How to get through the psycho tests

[spacial]

I think cheating on such tests is stupid. If you really are TS, they will come to just this conclusion. And if you are not TS, you better don't try to fool somebody, cause in the end you're only fooling yourself.
Of course, it is interesting to see how psychologists work.

I think many of us would agree with you if there were anything, even remotely, scientific about any of this nonsense.

The reality is that these people are simply applying subjective judgements, claiming they have some qualification.

We need to get past these people so we can access the real medicine. Any road to the destination as they say.

http://theinkblot.com

that isn't a proper Rorschach.  It was concocted by some idiot who had been weaned on sci-fi and satanic movies.
I couldn't tick any of the boxes for each figure. so it said I was lacking in imagination.

The page is intended to be a joke. Note the selection of responses. Mind you, no more so than this type of psychology as a whole.

I recall, when I was given this test at 11 years, the tester tried to point out some of the dangly features, though, of course, this isn't really allowed. That's how I managed to figure out that I was suppose to see rude bits. At 11, I wasn't yet seeing rude things everywhere!!

[Fencesitter]

I think cheating on such tests is stupid. If you really are TS, they will come to just this conclusion. And if you are not TS, you better don't try to fool somebody, cause in the end you're only fooling yourself.
Of course, it is interesting to see how psychologists work.

Well I think it depends on the test. Cheating on a valid test is stupid. However, boykotting an esoteric bogus test is an act of self-defense (and useful to know for job appointments as well, as lilacwoman pointed out).

By the way, the inkblot test link which was posted here shows the original images, but drawn a bit differently. So whoever made this test cannot ever be rorschach-tested "validly" any more. 
Oh, and something else. Many people try hard to see rude bits everywhere in this test as they think it must be something Freudian so they're expected to find sexual imagery everywhere. Which is a big mistake to do, it will give a pathological test result like you're a pervert sex-maniac or something like that. What annoys me most is that the Rorschach test is sometimes used for parents, for expertises for child custody cases, esp. in the USA.

And sure, you can always change the therapist or just run out. But here, for surgery and name change, you need two  "experts" reports. You cannot always choose them freely as there's not many of them, esp. if you live in a region with not much choice. Sometimes, it may take you months or even one year until you get your first appointment. You don't need many appointments for the reports, but often, they want you to come and see them for a year or so. So if you find out your expert loves bogus tests, changing the expert just further delays the surgery. By a year or so.

We don't have many experts here who use the Rorschach or the Draw-a-person test for transsexuals, but they do exist. So it's good to know how to avoid this crap, just in case.

However, we have quite a lot of experts who refer to us with the right pronouns etc. during the appointments, but refer to FTMs as "women" and "she" and to MTFs as "men" and "he" in their academic writings, even if they mean post-op people. Which makes us feel like they're kidding us, for good reasons. Why should I take such experts seriously, respect them or rely on their judgement to find out whether I'm trans or not and be completely honest and open to them? To me, such people are just nuisances, or annoying obstacles to overcome.

[Lacey Lynne]

Next point: IQ-Tests[/b]
Another thing I'm gonna do if I ever get confronted with tests, is to break down my IQ. In online tests etc., I usually score 135- 140 without special training, which is very high. I want to break it down to about 110, and I will train that in advance  so that my score gets to this point. Not lower than that, as it might become obvious then that I'm tricking cause of my university degree (with a very good graduation). Well I can still say I had a headache that day or just was sloppy, I'll have to look up which minimal IQ psycho shrinks expect from university people. Plus with the dissociative identity disorder I cured out, I cannot hide myself behind a normal IQ  score of about 100. You cannot get this disorder if your intelligence is average, most people with it are both very creative and very intelligent, so an IQ of 100 may make people suspicious. I gotta have an IQ of 110, not much higher, but that would help to make my score credible.

