SRS but live as male for short time.

[rejennyrated]

And that's where the questions lead: is this person dysphoric about their genitals or do they want them removed because they consider that penises and testicles are inherently male?

A very good point indeed, and of course as that is also really precisely the point of the RLE, in essence we are all converging on the same point from slightly differing trajectories.

[spacial]

And that's where the questions lead: is this person dysphoric about their genitals or do they want them removed because they consider that penises and testicles are inherently male?

This person tends to use the term dysmorphic. Not because she has any real problem with dysphoria, but because her problem is with the physical feature that has poisoned her body and dictated a social role that she finds almost impossible to furfil.

This person has quite a lot of dysphoria, but has long since accepted that this is caused by multipul issues, not least, her own failure to properly manage her emotions.

This person, strangely enough, has few illusions that, dealing with her dysmorphia as she wishes, will lead to any sort of carthsis, or ephany. Life will continue much as it is. But this person can see out the remainder as a whole person, rather than as a freak with a smelly, ugly bit.

[CaitJ]

I fully support you in this; as you know, I'm the first to yell "MY BODY, MY CHOICE!" when people try to gate-keep and otherwise impede surgeries.
If Cat Man and Lizard Man are allowed to do such extensive surgical modifications without psych evals, then why aren't we?
(Which poses an interesting question: will Lizard Man have his penis turned into a cloaca?)

[Simone Louise]

First, a minor point, for which I apologize, but I two people have used the word "dispassionate", and I am curious if that is the word you wanted. My dictionary defines the word as:

not influenced by strong emotion, and so able to be rational and impartial : she dealt with life's disasters in a calm, dispassionate way.

If you're a woman already, why do you need the 'ugly bit' removed?
Genitalia shouldn't be gendered by appearance. A woman can have a penis. A man can have a vagina. Your penis is female. If you can accept that all the rest of your presentation is female, then why not your genitals?

Vexing, you asked a question that I wrestle with. What I want for SRS is the complete system: vagina--yes, but also ovaries and uterus. Let my body produce my hormones naturally.

And for other surgery, beyond the nose job, I would like wider hips and straighter legs, possibly toed inward, rather than out.

But I, too, am a woman now, a male-bodied woman, but I will always be, to a significant extent, a male-bodied woman.

What about that "ugly bit". That ugly bit gave me four children, I love deeply, and regret not at all. My wife, partner, significant other, and closest, dearest friend likes that ugly bit and wants to continue to use it. I don't want a new partner of either sex. She is OK with my GID, but opposes SRS and RLE. Otherwise, she is willing to make accommodations, though she doesn't understand why anyone would want to have to wear a bra.

And, finally, like Spacial, my inner woman is an individual. Like my wife (and my ex-wife), I am not into makeup, though I do study the magazine articles. In fact, I am not a very girly girl, at all. Jewelry is unimportant. Pierced anything is not for me. Nor are high heels. I don't frequent bars. I am an inept dancer (though I would like to try following, rather than leading).

If am am a stereotype, I guess I am the little, old lady in tennis shoes who is passionate about feminism and environmental issues and a member of the League of Women Voters. Indeed, I was an auxiliary member of the League before men were admitted as full members. The local newspaper interviewed me when I became the first male member of the League in our town.

So I feel that what I need to work on, with the help of my therapist, is how to live most fully as the woman I am in the body I was given. Spacial, I don't know whether I have helped or hurt your argument; I do hope you get everything you need.

S

[CaitJ]

First, a minor point, for which I apologize, but I two people have used the word "dispassionate", and I am curious if that is the word you wanted. My dictionary defines the word as:

"not influenced by strong emotion, and so able to be rational and impartial : she dealt with life's disasters in a calm, dispassionate way."

How are you able to accurately divine a persons emotional state via plain text?

[spacial]

Spacial, I don't know whether I have helped or hurt your argument; I do hope you get everything you need.

S

Simone Louise.

Thank you so much for asking and the consideration.

To be quite honest, I'm really past the point of winning in that way. I've known who I am for so long.

Like others here, as a young child, I would wake up and gingerly put my hand between my legs, just to see if, by some chance, it had gone away in the night.

I much have been one of those rather determined children. I had some plan to grow up, leave home, get a job and an appartment and start wearing a dress. I also intended moving well away from anyone I knew, not because I didn't want them to know, but because I didn't want them to stop me. I daydreamed that, after I was settled as a woman, they would come to visit and be unable to do anything.

Life has a way of popping childish bubbles. Reality bites. But my ambition remains.

As I've gotten older and obligations have been added to pressures, I've had to rely upon my mind more than my body. I sometimes walk down the road or even when I'm working, imagining I'm physically female and that other accept this.

