
ADHD - No official diagnosis, but I suspected
Other seemingly non gender related psychological problems - I think everyone has those

To be honest I don't even know and probably am not a DES son. I was my mom's first and was conceived shortly after she married my dad, based on wedding dates and my birth date.

[Violet Bloom]

  I was born in 1977 in Canada - Is there a chance that I could have been exposed to DES or something similar?  My mother has never said anything about the period when she was pregnant with me but I can identify with many of the conditions listed (no deformities though).  If the likelihood is there then I will try to ask her about it.

Born between 1940 and 1971 (US) or 1980 (elsewhere) - 1977 Canada
Undescended testicles - No
Micropenis - a fully formed but considerably shorter than normal penis - No
Hypospadias - Not that I'm aware of
Epidiymal cysts of the testicles (these are apparently Mullerian remnants - fragments of female tissue that would have been absorbed in normal male development) - Not sure how to check
Vestigial female organs or organ remnants - Not sure
Intersexed genitals similar to grade 3 PAIS - No
Other genital abnormalities - No

Feminine-looking facial features, developing a body structure that's more like the female members of your family than the male ones - Somewhat.  Frequently noticed as slightly different than typical by others but they could not quite figure why.  Very lanky and not heavily masculinized but have disproportionately bigger hands, feet and head.  Often told I look like my mother.
Other symptoms of low testosterone such as a lack of body hair, gynecomastica and an inability to build upper body muscle - Light body hair, upper body muscle near-impossible to build.

Very shy, socially passive behaviour as a teenager - Yes
Difficulty forming friendships with boys; having a special affinity with girls - No, but a shift to desiring friendships with girls more started during puberty and continued to heighten from there onward.
Being bullied a lot; having an inability to fight back - Bullied occasionally, knew I was best off not fighting back.
Having no interest in sport - Would have liked sports more but never had sufficient strength or endurance for it.  I only participate now because of the social element.
People tending to assume you're gay; lots of men being attracted to you - Almost always assumed gay.
Identifying as a woman, or part of you identifying as a woman while part identifies as a man - Yes - I'd say I'm a bit of a blend but I am transitioning to a fully female identity and appearance.
Depression- Started in late teens and went slowly but steadily downhill over the next 20 years.
ADHD - No
Other seemingly non gender related psychological problems - Unfocused anxiety that progressively manifested itself with increasing physical ills.  Lowering my testosterone virtually eliminated all traces of this and any lingering depression extremely quickly.

[Sydney_NYC]

Born between 1940 and 1971 (US) or 1980 (elsewhere) - 1970 (US)
Undescended testicles - Nope
Micropenis - a fully formed but considerably shorter than normal penis - Shorter than normal, but I don't think it's a micropenis, but probably close to it.
Hypospadias - No
Epidiymal cysts of the testicles (these are apparently Mullerian remnants - fragments of female tissue that would have been absorbed in normal male development) - non that I'm aware of
Vestigial female organs or organ remnants - Yes
Intersexed genitals similar to grade 3 PAIS - No
Other genital abnormalities - Penis is lower than normal and the distance between the base of the penis and the anus is shorter than normal

Feminine-looking facial features, developing a body structure that's more like the female members of your family than the male ones - Feminine hips and nipples
Other symptoms of low testosterone such as a lack of body hair, gynecomastica and an inability to build upper body muscle - Some gynecomastia, some body hair, definitely had the inability to build upper body muscle

Very shy, socially passive behaviour as a teenager - Yes
Difficulty forming friendships with boys; having a special affinity with girls - Yes
Being bullied a lot; having an inability to fight back - Yes, despite being the tallest kid in school
Having no interest in sport - Zero interest in sports
People tending to assume you're gay; lots of men being attracted to you - Yes
Identifying as a woman, or part of you identifying as a woman while part identifies as a man - Yes
Depression- Sometimes
ADHD - Suspected, but was diagnosed with Asperberger's Syndrome in my 30's
Other seemingly non gender related psychological problems - Asperberger's Syndrome

I was my mother's first born and she didn't have any miscarriages or history of them. However her mom and grandmother did have a history of miscarriages. My mother was given pre-natal vitamins (by injection) from her doctor and it's believed that those pre-natal vitamins contained DES which was very common at the time.

