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is androgyne very common?

Started by HelloToYou, December 14, 2006, 04:40:12 PM

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HelloToYou

It seems like it would be...  I mean, do people really think about their gender enough to really say how they feel about it?  I would think people would just be like "well, I'm a girl, so that means my gender identity is female," opposed to really truly being that gender...  Personally, I don't really understand the whole gender thing; I'm just me and if that's feminine or androgynous, I don't know...
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Kendall

Hi HelloToYou,

This is the first post I have seen you write.

To me also, I see very few people that are purely body, mind , soul one gender, though there are some ( a few at this site even) that do do everything male or everything female only (100% male or female).

I have seen many also that unconsciously might be mixing some gender behavior , though I dont know if they are mixed gendered inside. Maybe they are. Mixed gender certainly isnt something that is commonly consciously thought about nor analyzed except at places such as susan's, the therapist's office, or in the minds of the gender crossers themselves (such as myself and everyone here).

I would like to say "yes" that it is more common, and also agree that people don't really think about their gender enough to say otherwise. But I do lack such evidence to prove such claim, being just an educated guess. I would hope that If it were true that they would come to analyze it themselves and one day help the gender cause.

Feel free to introduce yourself introduction section. Welcome again, good post.
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Laurry

Howdy Hello (that sounds a little funny...guess it is better than Hello Hello...hmmmm)

Gender is a funny thing, and not easy to understand.  Most people have a combination of male and female traits, yet still consider themselves to be whatever their birth sex was.  Example, a female (GG - Genetic Girl) with a strong masculine streak will most likely consider herself female, regardless of how strong that streak is.  Some feel so strongly that they identify as male and thus fall into the transsexual category, and others, sense that neither category is correct and identify as Androgyne.  It may just be my limited experience, but it seems like there are more birth-males who identify as androgyne than birth-females...probably because our society accepts (and often encourages) females that display traits that have been traditionally designated as male (such as ambition, independence, aggressivness).  Whereas, society does not embrace the male who acts too feminine...maybe fears of their own latent homosexuality (Rednecks...gotta love em)...or maybe just too many movies where the Cowboy hero whoops the bad guys and rides off in the sunset without even kissing the girl.

To answer your question...No...most people don't think about anything, much less their gender.  It is only those who realize that how they feel or the way they act doesn't fit in with society's norms.  I doubt your average guy at the bowling alley or "gentleman's club" thinks much about their mixture of male and female tendencies...and becomes extremely offended if someone even hints that secretly they wish they could dress like that and dance around the stage.  Maybe a week of "pole dancing" should be mandatory in Jr. High Metal shop... ;D

A couple of comments on your statement "I'm just me and if that's feminine or androgynous, I don't know".  First of all, "I'm just me" is exactly the right attitude.  Be who you are...explore, play, test, read, ask questions...but don't change who you are, just learn to understand who that is and what you need and want.  

My only problem with your statement is the idea that it conveys that you don't know who you are.  Socrates said "The unexamined life is not worth living".  We should all examine our lives, from our belief in God (or not), to how we treat others, to our gender and sexual preferences.  Some things, you just need to know to be a complete person.  As far as a label, the only reason to find a one that comes close (none are ever 100% correct) is so that others know how to relate to you.  The choice of words and actions are completely different when interacting with a male-male as opposed to an MTF as opposed to an Androgyne.  Their thought processes are different and thus communicating requires different styles.  By expressing who you are, you allow others to better relate to you.  If you say "I'm just me", it doesn't give me much of a starting place other than to ask "and?"

Keep in mind that no label is entirely correct...and Androgyne is an extremely broad category.  The reality is that who you are is often a state of mind.  Outwardly, there may not be much difference between a male crossdresser who shaves his legs and an Androgyne that shaves hiz legs (I know, I don't like the funky pronouns either), but if you ask them are they male, the crossdresser will say yes and the Androgyne will give an answer like "sometimes".

Hope this explained things a little.  Please feel free to ask questions and post an Introduction...we'd like to hear more about you.

.....Laurie    
Ya put your right foot in.  You put your right foot out.  You put your right foot in and you shake it all about.  You do the Andro-gyney and you turn yourself around.  That's what it's all about.
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Casey

It seems like most people are told "you are a girl so you are a female, which means you are like this" and they agree for the most part, if not completely. I know (from forums) a GG SO who said that before she reallt knew about CDs she had no reason to question her gender. She was told she was female and that just seemed right to her. It's just something that fits so well for most people they never think to question it. Since humans have this interesting belief that, unless they know otherwise, everybody feels like they do, they just assume everybody feels right in their assigned gender.

