My apologies and some explanations

[Bluetraveler]

I've been off from this forum for a while (and how happy have you been  ?), because I needed to make my thoughts clearer and not overwhelmed by stuff, but here I am again. So without further ado, I'll say I'm sorry for the post that many people have regarded as rude and which I think has been read out of context (as it's part of a series in my blog). I've been PMing with insideontheoutside who started that dreaded topic and, since I think there was nothing too private in my reply, I'll post it here (warning: ass-long)

You're right, I'm not gaining anything by researching transsexuality, after I understood what the deal was with me. I'd spend my time much more wisely studying just physics instead of 4+ hours everyday into trans stuff. The reason(s) I'm doing it is because on the Internet, saving some ignorant and rude remarks about MTFs on sites like Encyclopedia Dramatica, there are only "pro" trans sites. If a confused person (a young teen or a child will probably have the Internet only as a mean to know things about transsexuality) only sees "pro" trans sites (like the transsexual.org I saw and made myself think I was trans), youtube videos from young FTMs, and how every single minimal variation from standard compulsory heterosexuality can be "shoved" into the trans box (as in, "if you're too manly it's likely that you are FTM, but if you're not, you can be FTM too as long as you hate your boobs!), then he/she will probably make a less informed decision should he/she identify as trans. That's why I said transsexuality is alike to a "cult", there's one central dogma which hasn't been definitely proven or disproven yet (at this point in time you can only make probability guesses, or, if you feel it, you can say "I believe it" but, much like a belief in God, it still can't be definitely and objectively proven true). Well, if the things stopped at this point, I'd call it "religion" and not "cult". The reason I called it "cult" is because of the absence of contrary views and the body mod aspect which is very dangerous. I believe 18 as age of consent for this kind of thing is too low; if I had been offered T injections when I was 18, I'd have taken them in a heartbeat. I believe in physical transitioning only as the absolutely last resort, a thing to do if absolutely everything else in the universe fails and the patient feels suicidal, because male hormones are largely irreversible (depending on your genetics and for how long you take them. In my case, since in my family masculinity presents itself largely as hairiness everywhere but not much else, I probably could have turned back if my voice wouldn't have gotten too low. If T however affects your bone structure (I've seen it happening) or voice too much, passing as female again is more difficult) and, what's more, they cause standard male health problems (such as vascular problems, which again are already common in my family) and uniquely trans problems, such as ovarian cancers and other weird cancers which seem to plague the transmen who have been on T for some years. A hysterectomy may be a solution, but it creates other problems as well, since, by destroying part of your endocrine system, you remove the uniquely yours dose of hormones that your body needs and you will need injections or other external hormones to mantain an acceptable (but not really suited for your own body) level of sex hormones for your health, for all your life. Our body is organical and thus, if stuff happens somewhere, stuff happens everywhere. Modern medicine, which is largely the force behind hormonal transition, is not too keen on the "organical" part: that's why I trust herbal/traditional medicine more in some matters. If I hadn't been given herbal remedies, doctors still wouldn't have a clue why my hormones were apparently all ok (though I had some symptoms of PCOS, like some male-pattern hairiness, but that's just because my family is naturally hairy) but I couldn't menstruate (it was a psychological block due to stress and dysphoria). These facts don't regard you directly, as you are one of the few non-transitioning transpeople I've met, but since most trans-ided people want to transition or are already doing it, I think they are important to consider as well. You rightly said the psychiatric extablishment ruined your life by making your genitals fit standard female genitals while you were born some sort of intersex (correct?): it's the same psychiatric extablishment behind physical transition. I don't ignore the realities of people born intersex, with a body and genital organs between male and female, but they are not necessarily connected to transsexuality. If you were born intersex, you are intersex, physically at least. I confess I'm starting to see "gender" as simply "sex", a matter of plumbing and internal organs and not of mind or character. I see as male someone with male organs and possibly "male" upbringing, female someone with female organs and possibly "female" upbringing, and intersexed as someone who's in the middle. I don't attach any kind of stereotype to males or females, and no "mental attitude". I was once selected for a national contest in Physics and I was the only female in my class, which makes my brain possibly not "female average" but also not "male" (and I also won some money, so I'm thankful for my brain...). The only thing, and the only one, which to me gives some credibility to the "trans brain" hypothesis is the "phantom penis/vagina" phenomenon, but that one too might be due to mental conditioning, as neural maps can be very plastic even in adulthood (look up for the neuroscientist Michael Gazzaniga). So I honestly don't know at this point, I'm still open to the "trans brain" hypothesis and if it turned out to be false, it also wouldn't make transpeople mentally ill, just misguided and oppressed by a sexist society. But I honestly can't say at this point, because, as you pointed out, you can't really know what's going on in another person's mind. That's one of life's greatest dilemmas. But I believe in truthful dialogue, and that a person, with some knowledge and human understanding, can come close to knowing others. Otherwise we'd all be islands, and nothing would exist.

