Gay TransMen Survey!!! (10-answer what you can) : )?

[MaxAttack]

TASK: Writing a paper on non-operative gay transmen. I'm trying to prove the validity of them as "true" gay men, even with the absence of elective surgery.

(*additional comments would be appreciated, please attach your email if interested in helping me)
(** if too long for you, at least try and answer the last question for me.)

1. Have you considered surgery (cosmetic or otherwise)?
a) if yes, why?
b) if no, why? What deters you from making this decision?
c) if you've completed or are in the process, what lead you to make this decision and how do you feel about your choice as of this moment?

2. How has the homosexual biological male community treated you? Or even the rest of society, as well?
a) if well, why?
b) if poorly, why do you think this is?
c) when discussing yourself and other gay transmen with others, what are the opinions you've received?

3. What are the struggles involved with being a gay transman?

4. What are the positives of embracing yourself as a transman?

5. Some people say that gay transmen are females with a sexual fetishism of "turning" gay men straight, or are the derogatory "->-bleeped-<--hag"...what do you have to say in response?


6. Some people also ask that if a biological female choses to transition to male and continue to date other males, would the operation/transition even be necessary, since they will continue to date males---what is the point? Comments?

b) With the transition to transmale, intercourse with gay men would be homosexual, since the trans person is male on the inside, even though they were born female externally. This in mind, how would you explain that this form of intercourse would be homosexual, even though you were born female. (This distinction is hard to explain in conversation, that you can make love to someone a certain way (with homosexual or heterosexual inclinations in mind during the act), even with the absence of appropriate genitalia (pre-op))

7. How much do you know about gay transmen (a.k.a. "girl->-bleeped-<-s")?

8. Have you heard them addressed in the media?

9. And comments that you feel should be included in the essay, or just for anyone reading this survey on Y!A should know about gay transmen?

10. In your opinion, how could one put the idea in the social collectives mind that the gender binary (sexual orientation, gender, and biological sex) are different domains?
b) Discuss how you think gender could have a greater precedence over biological sex---thus making it more important a factor in expressing oneself as male or female, and being accepted for it, regardless of biological sex?

Thanks to anyone you took this seriously and helped me out!

[Arch]

Define non-op, please. I do not consider myself non-op; I've had top surgery. But not bottom surgery or hysto.

6b is a problem; what kind of intercourse?

[SnailPace]

I'm pre-everything (T and surgery) but I'll answer what I can.

1a: I have definitely contemplated surgery, both top and bottom.  I'm waiting to be on T for a while, appropriate funds etc.  I will definitely be getting top surgery in the future, bottom is up in the air.

2. I haven't had much experience with "the homosexual male community", but I went to Wild Youth (a gay teen program) in high school and had no problems.  Nobody has ever questioned my validity, but that may be for lack of exposure.

3. I've had to face a lot of struggles with my family in the coming out process.  Mostly, it's just one more thing to explain to people.

4. Everything is positive about embracing myself as a man.  Life is just a lot happier.  Now that I've identified the root, I'm not constantly looking for things to be upset about.  I don't need to override it.

5. I have never turned anyone straight.  In fact, my partner was previously identified as "heteroflexible".  Now he goes by "undefined".

6. I don't think many people transition for the sex.  It's really for your own peace of mind.

7. It's hard to know much about such a variant group of people, but I do know that most would not appreciate being called "girl->-bleeped-<-s".  Firstly, they aren't girls, and secondly, "->-bleeped-<-" is generally interpreted as offensive.

8. No, I haven't heard anything about them in the media.

10. I think a way to get people to understand the difference between sex and gender is to put them in the shoes.  For instance, ask your average cisgendered girl, "If you woke up tomorrow in a male body, would you still consider yourself a girl? Or would you all of a sudden be a man in every sense of the word?"

[kyril]

1. Have you considered surgery (cosmetic or otherwise)? Yes.
a) if yes, why?
I need to not have breasts. I need to feel attractive (or at least decent) with my shirt off. And I need to stop leaking (not just the blood) from between my legs. If there were a way of having all that without surgery, I'd take it, but there's not.

