Thnking on FtMs

[pixiegirl]

Sooo... I got prodded into thinking about this by another topic, the idea that FtMs tend to identfy themselves somewhere on the Trans spectrum later than MtFs, and I was wondering just how much that has to do with the extra flexibility girls have compared to boys when it comes to gender expression.

If you think about it, a lot of things that girls easily do could be interpreted as the equivalent of coping mechanisms that a lot of MtFs develop somewhere along the way before realising or knowing that GID exists. Not just tomboyish behavior either - being encouraged to show 'masculine' competitive traits in sports, range of acceptable clothing, etc.

So I wonder... does some of this act as a safety valve, either conciously or subconciously or both, for gender issues that MtFs just don't have available, so delaying recognition of gender issues until nearer adulthood?

Example time (I have so much fun thinking of these):
A teenage girl goes out wearing jeans and a t-shirt and a nondescript top, no make up or obviously feminine stuff, goes to a store and buys a sports magazine and a razor, browses through some male clothes in another and then goes into a gamestop.
Think about how out of place that would seem.. how many people passing by would comment or notice or give a toss that they're not in girl presentation mode. If this was an FtM somewhere in their head a boy would be going 'boo-yah', there would be tacit acknowledgement from society, even if society didn't realise it, that them being boyish is ok. Just by not calling them on it. Just from not having people stare or walk up and ask why they aren't in a dress. As an added bonus they could do all of that in full on girly girl mode too.

Now compare with:
A teenage boy, maybe with some fluffy stubble goes out wearing hair clips some make up and sundress, goes to a store and grabs a beauty/gossip magazine, browses some skirts and tops in another and heads into a MAC store.

I really didn't need to go past 'wearing hair clips some make up and sundress' before gender role violation alarms started going off, people stopped and stared, parents covered their childrens eyes, maidens swooned in distress and western civilization began to collapse in flames. Very little chance of not being directly challenge stepping outside like that. No acknowledgement, no recognition, no pressure release. The world staring at you telling you being like this is wrong. Would still probably get funny looks doing any of that in boyish boy mode.

Going out in the world dressed and acting like the opposite gender is a pretty big marker. Hell, add correcting pronouns when someone talks to you and you've got the RLT right there. Being able to present like that and not get called out on it by society is the goal of passing.

So what do you think? Does this equate? Could this be a part of why *in general* FtMs seem to start questioning a little bit later than MtFs? (extend to andro/genderqueer/et al)

[Eve of chaos]

I've actually been thinking about that a lot lately. i think for some individuals it can definitely be true. and i also think that there are some who are fine with their birth gender because they can express themselves without consequence. but if the role toleration was reversed they'd probably identify as trans.

but that's all dependent ion the individual I think. i never felt constrained in my male role, I acted very fem, dressed in girls pants without being emo and stuff like that, I never felt like i had to hide my tendencies but I still feel at what I'm told to be an early age that Having a male body and being seen as male isn't making me happy at all. just being able to express myself isn't enough.

[sneakersjay]

I don't think guys identify later, judging by the majority of youth on this site  , but I do think we have it a bit easier, for precisely the reasons you state.  We can start presenting more masculine long before we come out, and nobody really bats an eye.  Though I will say that for me, personally, it was much harder on my psyche being read as a butch dyke than plain old female.  Thankfully that phase was short lived.

My son played dress up as a young kid, complete with makeup and nail polish thanks to his sister.  It was all good and he was allowed to explore that.  Near as I can tell as he approaches the teen years is that he is straight.  I wish all boys could do that and not be shamed for it, whether they be straight, gay, or really girls in boy bodies.


Jay

[Arch]

I think that before you try to establish why a particular phenomenon exists, you need to establish that the phenomenon exists. Can you show that, on average, FTMs identify "later" than MTFs?

[spacial]

I think that before you try to establish why a particular phenomenon exists, you need to establish that the phenomenon exists. Can you show that, on average, FTMs identify "later" than MTFs?

I have noticed this from many of the posts on this site.

