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Trouble with Uncle

Started by Britney_413, December 20, 2010, 02:00:04 AM

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Britney_413

Well I'm out to most of my family and they have generally been accepting. None of them really like it of course but they aren't hateful or prejudiced. The exception is this one uncle. Now on Christmas we are all gathering at his house. This man I believe is a closet case (of either gender or sexual orientation issues or both) which doesn't surprise me that he would have trouble. Anyway, on Thanksgiving when everyone was over I was dressed as a female but in a very subtle manner (i.e. just jeans and a shirt, no makeup, no purse). I talked to him and he doesn't want me to come over to his house dressed as a girl and that he would have to ask me to leave. He is saying he is trying to "protect the kids" as if the kids actually give a damn. I didn't argue with him but told him I'd try to "tone it down" as much as I could. He told me he doesn't want to see me in any makeup or with "undergarments" meaning a bra. After I talked it over with my mother we both decided that under no circumstances am I going to "compromise." Should he decide to "turn me away" the rest of the family will all leave. My mother won't tolerate it and likely several others won't either.

This man has a history of leaving his wife at home once in a blue moon and going by himself to an unknown bar, getting drunk, and making it home around 5 or 6 am. Bars close at 2 am in Arizona so there is only one explanation as to what would happen between then. Back in 2007 I ran into him at a gay dive bar. He got scared and left after I confronted him. His wife does not know about it other than that he was at a bar that night. This bar has a lot of TG people including prostitutes as it is a dive bar. I found out from the bartender that he had been there a good dozen times or so and often went during male stripper night. I'm a nice girl until someone is mean to me. I want to prevent as much drama as possible. However, should he create a scene and refuse to allow me over to his house on Christmas, I will pull the "wild card." I don't think he wants his wife and kids to know he is going to transsexual bars. It is hypocritical for him to have a problem with me when he is doing this. I'm not going to force anyone to accept me but I have no problem telling the truth when someone is being blatantly hypocritical. My Mom will be calling him and stating the ultimatum. Any thoughts?
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CaitJ

Quite frankly, I wouldn't want to go to his house if he's that much of a jackass.
My soon to be brother in law acted like a transphobic jerk last Christmas and I've made it abundantly clear that he is never welcome in our house again.

P.S. I wouldn't go Outing him unless you're prepared for the same thing in return when you're very far along in your transition. In fact, no matter how big an ass someone is, Outing them is a total No Go for me.
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Cindy

Go somewhere else for Christmas. He is a nasty piece of work from what you describe. And I agrre with Caitj don't out him, lose him.

JMO

Cindy
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rejennyrated

I don't think you are doing this quite right, although I understand that you are only trying to show willing and be accommodating.

In my experience offering to compromise with such idiots is the worst possible thing you can do. They tend to interpret it as weakness. Most of them don't want a compromise which allows everyone to get by. They want the whole issue to be made to go away. They want to be the hero who will stop you in your tracks, put things back nice and tidy as they were before you started, and they usually see any offer of compromise as a signal that if they just pushed a bit harder they could do so.

In addition there are always "swing voters" in the family. They will go along with who ever seems to be winning. It is vitally important that they see that this sort of nonsense does not gain ANYTHING. That way they will be unlikely to try and follow suit. For all these reasons it is most important that you do not give any visible ground. If your uncle does not want you to be there you should indeed be prepared to politely leave with or without the rest.

My own advice is that whilst you should always be reasonable and polite you should, in practice, be as unyielding as diamonds in matters pertaining to your transition.

Your only concern should be the rest of the family and keeping them on board, but personally back in the day when I very occasionally faced these sorts of issue my reaction was "I am sorry but I am female and I am coming dressed as myself. I am not about to pretend to be some figment of your imagination so that you can ignore the truth. This is the only me on offer, so take it or leave it."

And as for no "undergarments" I would just point to my chest and say "if you think for a moment that I am going to risk tearing connecting tissue in these after I had to go through so much to get them you are out of your tiny mind pal. I come WITH undergarments or not at all - your choice."