I'll add some more general things: I won't comment in this section further if you vehemently don't want me to, I'll quietly disappear. But if there existed a "Questioning" section like someone proposed, I'll happily be the devil's advocate there. I, for how preachy I appear, also don't really believe I can make anyone "snap out of transness" or "convert them": only they can decide if they are trans. What I want to do is propose other etiologies to personal trans cases and alternative to physical transition, which is the only real axe I want to grind, because of the dangers listed above. If this has to be the last post I make here, then I want to add a thing: , my post about trans suicides and my alternative to it (it's still incomplete at the moment and will probably be finished tomorrow). It's the most important thing I have to say and if you want to say something about it, please post a comment on my blog.

Best wishes to everyone and Merry Christmas (a bit early), Serena (aka Bluetraveler)

[Alessandro]

Where's your evidence for all of these "cancers that plague transmen"?  I've never heard about this.  I don't know if T makes you more susceptible to cancer than other things like smoking or whatever.  I have a family history of breast cancer so I'm screwed anyway in that department. 

I don't think this post is going to help you tbh Bluetraveller.  I think you really should just leave us alone.  As for your idea that the internet is all pro-trans... um: LOL!  You need to get out more (on the internet I mean)!  Start with anything by Julie Birchill.  Or anything in the daily mail.  Any fundamentalist religious websites.  Any websites aimed at the "slightly less intelligent, straight, 'normal'" audience.  Believe me, we aren't *that* highly regarded!

Many of the people you are getting at here don't want to pass as female again.  I could consider slipping back into androgynous but not back to 'girl' - I am certain that's not me.  If I have to live as queer ... then I will live as queer.  That's my perogative okay? 

So you decided you weren't trans.  Bully for you.  Now let those of us who are alone, yeah?

[insideontheoutside]

As for your idea that the internet is all pro-trans... um: LOL!  You need to get out more (on the internet I mean)!  Start with anything by Julie Birchill.  Or anything in the daily mail.  Any fundamentalist religious websites.  Any websites aimed at the "slightly less intelligent, straight, 'normal'" audience.  Believe me, we aren't *that* highly regarded!

Yeah, this is pretty much what I said. As a whole, there's a majority of people who are definitely NOT pro-trans.

And BT, like I said in my last pm to you, posting about the "dangers" of transitioning is a tiger trap. The information that's available on the internet begs more research and a lot of it of course comes from anti-trans sources.

Also, as far as I'm aware there have been a couple very small studies done on the differences in the brains of transsexuals. And the results are highly contested still. Although not a lot of this type of research seems to exist, the early results (at least according to what I can pull up on the web - again, it's the web so you have to take that info with a grain of salt) seem to say so. I also very much believe in the fact that a lot can happen to a person in the womb. For me, I believe I was exposed to something - whether it was some sort of hormonal changes in my mother, some external substance, or some "mutation" for lack of a better word. Studies on intersex individuals have proven that such variations can occur. Actually, you don't even have to look to intersex to know that a lot of various things can effect all levels of development of a fetus.

So I think as time goes on and more studies can be done, it will be found that it is not just a mental belief at all in every case of someone who identifies as "trans".

ETA
http://discovermagazine.com/1996/jan/transsexualbrain681 This references the one study - which admittedly was only able to study a small sample of brains (yes, postmortem brains) but the variation found was enough to get the researches attention that maybe something was going on with the brain structures of those identifying as transsexual.

[Bluetraveler]

I finally ended the post about Tezuka and Phoenix, I'd be glad if you read it. And I'm going to sleep because I'm tired and will have class tomorrow  . But I'll answer eventually.

[sneakersjay]

Go speak to some of the ladies here who transitioned back in the 60s and 70s before the internet existed, before anyone could 'talk them into it' or convert them to the cult.

Talk to those of us in our 40s who have always known something wasn't quite right with our gender from the time we were little kids, back when no internet existed, and anything trans related in the news was ridicule, and that trans people were perverts.

Yes, a lot of kids/teens question their identities.  Yes, a lot of kids/teens are probably not trans.  Not that I agree with the gatekeeping system we have in place, but it is there precisely because medical professionals do not want to be sued for giving someone hormones, performing irreversible surgery, on someone who later may regret it.  A recent study someone posted here about trans regrets showed only 4-6% of those who transitioned regretted it, leaving a whopping 94-96% who are happy they did.