Genetic males tend to know something is not right when they are about 4 years. Though this varies.

Genetic females tend to know when they hit thir teens.

That is just my observation.

If I were to hazard a guess at an explaination I suggest it may be partly due to the greater flexability female children have in clothing. But that doesn't explain the social aspects.

Then again, perhaps this is a question that needs a poll.

May I suggest asking,

When did your get your first indication of your gender problems?

Gmales, under 6, between 6 and 12, between 12 and 18, over 18.

Same selection for G females.

But the two groups will need to answer separately.

[Arch]

You gonna start a survey, Spacial? That would cool...I wonder if someone else has done it already?

For me, it was definitely under 6.

ETA: It depends on how you define your terms, as well. I didn't actively identify as trans-anything until I found out that FTMs existed. But I was a boy when I was a little kid, and then I was a tomboy. Most of the trans guys I know were tomboys when they were little. If you define that as belonging on the "trans spectrum," then I think most FTMs identify that way when they are under twelve. But that's just my impression.

[pixiegirl]

@Arch

I think that before you try to establish why a particular phenomenon exists, you need to establish that the phenomenon exists. Can you show that, on average, FTMs identify "later" than MTFs?

Well I got thinking about it off the back of several things brought up by FtMs in posts elsewhere on Susans. In no way making authoritative claims or absolutist ones but it seemed worth asking the question based on what's been said.

I didn't actively identify as trans-anything until I found out that FTMs existed. But I was a boy when I was a little kid, and then I was a tomboy. Most of the trans guys I know were tomboys when they were little. If you define that as belonging on the "trans spectrum," then I think most FTMs identify that way when they are under twelve. But that's just my impression.

Ok, but you were able to be a tomboy, and thats a hell of a lot closer to being able to express who you truly are than most MtFs get near. What I'm wondering about is whether having the ability to be a tomboy provides a 'comfort zone' that some FtMs hang out in as they grow up that influences when they begin to consider gender more deeply. This obviously does not apply to you - some people figure it out early and never waver. Cool.

Plenty more go back and forth questioning, acting out and trying to conform in cycles. This is in no way a 'who had it harder' topic, I want to be clear on that. I'm just interested in whether anyone, on reflection, thinks being able to be more masculinely expressive had any mitigating effect on gender issues for them for a while that may have influenced them looking for answers about transsexuality at, say, 15 instead of 13, for a random example.

[spacial]

You gonna start a survey, Spacial? That would cool...I wonder if someone else has done it already?

For me, it was definitely under 6.

Done.

There are two separate threads, one for MtF ad one for FtM.

Hopefully many will respond and will do so in the appropriate section.


https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,89109.0.html For FtM

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,89110.0.html for MtF

[pixiegirl]

@ spacial not a bad idea for a poll there sometime.
And I think the clothing aspects are all wrapped up in the social reasons... but that would involve a ridiculously long opinionated post to get into 

[sneakersjay]

I was 4 when I discovered my lack of penis....and was very pissed off.  Took me 49 years to get it back !!


Jay

[Nero]

You gonna start a survey, Spacial? That would cool...I wonder if someone else has done it already?

For me, it was definitely under 6.

ETA: It depends on how you define your terms, as well. I didn't actively identify as trans-anything until I found out that FTMs existed. But I was a boy when I was a little kid, and then I was a tomboy. Most of the trans guys I know were tomboys when they were little. If you define that as belonging on the "trans spectrum," then I think most FTMs identify that way when they are under twelve. But that's just my impression.

Yeah, and I think the OP and the posts that spawned it are talking about different things. I identified as trans later than a lot of mtfs (regardless of transition age, a lot of mtfs seem to have known they were transsexual at early ages, like 13) because I didn't know ftms existed. And we seem to have more 'options' as to what the problem is and are encouraged in those options. While we still get comments and some abuse, generally being seen as a 'strong' or masculine woman is viewed as being positive. Or at least a lot moreso than men with so called feminine traits.

But that's not to say I wasn't aware my body didn't fit at a young age.

[jmaxley]

I realized something was wrong early on, but didn't know what it was until 25. 