I want to score so that it seems still understandable that I have a university degree, but I don't make these people afraid or suspicious of me. Psycho shrinks won't be angry at me either if our scores don't differ too much (they probably have made this test for themselves). Though this is all stupid as the IQ doesn't measure much and cannot measure creativity at all, and many other gifts as well. But well... people... They love the IQ test and think it measures intelligence. Bull->-bleeped-<-.

People tend to feel uncomfortable or even hateful if you can beat them intellectually under certain circumstances:

a) you make them feel intellecutally inferior, whiich I really try not to do. Some of my best friends are mentally handicapped, and I love that they use their powers at full force - which makes them sometimes more intelligent and open-minded than "normal" people, who often tend to not wanna think. We're fine with each other as I treat them with the respect they deserve, other than most people do who treat them as childrien. And vice-versa, they respect me. Well and often, they get under-estimated as they can understand things on a level you woudln't expect as they often speak like children but can understand language like university students if you skip the special vocabulary.

But well I don't have much patience with people who don't use the brains they have out of laziness. For me it's mostly important that people use!!! their brains to learn and open their minds. No matter how much brain they have. And this is what usually both mentally handicapped people and creative geniuses do, other than "normal" people who usually hate to get disturbed in their routine and don't like to get into a situation where they have to use their brains to question pre-conceived opinions. I hate that, and I have no patience for it.

b) the shrinks don't like to deal with gifted people in general, or they hear about your IQ score and get somehow angry at you for it. It's annoying, but that's the reactions you might have to deal with. And with a gatekeeper, this gets really really uncomfortable. Or anybody else. This is why in my private live I usually don't tell people how I score, or that I went to university at all unless I know them well. We have a strong pressure for comformity here in Germany, almost like in Japan, and being different from other people is not well accepted by society, even if it's different by being highly intelligent. So you better hide it. 

I know a friend of mine who got into trouble in a completely different context with gatekeepers (not trans-related) cause of her extremely high IQ score (hairdresser, IQ 145), she scored extremely high and really got shunned for it among therapists. I know her very well, she's not telling stories, the IQ score she related is realistic, and yes, she's a hairdresser. So she got used to trick these tests down to IQ 110-120 as well in order to not hurt gatekeepers too much or make them feel too inferior. So she got the treatment she needed. Some people just don't get along with having to deal with a person who can trick them out, or who scores much higher in IQ tests than themselves. (IQ tests are silly anyway, as creativity etc. cannot be scored with them, I repeat that again, but many people don't get it so repetition is the best thing here to get rid of this bullsh*t.)

Dude !

Amen, AMEN, AMEN !

Look, I'm not saying this to try and compete with or upstage you in any way.  I'm agreeing with you to the max.  Christ, story of my life, man.  Truer words were never spoken. 

For the brief time that I was on The Wiki Staff here at Susan's Place, I wrote 2 articles in what was going to be a series of articles on this very subject.  Yes, management wanted other things addressed on our wiki, but I thought this matter to be of paramount importance and started to address it. 

I'll keep this very brief, because you stated your case very well here, indeed!  Moreover, suffice it to say that the isolation, rejection and dejection one can (AND DOES!) face because of this "brightness trip" is every bit as severe and depressing as that which we face from being trans.  Put the two situations together, and the difficulty you face is exponentially greater and more difficult. 

Amazingly enough, it seems that a good number of trans people seem to be at least bright if not downright brilliant.  Often times, I think gender counselors make a "red herring diagnosis" mistakenly thinking that their bright client's isolation and difficulty all stems exclusively from being trans.  That's all I'll say about the matter.  Don't want to go on and on as is my wont and alienate and bore people by so doing. 

You've got it goin' on, dude ... you REALLY do!   Everything you've said about this issue is SOOO true.  You're not alone, man.  For what that's worth, you are NOT alone.  Thanks for this spot-on post.   

As you've so well stated here, having to do the go along to get along thing REALLY BLOWS and is every bit as bad as being transsexual and not being able to transition!!!

Transition fixes transness.  What fixes this other condition?   Not a damned thing, man ... 

[Fencesitter]

Look, I'm not saying this to try and compete with or upstage you in any way.  I'm agreeing with you to the max.  Christ, story of my life, man.  Truer words were never spoken.