Only one member of our family ever tried anything like it with me, and my mother swiftly cut him down and put him straight. After that NO ONE else dared!
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Cindy

On reflection and following Jenny's excellent post, and that your Mum etc supports you totally. I have changed my mind.  I would go as the feminine lady you are. How dare someone dictate what a woman wears. Put on your prettiest lingerie, that makes you feel good. A minimum of shirt/blouse/jumper depending upon the weather. BUT hopefully a dress, something feminine that you like. Heels I hope and nice make up. It is Christmas day after all and a girl should look good on a public outing with her family. If he doesn't like it, then the problem is solved, it is his (or its) problem. Why should it be yours?
Why should this loser dictate your life? You have gone so far against so much and then to allow a total tosser to dictate what you do. Bring it to a head and be the woman you are. You will get full support from everyone except the freak.

Hugs

Cindy
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Debra

Ugh some people are idiots and yes when someone is this crazy about it, it usually does seem to mean they have their own issues they can't deal with. Sad but true.

I'm just glad your family is behind you, that's amazing!

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Britney_413

I've decided to look at this strategically. On Thanksgiving there were nine of us present and all saw me as a female but in a very subtle way. I had no makeup and no purse but wore a black blouse, black jeans, nail polish, long hair, feminine sandals, and had small (but fake) A to B cups. On Christmas there will at least be ten of us all of who also have seen me presenting female.

One of those is me and the other is my mother. My mother is extremely supportive although she would have wished this didn't happen.

Two will be an uncle and his wife both of whom are very supportive and care even less about it than my mom.

Then there are two other people, one of which is fine with it and the other who doesn't particularly like my transition but will accept it regardless.

The remaining four are the original problem set who consists of the uncle, wife, two kids (12 and 16) and potentially an 11th person being the 16-year-old's boyfriend who was one of the nine on Thanksgiving. Now on Thanksgiving, I never got any weird stares or comments from any of the three kids. I can't completely know how the kids felt but I get the impression the kids have more important things to care about than my appearance. Plus, I'm an adult and even if they don't like it they will respect me as an elder. I've known them since babies and always gotten along well. The two who are having the problem are the uncle and wife with the uncle being the real problem. Of course this is the uncle who has been seen at a gay/trans bar. While Thanksgiving was at Mom's house, Christmas is being held at their house.

As stated, I offered to tone down the appearance with him similar to Thanksgiving but he didn't like that. I told him I would make an effort but didn't exactly make a promise. His concern was over these fake boobs which were very small and hardly noticable. Without them, I would like a feminine boy which I don't want. So here is the deal. I will dress similar to Thanksgiving--as a female but very androgynous/subtle. My mother has decided she will talk to him (hopefully today) and tell him the ultimatum.

Now if he insists that I cannot come over or if he turns me away at the door then she has decided she will not come over either. The two of us plan on carpooling with two others who are supportive. That means four of us will now not be going should he do this. Then there are two more who would be very upset if he turned us all away and there is a chance they might leave too. That would essentially result in Christmas being back at Mom's house but without the uncle and his immediate family and they would have a lonely Christmas (tough). We have already set up a gift exchange where names are drawn. A severe absence like this would generally screw it up. So it is going to be kind of a battle of ways between me and this uncle. I'm not budging and it looks like plenty of others will go my way so we'll see what happens.

I don't have a problem outing this Uncle about the gay bar. He knows I saw him there and he knows he is being a hypocrite. If he wants to cop an attitude over my gender and sexuality issues when he clearly has similar issues of his own then he should be held accountable over that. Similar to a Bible-thumping preacher who constantly rails against homosexuality, when he is caught with a male prostitute nobody would dare keep their mouth shut about it. I don't consider myself a mean person but I do believe that what goes around comes around. One of the few things I don't tolerate is hypocrisy. It would be like my supervisor writing me up for taking a stapler off his desk without asking right after I saw him sneak a computer to his car. If someone wants to be stupid like that as far as I'm concerned they are hanging themselves and I'm just the messenger.

I appreciate everyone's support and advice and will keep you all posted.
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rejennyrated

Quote from: Britney_413 on December 21, 2010, 02:47:17 AM
I've decided to look at this strategically. On Thanksgiving there were nine of us present and all saw me as a female but in a very subtle way. I had no makeup and no purse but wore a black blouse, black jeans, nail polish, long hair, feminine sandals, and had small (but fake) A to B cups. On Christmas there will at least be ten of us all of who also have seen me presenting female.

One of those is me and the other is my mother. My mother is extremely supportive although she would have wished this didn't happen.