Susans' has been quite important for a number of reasons. Firstly, learning so much. I really didn't know about female hormones. I knew what there were, of course. I knew that post op transgender people took them I knew that some, but not all transgender people look pretty female. But I've learnt the astonishing changes that can come from them now. Looking at some of the older members here, you can see women.

Another aspect of Susans' for me at least, has been the amazing effect of actually saying things. Even being able to say, I am a woman is so cathartic. It's like being able to finally reveal a secret that's been kept hidden for so long. It's competely diffrent from being on some other web site and presenting as female. There, I need to maintain a lie.

I find myself, with a slightly different set of ambitions than many others here, simply because, I no-longer feel any desperate need to appear as a female. I am and if others don't like or accept that, that is their problem. When I was younger I would have dearly loved to appear female. I would especially have loved to present as female when I was nursing. I could have been a great nurse.

But I do, so much want to be rid of the ugly bit. Until recently, it was probably more out of resentment for what it has done to me. But on a psychological level, that would have been a treasure chest of 'issues'. Now, I realise just how much difference, getting rid of it would make, my ambition has a rational aspect.

But I really respect the feelings and ambitions of others. One thing that 50+ years of being a female, whose life is dominated by an ugly growth has taught me is, each of us has ambitions and no matter how different thay may be from our own, each deserves respect.

[CaitJ]

I find myself, with a slightly different set of ambitions than many others here, simply because, I no-longer feel any desperate need to appear as a female. I am and if others don't like or accept that, that is their problem. When I was younger I would have dearly loved to appear female. I would especially have loved to present as female when I was nursing. I could have been a great nurse.

You have never been anything but 110% female in my mind's eye.

[Simone Louise]

I much have been one of those rather determined children. I had some plan to grow up, leave home, get a job and an appartment and start wearing a dress. I also intended moving well away from anyone I knew, not because I didn't want them to know, but because I didn't want them to stop me. I daydreamed that, after I was settled as a woman, they would come to visit and be unable to do anything.

When I was young, living in the second city, I dreamed of living in the woods, just me and my friends, the animals. It would have been like being Snow White, minus the dwarves, though I don't remember anything about clothing.

Later, I was determined to become an astronaut. Exploring space would be so big a project, that the US and USSR would be forced to cooperate, and the world would come to know peace. I wanted to be a pioneer, setting up the first permanent settlement on Mars, which would be governed compassionately, democratically, and with respect for individual differences. I did design clothes for this venture. I would wear a long-sleeved white shirt with puffy translucent sleeves, a bright colored tunic, knee britches, long stockings, and buckled shoes.

Among my favorite movies, ever since I saw them first run, were Gigi and My Fair Lady. In my imagination, someone would come along and make me into a proper lady.

Susan's has made a big difference in my life, too.

S

[Simone Louise]

How are you able to accurately divine a persons emotional state via plain text?

Sorry for the delay. I didn't divine anyone's emotional state. It merely seemed incongruous to suggest that someone was a skilled debater, intellectually dishonest, should run for political office--and was uninfluenced by emotion, rational, and impartial.

Btw I was a debater for my congregation's youth group. We debated another congregation 250 miles away on the subject: "Should Judaism have a creed?". I lost that debate in spectacular fashion with a passionate defense of the right of Jews to have Christmas trees. Several years later, a spectator I met in college remembered me.

S

[CaitJ]

Sorry for the delay. I didn't divine anyone's emotional state. It merely seemed incongruous to suggest that someone was a skilled debater, intellectually dishonest, should run for political office--and was uninfluenced by emotion, rational, and impartial.

S

So what you're saying essentially is that no person can possess these qualities? Or just me?

[Simone Louise]

So what you're saying essentially is that no person can possess these qualities? Or just me?

I simply asked whether that was the intended word.

S

[CaitJ]

I simply asked whether that was the intended word.

S

Sorry, I don't follow. Where was the 'incongruity' that you mentioned?

[Simone Louise]

Sorry, I don't follow. Where was the 'incongruity' that you mentioned?

I expect debaters, lawyers addressing a jury, and politicians to speak with passion, controlled passion, but passion nonetheless. I do not expect them to be impartial, emotionless observers when acting in that role.

