When is HRT 'done' changing us?

[Nero]

Hey all,

After my recent non-passing episode, I've begun to panic. I'm about 19 months into T. Is this it? Am I done changing? I didn't pass at all for probably the first year or so in (even with top surgery within a month of starting T). I don't know if that's relevant but I seem to be on a slower course than most (not with regard to changes but passing). Now I'm passing but not consistently. I'm on the standard dose which has been enough for menses cessation, the ability probably to grow a full beard, body hair, etc. So all the changes are there, but I still look extremely young and androgynous looking.

I'm wondering if I have cause to worry that it will always be like this. I'm happy with the changes as they are, except that I don't want to go through life with every second or third person believing I'm female.
Does T keep masculinizing trans guys year after year (I know supposedly it keeps going for cisguys but they already pass, so I don't know if that's relevant)?

Thanks all. Sorry to sound so down and gloomy. Just had a bad day yesterday. I wish incidents like this didn't get to me and cause me to lose confidence. Everything just seems to fall apart when someone refers to me as female.

[sneakersjay]

Hard to say what the issue is without seeing you, but I certainly understand not wanting to post pics of yourself on the internet.

Could be anything from mannerisms to body shape to mode of dress to speech patterns, etc.

Jay

[Nero]

Hard to say what the issue is without seeing you, but I certainly understand not wanting to post pics of yourself on the internet.

Could be anything from mannerisms to body shape to mode of dress to speech patterns, etc.

Jay

Well, physically I think it's probably my face. My body shape is normal and I wear simple, understated men's clothes. I do think voice and speech is part of it, possibly some mannerisms too. I don't really know what it would take physically, since all the expected changes have happened. I guess I'm looking for the face to harden or something?

Edit: It has to be more than speech though because it happens with service people before they've heard me speak or really had time to observe much more than immediate physical appearance.

[YellowDaisy]

Hey all,

After my recent non-passing episode, I've begun to panic. I'm about 19 months into T. Is this it? Am I done changing? I didn't pass at all for probably the first year or so in (even with top surgery within a month of starting T). I don't know if that's relevant but I seem to be on a slower course than most (not with regard to changes but passing). Now I'm passing but not consistently. I'm on the standard dose which has been enough for menses cessation, the ability probably to grow a full beard, body hair, etc. So all the changes are there, but I still look extremely young and androgynous looking.

I'm wondering if I have cause to worry that it will always be like this. I'm happy with the changes as they are, except that I don't want to go through life with every second or third person believing I'm female.
Does T keep masculinizing trans guys year after year (I know supposedly it keeps going for cisguys but they already pass, so I don't know if that's relevant)?

Thanks all. Sorry to sound so down and gloomy. Just had a bad day yesterday. I wish incidents like this didn't get to me and cause me to lose confidence. Everything just seems to fall apart when someone refers to me as female.

just as you went through your first puberty, and how many cisgendered males/females in the teen years have the same curiousity, there's no set in stone answer. everyone grows and develops at their own pace. you should just keep going and wait to see what other changes come your way.

[Kaelleria]

From what I've heard from some of my FTM friends, it took about 2-3  years before they got to the point where they were passing 100% of the time. What does your doctor say about you T levels?

[Arch]

I hear you. I wish I could help.

Although I'm not sure of their dosage, I've heard guys say that it took them years to see the full effects. Body fat redistribution, full voice stabilization, stuff like that. Many small, continuing changes beyond that first year or two. And, of course, facial hair. I don't know how much facial hair you have, but that would obviously make a difference as well. Didn't you say at one point that you were having trouble even with lots of facial hair?

You're still very young, so that brings in the androgyny card. And I suppose some body language might figure in...when people clock you without hearing your voice, how long have they been looking at you? What are you doing? How are you holding your body? I know a guy who said he took forever to be consistently read as a guy; my theory is that, as an active member of the lesbian community, he had absorbed lots of feminine mannerisms and vocal habits. He still has a lot of them, but he tends to be read as gay now. The full beard and the hair loss help.