Is androgyne very common? I honestly don't know. The Transgender community may be projecting its own self-image on society at large when it says that everybody has some male and some female traits. But irregardless, how many people say they're not female and they're not male but they're something else? That's a major component of being an androgyne. Everyone may (may) have some degree of androgyny but at what point does that raise a red flag and make someone examine their gender, let alone identify as androgyne?
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bananaslug


I would think there are lot of people who fall under the umbrella 'androgyne' who either don't realise it or don't identify as androgyne.
It is only in the past year or so,  that I came to the realisation that I was androgyne.

I'm sure we all have different opinions and views on gender.
 
If there is a common thread to androgyny - it is to be yourself!
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Nero

Quote from: LaurieO on December 14, 2006, 05:38:18 PM I doubt your average guy at the bowling alley or "gentleman's club" thinks much about their mixture of male and female tendencies...and becomes extremely offended if someone even hints that secretly they wish they could dress like that and dance around the stage.  Maybe a week of "pole dancing" should be mandatory in Jr. High Metal shop... ;D    

LOL Truer than you know and I absolutely love you for making this comment. :-*
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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HelloToYou

Quote from: LaurieO on December 14, 2006, 05:38:18 PMMy only problem with your statement is the idea that it conveys that you don't know who you are.  Socrates said "The unexamined life is not worth living".  We should all examine our lives, from our belief in God (or not), to how we treat others, to our gender and sexual preferences.  Some things, you just need to know to be a complete person.  As far as a label, the only reason to find a one that comes close (none are ever 100% correct) is so that others know how to relate to you.  The choice of words and actions are completely different when interacting with a male-male as opposed to an MTF as opposed to an Androgyne.  Their thought processes are different and thus communicating requires different styles.  By expressing who you are, you allow others to better relate to you.  If you say "I'm just me", it doesn't give me much of a starting place other than to ask "and?"

I have examined both my gender and my sexuality.  From analyzing both, I became very confused.  I decided that remaining label-less was better than being confused.  I suppose I'm not a terribly sexual person and I alternate between hyposexual and asexual, and although I dress like a girl, I don't feel particularly feminine.  I have always felt a little different, but what teenager hasn't?  I suppose I could label myself as a gender-neutral hypo/asexual.  Too confusing of a label... I'm just me, works fine.  I don't think having those things figured out has much to do with people's ability to relate to or communicate to you.  You're not going to announce those things to someone once you meet them.... you're going to talk to them and they're going to get a feel for what you're like
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wildandfree

wow, someone who sees things my way!  i enjoy saying that I am just me.  yes, my husband says i have several masculine traits as well as feminine traits, perhaps i am androgyn, perhaps i am bi-sexual... like you, i'm not a very sexual person.  I think the thing is, is that once i realize i am androgyn, or bi-sexual, i am content with that.  I don't wake up every morning thinking... "i am an androgyn."  "I am a bi-sexual."  I wake up and say "I am me, and I am content with that."  There is no need to obsess over it. 
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Kendall

Just looking at the best data I have for approximate numbers.

Current Peer Group Androgyne =16
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=groups

Amount of person transgender from poll at =117 https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2290.0.html

16/117 = 13.68%  My first approximate percentage of Androgynes out of transgender persons.

** This percentage is probably too high , since the peer group more is for approximate members on whole site, and other number is just members that voted in poll. Looking at vote, only 8 androgynes voted, so maybe the number is more of half this number and more like 6.75%.
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VeryGnawty

Technically, everyone is androgynous.  People only identify as masculine or feminine because social consciousness has defined them as such.  But even in someone hypermasculine, there is always a feminine.  And vice-versa.

Yin-Yang, and all that jazz.
"The cake is a lie."
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tinkerbell

Question if you don't mind:


lf androgyny is a mixture of masculine and feminine, why do some androgynous people opt to look more feminine or masculine than others?.  If I take some of your pictures as an example, I can see that Kendra looks more feminine than masculine IMO, and VeryGnawty looks more masculine than feminine....why is that? thank you for your answers.

tinkerbell :icon_chick:
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VeryGnawty

Quote from: Tinkerbell on January 27, 2007, 01:11:44 AMwhy do some androgynous people opt to look more feminine or masculine than others?

Personal preference, really.  I chose a look that works for me right now.  Although I do sense an increasing feminine presence, which will eventually come out in my appearance as well.

I look how I feel.  It's not so much the appearance, or even the gender, that makes someone androgynous.  It's the knowledge of what those appearances and genders represent.  With sufficient knowledge, one sees that masculine and feminine are just two sides of the same coin.  But you are never really masculine or feminine.  Rather, you are the coin.
"The cake is a lie."
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Kendall

#12
How you look relates to your gender expression (Androgynous). Which is sometimes related to Gender Identity (Androgyne).

GENDER EXPRESSION
(communication of gender)

masculine ------------------------------ androgynous ----------------------------- feminine

GENDER IDENTITY
(psychological sense of self)

man --------------------------------Androgyne, Neutrois, two spirit/third gender ------------------------ woman



Something which is not on this list that you put here https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,9218.0.html.