[HughE]

One thing I noticed while chatting in trans groups on facebook about digit ratios and other feminine skeletal markers is that, among the trans women older than 40, they tended to have more pronounced feminine skeletal markers that the ones younger than 40. I'm wondering whether this is something that holds up among trans women in general, and whether it could be due to the change from primarily DES-based miscarriage treatments, to those using progestins.

Aside from making you trans, I think one effect of being exposed to synthetic female hormones such as DES, is that it can mess up the part of your brain that controls hormones (the hypothalamus), so that, later in life, it tries to regulate your hormones as if you were a woman rather than a man. That doesn't fully work, but it does affect your bone and muscle development enough as you're going through your growth spurt so that you end up with a body structure that's more like a woman's than a man's. Maybe progestins don't produce this effect as strongly as estrogens such as DES, or perhaps it's because of a change in prescribing guidelines (the treatments currently used for preventing miscarriages and premature births generally aren't started until quite a bit later in the pregnancy than typically happened with DES).

In my case, it was a lot more noticeable in my teens and twenties, after that testosterone exposure (even at below normal male levels) had masculinised my body to the point where I didn't look particularly different from most guys any more. I've still got the female digit ratio and leg to trunk ratio though (these haven't changed, because after you're aged about 20 or so, your bones stop growing).

Here's a list of biological markers of having below normal male testosterone during childhood and puberty, which are known collectively as a "eunuchoid habitus":

* long, slender arms and legs
* feminine looking facial features
* legs significantly longer than the height of your upper body
* an armspan more than 3cm greater than your height
* sparse or very fine body hair
* a female pubic hair pattern (like an upside down triangle and confined to the pubic area)
* an inability to build upper body muscle
* gynecomastica
* a female carrying angle
* a female digit ratio

Basically you end up with a body structure that's more like the female members of your family than the male ones. This type of body structure is often associated with intersex conditions, and just by asking around, seems to be way more common among MTFs and transfeminine people than among the cis male population, particularly among those of us born in the DES era.

[Allyda]

WoW I can say "yes" to All of the Above in this list^^___^^.

Ally

[Violet Bloom]

* long, slender arms and legs YES
* feminine looking facial features YES
* legs significantly longer than the height of your upper body YES
* an armspan more than 3cm greater than your height No, but my 6'1" height is probably why.  I have a 70" armspan.
* sparse or very fine body hair YES
* a female pubic hair pattern (like an upside down triangle and confined to the pubic area) Not sure, but probably.
* an inability to build upper body muscle YES
* gynecomastia No, but I did experience hard, painful buds behind my nipples for about a year at the start of puberty, disappearing after.  They were far more painful than my HRT-based development.
* a female carrying angle YES
* a female digit ratio 0.9565 puts me almost dead-center between the male and female means.  I don't know what to make of this but it falls in line with the fact that I consider myself somewhat androgynous.

  Very interesting!

[HughE]

Yesterday I was looking through Google Newspapers, and I found this article from 1982 about DES sons:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1320&dat=19820827&id=kj9WAAAAIBAJ&sjid=kOkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1570,8074893

At the time the article was written, it probably wouldn't have been apparent that there were high rates of hypogonadism amongst those exposed in addition to the fertility problems, and I don't think anyone realised there were gender effects at that stage (since most of us go through a long period of denial during which we try to fit in as male).

Nonetheless, it reinforces my opinion that there has been a cover up as far as the effects of DES on biologically male people are concerned, and that the CDC are lying when they claim DES "sons" (many of whom are now daughters!), experienced virtually no effects as a result of their exposure.

Obviously, if large numbers of people can be born intersexed and/or transgender as a result of exposure to one hormone, and the public be kept completely in the dark about that fact, then it makes it increasingly likely that other medical hormones are producing similar effects.