S

[Sean]

I am just wondering if anyone has or know of anyone whom has gone through srs but continued to work as male.
FYI i am 37 and in a highly visible carrear and have only 8 years till i can retire, my sister and mother both are small breasted A cups so i doubt my development will be much especially with my age. I have discussed the rtl with my dr and she feels the rtl is important and i agree.But i am in a special circumstance and was looking for a president to go by for some reassurance. i and 5"7 good height but overwieght @ 241 though i am dropping faster now that i gave up the mt dew. just looking for some helpful advice that is all..........jessi

This thread has gone off on an interesting tangent. I want to comment back for the OP, though:

Removing a penis is about the most awful thing anyone can do if they value having a penis. People can call it an "ugly bit" but that doesn't change the fact that the existence or lack of this body part really, really matters in society - socially, legally, culturally, etc.

The fact that having a penis can be just as awful for someone who possesses a "wrongful penis" is not given the same level of concern, not just because lots of people think penises are truly great, but also because once your remove a penis, you can not ever ever ever get one back. Every single erroneous removal of a penis causes significant harm. This is where the risk of threat, regrets, and more comes in. Failure to allow someone to remove a "wrongful penis" can be fixed by later on, allowing removal of this penis. So it's harm is not viewed as being as great (particularly if one is not comparing it against rates of suicide - because dead people can not LATER have a penis removed).

There is enough data now to identify the risk that someone will later regrets transition. The #1 aspect for success is having a support network, followed by factors like - not passing/fitting in as the transitioned sex. If you don't do RLE, you are not establishing the support network. You avoid coming out to people in real life. You avoid seeing how much support you truly have. This is probably the most important piece of the puzzle. Beyond that, you are not demonstrating that you can pass/fit as the transitioned sex. This is not about theatrics or even if you 'pass' nicely as natal. It's about seeing how you get on in society and making sure that YOU are healthy & ok with how you are received in the world, after you have transitioned, whether you present in a stereotypically feminine way or not.

A health care practitioner who is willing to remove your penis without seeing if you actually have the support network first is suspect. I know some people will rail against evil gatekeepers. Except health care providers act as gatekeepers every single day, because they have the ability both to heal and to do great harm. You are not the first person to have a career circumstance that suggests it makes sense to delay transitioning. While you are an individual and not a statistic, anyone who treats you without regard for the data could jeaopardize your health.

[Tippe]

A very good point indeed, and of course as that is also really precisely the point of the RLE, in essence we are all converging on the same point from slightly differing trajectories.

I'm not sure I follow you here.

Why isn't it okay if one's motivation to have surgery is to some extent a wish to comply with social norms regarding your gender?

Not complying with the norms has a prize: In my country you can't get a legal gender change without a sex change, your biological sex is exploited every now and then by a coded digit in our person registration number, I can't enter public swimming fascillities without fear or discussions, I sometimes don't feel comfortable in the feminist circles I join because of my knowledge of my body being different and the fear of an unpleasant discussion should it get discovered.
I always need to deal with issues about changing rooms when I start new clinical trainings, because some people may be uncomfortable whatever I do. For simmilar reasons I was not allowed to join a national figure skating camp. Nor a skiing trip arranged by my own class mates.
Then comes the question of dating. I've declined numerous invitations, because I would feel uncomfortable naked. When my clothes - call it identity equipment -is stripped away my identity becomes open for questions. It never is when I'm dressed. I had a relationship with a ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<- once, but she insisted I acted male in bed.

I think Isis King, the Top Model contestant, illustrated what a penis means to a womans self confidence, when she is under pressure. There was a very small reason she did fail that bikini shoot, you know!

As a transgender and queer activist I might claim: "There is more to gender than genitals!" and the like, yet I have to chose between living an endless fight against the sex roles surrounding me or just adapting and enjoying life in compliance with the gender that suits me. And as they say: Pick your fights wisely!

It seems that the women who keep their original plumbing are coincidentally often living part time as males or aren't fully assured about their position gender wise?



Tippe

[CaitJ]

I expect debaters, lawyers addressing a jury, and politicians to speak with passion, controlled passion, but passion nonetheless. I do not expect them to be impartial, emotionless observers when acting in that role.

S

Righto.

[Tippe]

If you don't do RLE, you are not establishing the support network. You avoid coming out to people in real life. You avoid seeing how much support you truly have. This is probably the most important piece of the puzzle. Beyond that, you are not demonstrating that you can pass/fit as the transitioned sex. This is not about theatrics or even if you 'pass' nicely as natal. It's about seeing how you get on in society and making sure that YOU are healthy & ok with how you are received in the world, after you have transitioned, whether you present in a stereotypically feminine way or not.

I agree with this.

Sooner or later you're going to have to confront your fears of telling your surroundings about your identity. Doing so and beginning to adapt to the gender role you're later wanting to fit into will serve you well.
You may see this as gender expression experimentation at a time, where you can relatively easy go back if it didn't suit you.
Same goes with hormones. You have about half a year to play around before any permanent changes take effect. Use it well! The more experience you get prior to surgery the better. When it's gone, it's gone, wether you like the effects of the surgery or the required hormonal threatments then. Go by reversible steps first before you opt for the irreversible ones.