2. How has the homosexual biological male community treated you? Or even the rest of society, as well?
My gay cis male friends have been amazing to me - they've been adopting me as one of their own since long before I ever publicly came out, and they've been sweet and accepting since I came out as well. I haven't had any negative reactions from any gay men I've known personally or from anyone I've met in person, although I've had some mildly negative reactions from strangers on online dating sites, and of course there are gay guys who say transphobic things anonymously online.
a) if well, why?
I assume because they're decent, accepting people?
b) if poorly, why do you think this is?
c) when discussing yourself and other gay transmen with others, what are the opinions you've received?
When discussing myself, I've been mostly been told that I'm going to make a really cute guy. I'm usually informed at least once by each guy I talk to that I'm never going to have a real dick...when I assure them that I know this and that I'm a bottom, they seem to be ok with it.

I don't tend to discuss others, or gay trans men in general, because I often find my take on things is...unconventional...even for a gay trans guy, so I wouldn't presume to speak for anyone but myself.

3. What are the struggles involved with being a gay transman?
Well, I don't have a dick, and gay guys kind of like those. Having to come out to guys I'm interested in is a bit of a chore. And the few months I went through when I was first starting to socially transition, where lesbians were all over me but I was invisible to gay and straight guys...not so fun.

4. What are the positives of embracing yourself as a transman?
Being on the right hormones makes me not want to kill myself. My male friends now seem to know how to treat/relate to me; I don't confuse them quite so much. I can accept my (limited) effeminate side more easily now.

5. Some people say that gay transmen are females with a sexual fetishism of "turning" gay men straight, or are the derogatory "->-bleeped-<--hag"...what do you have to say in response?
No interest in turning gay guys straight...that would be seriously counterproductive. To be honest, like a lot of gay guys, I actually kind of fetishize/romanticize straight guys a little bit, and have occasional not-so-serious fantasies about "turning a straight man gay." But that has nothing to do with my decision to transition, and in fact may have been a factor in delaying it.

I'm definitely not a "->-bleeped-<- hag," never have been, my friends would laugh at the thought.

6. Some people also ask that if a biological female choses to transition to male and continue to date other males, would the operation/transition even be necessary, since they will continue to date males---what is the point? Comments?
These people clearly have the outdated view of transition as a sort of barbaric "cure" for homosexuality and trans men as some sort of extreme form of butch lesbians. That's not how it works. Trans guys who like women aren't transitioning to become straight, and I'm not transitioning to become gay. They are straight, and I am gay, and we're all men; transition merely changes our bodies to correspond with our existing identities.

b) With the transition to transmale, intercourse with gay men would be homosexual, since the trans person is male on the inside, even though they were born female externally. This in mind, how would you explain that this form of intercourse would be homosexual, even though you were born female. (This distinction is hard to explain in conversation, that you can make love to someone a certain way (with homosexual or heterosexual inclinations in mind during the act), even with the absence of appropriate genitalia (pre-op))
Well, I'm a bottom in the "traditional" gay male sense, so my frontal equipment isn't exactly critical to the experience. When I suck my partner's dick, I'm a man sucking his dick; when he ->-bleeped-<-s me, it works exactly the same as if he were ->-bleeped-<-ing any other man. It's two men having sex, so it is totally gay. I guess it's not technically "homosexual," but then I don't like "homosexual" as an identifier anyway, never met a gay guy who did - it's typically used only by people who want to stigmatize and medicalize us.

7. How much do you know about gay transmen (a.k.a. "girl->-bleeped-<-s")?
I strongly dislike "girl->-bleeped-<-' as an identifier and have never heard it applied to gay trans men. My understanding is that self-identified "girl->-bleeped-<-s" are women-identified women who identify sexually (and only sexually) with gay men. I object to the term because these women have absolutely no right to use or reclaim the word "->-bleeped-<-." Hell, I'm not even sure I do, since I didn't grow up gay and visibly male.

As far as gay trans men: I know a fair amount about myself. I only know as much about others as I've seen them share online.

