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When are we really women?

Started by Butterfly, January 14, 2011, 04:50:56 PM

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Butterfly

When are we really women?
Notes from the T Side
Posted by Elizabeth
14 January, 2011


http://ben-girl-notesfromthetside.blogspot.com/2011/01/when-are-we-really-women.html


Don't get your panties in a bunch girls it is not what you think or maybe it is but here goes.  When little girls are born they grow into women.  From childhood through their teen years and sometimes into their 20's they are still girls but eventually they are women. It is difficult to define at what moment a girl becomes a woman and some have theorized it is when a girl gets her first period to the point of assigning the arbitrary age as 18 but none of it is really true. A girl becomes a woman when she understands enough about herself and life to be classified that way by her fellow women. It is earned.
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Stephanie

#1
At the moment it feels more comfortable and right to think of myself as a girl rather than a woman.    I feel that as I haven't had any of the positive and negative life experiences that the typical woman of my age has experienced and that it would be presumptuous and false for me to say that I was a woman.   I don't think chronological age automatically grants a person manhood or womanhood,although life experience will eventually tip the balance fully towards possessing the consciousness and mindset of a man or a woman.     
I am an somewhat interesting case, outside of the family I present as male, but I am not a man.  So, does that make me a woman?   No, I am not a woman either.  So what am I?  I am a girl.   Despite being over 21 I don't feel demeaned or embarrassed by being a girl, when I am of an age to claim the title of woman.  But you'll notice I wrote 'title'.  I said nothing about possessing the substance of womanhood.  I just feel that where my mind is at and what I am experiencing now and will be experiencing for the foreseeable future, is much better and accurately described as girlhood.   Julia Serano writes in her classic book that she thought of herself as a girl for a very long time, as she felt, like I do, that at the time she simply hadn't experienced life as a woman with all it's ups and downs, to be able to say to herself that she was a woman without mental reservations.   

If you feel like me that you don't have enough experience of living and working as a female in this society, and saying to yourself that you are a woman with all the knowledge, experiences that a woman is expected to know and have undergone doesn't describe you at the moment in all honesty.   Then perhaps you might like to do as I have done and consider that girl is a more accurate description of your present state.    Please don't be put off by the dictionary description of girl as a female child.  Being a girl doesn't imply being childish or being naive about life.   I know about life as a male, so I am not going to do anything stupid, or thoughtless as a genetic girl might.   However, I have a fair amount to learn about being female and living safely and successfully as a woman that thinking of this period as my girlhood seems completely natural.   

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regan

I refer to my mom as a woman, she is in her sixties.  I tend to think of women in those terms, older.  I'm too old to be a girl, I'm in my 30s.  I'm happy to call myself female.
Our biograhies are our own and we need to accept our own diversity without being ashamed that we're somehow not trans enough.
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Stephanie

Regan I suspect that those who transition late have spent their lives conscious that they lack female life experience appropriate to their age.  Sadly, they conclude that perhaps they are really not transsexual at all or they are really crossdressers, and so the years slip away until in late middle-age they find that they cannot go on living as a man a single day more.  Had they done as I have done and thought of themselves as being a girl - however ridiculous that would have seemed - they would have realised that their lack of experience as a woman is what being a girl largely consists of.  So having realised this, thinking of themselves as a girl doesn't seem so absurd as it first seems.   Had late transitioners done this then perhaps they would have accepted their true nature much earlier, and saved themselves years of secret misery.
I know that I am female, so the only terms to describe me are woman and girl.  So am I a woman?  No for the reasons in my above post.  In this world you are either a man or a woman, a boy or a girl.   I feel that at the moment only 'girl' describes me accurately and it is a term that I am comfortable with. 
I don't intend to go around telling everyone that I am a girl.  Outside of this forum only my mother and sister know.   Interestingly when I told my sister about thinking of myself as not being 'qualified' to call myself a woman, she completely understood what I meant and agreed with it.    My mother who has always been rather cool towards my transsexuality told me that she was more comfortable thinking of me as a girl rather than a woman.  The next day she explained what she meant.  She said that something about me being a woman had always niggled her and she couldn't quite put her finger on it.   What she realised was that she felt that with me proclaiming myself a woman I was trying to claim all the rights and privileges for something that I hadn't earned.    My mother feels that it takes years to become a woman even for genetic females and she is right.   Re-classifying myself as a girl and not a woman in my mind is a great step forward in my understanding of myself and who I am.   My mother is now more accepting of my femininity.   I feel and I think that she feels that I am doing things the right way round at last.

What I am learning and experiencing now and in the future will greatly help me blend in to the world as a woman as easily and as seamlessly as possible.    It is difficult being a woman, but think how hard it will be if you try and be a girl and a woman at the same time! 