For the brief time that I was on The Wiki Staff here at Susan's Place, I wrote 2 articles in what was going to be a series of articles on this very subject.  Yes, management wanted other things addressed on our wiki, but I thought this matter to be of paramount importance and started to address it.

Sad they didn't include it in their Wiki. Do you still have the articles? Maybe you can send me them per PM. Nice to know I'm not alone here, though at the same time, I feel sorry for you.

I'll keep this very brief, because you stated your case very well here, indeed!  Moreover, suffice it to say that the isolation, rejection and dejection one can (AND DOES!) face because of this "brightness trip" is every bit as severe and depressing as that which we face from being trans.  Put the two situations together, and the difficulty you face is exponentially greater and more difficult.

You make a very very good point here. Wow, I've never thought much about it, but yes, you're right. Absolutely right. That was eye-opening. Thank you!

Either you suffer from isolation, or the only people who get along with you (and vice versa) are like you or don't mind you being the way you are. For every-day life, it's useful to try to pass as "normal" - if you can - and not make them know what's up with you so you don't get rejected. And even if that works, you still feel like a human among martians or vice versa, very different from the other people; it's okay for superficial acquaintances, but does not work for deep friendships. The biggest annoyance is when you have to deal with people who don't want to use their brains to question their own prejudices (no matter if these prejudices affect you personally or not).

$64 Question:
Did I just describe the situation of
[  ] trans people?
[  ] highly intelligent people?
[  ] both?

Amazingly enough, it seems that a good number of trans people seem to be at least bright if not downright brilliant.  Often times, I think gender counselors make a "red herring diagnosis" mistakenly thinking that their bright client's isolation and difficulty all stems exclusively from being trans.  That's all I'll say about the matter.  Don't want to go on and on as is my wont and alienate and bore people by so doing. 

I've been writing so much stuff in this forum already and I'm sure lots of people think - oh no, another endless posting by Fencesitter. That guy needs to get his keyboard locked away on warrant. But some people read my stuff nevertheless, others can just skip my postings, and it's also good for venting. Really good.
I'd say don't be afraid to write down your own stuff as well here, or send me a PM, I'd enjoy reading your story.

I've also made the observation that lots of trans people seem to be at least bright. At least, in my life, I had a lot of  luck, and met quite a lot of transgendered and genderqueer people even long before transition (not via the internet, they just happened to be neighbors etc., mind you!), as well as people who didn't shun me for being highly intelligent, so isolation has never been so much of an issue for me. I was very lucky. However, it has always been a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack, or being confined to tiny subcultures. 

And the "red herring diagnosis" problem might well be true. Plus, it makes lots of people uncomfortable dealing with highly intelligent people, but also with gender-variant people as this goes against one of the most basic rules of society.  I don't know how trans "experts" and gender therapists get along with patients who have a combination of both, but I think some of the early transphobic "scientific" reports they wrote about us decades ago might also have had this aspect going into it.

Let me add to this that a gatekeeper system, which kind of puts people under tutelage and dictates them what step of transition to do in which order and which way, makes you feel like you're treated like an idiot who cannot make sound decisions for yourself. (I'm not talking about useful orders like getting breast implants only after hormones have caused some growth or getting the surgery only after you have been full-time for a while etc., but about the German system with its obligatory 1.5 years of therapy and its sacro-sanct obligatory 1-year non-hormonal real life test, which has probably been thought of by people who are transphobic or less bright than they think they are.) This tutelage is humiliating for everybody anyway, but, I guess, particularly difficult to deal with for highly intelligent people. I'd say it can even be traumatizing; at least that's the effect it had on me.

Then they tell you that you should trust them and open up to them and tell them the truth, and that they have the best for you in mind and need as much information as they can get about you to "help" you deal with your other problemas and to decide for you if you get hormones+surgery allowed or not, in your best interest of course. Which, if hormones+surgery are the main reason why you go there, is not only overly hypocrite, but also an abuse of confidence and as anti-therapeutic as can be.

