Different degrees of transsexuality?

[Nero]

I've heard stuff about some TS being 'clear-cut cases' of transsexuality.
But what would make one TS a 'clear cut case' and the other not?
Or is TSism like being pregnant- you either are or you're not period, there is no in-between?
I've seen the chart about TS - if you're this , this, or that, you're a type VI transsexual, or type V, etc.
And it's primarily based on how much one desires SRS or not. But since many if not most FtMs don't have SRS (least not in the genital sense), then it just doesn't seem applicable in my case.
So the question is - is there a sliding scale of transsexuality?
It seems like it shouldn't matter, but it does to me, as I'm trying to figure things out.

[Julie Marie]

Hi

I definitely believe there are varying degrees of transsexuality.  There are some people who seem to be driven to completing their transition and some who want to take it slowly to make sure they will be comfortable in their new life.  And everyone in between.  There's a lot more than wanting to live a life in the gender opposite the one you were born.  I wish it were so simple.  But everyone is different and we all have different situations affecting our decisions.

I think this is the chart below is the one you're referring to.  I felt I was Type V with some traits of Type VI.  Whatever, knowing that didn't help me at all with making my decision.  Spending time in a female role then having to go back to a male role told me all I needed to know.  I hate living life as a man!  The awful feelings inside me when I've had to revert to male made the decision easy.

Julie

TYPE 0 
Normal sexual orientation and identification, heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual. The ideas of "dressing" or "sex change" are foreign and unpleasant. Includes the vast majority of all people. 
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TYPE I - ->-bleeped-<- (Pseudo)
Gender "feeling": Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Normal male life. May get a "kick" from "dressing". Not truly TV.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Usually heterosexual. Rare bisexual. Masturbation with fetish. Feels guilt. "Purges" and relapses.
Conversion Operation (SRS): Not considered in reality.
Hormone Therapy/Estrogen Therapy: Not considered. / Not indicated.
Psychotherapy: Not wanted. Unnecessary.
Remarks: Only a sporadic interest in "dressing". Rarely has a female name when "dressed".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TYPE II - ->-bleeped-<- (Fetishistic)
Gender "feeling": Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Dresses periodically or part time. Dresses under male clothes.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Usually heterosexual. May be bisexual or homosexual. "Dressing" and "sex change" in masturbation fantasy mainly.
Conversion Operation (SRS): May consider in fantasy. Rejected
Hormone Therapy/Estrogen Therapy: Rarely interested. / May help to reduce libido.
Psychotherapy: May be successful in favorable environment.
Remarks: May imitate male & female double personality with male and female names.
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TYPE III - ->-bleeped-<- - True
Gender "feeling": Masculine (but with less conviction)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: "Dresses" constantly or as often as possible. May live and be accepted as a woman. May dress under male clothes.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual except when dressed. Dressing gives sexual satisfaction, relief of gender discomfort. Common to purge and relapse.
Conversion Operation (SRS): Rejected but the idea is attractive.
Hormone Therapy/Estrogen Therapy: Attractive as an experiment. / Can be helpful as a diagnostic.
Psychotherapy: If attempted, almost never successful as to cure.
Remarks: May assume a double personality. Trend may be toward Transsexualism
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TYPE IV - Transsexual - Non-Surgical
Gender "feeling": Uncertain Wavering between TV and TS. May reject "gender".
Dressing Habits and Social Life: "Dresses" often as possible with insufficient relief of gender discomfort. May live as man or as a woman.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido low. Generally asexual or autoerotic. May be bisexual.
Conversion Operation (SRS): Attractive but not required.
Hormone Therapy/Estrogen Therapy: Needed for comfort & emotional balance.
Psychotherapy: Only as guidance, most often refused and unsuccessful.
Remarks: Social life dependant on circumstances. Often identifies as "transgenderist".
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TYPE V - True Transsexual - Moderate Intensity
Gender "feeling": Feminine "Trapped" in a male body.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as a woman if possible. Insufficient relief from "dressing".
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Low libido. Asexual, autoerotic, or passive homosexual activity. May have been married and have children.
Conversion Operation (SRS): Requested.
Hormone Therapy/Estrogen Therapy: Needed for a substitute for or preliminary to SRS operation.
Psychotherapy: Rejected. Unless as to cure. Permissive psychological guidance.
Remarks: Operation hoped for and worked for, often attained.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TYPE VI - True Transsexual - High Intensity
Gender "feeling": Feminine. Total "psycho-sexual" inversion.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Usually lives & works as a woman. No relief from "dressing". Gender discomfort intense.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Intensely desires relations with normal male as a "female" if young. Later libido low. Heterosexual, bisexual or lesbian identification. May have been married and have children.
Conversion Operation (SRS): Urgently requested and usually attained.
Hormone Therapy/Estrogen Therapy: Required for partial relief.
Psychotherapy: Psychological guidance or psychotherapy for symptomatic relief only.
Remarks: Despises her male sex organs. Strong danger of genital self-mutilation or even suicide if too long frustrated before SRS is attained.

