'S/he'

[Rock_chick]

I think it would be best to remember that transgender is a bit of a catchall term and covers I wide spectrum of gender identities. What fits you, most certainly does not fit me etc. etc.

Just try and bare that in mind before trying to define a very broad label.

[Fancyrabbit]

Um, this is so off-base that I really can't think what to reply.

I'm just looking at things as a whole...objectively...completely free of bias in either way (it is meaningless to me whatever label is attributed).

Here is how I am thinking.

You have a person who is born male. Genetically.

Mentally, they find themselves female.

Hormonally and surgically, they transform their bodies to come closer to that of their mental state.

Genetically, in reality, they exist as "male" (drop all the baggage you might have with that word, I am simply using it to describe the very basic genetic label which never is changed, we simply do not have the technology to). While everything else may say female, they are still (as a whole) a combination of male and female. Often, physically the combination is still very much there as well (beyond simply genetics), bone structure having "set" already through their birth sex or other changes which have happened.

It seems very straight forward. It is just how things are. If this is upsetting, I can only guess it is from placing WAYYY too much importance on the words "male" and "female". As you know, because your genes may be male....it doesn't mean you need to act, think, or be anything close to our current societies base stereotype of the word.

Mind / Body / Genes...these are all different aspects of a person. I really don't get where the problem is?

[Colleen Ireland]

If this is upsetting, I can only guess it is from placing WAYYY too much importance on the words "male" and "female".  Mind / Body / Genes...these are all different aspects of a person. I really don't get where the problem is?

Yes, that's the problem.  Rabbit, words DO matter - they DO mean something.  And not like Humpty Dumpty, who used a word to mean exactly what he wanted it to mean.  Words mean things TO PEOPLE.  I have the right to ask you to refer to me as "She" and "Her".  You have the responsibility to honor my wishes.  That is what we call society.  If you do not honor my wishes, we won't get along.  Pure and simple.  If we don't get along, don't expect me to converse with you.  If you insist on doing things your way, expect to get ignored, smited, or worse.  You're new here.  Perhaps you should mostly lurk for a while and get the lay of the land.

[Renate]

Is there some point to this, Rabbit?

Let's get down to brass tacks.
I say that I am a woman.
Are you trying to contradict me?

I don't want or need your wishy-washy categories.
If you want them for yourself, that's fine.
Just don't shove them on me.

[Fancyrabbit]

You seem to be confused.

I have no problem calling people by whatever they want to be called. Actually, I rarely really address people directly when I post (because I am just speaking in general or addressing the issue / idea) and I don't really pay attention to who says what (because, again, not really about getting personal... it is about talking about the ideas and communicating on the subject of whatever the thread is).

In this case, the OP was having problems that the rest of the world wasn't sure what to call her. Which, really isn't surprising (as most peoples idea of the trans community are the drag queens in gay pride parades or porno.

While, the idea that trans people should be able to seemlessly slip into society under whatever gender they decide to present at that time... well, the rest of the world isn't with you there. An individual may believe that they are female and that is end of discussion, sadly there is an entire world who would like to chat a bit more about that. And really, it's perfectly reasonable for them to be a bit confused (they don't really teach this stuff in school).

Even on these forums you have trans people scratching their heads on what their kids or friends or partners should call them / introduce them as. So, nope, everything isn't really figured out.

Again, the answer is logically simple (though, i have a feeling we left logic land a while ago). The language is simply missing a few words to better communicate what this certain type of person is (again, that is what language does, it describes things so we are on the same page).

I am starting to think there are some other issues that need to be looked at other than just a simple language confusion.

[Fancyrabbit]

Let's get down to brass tacks.
I say that I am a woman.
Are you trying to contradict me?

If I were a person EXACTLY like you (in all aspects), except I called myself something else... would you try to contradict me?

Or, breaking it down to a more simplified state.

If you were a box, and called yourself a box... but next to you was a box, which called itself a boox... well, I'm sure you can see how confusion would tend to stem from that in the world of boxes.

If everyone is left to pick what THEY want to be called, well, everyone continues to get insulted from innocent mis-naming and everyone is constantly confused.

Now, notice I'm not really taking a stance on "THIS IS THE NAME YOU NEED TO BE!!!!!!!". Simply saying, things are a bit confusing in the entire name department...and it seems to be causing everyone a lot of grief / stress / issues (both inside the trans community and outside of it). Is this ok? Is this just "how it needs to be"?