Most of us here, young and old, have been to therapists and have not taken HRT lightly, nor as a fad, or a statement to the world.  We've questioned ourselves.  I, personally, at the time I was diagnosed with GID, was hoping that what I felt was something else; transition was the LAST thing I wanted to do.  Telling the world my personal business by coming out and publickly transitioning at work was NOT something i wanted to do.  Which is why I spoke with 3 therapists.  But I was also at the point, at 47 years old, that I transition or die.  I could NOT stand to be perceived as female any longer, and staying female was HARDER than transitioning.

I am now male, period.

I have no problems with people telling their stories, how they almost transitioned and found it wasn't right for them.  But I haven't seen anyone here or on other trans sites telling people they need hormones, or need surgery.  In fact, most of us tell people who come in questioning to see a good gender therapist and work things through BEFORE doing anything.

Will some people transition and later regret it?  Yes.  But for the vast majority of us, true trans people, living as the wrong gender is extremely difficult.  If there were a cure that did not involve transition, most of us would have taken it in a heartbeat.  But nothing else works to fix the problem except transition.

Young people find these sites in the age of the internet, but most kids who are not trans do not go looking for trans sites, thinking it's cool, or want to transition because it seems cool.  Most likely they come here because they are questioning their gender, or a friend is questioning, and they're looking for information.

I haven't seen anyone try to talk any one into transitioning.  Quite the opposite.  But we are here to support those who choose to transition, and to support those who continue questioning where they fit on the gender spectrum.


Jay

[Brendon]

Replace "trans" in the first section of your rant with "gay" and read it back to yourself.

That is how ridiculous you sound.



BTW, "I'm sorry you read my posts incorrectly" is not an apology.

THIS 100%!!!

If my web browser actually showed the reputation thumbs up on this site, I'd be all over this!

[Sean]

Being trans is not a religion or a cult. It is a medically proven condition. Some would call it a disorder; others consider it a natural variation of the human experience. Let's not pretend that this debate changes the fact that we're talking about evidence-based medicine here and science, not religion or faith. Trans people don't exist because of faith.

The fact that you are not aware of the medical, scientific or psychology based literature doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and it doesn't make the support community for people who are trans a "religion" or a "cult" anymore than a forum for people who have diabetes, who have auto-immune disorders or who are....gasp...gay would be a "cult."

We are not pro or con transitioning for any given individual. We are "pro" giving support for people who are transsexual or who  are questioning and are looking for accurate information, a place to vent, an opportunity to meet people similar to them, or even a shoulder to lean on.

You say that if we vehemently don't want you to comment here, you'll quietly disappear. Quite frankly, I think many people already have been vehemently objecting to your comments in multiple places, because they are rude, disrespectful and indicate a profound lack of understanding of what any of us are experiencing. Yet you have not quietly disappeared. You have returned to continue to draw attention to yourself. How much more "vehement objection" do you need? Should we take a poll? You claim to worry that someone searching online will only find "pro" trans sites and that this is terrible or inaccurate. Many of us disagree. But it doesn't matter, because if there isn't enough anti-trans stuff out there, go present the other side of the story in another place on the internet, in a place that hasn't been designated as a support forum for people who are trans or are questioning. It sounds like you're already doing this, so the only reason it seems like you are here is to promote traffic your site. Please go away already. (is that vehement enough?)

[Bluetraveler]

I wanted to reply tomorrow but, since I'm afraid this thread will be closed in a while as usual, I'll be as fast as I can.

From first to last:

I don't think this post is going to help you tbh Bluetraveller.  I think you really should just leave us alone.  As for your idea that the internet is all pro-trans... um: LOL!  You need to get out more (on the internet I mean)!  Start with anything by Julie Birchill.  Or anything in the daily mail.  Any fundamentalist religious websites.  Any websites aimed at the "slightly less intelligent, straight, 'normal'" audience.  Believe me, we aren't *that* highly regarded!

I don't mean general religious/political sites, I'm talking about sites specifically geared to transsexuality (like the famous transsexual.org which has some just wrong or reductive info) or E-pedies like Wikipedia. I have yet to find a site that questions transsexuality or transsexuality as a phenomenon and the larger view in a non-insulting, relatively scientific manner and that's what I wanted to do. I know transphobia is very real and out there.