Tippe

[spacial]

There is enough data now to identify the risk that someone will later regrets transition. The #1 aspect for success is having a support network, followed by factors like - not passing/fitting in as the transitioned sex. If you don't do RLE, you are not establishing the support network. You avoid coming out to people in real life. You avoid seeing how much support you truly have. This is probably the most important piece of the puzzle. Beyond that, you are not demonstrating that you can pass/fit as the transitioned sex. This is not about theatrics or even if you 'pass' nicely as natal. It's about seeing how you get on in society and making sure that YOU are healthy & ok with how you are received in the world, after you have transitioned, whether you present in a stereotypically feminine way or not.

A health care practitioner who is willing to remove your penis without seeing if you actually have the support network first is suspect. I know some people will rail against evil gatekeepers. Except health care providers act as gatekeepers every single day, because they have the ability both to heal and to do great harm. You are not the first person to have a career circumstance that suggests it makes sense to delay transitioning. While you are an individual and not a statistic, anyone who treats you without regard for the data could jeaopardize your health.

I understand your point Sean. I also accept that these are the predominant notions at this time.

My own case though is that I don't want this stuff. I never have.

I understand your points about support networks. But respectfully disagree. I would never do this or anything else, without the support of my wife and her immediate family. They are the only people who matter to me.

As far as the rest of the world is concerned, they will never see what I have inside my pants, so it really is none of their business.

I think this support network notion is from the same school of thought as the comming out for gay people. I don't accept that either.

Gay people don't need to excuse themselves and certainly not their partner. If a man, for example, gets an invation for a party with his partner and his partner is a man, then why should that be an issue? They invited someone to a party together with his partner. It really is no-one's place to judge, if that partner is a man, an elderly woman, black or someone with three legs. It's his partner.

Quite frankly, I view the whole coming out notion as treating gay people as second class. they must come out so that others can make up ther minds if they wish to associate with them.

If you invite someone to a party, you have presumably done so because you think they will fit in with the crowd and enjoy it.

But the aquiecence of much the gay community to this nonsense is perhaps indicative that many still see themselves as second class. Though, in the case of many public figures, they may be thinking of their public image, which earns them their living.

The issue of people changing their minds is a bit different. Some people get tatoos and change their minds of course. But from a medical/legal aspect, if the practitioner has satisfied themselves that the client is sane and genuinely wants a procedure, then there can be no legal recourse of they change their minds later.

I could make a comparison with circumscision. It's permanent, virtually impossible to reverse and involves removal of a healthy, functioning organ, for aesthetic reasons.

The problem with that comparison is that removal of my ugly bit is not only for aesthetic reasons, it is also to eliminate the poison which has distorted my body.

[spacial]

I agree with this.

Sooner or later you're going to have to confront your fears of telling your surroundings about your identity. Doing so and beginning to adapt to the gender role you're later wanting to fit into will serve you well.
You may see this as gender expression experimentation at a time, where you can relatively easy go back if it didn't suit you.
Same goes with hormones. You have about half a year to play around before any permanent changes take effect. Use it well! The more experience you get prior to surgery the better. When it's gone, it's gone, wether you like the effects of the surgery or the required hormonal threatments then. Go by reversible steps first before you opt for the irreversible ones.



Tippe

With respect Tippe. I have no intention of excusing myself to anyone. I won't ask permission to exist.

If, one day I decide to get a purple mohechan hair cut, a ring through my nose, wear a multicoloured, flowery shirt, bursh demem flaired trowsers and strap sandals, then that is my choice. (With the exception of the hair and the nose ring, I did once have clothes like that. Oh, for the early 70s!!  )

The only situation where your sumation may be relevant is when someone seeks to fully transision and live stealth. That is a valid choice and one which, when I was younger, I would have gone for.

But the issue there is the lifestyle the patient is seeking, not the surgery.

[spacial]

Another adition.

Something's occurred to me.

The way I've constructed the arguments above could be interperted as laying out immutable excused for not transisioning by the conventional route.

I have other issues. I thought I'd make that clear. As much as I would like to move forward in my own way and at my own pace, there are a number of factors making his impossible at this time, sadly.

Quite frankly, if all other things were equal, I would do almost anything to have my ugly bits removed. If the conventional route were the only possible option I would do that.

Seems to me that, once the op is over, I can pretty well do as I please anyway.

I'm making the point that there are other approaches which I suggest, are equally valid.