[Colleen Ireland]

Thanks for clarifying, Rabbit, I'm afraid I was indeed taking your comments personally, even though they weren't addressed to me specifically.  I appreciate your ability to discuss these concepts rationally and objectively, HOWEVER, let me be clear that this IS in fact a very highly emotionally-charged issue for most (if not all) of us.  I agree with you that "the world" isn't ready to just validate us at our whim, but in my personal experience, most people are at least willing to go along with us if we pass at least "pretty well".  Especially if we present ourselves with confidence and no ambiguity.  And I think that's the key - confidence and lack of ambiguity (unless ambiguity is what you're about) will get you quite far in this world.

That being said, there are lots of situations where one MUST be "out" as trans, and in those situations, RESPECT is called for.  For example, I currently present as male almost everywhere.  Sometime this year, I expect to begin living as female full time, which means I expect to transition in place at my job.  I expect to be treated with respect and dignity, and not to have people questioning my gender.  I do realize there will be "uncomfortable moments" at first, but I do expect that I and my workmates will eventually settle into a new relationship, and they will address me as Colleen and use "She" and "Her", at least within my hearing.  If not, there will be problems, I assure you.

[Rock_chick]

I'm just looking at things as a whole...objectively...completely free of bias in either way (it is meaningless to me whatever label is attributed).

Language doesn't work like that I'm afraid, words are not mere abstracts, the have power and gravitas. They can define, control and even wound. You can apply objectivity to the introspection you wish to apply to your own feelings, and this is good. What is not good is taking the label transgendered, which is already a charged word, and applying the results of that introspection universally. No matter what your intentions you will raise hackles because as you have so rightly observed it is a label, and a particularly othering label at that. As you may have noticed people don't like to be made to feel different (some of us don't mind, or indeed revel in it, depends on the person).

I kind of see what you're trying to do, buy deconstructing the label you a seeking to reduce the power of the label, but unfortunately the dominant discourse (i.e. the idea of rigid gender binaries) makes the label both powerful and inevitable. By all means deconstruct the label and break it's power over you, but while the dominant discourse remains as it is be careful making universal statements.

[Janet_Girl]

A 3rd gender is already used in other parts of the world (india and thailand i believe, though they have their own issues... it is at least a socially integrated category).

And if you look at those countries, this third gender is extremely discriminated against.  The only work they can find is sex work.  No thank you.

So out of the 32 chromosomes, you are going to select one to determine if a person is male or female.  What about the Intersexed.  Men with XX, or women with XY.  And what of those that are XXY.  Your argument does not hold water.  It is just as bad as selecting Bible verses to prove a point.  It does not work.

I am not a label I am not a box.  I am a woman.

And before this gets into a major mess.

If you disagree with transgender individuals, or activities which cross gender boundaries take your arguments to a more appropriate web site.

Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

[CaitJ]

I'm just curious, why would you find it offensive to belong to a "3rd gender" category? Nothing of how you think or act or dress would need to change, it is simply defining what you are for better understanding (which is pretty much the entire job of words, to communicate).

I can't answer that, because I don't find it offensive.
It simply doesn't fit. I don't feel like a member of a third gender. I am one of the binary genders - female.
'Female' defines what I am very nicely and I don't think any other term would be accurate.

A 3rd gender is already used in other parts of the world (india and thailand i believe, though they have their own issues... it is at least a socially integrated category).

I live in New Zealand, which has a high percentage of Third Gender identifying Polynesian people - mostly Fa'afafine and Whakawahine. They do not identify as transgender.
Have a watch of this episode of Wero:
http://www.maoritelevision.com/default.aspx?tabid=75&pid=7754&EPID=12329
Phylesha explains in the clip what being Fa'afafine is about - it's not the same as being a western trans woman. The whole Fa'afafine culture is VERY different to white transsexual culture, which is why I don't identify as third gender.
My interview is about 10 minutes from the end of the Wero episode and the differences to my views and Phylesha's views become very evident.
I hope you watch the video and get some actual insight into a culture in which Third Gender people opperate.

I could go into the reasons that needing to define trans people is important (such as dating), but... you already know all that.
Basically, the entire reason would be to not mislead others. If you are on a dating site and someone looks at your profile saying you are a woman, chances are they might have issue with that when you start getting to know eachother (having extra bits in bed is a big tipoff for the pre-op people). Unless you think it makes more sense to always have  to "clear things up" as you get to know someone. Always needing to add in the fine-print at some point with people.

I'm both post-op as well as engaged to be married, so this is not an issue for me.
However, thus does not mean it WOULD be an issue if I were single, pre-op and looking. Everyone has a different approach to relationships, trans or cis. You don't get to decide the best way for someone to date and what information is relevant to the other person. Disclosure is up to the individual. Not you.