Also, as far as I'm aware there have been a couple very small studies done on the differences in the brains of transsexuals. And the results are highly contested still. Although not a lot of this type of research seems to exist, the early results (at least according to what I can pull up on the web - again, it's the web so you have to take that info with a grain of salt) seem to say so. I also very much believe in the fact that a lot can happen to a person in the womb. For me, I believe I was exposed to something - whether it was some sort of hormonal changes in my mother, some external substance, or some "mutation" for lack of a better word. Studies on intersex individuals have proven that such variations can occur. Actually, you don't even have to look to intersex to know that a lot of various things can effect all levels of development of a fetus.

The fact that you are not aware of the medical, scientific or psychology based literature doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and it doesn't make the support community for people who are trans a "religion" or a "cult" anymore than a forum for people who have diabetes, who have auto-immune disorders or who are....gasp...gay would be a "cult."

I know there are studies about the brain-theory of transsexuality, I've read them and I'm not discarding their validity in advance. It might very well be valid. But I've also read valid criticism about it elsewhere (the studies are also still very embryonic). I think the jury might still be out from 30 years for now about transsexuality as a hardwired thing as neuroscience is still an infant (I'm a scientist although not involved in that field). But anyway this is not what really matters to me: what matters to me is the "treatment" for it, a treatment that comes from the very school of thought which once mistreated "hysterical" women with hysterectomy and thought gay people were "sexual inverts" and continues treating depression as if it were an isolated brain-chemical thing and not something that includes the "soul" : the psichiatric establishment (I'm also not as illiterate as you'd like to believe). Hormonal  treatment might very well make some people happy and I'm not denying it, but that might also be horrifically wrong for some, is permanent and might have some health hazards as well. Is it so hard to understand why I want to warn some people?

Replace "trans" in the first section of your rant with "gay" and read it back to yourself.

That is how ridiculous you sound.



BTW, "I'm sorry you read my posts incorrectly" is not an apology.

Transsexuality and homosexuality are not comparable in this light because homosexuality as a hardwired condition is much more proven and accepted for now, and also especially because there's no cure for it involving surgeries and synthethical hormones.
I also apologized for the rudeness in my post, not for the content. I'm not taking back what I wrote and most of you seemingly misread.

Most of us here, young and old, have been to therapists and have not taken HRT lightly, nor as a fad, or a statement to the world.  We've questioned ourselves.  I, personally, at the time I was diagnosed with GID, was hoping that what I felt was something else; transition was the LAST thing I wanted to do.  Telling the world my personal business by coming out and publickly transitioning at work was NOT something i wanted to do.  Which is why I spoke with 3 therapists.  But I was also at the point, at 47 years old, that I transition or die.  I could NOT stand to be perceived as female any longer, and staying female was HARDER than transitioning.

I'm not denying any validity to your story and I'm happy you found some happiness, but I didn't take it lightly, I never did. At some times my gender dysphoria was the only thing I could think about. If anything, I am much more likely to overthink things to the point of exhaustion, like one philosophy professor once told me. But some young people who are new here or not used to serious self-examination might need some external help. And in the age of ->-bleeped-<-ing online gender therapy I can believe some might take things lightly. This is not directed to anyone in particular, just an observation.

Go speak to some of the ladies here who transitioned back in the 60s and 70s before the internet existed, before anyone could 'talk them into it' or convert them to the cult.

Talk to those of us in our 40s who have always known something wasn't quite right with our gender from the time we were little kids, back when no internet existed, and anything trans related in the news was ridicule, and that trans people were perverts.

I know trans or otherwise queer people have always existed, it's just the "cure" I'm objecting to!

But it doesn't matter, because if there isn't enough anti-trans stuff out there, go present the other side of the story in another place on the internet, in a place that hasn't been designated as a support forum for people who are trans or are questioning. It sounds like you're already doing this, so the only reason it seems like you are here is to promote traffic your site. Please go away already. (is that vehement enough?)

I have posted lately on Dirt's blog and I'm not ashamed of it, much like other people, some trans, did. But this has not much to do with it. Also pardon me for directing traffic towards a post that's against trans suicide, as if it was a non-existant thing while in this very forum, not much time ago, two people admitted they tried to committ suicide . Yeah, it's so very selfish of me. Maybe you also didn't realize I tried to help, for as little as I can do, but all I received here lately were thumbs down for that "childish and ridiculous" names remark. Yeah.

But if you insist so much, and no questioning section ever opens, then I'll just quietly disappear. Good day/night

[sneakersjay]

I know trans or otherwise queer people have always existed, it's just the "cure" I'm objecting to!

So you believe trans people exist, yet should NOT transition.  That's like saying diabetics shouldn't take insulin.  Why do you care what trans people do if you are not trans?

Also pardon me for directing traffic towards a post that's against trans suicide, as if it was a non-existant thing while in this very forum, not much time ago, two people admitted they tried to committ suicide .