[Kate]

I've never been a fan of this scale. IMHO, transvestism and transsexualism are completely seperate phenomena. I don't believe ->-bleeped-<-s "become" or evolve into transsexuals. I don't think the two are on the same scale at all. I do realize that many transvestities due in fact pursue physical changes, but their motives are different than that of transsexuals, methinks. Both often end up in the same place, but I think the motives and routes to it are completely different.

[brina]

Hiee,

  I don't believe in the idea of someone being a little transexual. One either is or they aren't. If you feel a compulsion to change your physical self and your current life presentation at all and any expense to the gender you feel that you are then I would assume that you are in fact transexual. If on the other hand you have reasons that you can come up with to not do so then I would question it. A primary litmus test I think is getting rid of ones birth gendered sex hormones assuming there is not an underlying condition for those hormones being exceedingly low to begin with. A natal female I would expect while not having phalioplasty WOULD have a hystorectomy to be rid of the estrogen and progesterone and more then be willing to take testosterone as a life long replacement.

  There seems to be an increasing number of Male Cd's and ->-bleeped-<-s looking to take hormones for a minimal change to thier bodies physically and from talking with them its my impression it has ALL to do with not having to bother the prosthetics, but at the same time keeping developement to the point where it can be hidden when they present as their identified gender.

Byee,
  Brina

[brina]

The main elements still remain in that Transexuals are the only ones that WILL Physically alter their bodies via hormones and surgory. The big issue today seems to be with the CD's and TV's who wish to PLAY with hormones for minimal changes but STILL IDENTIFY Totally as Male or I suppose Female. I should clarify my position slightly in this respect. I still adhere to the idea that a CD is one who periodically dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex whereas a TV lives and presents full time as such even though both IDENTIFY as thier respective birth genders. For males if one wishes to present as female and yet retain their male labido/sex drive then they are NOT Transexual in my opinion. I think the same would also apply to females.

Byee,
  Brina

[Julie Marie]

I've never been a fan of this scale. IMHO, transvestism and transsexualism are completely seperate phenomena. I don't believe ->-bleeped-<-s "become" or evolve into transsexuals. I don't think the two are on the same scale at all. I do realize that many transvestities due in fact pursue physical changes, but their motives are different than that of transsexuals, methinks. Both often end up in the same place, but I think the motives and routes to it are completely different.

However one can fool themselves by saying they are TV.  I started out identifying myself as a crossdresser.  Then I decided transgender described me better.  I remember my wife and daughter responding with surprise.  "I thought you were a crossdresser!"  I still wouldn't admit I was transsexual then.  Then I opened Pandora's Box.

"You can't put toothpaste back in the tube."

Julie

[Kate]

The big issue today seems to be with the CD's and TV's who wish to PLAY with hormones for minimal changes but STILL IDENTIFY Totally as Male or I suppose Female.

Just to play devil's advocate, there is a theory out there that ALL gender-variant people are actually transsexuals in various stages of denial and coping, suggesting that "that there is only one cause, one conflict, one condition — but there are many reactions and adjustments to it."