8. Have you heard them addressed in the media?
No.

9. And comments that you feel should be included in the essay, or just for anyone reading this survey on Y!A should know about gay transmen?
There's a lot of diversity in the gay trans male community. When you hear one of us talk, assume he's speaking strictly for himself, even if he does speak in generalities. Not all of us want to break down the gender binary, not all of us are genderqueer, not all of us are hypermasculine, not all of us are effeminate, not all of us like anime/bishonen, not all of us are (or aspire to be) androgynous. Not all of us like vaginal sex, not all of us strictly refuse it, not all of us are bottoms, not all of us are tops, not all of us even want dicks, not all of us are comfortable with keeping our "factory equipment.

We disagree (sometimes strenuously) on issues like the acceptability of trans men in women's spaces, colleges, sports teams, and the like. Some of us consider ourselves transsexual, others transgender, others genderqueer. Some of us call ourselves men, others transmen or trans men (and there is a difference). Some of us have severe body dysphoria, others little or non; some of us have severe social dysphoria, others little or none. Our social dysphoria comes in many forms - for some it's more focused on the discomfort of cross-gendered roles and performance, where for others of us it's focused on our cross-gendered identity.

If you've met one trans guy, you've met one trans guy.

10. In your opinion, how could one put the idea in the social collectives mind that the gender binary (sexual orientation, gender, and biological sex) are different domains?
No idea.
b) Discuss how you think gender could have a greater precedence over biological sex---thus making it more important a factor in expressing oneself as male or female, and being accepted for it, regardless of biological sex?
Not sure I understand the question.

[Alessandro]

Can you please clarify whether you want trans men who aren't non-op to answer?

Great answers Kyril.  Can you tell me what the difference between transmen and trans men is?

[kyril]

Can you please clarify whether you want trans men who aren't non-op to answer?

Great answers Kyril.  Can you tell me what the difference between transmen and trans men is?

Thanks

In general, one-word "transman" as a personal identity, as used by Matt Kailey and others who feel like he does, is used to signify a sort of third gender status, someone whose experiences and socialization as a woman are very much a part of them and who has trouble identifying as the same gender as biological men. "Trans man" as an identity usually signifies more enthusiasm for being a man, but a special/unique sort of man, one whose trans experiences are an important part of his identity. (Man" as an identity, for trans men, usually means that we view ourselves as basically the same as cis men, or that we don't believe our differences rise to the scale necessary to alter our core gender identity).

[meh]

1. Yes. I need to get rid of the breasts that shouldn't be there. I'm waiting for better results for bottom surgery however.

2. I've been treated well. I think if they find you attractive, they tend to treat you better. One opinion I've received of trans guys is that "it's gross" by a gay cis male. Other cis gay males were intrigued and curious.

3. Being taken seriously. Having to explain to people why it isn't easier to "stay female" if I like guys in the first place. Oh and not having a dick obviously.

4. I am happier and more open to other people/new ideas and less judgmental of others.

5. I think it's a bunch of crap and they need to be educated. Transition isn't about sex or trying to "deceive" gay men or turn them straight. If people are transitioning just to attract potential partners then they're doing it for the wrong reason.

6. The point is being comfortable in my own skin, ridding myself of dysphoria, and uniting how I feel on the inside to how I look on the outside. Even if I was able to date the hottest guys in the world I would still be unhappy, depressed, and dysphoric if I weren't able to transition.

b) I identify as male, therefore if I have sex with a man it is gay sex no matter what the genitalia looks like. That's how I explain it.

7. I've never heard gay trans guys called "girl->-bleeped-<-s". I don't want any identifier put on me that is in anyway female. I am a male, I am not a girl anything. I do call myself a trans ->-bleeped-<- or ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<- sometimes.

8. Only the ones who get pregnant.

9. I have no other comments.

10. One has to only look as far as intersex people. The gender binary is a complex and mulitfaceted subject. I think people will start to understand it more as time passes and as science has more answers. Science is only in it's infancy regarding brain studies in this area.

b) I would make gender studies a required course in school along with a diversity class. Ignorance and perhaps religious reasons make this a hard subject to broach.

[Arch]

10 is a problem for me as well...I don't know what you mean by "gender binary"--the stuff in parens has me confused.

You should also indicate what definition of "gender" you are using.