Had the two people who tried to commit suicide transitioned?  Were they on HRT?  Did they have unsupportive families bent on creating drama? Or were they unable to transition/get therapy because of finances and/or family circumstances?

Jay

[j83]

Transsexuality and homosexuality are not comparable in this light because homosexuality as a hardwired condition is much more proven and accepted for now, and also especially because there's no cure for it involving surgeries and synthethical hormones.

Oh so we all chose to be trans? I chose this, did i? Me and every other trans person on this board chose to live our lives this way because apparently being trans isn't a 'hardwired condition' like being gay is.

Right, well that all makes sense now! Thanks!

[Bluetraveler]

So you believe trans people exist, yet should NOT transition.  That's like saying diabetics shouldn't take insulin.  Why do you care what trans people do if you are not trans?

You can do what you want with your body, and that includes transition if you're really desperate and suicidal (I said it in my original post). I'm not here to take away your freedoms and besides I couldn't. However I care about what some trans people do to their body though just as if I would care if some modern Chinese girl binded her feet just like her granny (the comparision is not perfect, I know): because the Chinese girl is mutilating a healthy body part. I know transitioning is more refined, but looking at some bottom surgery results I can't help but puke (sorry if it's graphic). I might be misguided about it, I know I'm no mouth of truth and no one should take me as one, but is it so hard to understand if I care about something else other than myself or try to look at the big picture? I'm a little baffled by this honestly.

Oh so we all chose to be trans? I chose this, did i? Me and every other trans person on this board chose to live our lives this way because apparently being trans isn't a 'hardwired condition' like being gay is.

Right, well that all makes sense now! Thanks!

I never said this. Transsexuality might be hardwired just as it might not be (I don't know yet because I don't have enough proof one way or the other). If it wasn't, or if it was hardwired but if some non-trans person got into the trans mindset, it wouldn't really be a choice (I believe no one really would want to choose to be a minority oppressed group, it just doesn't make sense!) but more like a push from an oppressive society you can try to counteract this way. It's possible it happens and I've heard of it happening to others besides myself (look at  the recent dysphoria comment section in Dirt's blog or some of her posts on female expectations. You might hate here but what she says in those kind of posts (not the others) is just objectively true).

Had the two people who tried to commit suicide transitioned?  Were they on HRT?  Did they have unsupportive families bent on creating drama? Or were they unable to transition/get therapy because of finances and/or family circumstances?

I just know one has not transitioned but another has and passes constantly without problems. I don't know anything else. Besides, the post I made on my blog is directed towards trans readers but there's nothing trans specific about it, it could be read by everyone.

[SnailPace]

@Bluetraveler: So let's assume here that transsexualism IS a biological thing.  You have said that you don't know if you believe this or not, so I had to make this clarification.

Are you opposed to all plastic surgery? Are you opposed to XY men getting gynecomastia surgeries on their chests?  Because if you are not AS VEHEMENTLY against these things as you are against trans surgeries, then you must see that it's not the surgeries you really have a problem with.

[Osiris]

Bluetraveler if your intention is to tell everyone you come across not to transition or why they shouldn't then you're never going to make any ground with anyone and sadly many of your posts come across as such. All we can do on this site is to help inform others and share personal experiences. There is no set way to go when it comes to transitioning or coping with gender dysphoria or with any other part of our lives. We all must weigh our own options and make our own decisions.

Susan's is most often populated with people who have already gone through transition, started or decided that transition isn't right for them, and if anyone is ever questioning if they should transition or not they are often advised to hold back and not jump into anything that they may end up regretting.

Susan's is not a EVERYONE MUST TRANSITION website. And it's certainly not an EVERYONE MUST AVOID TRANSITION AT ALL COSTS website. It's an informative site to help people with whatever path they may take whether it be to transition or not.

I bet you do have a valuable message to share with us, however it is from your perspective and your's alone. Your posts often come across like "I think that transition isn't right because of (insert) and you should too because you may not really be trans." This offends a lot of people you come across on this forum, as you see with all the replies to your posts. A better way to go about it would be "Transition wasn't right for me because (insert)."

You don't need to direct your story at certain people. You don't need to make others agree with you which you often seem to be trying to do. All you need to do is say how you feel personally and leave it at that. If you continue these posts that have lead to all these disagreements then you won't help anyone and you certainly won't make any friends.

If you want to debate over transition then go ahead and have a crack at it, but don't force your opinions on us with the guise of trying to "help." It is not appreciated and certainly not welcome.

I'm locking this thread so things don't get out of control.