Sorry, I really cannot open up in such a setting without losing my self-respect. It does not help either if you know that whatever the "experts" use as a base for their decisions about your life results from the distortions caused by the gatekeeping system and many of us having had to lie to the shrinks, or still lying. And you still see many "experts" take this data for granted. This is not a bright attitude, you know how flawed it is, but they have the power.

I've read an alarming recent Dutch report yesterday where the experts had put together counter-indications for surgery by making statistics from data they had gathered about post-surgery regrets. Which would be awesome if they used the data for warning people and maybe slowing down their okay for surgery a bit to give trans people more time to think about whether they really want it. But they were trying to find out who they'd let have surgery at all in the future and who not based on these statistics. And honestly, I'm sure lots of our post-op folks lied there even if they were unhappy about the surgery, as they didn't want to create more obstacles for us, and more tutelage, and less freedom to decide ourselves about our lives so I guess the data is flawed again.

And I'm also sure that if the report has consequences for the shrinks' future decisions, many of us will learn these counter-indications by heart and lie to the shrinks. And therefore, they will have to figure out on their own again what transition steps they take, without having the opportunity and freedom to talk openly to their therapist. Even if you're not sure yourself if you want the surgery, under such circumstances, it would be better to lie until you get the okay so you still have the freedom to decide on your own if you'll do it or not, than to be honest about your statistical counter-indications and getting the choice denied. So I think if this report has consequences, the biggest consequence will be that there will be more lying again, and less reliable data. It's such a silly and counter-productive cat-and-mouse game, and the shrinks still don't use their brain to figure out how stupid this is.

[Radar]

A multiple choice or drawing test seems like a really poor substitute for conversation.

Well, for my doc we do talk and I had to take the MMPI and MMPI-2 tests just once. He says it helps in the medical field since it shows "scientific proof" of GID. This way if any doctor (or family) should proclaim they want evidence and proof from tests then you have them. Sadly, many people won't accept something without evidence from tests. I do have to say it does make people argue less about it and validate being trans to them when you show them positive test results. It sucks, but it's just how alot of people are- especially in the medical field.

It's more of a CYA for the doctor and you. Plus it might show any other issues you have that need to be taken care of as well. So, I have no problem with the MMPI and MMPI-2 tests. However, drawing a person and the Rorschach tests don't seem to make sense to me. What do they have to do with diagnosing GID? The IQ test seems silly to me and doesn't relate to GID at all. So you can't be trans unless you fall within a certain IQ?

[Fencesitter]

Well, for my doc we do talk and I had to take the MMPI and MMPI-2 tests just once. He says it helps in the medical field since it shows "scientific proof" of GID. This way if any doctor (or family) should proclaim they want evidence and proof from tests then you have them. Sadly, many people won't accept something without evidence from tests. I do have to say it does make people argue less about it and validate being trans to them when you show them positive test results. It sucks, but it's just how alot of people are- especially in the medical field.

I really wonder about MMPI and MMPI-2, in which respect do they "prove" you're trans? (I never did these tests.) I mean, do they have questions like which gender you feel you are or is it more about clichés (hobbies, personality etc.)?

Otherwise, if they serve to find various kinds of psychopathology, I'm fine with that.

It's more of a CYA for the doctor and you. Plus it might show any other issues you have that need to be taken care of as well. So, I have no problem with the MMPI and MMPI-2 tests. However, drawing a person and the Rorschach tests don't seem to make sense to me. What do they have to do with diagnosing GID? The IQ test seems silly to me and doesn't relate to GID at all. So you can't be trans unless you fall within a certain IQ?

CYA, what's that?
The IQ test here serves
a) to increase the bill of the expert
b) to figure out if you're mentally handicapped to a point where it's difficult for you to make sound decisions for your life.

I think there's one point where Rorschach and drawing a person may make some sense, if you ask questions about the pictures. You may find out about serious neurological processing disorders. But then again, you don't need this hocuspocus to find that out.