Two will be an uncle and his wife both of whom are very supportive and care even less about it than my mom.

Then there are two other people, one of which is fine with it and the other who doesn't particularly like my transition but will accept it regardless.

The remaining four are the original problem set who consists of the uncle, wife, two kids (12 and 16) and potentially an 11th person being the 16-year-old's boyfriend who was one of the nine on Thanksgiving. Now on Thanksgiving, I never got any weird stares or comments from any of the three kids. I can't completely know how the kids felt but I get the impression the kids have more important things to care about than my appearance. Plus, I'm an adult and even if they don't like it they will respect me as an elder. I've known them since babies and always gotten along well. The two who are having the problem are the uncle and wife with the uncle being the real problem. Of course this is the uncle who has been seen at a gay/trans bar. While Thanksgiving was at Mom's house, Christmas is being held at their house.

As stated, I offered to tone down the appearance with him similar to Thanksgiving but he didn't like that. I told him I would make an effort but didn't exactly make a promise. His concern was over these fake boobs which were very small and hardly noticable. Without them, I would like a feminine boy which I don't want. So here is the deal. I will dress similar to Thanksgiving--as a female but very androgynous/subtle. My mother has decided she will talk to him (hopefully today) and tell him the ultimatum.

Now if he insists that I cannot come over or if he turns me away at the door then she has decided she will not come over either. The two of us plan on carpooling with two others who are supportive. That means four of us will now not be going should he do this. Then there are two more who would be very upset if he turned us all away and there is a chance they might leave too. That would essentially result in Christmas being back at Mom's house but without the uncle and his immediate family and they would have a lonely Christmas (tough). We have already set up a gift exchange where names are drawn. A severe absence like this would generally screw it up. So it is going to be kind of a battle of ways between me and this uncle. I'm not budging and it looks like plenty of others will go my way so we'll see what happens.

I don't have a problem outing this Uncle about the gay bar. He knows I saw him there and he knows he is being a hypocrite. If he wants to cop an attitude over my gender and sexuality issues when he clearly has similar issues of his own then he should be held accountable over that. Similar to a Bible-thumping preacher who constantly rails against homosexuality, when he is caught with a male prostitute nobody would dare keep their mouth shut about it. I don't consider myself a mean person but I do believe that what goes around comes around. One of the few things I don't tolerate is hypocrisy. It would be like my supervisor writing me up for taking a stapler off his desk without asking right after I saw him sneak a computer to his car. If someone wants to be stupid like that as far as I'm concerned they are hanging themselves and I'm just the messenger.

I appreciate everyone's support and advice and will keep you all posted.
100% TOP of the class!

Also, if you haven't already done so, no harm in telling your mum about the Gay bar in confidence, and asking her to keep the secret until he has decided what he wants to do. It might  just give her a bit more leverage when she talks to him to get him to be reasonable ;)

But overall I think you have that perfectly. Well done. It's easy to give advice from the perspective of someone for whom transition is many decades in the past. Its much less easy when you are in the middle of it, so give yourself a huge pat on the back for a job well handled.

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Cindy

Sounds like a plan.

A very good plan.

Does Mum know of the Gay nature of Uncle?

As we all know nothing at all wrong in being Gay but hypocrisy stinks. Particularly blatant cruel stuff.

I've posted three times on this thread and changed my mind three times.  So it's genetic (XY). Third time advice? burn the bastard. I'm 'sure' he is using condoms and protecting his wife. She should know.


Sorry for being a horrible person ::)
Cindy
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CaitJ

Quote from: Britney_413 on December 21, 2010, 02:47:17 AM
I don't have a problem outing this Uncle about the gay bar. He knows I saw him there and he knows he is being a hypocrite. If he wants to cop an attitude over my gender and sexuality issues when he clearly has similar issues of his own then he should be held accountable over that. Similar to a Bible-thumping preacher who constantly rails against homosexuality, when he is caught with a male prostitute nobody would dare keep their mouth shut about it. I don't consider myself a mean person but I do believe that what goes around comes around.

Fair enough. Don't expect any sympathy if 5 years from now you're stealth and he Outs you to your workplace and friends though.
As you said, what goes around, comes around - and the distribution of it isn't always fair or just.
I hope everything works out for you though  :)
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Britney_413

I'm not striving for stealth nor am I striving to be "out and proud." I am interested in simply living my life. I don't need to hide who I am (before or after surgery). Similar to being a certain religion, political party, or other issue, it isn't something I need to tell everyone but something that can and will be disclosed to those who have a need to know.