The other thing that I wonder is, just as Kaelleria, says, hormone levels. If any of your T is converting to E, then that could be slowing things down. If you haven't already, you might want to get your E levels checked.

[Nero]

From what I've heard from some of my FTM friends, it took about 2-3  years before they got to the point where they were passing 100% of the time. What does your doctor say about you T levels?

Thanks. that gives me more hope.  My doctor isn't very forthcoming, sadly.

[Nero]

I hear you. I wish I could help.

Although I'm not sure of their dosage, I've heard guys say that it took them years to see the full effects. Body fat redistribution, full voice stabilization, stuff like that. Many small, continuing changes beyond that first year or two. And, of course, facial hair. I don't know how much facial hair you have, but that would obviously make a difference as well. Didn't you say at one point that you were having trouble even with lots of facial hair?

You're still very young, so that brings in the androgyny card. And I suppose some body language might figure in...when people clock you without hearing your voice, how long have they been looking at you? What are you doing? How are you holding your body? I know a guy who said he took forever to be consistently read as a guy; my theory is that, as an active member of the lesbian community, he had absorbed lots of feminine mannerisms and vocal habits. He still has a lot of them, but he tends to be read as gay now. The full beard and the hair loss help.

The other thing that I wonder is, just as Kaelleria, says, hormone levels. If any of your T is converting to E, then that could be slowing things down. If you haven't already, you might want to get your E levels checked.

Yeah, I think age (or rather the age I look like) could have something to do with it. The lady and I were discussing my work history and it may have become apparent that I am older than I look. If you know my birthdate and you're unsure of my sex, it probably seems more plausible that I'm female. Men my age usually look 'full-grown'.

I think voice and possibly speech patterns play a part. I know I have to drop all use of the false voice I had developed, but it's so ingrained and just comes out mid-sentence sometimes.

[Kaelleria]

>>
One of my FTM friends is 35... He looks like he's 25. You're probably going to be cursed to look young for a very long time... at least until it turns into a blessing.

[Sean]

My research indicates that 2 years minimum is normal for significant masculanization and that there is subtle, yet significant progress during years to 2-5 on T. So I guess the good news is that your experience is within the range of 'expected' results, and that it *should* improve for you.

Again: check your levels with your doctor to make sure you're on the right dose (too little is no good, too much could be hurting you as well). Some people just have more sensitive androgen receptors, though, so it may not be a T level thing at all. Your body may just be doing the best it can at a slower pace than average.

If you have the opportunity, you might want to see if a theater or acting class/coach or body language expert can evaluate you (or at least video of you in ordinary life experiences) has any suggestions. And as I wrote elsewhere in response to your passing frustration, it might not even be YOU, it might be who you're often WITH.

[YellowDaisy]

I hear you. I wish I could help.

Although I'm not sure of their dosage, I've heard guys say that it took them years to see the full effects. Body fat redistribution, full voice stabilization, stuff like that. Many small, continuing changes beyond that first year or two. And, of course, facial hair. I don't know how much facial hair you have, but that would obviously make a difference as well. Didn't you say at one point that you were having trouble even with lots of facial hair?

You're still very young, so that brings in the androgyny card. And I suppose some body language might figure in...when people clock you without hearing your voice, how long have they been looking at you? What are you doing? How are you holding your body? I know a guy who said he took forever to be consistently read as a guy; my theory is that, as an active member of the lesbian community, he had absorbed lots of feminine mannerisms and vocal habits. He still has a lot of them, but he tends to be read as gay now. The full beard and the hair loss help.

The other thing that I wonder is, just as Kaelleria, says, hormone levels. If any of your T is converting to E, then that could be slowing things down. If you haven't already, you might want to get your E levels checked.

yeah, i noticed that. ftm seem to have more trouble letting go of feminine mannerisms. just by looking at some pictures of ftm on here, i've seen the female body language. mtf seem to have more trouble passing physically.

[westminstersub]

Well... I cannot comment on the changes, but I wanted to show my support!

Part of it is always inside of you. You have to believe, and do not feel discouraged by people who don't read you right at the beginning. You will get better at it, and you will have to be patient.