I'm not entirely happy with "transman," either, so I hope you can clarify what you mean by it. I know that I am considered trans, and I use "trans" as shorthand to refer to someone with my history. But "trans" is most definitely not a part of my identity. For me, it refers to a state of my body and some aspects of my history, not of my mind or true self. I also don't use the term "transman" to refer to myself; I am a trans man, a man who is trans.

But that's just me.

[Sean]

I don't understand why you are writing a paper to "prove the validity of gay transmen," and I think  you should carefully reconsider your phrasing and framing of this issue.

Gay transmen, as you call phrase it, exist. You can't *prove our validity* and posting a survey to a forum that specifically caters to FTMs (some of whom are gay) isn't exactly likely to prove anything to anyone. The tone and nature of your questions is off-putting, to say the least.

"Some people are ignorant. How do YOU respond?" Excuse me? That's what a bunch of your questions are asking. " Beyond that, many of your questions and phrases suggest that you aren't entirely clear on the different between biological sex, sexual orientation, gender, or gender expression (four different things), so they have presuppositions that are false. Even the use of "non-op" is confusing.

Now, I'll be honest. I think you have good intentions here.  But what are you really trying to accomplish? Have you searched any of these threads for the opinions of gay FTMs, because this is a subject that gets discussed pretty often.

It sounds like you are trying to educate people who either don't know or don't believe that there are FTMs who are gay and who may either be pre-op or non-op. If that's the case, isn't the overall question you are asking:  What would you tell someone who doesn't know anything about gay FTMs or what would you tell someone who doesn't think that gay FTM exist?

[Arch]

Gay transmen, as you call phrase it, exist. You can't *prove our validity* and posting a survey to a forum that specifically caters to FTMs (some of whom are gay) isn't exactly likely to prove anything to anyone.

You say that gay transmen exist. Other people argue that the category is not even valid. That's the basis for an argument.

A person can persuasively argue for the validity of something/someone. An opinion piece cannot prove much of anything. If it could, it wouldn't be an argument; it would come under the umbrella of science.

[Sean]

You say that gay transmen exist. Other people argue that the category is not even valid. That's the basis for an argument.

A person can persuasively argue for the validity of something/someone. An opinion piece cannot prove much of anything. If it could, it wouldn't be an argument; it would come under the umbrella of science.

Yes, a person can persuasively argue for or against the existence of something, but that doesn't make a poorly-worded online survey in a biased forum a useful TOOL for making this argument.

You mention an "opinion piece" which I think is a revealing statement here. Facts are facts. Opinions are opinions. Value judgments are value judgments. You can have whatever opinion you want based on your value judgment, and you can have whatever opinion you want if you have a reasonable basis for disagreement on facts. But you can't dispute facts simply by virtue of opinion.

I can argue that dinosaurs exist, because I have the weight of scientific evidence on my side. Someone else can argue that dinosaurs do not exist, because they believe that a fundamentalist/literal reading of the Bible is the Truth. They are making a value judgment about what sort of FACTS should govern. I have a different value judgment about what facts govern. Accordingly, we have a difference in opinion about whether dinosaurs exist.

Now, let's say I go survey a bunch of paleontologists at one of their conferences or on one of their list serves with a 10 point survey that bungles the names of a bunch of dinosaurs & asks them questions such as, "Some people say the earth was created in 6000 years old and dinosaurs never existed. What do YOU respond to that? How do you feel as a paleontologist when people think you are a fraud & liar?" and then I explain that I'm asking because I want to write a paper to prove the validity of dinosaurs.

I have a feeling that they might not want to take the time answering my long "survey" because there are better resources they can point me to that do just that: explain the FACTS about whether dinosaurs exist (based on value judgments regarding which type of evidence is meaningful and which isn't), offer guidance on what terminology is typically used in the scientific community, and show me how I can best educate MYSELF before trying to educate others.

I know this is a tortured analogy by this point. But there is no 'basis' for an *opinion* argument on whether "gay transment" (again: phrasing is not mine) that is rooted in actual, scientific evidence. Anyone choosing to argue this point right now either is not informed or has a value judgment that precludes use of scientific evidence in favor of something else.