I'm not even that close to this uncle or his family. I see them a few times per year and generally just on holidays. They have no influence whatsoever in my life. Their house is almost in foreclosure, he has not had a steady job for over a year, and has an occasionaly drinking problem. He got fired years ago from a job for looking at porn on work computers. He has "stepped out" at bars every few months for years and years yet somehow their marriage is still standing. He has gotten DUIs including a DUI-related accident that nearly cost him his life. The man is a mess and has been for as long as I can remember. I'm not one to kick a dog when its down but let's look at something really obvious here. This guy has all of this going on with him and yet he is judging me for being trans? That's BS. Unlike him I have not been convicted of a crime nor engaged in any of his many destructive behaviors. It is not a competition but he is in no place to judge.

Anyway, my mother talked to him and nothing was really resolved so it is still up in the air as to what happens on Christmas Day. He wants me to call him and talk to him again. I'm frankly getting tired of it. There is nothing to discuss. I am who I am and told him I'm transitioning to become a female. I don't even normally call him anyway but it was only at the suggestion of one of the other family members to call him so that he could be informed about my TG issues. I'm not going to call him back. Again, if he tries to ruin our Christmas by not letting us over there (me and those who support me) I will totally out him. Some people need a taste of their own medicine and I won't be sorry about it.

Another thing is that this man is potentially violent. While I'm not anticipating the worst I do have to be prepared. Should he decide to get angry over a disagreement and assault me, I will not hesitate to call the police and I will press charges. I'm getting closer to being 30 years old and while I'm still young I'm getting old enough that I don't have to put up with this crap.

Another thing to add here is that I've never really like the guy even as young as age 3 for one simple reason: criticism. Every time I have ever been around him he has criticized one or more things about me. This continues to this day. Yet at family functions he aggressively tells others to "be positive." Anyway we'll see what happens.
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Cindy

Sorry Britney,

This is going to be brutal.

Take charge of your life. Your Mum supports you. You are way too mature to be hiding. You have a complete ass hole of an uncle who will never change. Do what you want to do. Go with your Mum to a  restaurant, why deal with fools? He is never going to accept you. So?

Cindy
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rite_of_inversion

I favor the blow-the-whole-thing-off approach...either he turns you away at the door and it stinks...or you get to go in and try to pretend to be comfortable. Either way is a super-rotten way to spend a holiday, no?

Chinese buffet and a whiskey on the rocks after for the win! ;D

And, no, don't out him in revenge unless you know for dead-certain he's been putting his wife at risk...I don't think igniting a family soap opera is ever a good idea.

The point is to relax and recharge...and enjoy yourself... NOT gonna happen at uncle biggoty's
So blow it off.
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CaitJ

Quote from: Britney_413 on December 22, 2010, 02:38:41 AM
I'm getting closer to being 30 years old and while I'm still young I'm getting old enough that I don't have to put up with this crap.

Damn straight! I wouldn't even be engaging with this uncle in any way at that age; you're an adult.
You're way too old to be getting tied up in petty family games like this.

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tekla

If you play that card you can never unplay it, and no one will ever forgive you for it.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Britney_413

Here's how it all went. Well the rest of the family told me they were on my side. One of them also recommended I talk to him again and set up a time to talk to him about this person to person. Personally, I thought this was ridiculous as I don't have to explain myself. This uncle in question is someone I only see a few times per year anyway. So I called him and he said he didn't have time before Christmas. I explained to him in more detail that I am transitioning, this is the way things are, and I don't need to wait for a doctor/therapist to give me an official diagnosis. He didn't agree that I'm just born this way and thinks it is a result of confusion. I told him I disagreed and luckily it never turned into an argument. He stated that he will not turn anyone away on Christmas but did ask me again to please "tone it down" to avoid "any contravesy." I was already planning on doing this so I re-stated again that I would tone it down but only as much as I deem reasonable and possible.