The only issue with a 3rd gender category is the entire dynamic of "stealth" goes away. Which (in our current world) is kind of dangerous sometimes (so I completely understand the practical NEED to blend in with male or female). But, in places like the forum you are at (where they already know what you are), the need to do that goes away and you can simply be what you are (which, again, is lacking fitting words in our language).

What? I don't like this 'what you are' business. What I am foremost is a geek. After that I am my partner's future wife, then I am an artist, a gamer, a writer, etc, etc. Somewhere near the end of my list is the 'transgender' part. I don't think it is a defining or particularly important characteristic.
I think you're awfully new to all this and would do well to lurk and read for a while, to get up to speed with how most transgender people operate.
Because you're coming across like a cis person spouting their favourite TG theories and expecting to be right because you're cis.

[CaitJ]

I'm just looking at things as a whole...objectively...completely free of bias in either way (it is meaningless to me whatever label is attributed).
Here is how I am thinking.
You have a person who is born male. Genetically.

Problem one:
No. You have a person who was assigned the sex 'male' at birth because of the configuration of their genitals. No genetic testing was done at birth to determine what configuration their genes are in. Their sex is allocated purely on a brief visual examination.
That is not sufficient to know what is sequenced into someone's genetic code.
Have you seen your karyotype results? Have you been karyotyped? No? Neither have I.
I don't know which chromosomes I have, any more than you do.
'Genetically' you are absolutely clueless about a person, based on the sex the doctor assigned, visually, at birth.
So STFU with you 'genetics' bull.

It seems very straight forward.

Because you are ignorant.

Mind / Body / Genes...these are all different aspects of a person. I really don't get where the problem is?

The problem is that you are ignorant.

[CaitJ]

You seem to be confused.

Says the 'trangenderist' who barely knows anything about transgender issues.

While, the idea that trans people should be able to seemlessly slip into society under whatever gender they decide to present at that time... well, the rest of the world isn't with you there.

Actually the world is with me. When I walk down the street, buy an icecream from the 7/11, buy clothes or go to a film, people think that I am female.
There isn't any reason for them to assume that I am anything else.

An individual may believe that they are female and that is end of discussion, sadly there is an entire world who would like to chat a bit more about that. And really, it's perfectly reasonable for them to be a bit confused (they don't really teach this stuff in school).

I'm sure white people were confused the first time they saw a black man.
It's wonderful that the 'entire world' would like to 'chat a bit more about that', but it's not my job to educate anyone if I don't want to.
And for frack's sake, there is a big mighty Internet out there teeming with information. It's not hard to find out what you want to know.

Even on these forums you have trans people scratching their heads on what their kids or friends or partners should call them / introduce them as. So, nope, everything isn't really figured out.

That's because these people are resisting adjusting to the person's correct gender. The trans person knows what they want to be called. They DO have everything figured out. It's the cis people causing the issue.
I really don't like your cis-centric reasoning and transphobic commentary.

Again, the answer is logically simple (though, i have a feeling we left logic land a while ago). The language is simply missing a few words to better communicate what this certain type of person is (again, that is what language does, it describes things so we are on the same page).

The answer is logically simple: use a language that doesn't have gendered pronouns. English is crap.
That's the logically consistent answer to your problem.

And I say your problem, because I'm perfectly happy being referred to as female.
By everyone; friends, kids, colleagues, partner, doctor, cat, goldfish.
The only reason why you would want to define trans people as 'other' is to OTHER them.
Which is extremely transphobic.

[azSam]

The only time I think the "other" gender is appropriate is for someone who identifies as "genderqueer" or something similar. Where they identify as neither male nor female. Sort of the androgynous gender.

I identify as female. I want to be referred to as female, with all of the female pronouns. I do not fit into a 3rd gender category because I already identify well within the female category.

[rejennyrated]

  Fancyrabbit

If you wish to continue as a member of this forum for very much longer I would cordially suggest that you do some rapid and radical rethinking on your attitude.

Everyone here has the right to self define as they choose. That right simply IS NOT up for discussion or debate. To attempt to do otherwise is effectively a violation of Forum rule 9. "If you disagree with transgender individuals, or activities which cross gender boundaries take your arguments to a more appropriate web site."

No further action will be taken by me on this occasion however I would like to suggest that you seriously reflect on what I have said as future pursuit of this line will undoubtedly lead to a more robust response. 

[Janet_Girl]

 

Posting is a privilege, not a right. We reserve the rights to refuse or remove access by anyone to this site for any reason, and to remove any posting from any forum for any reason.

If you disagree with transgender individuals, or activities which cross gender boundaries take your arguments to a more appropriate web site.

Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

In that this discussion has when far afield of the OP.  It is time to put it to bed.

The thread is here by locked.