Things that happen before you're born ...

[Alex201]

I am actually a faternal twin. The doctors actually thought my sister was dead because she hardly moved. I on the other hand was very active in the womb. It shows in our personality even to this day.

How does this fit in with the topic? Idk...just thought I'd share.

[regan]

And yes, there have been individuals with CAIS who identify as male. Look here: http://www.springerlink.com/content/4w515837q0821487/ as well as here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20358272

There isn't enough data presented in the second link to offer a dissenting opinion.  However, in the first case study, the parental influence can not be discounted.  Just as some parents used negative reinforcement or simply reinforced the assigned gender role of their child to "cure" their gender variance, positive reinforcement by the parents has to have some impact on the continued gender variance of the child.

No doubt the child in the first case study expressed a male gender identity, the overt approval of the parents certainly encouraged the cross-gender behavior to continue.  While not entirely motivated by a need for parental approval, that influence can't be completely ruled out.

[insideontheoutside]

There isn't enough data presented in the second link to offer a dissenting opinion.  However, in the first case study, the parental influence can not be discounted.  Just as some parents used negative reinforcement or simply reinforced the assigned gender role of their child to "cure" their gender variance, positive reinforcement by the parents has to have some impact on the continued gender variance of the child.

No doubt the child in the first case study expressed a male gender identity, the overt approval of the parents certainly encouraged the cross-gender behavior to continue.  While not entirely motivated by a need for parental approval, that influence can't be completely ruled out.

I don't have CAIS but  as far as I was aware people have studied how socialization, etc can influence gender.  "Can" being the operative word there because it doesn't seem to be a hard rule. I've personally seen too many things that don't follow the supposed rules in life to even wholeheartedly believe every study that comes out on a topic. In my own case, while growing up my parents were what I call "equal gender opportunity" - they did not push me one way or the other and honestly I think that was very smart of them. I had girl toys and boy toys. I was encouraged to try all sorts of things but my parents let me make my own mind up. At 2 years old I was making decisions that, in a round about way, had to do with gender (rejecting playing with dolls and instead deciding I wanted to play out in the dirt with army men for instance). Also at 2 years old I had told my mom that I did not feel comfortable in a dress. My parents said I also kept bringing up the fact that I had "missing parts" and I would point to the crotch area of a doll. That's not exactly "normal" behavior for a 2 year old. I was also an only child so I didn't have any siblings to influence me. I lived in a somewhat rural neighborhood and there were not kids my age close by either. I did go to preschool and I remember some early incidents there where I was just being myself and the teacher thought it was "odd behavior" for a "little girl". That's pretty much how it's always been though. So in my particular case, something IS different and I really do believe that whatever happened in the womb IS the reason for it, not parental influence or socialization.

[regan]

Herein lies the "nature vs.  nuture" argument.  I have always believed its not one or the other, but both.  As in your nature has to be nutured or something like that.  Children self-express (announce?) their gender variance when they begin to understand the difference between the genders, until then they are just being themselves as they know themselves to be.

The internet is full of stories of children who were both indulged in their cross gender behavior and consistently showed a preference for cross gender expression just as much as gender variant children who adapted their gender specific surroundings in order to express their gender variance (ie male bodied children who used sheets to form dresses or skirts for themselves)

[trnsboi]

I don't have CAIS but  as far as I was aware people have studied how socialization, etc can influence gender.  "Can" being the operative word there because it doesn't seem to be a hard rule. I've personally seen too many things that don't follow the supposed rules in life to even wholeheartedly believe every study that comes out on a topic. In my own case, while growing up my parents were what I call "equal gender opportunity" - they did not push me one way or the other and honestly I think that was very smart of them. I had girl toys and boy toys. I was encouraged to try all sorts of things but my parents let me make my own mind up. At 2 years old I was making decisions that, in a round about way, had to do with gender (rejecting playing with dolls and instead deciding I wanted to play out in the dirt with army men for instance). Also at 2 years old I had told my mom that I did not feel comfortable in a dress. My parents said I also kept bringing up the fact that I had "missing parts" and I would point to the crotch area of a doll. That's not exactly "normal" behavior for a 2 year old. I was also an only child so I didn't have any siblings to influence me. I lived in a somewhat rural neighborhood and there were not kids my age close by either. I did go to preschool and I remember some early incidents there where I was just being myself and the teacher thought it was "odd behavior" for a "little girl". That's pretty much how it's always been though. So in my particular case, something IS different and I really do believe that whatever happened in the womb IS the reason for it, not parental influence or socialization.

Just because you think your parents raised you in a "gender-neutral" manner does not mean that they did, and it does not discount the role that society plays in reinforcing gender. Even the most liberal parents give their children gender-specific names and use gender-specific pronouns to refer not only to the child but to themselves and others. And even if parents were to do their best to raise a child "gender-neutral" you must remember that children do not live in bubbles, and neither does anyone else. Children--and the rest of us--are constantly being inundated with images of and messages about normative, binary gender.

Furthermore, you present your story as though there is something inherently "masculine" about not wanting to wear dresses or play with dolls, when in fact there is nothing inherently gendered about anything--especially inanimate objects. In Victorian times, the color pink was reserved for boys. And up until the 1960s or 1970s baby boys wore dresses (in fact, up until the early 20th century boys would wear dresses into early childhood until "breeching", at which time they would start wearing short pants). Mayan men wore more make-up and jewelry than Mayan women. Men in most cultures wore skirts up until very recently, and many still do. So if you had an aversion to wearing so-called "girls' clothes" it was because of the connotation (ie: you learned to associate it with femininity), not because such clothing is inherently feminine.