[Laurette Mohr]

  THIS IS ME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes Mom was on Hormones during my pregnancy.She was prescribed progesterone shortly after August 1970 tubal pregnancy so she could successfully have a baby. I was born in November 1971. It all makes sense now. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Emmaline]

Born in 1976 in the Uk
Mother had eight miscarriages
Medical records 'destroyed'
Female identity
Responded well to estrogen
Female carry angle
Female finger ratio
Low self esteem
Feminine features
Sparse body hair, little facial hair
ADHD like symptoms but not ADHD as I respond to speed
Depression
Testicular cysts
Varicocele
Low sperm count and motility
Low semen production
Low testosterone (bottom of male range)
Non specific orchitis (years of testicular pain)
Feminine hip to shoulder ratio
Bullied at school
Men attracted to me (is this seriously a diagnosis point)
Little or no hair loss
Potential gynomastica but mild
Lacked upper body strength

Other notes:
Sensitive to amines, tartrazine.  Hives, sleep disruption and hyperactivity
High iq
Right handed but ambidextrous as child
Father exposed to DDT in high levels- urinary cancers and altzheimers
Mother suffers from multiple sclerosis, womb removed

And a kicker... Mothers sisters confirmed being given DES.  Both had breast cancers and wombs removed.  One daughter is female identified pansexual but has mild gender dysphoria (feels she is missing penis several times a week, among other symptoms).  Does not feel need to transition.

Yay.

[HughE]

Men attracted to me (is this seriously a diagnosis point)

Actually it is. I included it because I was trying to think of all the things that made me different from most men, and that was one of them. When I was younger, I had gay men trying to pick me up just about everywhere I went (and even some seemingly straight ones would start giving me strange looks and acting in an overly friendly way towards me!). Presumably people were seeing a not very masculine looking man with feminine mannerisms and body language, and the way most of them were interpreting it was to immediately assume that I must be gay. It certainly seems to set off gay men's "gaydar" anyway! The irony is that I'm fully gynephilic and don't have any sexual interest in men.

And a kicker... Mothers sisters confirmed being given DES.  Both had breast cancers and wombs removed.  One daughter is female identified pansexual but has mild gender dysphoria (feels she is missing penis several times a week, among other symptoms).  Does not feel need to transition.

Yay.

I have heard that quite a few of the DES daughters have tomboyish behaviour, and that some of them are trans too. My personal theory about that is that it's not due to DES itself, but to progestins. Progestins are a group of synthetic hormones designed to target progesterone receptors, and they were often co-prescribed alongside DES. Although they're supposed to be mimicking a female hormone, all the early progestins were actually derivatives of testosterone, and turned out to have androgenic effects on female fetuses (e.g. see the wikipedia article on progestin induced virilization).

I posted an excerpt from "DES: the complete story" on my facebook timeline, which is one example where progestins were used in addition to DES. The author, a DES mother, was put on the standard "Smith and Smith" DES treatment, but in addition was given progestin injections. When she developed a bad reaction to them, she was put on birth control pills instead for the remainder of the pregnancy (these were one of the earliest BC pills and contained 10mg of progestin per tablet, far more than modern ones do).

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=524576487645524&set=a.251330518303457.36616.100002795317730&type=1

[HughE]

  THIS IS ME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes Mom was on Hormones during my pregnancy.She was prescribed progesterone shortly after August 1970 tubal pregnancy so she could successfully have a baby. I was born in November 1971. It all makes sense now. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're welcome! Just knowing that there is a simple (if unfortunate) explanation for why I'm not quite the same as most people made a big difference to me, which is part of the reason why I'm trying to let trans folks know about what happened with DES.

You say your Mom was prescribed "progesterone" (which usually means progestins). Does that mean you were exposed to progestins rather than DES? If so, that would support a theory I have that progestins can have similar effects as far as male development is concerned as DES (which if true is quite important, because some progestins are still being given to prenant women).