[pixiegirl]

^^ <- to Forum Admin's post
indeed..

maybe I should have phrased things completely differently in the OP. Not sure how though, something like ''do you think being able to be tomboyish distracted you from having to deal with your gender issues, and if you didn't have that would you have decided to think about/act on transition sooner (or have made you unhappier when too young to know about/deal with what was going on in your head than you were because it side-effected as a coping mechanism) than you did?' maybe?

And you're definitely right about the relative options, that was part of what I was thinking about. Any serious display of feminine traits from a boy, at pretty much any age, gets interpreted through the 'flamboyent effeminate gay male' paradigm with all that entails, including dragging sexuality into it. Closet up good or prepare to be gaybashed, bullied and picked on are the only options from there. I think, that might, bring into focus the need to transition (even if you don't know it's possible) a bit quicker for MtF kids than would happen if there was an equivalent to 'tomboy' that you wouldn't get beat down for.

(Your mileage may vary, rampant generalisations above, no allowance made for nicely tolerant families/schools/friends/yetis)

[Nero]

^^ <- to Forum Admin's post
indeed..

maybe I should have phrased things completely differently in the OP. Not sure how though, something like ''do you think being able to be tomboyish distracted you from having to deal with your gender issues, and if you didn't have that would you have decided to think about/act on transition sooner (or have made you unhappier when too young to know about/deal with what was going on in your head than you were because it side-effected as a coping mechanism) than you did?' maybe?

And you're definitely right about the relative options, that was part of what I was thinking about. Any serious display of feminine traits from a boy, at pretty much any age, gets interpreted through the 'flamboyent effeminate gay male' paradigm with all that entails, including dragging sexuality into it. Closet up good or prepare to be gaybashed, bullied and picked on are the only options from there. I think, that might, bring into focus the need to transition (even if you don't know it's possible) a bit quicker for MtF kids than would happen if there was an equivalent to 'tomboy' that you wouldn't get beat down for.

(Your mileage may vary, rampant generalisations above, no allowance made for nicely tolerant families/schools/friends/yetis)

Yeah, I wonder if this may account for supposed discrepancies among ftm and mtf stats. There's not as much outside pressure for us, or at least not as explicit. I crossdressed for years, but it's not really crossdressing for females. I may have been more desperate earlier for a solution if not for that small comfort.

Of course ftms are transitioning younger and younger now, so this may more apply to older groups.

[Arch]

Pixiegirl, sounds more like you're asking about whether FTMs tend to transition later or if they start dealing with the trans issues later, not whether they tend to self-identify later (as male/maleish/masculine/boy/boi/whatever). Is that it?

[Arch]

I called myself a cross dresser for years, but I don't how much it played a role in why I transitioned later. While it's true that "women" are allowed more leeway in dressing and presenting in more masculine ways--and that got me "mistaken" for a boy sometimes--it is also true that people like me are virtually invisible as cross dressers, as Nero says. I found that enormously frustrating. Usually when people saw me, they either "mistook" me for a boy and then apologized and seemed to think that nothing was particularly odd about me, or they saw me as a girl to start with and saw very little odd about me.

Are gender issues are pretty obvious when a pre-transition MTF grows her hair long and dresses in peculiarly female styles? That gets her a lot of crap from people, but at least she is visible--but visible as what? Is she seen as a gay man or a trans person or what? Gender or sexuality? Or both? And does the unacceptability of her presentation impel her to transition earlier, or does society's lack of acceptance of MTFs cause her to transition later?

Interesting questions.

[Nero]

I called myself a cross dresser for years, but I don't how much it played a role in why I transitioned later. While it's true that "women" are allowed more leeway in dressing and presenting in more masculine ways--and that got me "mistaken" for a boy sometimes--it is also true that people like me are virtually invisible as cross dressers, as Nero says. I found that enormously frustrating. Usually when people saw me, they either "mistook" me for a boy and then apologized and seemed to think that nothing was particularly odd about me, or they saw me as a girl to start with and saw very little odd about me.