My mother asked me then not to wear a bra. Now she is the one who has been most on my side and still is. The problem with her is she is really shy to arguments and confrontations and stated that since he is not turning anyone away, that I should do this for her sake. I still didn't agree but told her I'd consider it. Anyway, on Christmas morning, I debated how I was going to go. I was picking up a coffee at Starbucks on the way (yes they were open) so I was not going to completely give in or play any more games. As I was trying some different size bras on I noticed that the smallest one did not look 100% natural. I gave it a stab and put on a feminine (tight t-shirt) without a bra (which is what they all wanted). Funny thing is that it looked more natural because I do have natural breasts although extremely small ones (36AA) but feminine nipples as well as slight cleavage. Since the shirt was black the nipples would not be that visible through the shirt. I tested this in front of the mirror and it was a bit interesting because I still saw a female in multiple ways but just a female with a flatter chest than most but not different than some genetic girls I've seen. So I went that way and there were no issues. One of the other ones who has been supporting me did call me by my female middle name (which has not been legally changed yet). One of my gifts included nail polish of various colors. The family was still using male pronouns but I haven't started enforcing that yet anyway as I have been full time only recently.

I did make it very clear to my mother that will be no more "toning down" because I've already come out to all of them, they all know the story, and they all have seen me presenting female twice now although to a very subtle degree. The next time there is a big meetup among family could well be months from now by which time my name should already be legally changed and there may already be some changes from HRT (which is supposed to start in January). From this point forward, there will be no negotiations. If I don't carry a purse or wear makeup or have tiny boobs, that is because I wanted to look that way, not because someone told me to. Sometimes I do and don't wear makeup and sometimes I pad my chest bigger or smaller than other times anyway. The point is that it is my decision and no one else's. I can understand that it takes some time for others to adjust. Well they've seen me now and they have more than enough time (months) to get ready for more changes to come. Thanks for everyone's support.
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Melody Maia

Good for you Britney. I'm glad you were able to be you and it didn't get ugly. I had a situation where we hosted a family Christmas Eve party and only half the people there knew about my ongoing transition. I wore my girl jeans and a button down guys shirt because I had nothing girlier that would have been appropriate. I felt like I was betraying myself in a way and was uncomfortable throughout the night. I still had a good time, but I was definitely not full-on me. This won't happen again.
and i know that i'm never alone
and i know that my heart is my home
Every missing piece of me
I can find in a melody



O
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Cindy

I came to Susan's in I think 2008, a frightened 'boy' not knowing where to go. How life has changed :laugh:

It is so funny to listen to so many girls going 'half way' this Christmas, I do not mean the rudely BTW. I was the same for various reasons.

Goddess what a year

Cindy
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Britney_413

Part of what I've noticed with transition is that while it seems like a long process to us, it seems to be all of the sudden for family. That is because often by the time we come out about it, we are already full time, or on HRT, or have made other serious changes. Not that it is a bad thing. After all, we determine how to live our lives, not allow others to make decisions for us. I assume it is not uncommon that by the time a TS tells his/her employer, the issues have reached a critical point. Same with family. While it seems relatively short to my family now, they all know, and therefore there are no excuses with regards to starting to adjust. I won't demand being called by a proper name and gender yet although I will remind them. On the other hand when it comes to public outings (such as a restaurant) I will insist on this. I don't want to be outed to strangers due to their inability to properly identify me.
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Cindy

Quote from: Britney_413 on December 28, 2010, 12:57:16 AM
Part of what I've noticed with transition is that while it seems like a long process to us, it seems to be all of the sudden for family. That is because often by the time we come out about it, we are already full time, or on HRT, or have made other serious changes. Not that it is a bad thing. After all, we determine how to live our lives, not allow others to make decisions for us. I assume it is not uncommon that by the time a TS tells his/her employer, the issues have reached a critical point. Same with family. While it seems relatively short to my family now, they all know, and therefore there are no excuses with regards to starting to adjust. I won't demand being called by a proper name and gender yet although I will remind them. On the other hand when it comes to public outings (such as a restaurant) I will insist on this. I don't want to be outed to strangers due to their inability to properly identify me.

Totally agree Britney, but we are so far ahead of friend, family and colleagues that we can place this whole issue into their faces and sort of say 'deal with it'. And that can be very difficult; remember they have not had the pre-warning (not sure if that is the adjective I want) when we confront people with; Hi I'm Cindy you used to know me as Joe. In future I will be addressed as female and treated as one.

We do need to give them some breathing time, and some rules about how we want, have to be,  to be treated.

Cindy
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