Sometimes, when I am in the street and see a man with long hair and neutral clothes, I don't know if they are a man or a woman, until I get a better look at them, closer.

Your posture can give you away, how you tilt your head, the positions of your shoulders, how you cross your legs, the way you look at the people... All those things are stereotypes, and can give the wrong reading.

Be strong, and do not let those incidents get in between your inner and outer you!

Best!!

[Nero]

Well... I cannot comment on the changes, but I wanted to show my support!

Thanks! 

Part of it is always inside of you. You have to believe, and do not feel discouraged by people who don't read you right at the beginning. You will get better at it, and you will have to be patient.

People keep saying that. I'm wondering if it's possible it's more than the outside. I feel kind of guilty sometimes. It's hard to stop focusing on the past. I guess I don't fully 'own' my new appearance yet or something. I think I need to get into a mental space where I'm just a guy and not the guy who lived another life as a woman. It's hard to explain. I know technically I will always be someone who lived as a woman, but I'm letting it be too much at the forefront of my thoughts. I need to just let go and focus on who I am now, not then. I wonder if that has anything to do with it. The fact it's always on my mind.

There's just a lot of baggage from that time and really not any baggage from this new period, so there's a discrepancy there. It's hard to get past that time in my life because well, it was all my life up until this point.

[Arch]

I know technically I will always be someone who lived as a woman, but I'm letting it be too much at the forefront of my thoughts. I need to just let go and focus on who I am now, not then. I wonder if that has anything to do with it. The fact it's always on my mind.

There's just a lot of baggage from that time and really not any baggage from this new period, so there's a discrepancy there. It's hard to get past that time in my life because well, it was all my life up until this point.

Even now, I have gender on my mind more often than I don't. Often it's at the back of my mind, but it's there. I have found in recent months that when I let go of gender for a little while, I feel so comfortable with myself, if only for a few minutes or an hour. It's liberating. I've never really felt that way as an adult, un-self-conscious. But now I get there occasionally.

You've been through so much in the last few years alone, and you've made so much progress. You've inspired others, including me.

Transition, acclimation--it's an organic process. It happens on its own. I suppose we can help it along to some extent, but maybe not as much as we would like.  In a lot of ways, this is the beginning of your life, but in other ways, you have all of this history. It's hard to undo decades in a couple of years. Maybe it will take a little longer than you want, but you will get there.

Give it time, my friend. Give it time.

[Nero]

Even now, I have gender on my mind more often than I don't. Often it's at the back of my mind, but it's there. I have found in recent months that when I let go of gender for a little while, I feel so comfortable with myself, if only for a few minutes or an hour. It's liberating. I've never really felt that way as an adult, un-self-conscious. But now I get there occasionally.

You've been through so much in the last few years alone, and you've made so much progress. You've inspired others, including me.

Transition, acclimation--it's an organic process. It happens on its own. I suppose we can help it along to some extent, but maybe not as much as we would like.  In a lot of ways, this is the beginning of your life, but in other ways, you have all of this history. It's hard to undo decades in a couple of years. Maybe it will take a little longer than you want, but you will get there.

Give it time, my friend. Give it time.

Thanks. 

[Janet_Girl]

Hey Nero,

Think back to the first puberty and how long it seemed to go on forever.  This one shall too.  But all the things you have been through over the last few years I have been here, this will be a walk in the park.

You are a lot stronger than you might give yourself credit for.  There comes a time when we don't even think about our gender any more, just like the cis'.  It will come for you.

And I, for one, am proud to call you my brother.

[Nero]

Hey Nero,

Think back to the first puberty and how long it seemed to go on forever.  This one shall too.  But all the things you have been through over the last few years I have been here, this will be a walk in the park.

You are a lot stronger than you might give yourself credit for.  There comes a time when we don't even think about our gender any more, just like the cis'.  It will come for you.

And I, for one, am proud to call you my brother.

Thanks hon. 

[Beyond]

Hormones never stop working.  Look at a mathematical curve, it spikes at first and descends, but never completely down to zero.