Something which is on the list such as here http://www.gendersanity.com/diagram.shtml.

QuoteGender expression is everything we do that communicates our sex/gender to others: clothing, hair styles, mannerisms, way of speaking, roles we take in interactions, etc. This communication may be purposeful or accidental. It could also be called social gender because it relates to interactions between people. Trappings of one gender or the other may be forced on us as children or by dress codes at school or work. Gender expression is a continuum, with feminine at one end and masculine at the other. In between are gender expressions that are androgynous (neither masculine nor feminine) and those that combine elements of the two (sometimes called gender bending). Gender expression can vary for an individual from day to day or in different situations, but most people can identify a range on the scale where they feel the most comfortable. Some people are comfortable with a wider range of gender expression than others.

Quotewhy do some androgynous people opt to look more feminine or masculine than others?. 

Where as androgyne is a gender identity, Androgynous is a gender expression. Not all androgynes are androgynous. Many of my gay friends that have very male gender identities, have very feminine gender expressions or androgynous expressions. A bigender normally isnt androgynous where as a intergender, fluid, or neutrois would more likely be androgynous. Bigender would only more likely express masculine or feminine when that part of them is at the drivers seat.

My GF is a GG. Currently she has a very masculine or androgynous appearance in her expression. She does not have a male gender identity of a male. Nor is she anatomicaly (sex) male.

So what you see in the pictures is the gender expression that each person decides to express at that period of time. Which is varies even with gender identities, gender roles, and sex. And it can change, just as one's appearance, roles, voice,  and manners can change at work vs at home. Several women I know take on very masculine expressions at work, but come home and are very girly. Their professional expressions at work are just to project more assertiveness and power. It doesnt change their gender identity.

I do post a lot about androgynous stuff under the androgyne section since even out on the web, references are hard to find. And several androgynes incorporate it into their daily gender expression.

So when you see pics like this you may see me experimenting with feminine expressions. Having shown these, these are not how I look on a daily basis.



Which is much different than when I am expressing like this which is more my daily expression.



Or more masculine:


So how someone looks in the profile, depends on mood of what they think looks nice or what they want to show at the moment. How one looks daily depends on the reason, expression, purpose, knowledge, and comfort level.


Hmmmm interesting. Taking myself out to a formal occasion. I like it.... New profile pic. Showing my extremes in gender expression. This is my sorta Brad & Angelina inspired modified pic.




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Shana A

There are many possible expressions of androgyny. My general preference for myself tends toward female expression, but it isn't always possible to do this in daily life, alas.

zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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TheBattler

Thanks Ken/Kendra,

It is a very interesting post about gender expression. Things are changing with me and I may need to express my feminity more often.

Alice
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Kendall

Even when I did the androgyne posts for hair and body hair, I had to take into account some differences in expressions. For example; since everything can vary in body hair I cover everything from eyebrows (though not all may shape eyebrows) to facial hair, which of course not all may desire or want. Androgyne expressions vary, so sometimes I just fill in also topics such as the facial hair a because I could not find any info on this site, so having it fills in a blank. Another example is in hair loss in the hair section, I mention some tips for male and female hair loss. Though certainly many dont loss hair. And even then, hair styles can vary in length and styles.
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Laurry

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on January 27, 2007, 04:49:14 AMSo when you see pics like this you may see me experimenting with feminine expressions. Having shown these, these are not how I look on a daily basis.

Curious...if we kept it locked up so the public couldn't see it and restricted it to members with x number of posts (like we do for reading profiles, etc), or even restricted it to the Androgyne Peer Support area...how many people would be interested in posting a picture of their "everyday" appearance?  Maybe even add the male/female versions too?  I thought about putting up a picture of me (with my whiskers) wearing makeup and mixed gender clothing, but didn't want the world to see it and wasn't sure how to lock it up. 

As far as androgynous expression...I tend to dress and express myself in whatever seems best for the time, and how I feel about it.  The workplace puts certain limitations on this, as do other activities.  Just like the old candy bar slogan, sometimes I feel like being girly, sometimes I don't.   

And one last parting shot a Ken/Kendra...just because I can.  That is a very nice picture of you in the tux...quite a handsome fella.  How long ago was that, as you have hair and less weight?  Also, did you think you were Napolean, or were you just feeling yourself up?  (I know, that was tacky...please forgive me, but that little devil sitting on my shoulder (you know, the one with the red nails you would die for?) made me do it.)

.....Laurie

Ya put your right foot in.  You put your right foot out.  You put your right foot in and you shake it all about.  You do the Andro-gyney and you turn yourself around.  That's what it's all about.
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tinkerbell

Yes, thank you very much everyone for sharing your answers.

tinkerbell :icon_chick:
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Pica Pica

'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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