If this is a school assignment, and the real point is for the Original Poster to learn something about gay FTMs, then I think refining the thesis for his paper might be a helpful starting point. And I think it might actually produce MORE educationally relevant answers than if everyone here tries to answer this long-winded, poorly-worded, rooted in faulty assumptions "survey" about the gay FTM experience.

[Arch]

Sean, I don't think you and I are in much, if any, disagreement, when it comes right down to it. And I don't really have time to debate right now. I'm just trying to nudge this survey/project toward a more useful structure and content.

I think that this project is based on an existing opinion/view that, until quite recently, was even trumpeted forth in the medical literature--i.e., that there is no such thing as a gay trans man. One reason I didn't try to transition a long time ago (apart from my reservations about my relationship) is that the available professional literature told me that I basically didn't exist. If I identified as gay, I could not be trans.

In trans and non-trans aspects, there is often a fundamental disconnect between how we define ourselves and how other people define us. I see this project as an argument for the validity of self-definition and the problems that people encounter when other people don't accept our definitions about ourselves.

[Sean]

Agreed, Arch.

I also was slow to come to terms with my identity because some checklists seemed to suggest that I didn't exist. Then again, people who only see the T-Rex at the museum don't expect Velociraptors.

I think we also agree in terms of nudging the original poster toward a more useful and educational version of the project intended.

OP, if you're still reading: can you explain exactly what your project/paper is for and maybe we can help steer you in the right direction?

[M.Grimm]

I looked over this survey, and I am not comfortable responding to it as it is currently written. Right now, it looks like several veiled insults and questions akin to "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?", rather than a survey constructed to gather legitimate information.

I know that data collection is a tedious process, and I've had to create surveys for it; anyone who's done this kind of statistical hoo-ha knows that the questions need to be carefully written to pull that data. And that questionnaires can be studded with questions in a way to prove a point the questioner already has in mind, rather than being a neutral source of raw data.

Even if this is meant as an informal survey, those questions need some significant revision.

[JohnR]

"Some people say..."  If you were indeed writing a paper, you would be aware that it is necessary to include citations.

[Morgan]

1. Have you considered surgery (cosmetic or otherwise)?
Yes. For chest surgery it's because I want to look more male, and breasts are NOT male. Bottom surgery is just because my state requires it to change your gender marker. I could live with the genitalia that I have now, because it works. FTM bottom surgery kinda sucks...

2. How has the homosexual biological male community treated you? Or even the rest of society, as well?
Well I don't actually know a lot of gay guys. So I can't answer

3. What are the struggles involved with being a gay transman?
Well, I'm not gay, but I would assume the main struggle would be finding a bisexual guy who doesn't mind that you're not fully biologically male. I'm sure it would be a ton harder to find a gay guy that's okay with the fact that either you won't have surgery, or the surgery you'll get isn't quite penis-like. And then on top of just them liking your genitalia, they have to like YOU, too, and you have to like them in return. So, yeah that could pose a problem.

4. What are the positives of embracing yourself as a transman?
I feel free. I'm the happiest I've ever been in my life, and that is truly saying something. I grew up miserable. I was taken out of school for anxiety and depression, and I struggled with suicide before I knew what that word meant. Transition has helped me in baby steps. Realizing I am male was one step happier. Having my girlfriend treat me like a man was another step to happiness. Presenting male was another step. And now, living as male, is another step. My next step is T, and I think it's safe to assume that that will be another part of transition making my life easier and happier.

5. Some people say that gay transmen are females with a sexual fetishism of "turning" gay men straight, or are the derogatory "->-bleeped-<--hag"...what do you have to say in response?
This thought never crossed my mind. I assume that if your transition is based on this fetish, you won't last long. Eventually they'll realize that this just isn't as awesome as they thought. Being trans is hard. We face turmoil with our friends and family, discrimination at work and school, and the fear of the wrong person finding out and hurting us. So even if people like these fetishists exist, I don't think they would stay trans for long. So yeah, I think it's safe to say that all long term trans men are not '->-bleeped-<--hags'