[Radar]

The MMPI and MMPI-2 ask alot of questions you answer. They can be everyday questions, questions on how you perceive your life, your thoughts and feelings on things, etc. Many times the same question is asked but worded differently or "hidden"- so they can sometimes tell if you're lying. They're sort of like complex personality tests but also look for possible issues.

He showed me a graph of personality traits that were rated by the tests. In my case it was very accurate (at the time). He doesn't completely go off these results though. More than anything we talked about some of my answers and why I answered them that way. It was sort of a way to begin communication and talk about things that bothered me. I didn't do the tests until my third visit though so he already knew the run down about me.

CYA means cover your ass. The tests help look for other problems or problems that might make someone think they're trans but they're not (like a mental illness). Now, of course people with mental illnesses can be trans, but it is something to look into and make sure that the mental illness isn't making the person believe they're trans. It could also show other conditions to work on treating as well. Also if someone isn't sure if they're trans or not it helps give some insight.

Doctors want to protect themselves because if they diagnose someone with GID, then they get on hormones and have surgeries and decide they're not trans the doctor could be held liable. Not only do they not want to screw someone's life up but they don't want to be sued either. I can understand this.

[kelly_aus]

I've done the MMPI, many years ago while I was still in denial.. I knew who and what I was, just wasntt prepared to accept it. I know now that my efforts at pretending to be a guy were nowhere near as successful as I thought they were.. And guess what? The psychologist who was administering the test said my results were in line with the average male for my age group. No I do admit that I didn't answer all questions honestly, I often gave then answer I thought he wanted, not always what I wanted to say..

But this simply shows that these tests are only as valid as the subject is honest..

[Miniar]

An afterthought...

Personally, if it was something else wrong with me than this, I'd rather know it so it can be treated than to try and avoid getting it diagnosed.

[insanitylives]

Not overly conserend, I've been convincing people (psychiatry and otherwise) that I'm a normal well-adjusted person for years.
(I once convinced a psych I was perfectly a-ok when in reality i was, well, a mess.)

But people still use Rorschach

[Fencesitter]

An afterthought...

Personally, if it was something else wrong with me than this, I'd rather know it so it can be treated than to try and avoid getting it diagnosed.

I agree with you. However, it's a difference to get care denied because of esoteric test results, and getting sorted out and treated properly cause of valid test results.

[spacial]

I would think, if asked to draw, the important thing would be to include the appropriate bits for your gender.

The only other thing I can think these people might be looking for is a underlying attitude toward the opposite. Can't realyl see how they would do that, but can imagine they might be thinking along those lines.

[GinaDouglas]

I think cheating on such tests is stupid. If you really are TS, they will come to just this conclusion.

The naievity of youth.

This whole doctor/permission/letters/tests CARP is just that.  It's obsolete.  The whole system is based on the archaic assumption that patients are ignorant fools who need professionals to help them.  The truth is that most professionals who are not TG can't know what it's like to be TG, and do more harm than good.

If somehow, some court or government official made me see a shrink to be tested/evaluated to see if I really was TS, I'd probably go into the appointment with my .38 and blow my brains all over the Doc.

[kelly_aus]

The naievity of youth.

This whole doctor/permission/letters/tests CARP is just that.  It's obsolete.  The whole system is based on the archaic assumption that patients are ignorant fools who need professionals to help them.  The truth is that most professionals who are not TG can't know what it's like to be TG, and do more harm than good.

If somehow, some court or government official made me see a shrink to be tested/evaluated to see if I really was TS, I'd probably go into the appointment with my .38 and blow my brains all over the Doc.

Wow, such ignorance and stupidity.. It's attitudes like this that are the reason we all still need to go through the process we do.. Have you ever considered that there are mental health issues that can present as transsexualism? OK, maybe you've had a bad therapist in the past, but you can't assume that they are all equally as bad. If my therapist presented me with any such tests, I would can and would point out their uselessness. And I'd be finding myself a new therapist.