Within this theory, even the most fetishistic crossdresser is simply a transsexual coping with his/her condition as best he/she can for the moment. They may never see past their immediate sexual indulges, or they may someday realize that their condition goes much deeper than they thought. But however they adapt to their condition, the cause is considered the same.

In this theory, any "scale" would only describe one's degree of self-acceptance, and not an "intensity" of dysphoria.

I must admit that this idea is much more appealing to me, poetically-speaking, then the opinon I posted previously.

[Hazumu]

TYPE VI - True Transsexual - High Intensity
Remarks: Despises her male sex organs. Strong danger of genital self-mutilation...

How can I despise my raw materials?    I want the surgeon to have as much pristine material to work with as possible!

Karen

[HelenW]

Wow!  Another labeling exercise?  I want to be a type VII - a TS person that doesn't care where in the blinkin' list she falls into!

I like the theory that Kate has told us about.  My personal experience seems to confirm the idea.  But shoving myself into an apparent hierarchy such as the "0 thru VI" list is counterproductive, in my most humble opinion.  And the comments in the list regarding orientation seen to spring out of the discredited Blanchard/Baily/Lawrence theories which makes me dislike them even more.

We are all individuals with individual genetics as well as tempraments and life experiences.  How our transsexuality affects us will be just as individual, if ya ask me.

but, Hugs & Smiles anyway!!
helen

[brina]

Hiee Kate,

  I think that theory totally sux! I have yet to meet a CD or TV that doesn't express horror at the propect of loosing mr winky. In fact I have been bashed on more then one occassion for my desire to proceed with my remaining SRS by members of the proceeding group(s). I do admit though that many transexuals pass thru those phases as they learn that they are in fact transexual. As I've said before and I'll say again most of the transgender spectrum excluding transexuals seems to be interested in practicing gender deception!

Byee,
  Brina

[Ricki]

Sorry Brina,
I do not agree with this part of your post.........

If you feel a compulsion to change your physical self and your current life presentation at all and any expense to the gender you feel that you are then I would assume that you are in fact transexual. If on the other hand you have reasons that you can come up with to not do so then I would question it

Transitioning involves a whole lot more than just surgeries.  For many it involves spouses, loved ones, kids, arrangements, finances, geography,  etc..that is to name a broad few.
I do not question my ->-bleeped-<- one bit, but in light of not transitioning for "my reasons" it does not mean i am not valid....
These things cannot be looked at through one lens of a microscope and all be called the same.
sorry
Ricki

[Brianna]

I like labels, as long as they convey meaningful definitions and lack ad hominim attacks.

They are clearly degrees of transsexuality. I think that when I look at my own life and ask myself why I avoided the traps I see so commonly with the older transsexuals (marriage, male presentation, being set in ways beyond change), I think it's because I felt more strongly about being a woman that others did - and this led to early transition.

I also like this 6 point scale. It also seems accurate to me - though I agree with  that it's not relevant to F2Ms.

This is also not a popular opinion, but I also think there are degrees of success in regards to transsexuality. On one end is developing skills such as voice, plausable presentation, and learning communication concordant with the self-identified gender. At the other is cognative disonance and not feeling it is important enough to learn.

Bri

[umop ap!sdn]

I've heard some cisgendered folks say that it really doesn't matter to them what gender they are, whereas others seem to identify with their gender as strongly as the most driven of us. So I'd imagine there may be degrees of gender identity, but whether or not one is TS is not a matter of the degree but of whether or not their identity is inconsistent with their birth sex. I agree that transvestism and transsexualism don't really belong on the same scale, although I can understand how psychologists may be tempted to make scales like these that compare how much a patient resembles one or the other definition.

I admit though it's kinda cool that the description for VI describes me almost exactly.

[brina]

Succesful transtion means to me the following: I will have moved from presenting/livng as male to my identified gender/sex of female. I will be able to function normally on a day to day basis as such and provide for myself and dependents(if any). I will be part of main stream society and related to as such. To much emphasis is placed on PURE physical appearance and to a lesser extent a overly feminine voice. These are not pre-requisites for success and interaction with society will dictate to what extent corrections need be made for acceptance.