[insideontheoutside]

Just because you think your parents raised you in a "gender-neutral" manner does not mean that they did, and it does not discount the role that society plays in reinforcing gender. Even the most liberal parents give their children gender-specific names and use gender-specific pronouns to refer not only to the child but to themselves and others. And even if parents were to do their best to raise a child "gender-neutral" you must remember that children do not live in bubbles, and neither does anyone else. Children--and the rest of us--are constantly being inundated with images of and messages about normative, binary gender.

Furthermore, you present your story as though there is something inherently "masculine" about not wanting to wear dresses or play with dolls, when in fact there is nothing inherently gendered about anything--especially inanimate objects. In Victorian times, the color pink was reserved for boys. And up until the 1960s or 1970s baby boys wore dresses (in fact, up until the early 20th century boys would wear dresses into early childhood until "breeching", at which time they would start wearing short pants). Mayan men wore more make-up and jewelry than Mayan women. Men in most cultures wore skirts up until very recently, and many still do. So if you had an aversion to wearing so-called "girls' clothes" it was because of the connotation (ie: you learned to associate it with femininity), not because such clothing is inherently feminine.

Of course very young children can know there is a difference in people simple by knowing they have a mom and also a dad. Parents can say things in passing or do things that reinforce roles (eg. "that's what daddys do ... that's what momies do ..." ... referring to others as a man or a woman, boy or a girl, etc). But I'm also not applying any of this to anyone else BUT me in that last post and theorizing about my own upbringing and consequent line of thinking. The only generalization I'm making is that even through studies, there can be some wild cards and as far as gender and the brain and body go I really don't feel science has all the answers. Too many variables throw off the experiment.

The only inherent gendered thing about dresses and dolls is the way American (and a few others) culture puts emphasis on them. I'm well aware of some other culture's (both past and present) customs as well (I was going for a cultural anthropology major for a short time in college). But I guess I should be giving myself more credit for figuring out all these gender connotations at the tender age of 2. Most kids do fit a gender binary from early on - exhibiting certain behaviors, preferences, etc. Was it then the fault of my parents for even allowing male-associated (by society) toys, ideas, clothing, etc. into my world and me latching on to that? Personally, I don't buy that.

You seem to be implying that I'm saying I'm "more trans" or "more male" or something. Which is not what the case. In fact I reject the label "trans". To me, that's something made up by psychologists to explain an otherwise natural (and by that I mean that it seems to occur in human nature) occurrence, that can then be a diagnoses and treated as a disorder/abnormality. That's my personal viewpoint. I only started this thread to think aloud after learning some information about my past and the "side effects" (or results) of a number of variables (both external and internal) that happen in the womb. Consequently, it might lead to explaining some of the differences I have from the so-called average person that sees themselves as the same gender as their biological body. Some others might feel that way to. Some others might not.

[ALX]

Yeah I think you're right it does take both nature and nurture..
It's also easy for people to have a point of view and be blinded to other possibilities.
I've seen my share of not so great things so when I had trouble in school they blamed my past.
As it turns out I'm dyslexic. When I learned about dyslexia I had a "no duh" feeling, it should have been obvious, but I actually kind of understand why they overlooked it. It's very human, and a little shortsighted...
Explaining our complexity with only one factor is a bit shortsighted too, doesn't mean there is no truth in it, just that that is just one little piece of the puzzle.... 

[LordKAT]

Why do you believe you have a 'default female gender identity'?

[Darner]

I was raised gender-neutral, both my parents have more opposite-sex traits than their own but they have no problems with their genitals. This is why I never thought anything was wrong with me until I started to use my genitals in interaction with other people.
But my pre-birth problems were also there, similar to most of the thread (obviously there's something there). Somewhere in the 6th week of pregnancy, my mother gained a lot of stress that stayed there until my birth - Chernobil explosion and all the media that were telling pregnant women how everything will be wrong with their children. That was especially stressful for her because she didn't want me that much (I understand her background story, so I don't take it personally) and it would be really bad for her if I would be handicapped. She said she was crying of fear through the whole pregnancy so I guess that would be a pretty strong factor for hormone mistakes during my development.

[Berren]

This thread is very interesting.
I'm the youngest out of 5 children, I have three sisters and one brother, though my brother is deceased (not due to any illness or pregnancy-related thing).
I was the biggest out of all of my sisters, I weighed 7 pounds and 4 ounces, whereas my sisters all weighed under 7 pounds (5 pounds 10 ounces, 6 pounds and 6 pounds and 2 ounces). My brother weighed in at 7 pounds and 10 ounces. I think I was born about a day before the due date, and from what I know my mum was under a fair amount of stress a lot of the time. She said I wasn't born with any sex ambiguity, and she wasn't taking any medication to prevent miscarriages or the like.
She did however have cervical cancer about a year before she was pregnant with me (she got part of her cervix removed before it spread), and she thought she wouldn't be able to have any more children after that. She has said that she always thought she was going to have a baby boy and she was rather surprised when they said it was a girl.

I'm wondering if cancer could have anything to do with it? As far as I know that was the only reproductive-related thing she had to get treated around the time I was conceived and born. Even if it doesn't, it's still quite interesting reading all of this thread.