My therapist, who is a qualified and experienced psychiatrist, and I have already discussed whether I'm trans or not. That's not really what we discuss, we mostly talk about issues I might face in transition, some other issues that have prevented my transition and some other skeletons that are buried in my past..

And honestly, if you beleive that every self-diagnosed TS person is right, then you are the naive one..

[GinaDouglas]

Wow, such ignorance and stupidity.. It's attitudes like this that are the reason we all still need to go through the process we do.. Have you ever considered that

My therapist, who is a qualified and experienced psychiatrist, and I have already discussed whether I'm trans or not. That's not really what we discuss, we mostly talk about issues I might face in transition, some other issues that have prevented my transition and some other skeletons that are buried in my past..

And honestly, if you beleive that every self-diagnosed TS person is right, then you are the naive one..

Ignorance and stupidity huh?  Did you read any of my other posts to see how ignorant and stupid I actually am?  Or is it that anyone who feels so totally opposite from you MUST, by definition, be ignorant and stupid?

You know what I think is ignorant and stupid?  This whole demonization of the other side of an argument that is wrecking our Republic and our Society.

Every self-diagnosed TG person may not be correct about their diagnosis, but they have the RIGHT to make that determination for themselves.

Have I ever considered that ....?  Yeah I have.  I have considered it to hell and back, and in a way alot more important to me than your fate is important to your therapist.  That's her job, but it's my life - I have alot more at stake in making a right decision.  You know when I'll start believing doctors want to help people?  When they start doing it for (cost + a living wage).  I guarantee you that your therapist gives a hellofalot more about how your treatment impacts on her insurance rates and car payments, than she cares about you.

I went to a therapist that helped me recover from a relationship with an abusive spouse.  She was good at that.  I love her.  But going over some of the TG stuff was agonizing and torturous.  I don't care how compassionate a therapist might be, nobody should be forced to endure it.

You like it.  You think it helps you.  Fine.  You do it.  You have that right.  I hate it.  It can't help me.  I should not be forced to participate.

If people choose the easier path of depending on a professional, that's their right.  If people choose the harder path of becoming educated and self-reliant, that is their right too.

Do I need to prove to some putz that I don't have Narcissistic Personality Disorder,  ->-bleeped-<- or am delusional?  And pay for it?!?

When they start making people prove they are mentally stable enough to make right decisions, before they let them get married or have kids; then they can start testing ->-bleeped-<-s.  Until that time comes, it is just bigotry and discrimination.

[kelly_aus]

Ignorance and stupidity huh?  Did you read any of my other posts to see how ignorant and stupid I actually am?  Or is it that anyone who feels so totally opposite from you MUST, by definition, be ignorant and stupid?

Yes, I have read a number of your other posts..

You know what I think is ignorant and stupid?  This whole demonization of the other side of an argument that is wrecking our Republic and our Society.

I don't live in your Republic and I'm quite happy living in my Constitutional Monarchy..

Every self-diagnosed TG person may not be correct about their diagnosis, but they have the RIGHT to make that determination for themselves.

Sure they do, I never said they didn't.

Have I ever considered that ....?  Yeah I have.  I have considered it to hell and back, and in a way a lot more important to me than your fate is important to your therapist.  That's her job, but it's my life - I have a lot more at stake in making a right decision.  You know when I'll start believing doctors want to help people?  When they start doing it for (cost + a living wage).  I guarantee you that your therapist gives a hell of a lot more about how your treatment impacts on her insurance rates and car payments, than she cares about you.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't live in the US, I live in Australia, where many medical professionals only make a living wage, beyond insurance premiums, due to the way our Public Health System works.. Doctors in Private Practice often make a little more, but not always - the Private Health Insurance Companies and individuals who pay out of pocket have a way of not wanting to pay exorbitant fees. I also have a number of doctors and nurses in my family, so I know what they make and how much study and effort is required in order to practice..

I went to a therapist that helped me recover from a relationship with an abusive spouse.  She was good at that.  I love her.  But going over some of the TG stuff was agonising and torturous.  I don't care how compassionate a therapist might be, nobody should be forced to endure it.