Are gender issues are pretty obvious when a pre-transition MTF grows her hair long and dresses in peculiarly female styles? That gets her a lot of crap from people, but at least she is visible--but visible as what? Is she seen as a gay man or a trans person or what? Gender or sexuality? Or both? And does the unacceptability of her presentation impel her to transition earlier, or does society's lack of acceptance of MTFs cause her to transition later?

Interesting questions.

That part has always got to me. If an ftm doesn't pass, no one knows we're trying to. 

But yeah, I think the main idea is that there's less outside 'drama' for us. (Not to say none; I still got a good deal growing up. But in general, we get less feedback) I'm not sure that either gender identifies or transitions earlier though.

[pixiegirl]

That part has always got to me. If an ftm doesn't pass, no one knows we're trying to. 

I can imagine how frustrating that gets, and I kinda wonder how often that winds up being the thing that pushes FtMs to realise they need to transition (where that happens,of course)

That gets her a lot of crap from people, but at least she is visible--but visible as what? Is she seen as a gay man or a trans person or what? Gender or sexuality? Or both?

Think of it as none of the getting ignored but usually with all the denial of acknowledgement of preferred identity that happens with the above point.

And does the unacceptability of her presentation impel her to transition earlier, or does society's lack of acceptance of MTFs cause her to transition later?

This.. now flip that round in your head and apply it to FtMs, something like...does the acceptance of his presentation quell the need to transition until later, or does societies lack of acknowledgement of what that presentation actually represents prompt an earlier transition.... and you have my original question.

Interesting questions indeed

Pixiegirl, sounds more like you're asking about whether FTMs tend to transition later or if they start dealing with the trans issues later, not whether they tend to self-identify later (as male/maleish/masculine/boy/boi/whatever). Is that it?

I think maybe there was a bit of a terminology issue here. I guess I use self-identify as the point when you realise you need to do something about it. Realising something is different as a small child.. there is a world between that realisation and getting to the point where you know you won't grow up as a boy/girl or wake up one day in the right body or a magical fix will just happen.

For me self-identify is the point where you know none of that will happen, and realising that whatever you're doing now (c/d-ing,etc) probably isn't going to hold you together forever, and you start wondering about consequences. Thats what I meant.

[Aegir]

I identified really early but I also had strong gender roles to adhere to growing up so I really can't say. I'm having a much easier time coping with the dissonance between what I look like and what I think I should look like but all in all I'm much better now that I'm in a position where gender roles aren't as heavily present.

What happened to me as a kid and the aftermath on my behavior has me convinced I'll never pass, though. I'm aware of every single girly thing I do but can't stop. 

[Aikotribs]

OP post is actually something that had me thinking for months too.
The freedom women get imo slows the progress in some cases, however letting the FtM voice out, will make allot more people realize they are trans. If it where not for the internet I would have going into therapy for anxiety, returning depressions and sleeping problems. No one would have polly noticed, I just get the 'yeah shes not a girly girl.' all the time.

Why didn't I notice ? Well I did notice, but women complain about their bodies all the time. I complained too, cuz I didn't know wtf I was looking at, and I know it felt wrong since age of 10 or so. I was told at early age to 'deal with it' ' your a girl ,stop whining' and I believed it. Both of my parents had always known something was 'wrong' tho.

Why didn't anyone else notice ? Simply said nobody here had ever heard of a FtM, your just a tomboy or a butch lesbian and thats about it. 'no you can't be a man, your just not a girly women and thats okay! ' yeeeaaaah ....
People just keep calling you to whats between your legs, nobody seems to really question it.


An MtF is going to have allot more flack but just as the 'realy butch lesbian' she might be mistaken for a 'feminine gay man' or perhaps even a drag queen.

In overall the behavior of a trans person is much to much linked to something that doesn't always has something to do with it ; your sexuality. Whats too bad imo, sexuality doesn't define your gender expression!



tho I would like to address that women, after a while, really start to hate me ... while they just are nice to biomales. beh ...
so yeah, its a terms of freedom and jet not.