6. Some people also ask that if a biological female choses to transition to male and continue to date other males, would the operation/transition even be necessary, since they will continue to date males---what is the point? Comments?
The operation and transition is not about sex. I didn't transition so I could have sex with my partner with testosterone in my blood and a penis down there. I did it to feel whole. I believe that answers your question.

b) With the transition to transmale, intercourse with gay men would be homosexual, since the trans person is male on the inside, even though they were born female externally. This in mind, how would you explain that this form of intercourse would be homosexual, even though you were born female. (This distinction is hard to explain in conversation, that you can make love to someone a certain way (with homosexual or heterosexual inclinations in mind during the act), even with the absence of appropriate genitalia (pre-op))
Well, it's homosexual because it's two men. That's what gay sex is defined as, right? We as transsexuals are pushing gender boundaries, saying that genitalia and physical sex has nothing to do with gender, so it wouldn't matter if you still had a vagina but you're gay, it's still GAY because we're trans!

7. How much do you know about gay transmen (a.k.a. "girl->-bleeped-<-s")?
They're trans. They're gay. What else is there?

8. Have you heard them addressed in the media?
No, sadly we don't exist apparently. I have seen some media coverage of trans people, but I've never seen it on TV or in the newspaper.

9. And comments that you feel should be included in the essay, or just for anyone reading this survey on Y!A should know about gay transmen?
Gay transmen are just like regular gay people. Except for their down there parts.

10. In your opinion, how could one put the idea in the social collectives mind that the gender binary (sexual orientation, gender, and biological sex) are different domains?
b) Discuss how you think gender could have a greater precedence over biological sex---thus making it more important a factor in expressing oneself as male or female, and being accepted for it, regardless of biological sex?
Well sexual orientation is about what you're attracted to. Heterosexuals like those of the opposite sex. Homosexuals like those of the same sex. What that sex is depends on what your sex is, male or female.
Being transsexual is what you feel you are inside. Whether that's FTM, MTF, androgyn, or anything in between. You can be FTM and gay. You can be FTM and straight. You can be MTF and lesbian. You can be MTF and straight.
Biological sex is your genitals. Sometimes, peoples genitals and biological sex doesn't match what they feel in their heart and mind. I believe everyone is transsexual in one way or another. Everyone is a different shade of male or female. You've got girly guys, and butchy, boyish girls. We're just further on the spectrum.

[sneakersjay]

I looked over this survey, and I am not comfortable responding to it as it is currently written. Right now, it looks like several veiled insults and questions akin to "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?", rather than a survey constructed to gather legitimate information.

I know that data collection is a tedious process, and I've had to create surveys for it; anyone who's done this kind of statistical hoo-ha knows that the questions need to be carefully written to pull that data. And that questionnaires can be studded with questions in a way to prove a point the questioner already has in mind, rather than being a neutral source of raw data.

Even if this is meant as an informal survey, those questions need some significant revision.

This.

And it's coming from a member who joined just to post this survey.


Jay

[Morgan]

I agree that the questions need to be revised. I answered anyways, but it could be done better.

[Alessandro]

Bottom surgery is just because my state requires it to change your gender marker. I could live with the genitalia that I have now, because it works. FTM bottom surgery kinda sucks...

Wow that is so backwards and wrong.  Nobody should be forced into major surgery with usually poor results just so they can live in the right gender.  Just the idea of that kind of sickens me.  Can't you move to a different state?  I'd seriously rather emigrate than have most of the bottom surgery options available...

[Morgan]

It doesn't matter if I move, my birth certificate will always be a Virginia certificate, and therefor, Virginia laws will apply to it, even if I change my ID in another state. I have no choice. I'm going to talk to my doctor to see if there are ways to skirt around this, like a hysterectomy or a clitoral release (Metoidioplasty without the testicular implants or sealing up the rest of the genitals) But if I HAVE to get full SRS, I.. Don't know what I'm going to do. Bang down Obama's door and demand a revamp similar to the one concerning passports? Bleh

I guess it would be possible for me to move to a state that doesn't require a birth certificate change/surgery to change the drivers license, then move back to Virginia, but... I dunno if I could make it still say M when I get a VA license again, and it's kind of a roundabout way to do it. I'd rather hide my ID than go through that trouble...