You like it.  You think it helps you.  Fine.  You do it.  You have that right.  I hate it.  It can't help me.  I should not be forced to participate.

Fine, find a doctor who will work with Informed Consent - you do have that option in many places..

If people choose the easier path of depending on a professional, that's their right.  If people choose the harder path of becoming educated and self-reliant, that is their right too.

There's no easy path.. Am I seeing a psychiatrist? Yes, I am. But I'm also educating myself and learning to be self-reliant.

Do I need to prove to some putz that I don't have Narcissistic Personality Disorder,  ->-bleeped-<- or am delusional?  And pay for it?!?

Yes, actually I think we should need to demonstrate that we don't have any other mental health issues that may present in a similar manner to transsexuality. Why? It simply strengthens the argument that it is a legitimate condition and will enavle it, in time, to be no longer classed as 'mental illness'.

When they start making people prove they are mentally stable enough to make right decisions, before they let them get married or have kids; then they can start testing ->-bleeped-<-s.  Until that time comes, it is just bigotry and discrimination.

While I'm not sure that testing should be required for marriage, I do think that a certain amount of testing should be required before many people can have children.. Marriage is a reversible process.. Having children (or changing your gender) is not reversible, hence why I believe some checking is in order..

And in reply to part of your PM, Gina, despite the Government subsidies, I do still pay for Health Care.. Admittedly not as much as it costs in the US, but I do still pay.. 2.5% of my Taxable Income, and anywhere from $5 to $5000 for diagnostic tests and treatments..

Also, I do understand your point of view, I don't think it's right at this point in time and I'm just displaying an alternate point of view - you are just as guilty as I appear of not accepting an alternate view point..

[GinaDouglas]

you are just as guilty as I appear of not accepting an alternate view point..

I don't think you recognize the paradox here.

People should have the freedom to outlaw freedom if they want?

If you are saying people should have the right to have their TG experience controlled by the medical profession that's a point of view.  But you are saying, if I understand you correctly, that somebody can dictate and mandate that said path to changing genders is the only path.  That's not really a point of a view.  That's a political stand.

[Octavianus]

Thank you very much for your effort, fencesitter. Because of my profession I also had to endure countless of such tests and really: I cant see how a person is able to know the depts of ones personality when they have only seen him or her for a few hours.

I will add some info when I recollect some details.

[kelly_aus]

I don't think you recognize the paradox here.

People should have the freedom to outlaw freedom if they want?

If you are saying people should have the right to have their TG experience controlled by the medical profession that's a point of view.  But you are saying, if I understand you correctly, that somebody can dictate and mandate that said path to changing genders is the only path.  That's not really a point of a view.  That's a political stand.

Actually, the point I'm trying to make is that there is no 'one size fits all' approach.. But you seem to be reading things in to my comments that I'm not saying.. It seems that there is a vast difference between the quality of medical care here in Australia and the quality of care in the US..

[Fencesitter]

Thank you very much for your effort, fencesitter. Because of my profession I also had to endure countless of such tests and really: I cant see how a person is able to know the depts of ones personality when they have only seen him or her for a few hours.

I will add some info when I recollect some details.

Looking forward to your story. Go figure, I knew a guy who passed all the psychological tests for pilots. And after one year of fly training in Nevada and his exams and when he started to fly for real, it came out he couldn't do the job as he lacked the multitasking skills necessary for it. This had not been detected by the tests, and he had not known before that he could have a problem cause of this or that he was THAT bad at multitasking.

@GinaDouglas
@kelly_aus
I think you're both kind of talking about different subjects here, or starting from different presumptions.
I understand both points of view, it's just one of you is talking about quality care by good therapists who only sort out people who are not TS and otherwise help or counsel you.

And the other one is talking about unnecessary paternalistic gatekeeping when it comes to people who are TS and need care but get it denied or delayed as shrinks decide whether they're stable etc. enough to be allowed surgery (instead of just warning them but letting them decide for themselves in the end).