Byee,
  Brina

[SusanK]

I've heard stuff about some TS being 'clear-cut cases' of transsexuality.
But what would make one TS a 'clear cut case' and the other not?
Or is TSism like being pregnant- you either are or you're not period, there is no in-between?

There's lots of in-between. What I read here is catagories than degrees. I view it as a spectrum of male to female (man to woman if you want too) with a huge overlap between the two in the innate feelings and public expressions (which also varys with each society and culture through history), so it's not fixed by any means.

I also see everyone as being both male and female, and man and woman, in our own proportion, like two parallel bar graphs. There is the basic nature part where we are who, and there is the nuture (socialization) which adds to both, usually one from family, friends, experience, etc. Sort of like for m2f's:

  |           |           |
  |           | _ _ _ _ |
  |_______|   New  |
  |   Old    | Nuture |
  | Nuture |_______|
  |_______|           |
  |           |           |
  | Nature | Nature |
  |           |           |
  |_______|_______|
     Male      Female

The proportion of nature of each within us varys where if the female nature is strong it will clearly present itself over any nuture. But in some, the nuture (enforced or self-induced) will subdue the female nature until it is removed and move to the female side.

And it's also variable with hormones, as we see in the our development and in our transistion. We're fluid in our identity to some degree nature provided which can explain why we can change.  And why there are infinite degrees and expressions of ->-bleeped-<-, and even transsexualism since we all become women of different personalities, temperaments and expression. Good old fashioned human diversity. Ok, sometimes run amuck.

[Personal note. I expressed this to my therapist and explained there is a little girl on top of the male nuture side jumping up and down, and it's ever so slowly breaking, cracking and wearing away. And another little girl on the other side building the new nuture side.]

Just my thoughts.

--Susan--

[Lyric]

I've thought a good deal about that 7 level scale, too. To me, it seems to be a useful stepping stone in the evolution of understanding transsexuality and other transgender states, but a simplistic one, really. I think a more accurate scale would have to be two or three dimensional, rather than linier. We are not all experiencing different degrees of the same condition. Transsexuals seek correction. "->-bleeped-<-s" (hateful clinical word!) seek enhancement. Androgenes seek to selectively experience the range of gender identity. Each one may have it's own degree scale.

It's good to look for simpler ways of viewing the very complex, but I would take any such explanation too literally.

[tinkerbell]

I like labels, as long as they convey meaningful definitions and lack ad hominim attacks.

They are clearly degrees of transsexuality. I think that when I look at my own life and ask myself why I avoided the traps I see so commonly with the older transsexuals (marriage, male presentation, being set in ways beyond change), I think it's because I felt more strongly about being a woman that others did - and this led to early transition.

I also like this 6 point scale. It also seems accurate to me - though I agree with Nero that it's not relevant to F2Ms.

This is also not a popular opinion, but I also think there are degrees of success in regards to transsexuality. On one end is developing skills such as voice, plausable presentation, and learning communication concordant with the self-identified gender. At the other is cognative disonance and not feeling it is important enough to learn.

Bri

 

tinkerbell

[LynnER]

Being a punkrocker, Ive allways been anti establishment... but when a lable fits it fits....  The ranking system there needs some work but I find I fit allmostperfectly into the type VI catagory  *shrugs*  Well, the more of us that become educated on the subject the better... and eventualy ittle lead to some change for the better....  remember were still trailblazeing the path for those still to come in the future....

[cindianna_jones]

I'm a strong type X.  That's TEN!

Yes, off the scale.

I'm luscious, I'm beautiful, I'm warm and gracious.  I'm also very modest.

Cindi

[Ricki]

Definately not a post where there is the clearcut "black or white" labelling..
Regardless of how some percieve it or think it in their own reality. 
An old freind told me a person's perception is their reality.  So people have different realities.
this cannot be a black and white litmus...it has to have a degree of coloring.
and tsk.. tsk.. for any of us who put our issues ahead of others.  a ->-bleeped-<- is no sicker or illegitimate than we are they just have their own issues they struggle with.
enough said
with kind and endearing love for all ages
Ricki
yes the post (get it post) Xmas cheer is flowing tonight!