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regan

Quote from: Stephanie on January 14, 2011, 10:47:00 PM
Regan I suspect that those who transition late have spent their lives conscious that they lack female life experience appropriate to their age.  Sadly, they conclude that perhaps they are really not transsexual at all or they are really crossdressers, and so the years slip away until in late middle-age they find that they cannot go on living as a man a single day more.  Had they done as I have done and thought of themselves as being a girl - however ridiculous that would have seemed - they would have realised that their lack of experience as a woman is what being a girl largely consists of.  So having realised this, thinking of themselves as a girl doesn't seem so absurd as it first seems.   Had late transitioners done this then perhaps they would have accepted their true nature much earlier, and saved themselves years of secret misery.

Um, ok, wow.  I'm not going to turn this into a cat fight, but that alone is just um, well, arrogant.

I went back and read your intro post, as far as I can tell you're in you're early 20s which means you were born around 1990.  The internet, not as we know it now, just widespread, didn't exist until about 1994.  Back then it was largely just single page websites and they were mostly personal pages.  In that environment (and prior to it), I desperately searched for information on any aspect of transition I could find.  I spent hours at my college library pouring over every article I could find that might point me in the direction of a therapist that could help me sort out my feelings and put me on the track to hormones, surgery, etc (having read, yes an actual book, Renee Richards autobiography when I was 16) I knew SRS was possible and wasn't just some fantasy I'd used to keep myself going since I was 12 (never mnd the fact I came out to my parents when I was 13, and saw no less then 3 therapistss over the next ten years).  I never did find what I was looking for.

I did finally start taking steps when I was 23, including over a year of HRT, towards transition, the best the internet could offer then  was still extremely limited.

I accept responsibility for the fact that I detransitioned.  Even still I went through no less then three DIY periods before I decided to do it the right way and see a gender therapist again.  Before you accuse those of us you consider "late transitioners" of being in some sort of ->-bleeped-<- denial, I'd make sure you have your facts in order including the fact that in the pre-interent days we were pretty much on our own to educate ourselves.
Our biograhies are our own and we need to accept our own diversity without being ashamed that we're somehow not trans enough.
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Stephanie

Regan I apologise for offending you.  My theory about late-transitioners was rather narrow and blinkered.  Of course there are many reasons why people wait until their 40s and 50s to transition, not just the one that I outlined.   However, in my defence I was writing an internet post and not an essay.   



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CaitJ

Quote from: Stephanie on January 15, 2011, 12:49:47 PM
However, in my defence I was writing an internet post and not an essay.   

It's always wise to be conscious of how you might be denigrating a group by speaking of them and for them - no matter what you're writing.
Which is what you didn't do in the piece that Regan quoted.
As Regan said, I suspect that a larger percentage of 'late transitioners' wouldn't be 'late transitioners' if they had all the same resources we have now. Transitioning in the 60s, 70s and 80s wasn't just hard, it was close to a death sentence - if you even knew what you were.
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Catherine

Quote from: Vexing on January 15, 2011, 01:55:51 PM
It's always wise to be conscious of how you might be denigrating a group by speaking of them and for them - no matter what you're writing.
Which is what you didn't do in the piece that Regan quoted.
As Regan said, I suspect that a larger percentage of 'late transitioners' wouldn't be 'late transitioners' if they had all the same resources we have now. Transitioning in the 60s, 70s and 80s wasn't just hard, it was close to a death sentence - if you even knew what you were.

Very well put.. It was impossible for me to transition until now due to the problems the it would have entailed
:-\ :-\
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CaitJ

Quote from: Catherine on January 15, 2011, 02:16:18 PM
Very well put.. It was impossible for me to transition until now due to the problems the it would have entailed
:-\ :-\

Likewise. When I really wanted to transition, I had no support and no resources.
So I lived and worked as a male for 10 years to put those frameworks in place to enable me to transition.
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regan

My case in point, I (we, if I can speak for all the other little 13 year olds in 1987) didn't even know the words to use to explain our feelings.  It was something I'd only been sure of myself since I was 12, in my case I was seperated from my female cousin by her moving out of state.  Until the the fact that I played pretty exclusively with her and her friends and by extension did the things they did was my "normal".

I had fairly tolerant parents, but they didn't have the resources parents do now either.  They allowed me to do pretty much whatever I wanted, be it boy or girl things but they (as the experts I'm sure told them), reminded me constantly that I was a boy.  I'm glad they never tried to "beat the boy in to me", as some others have talked about.  For 1980s parents, they did a pretty good job without the resouces there are today.

It comes down to this, as a 13 year old with an internet connection I could have first educated myself and then my parents.  I certainly would have gone so far as to put together a killer powerpoint for them and campaigned very hard for puberty blockers.  I probably would have been successful.  At the very least I could have convinced them to let me see a true gender therapist and not a therapist that seemed somewhat disappointed that I wasn't sexually aroused by crossdressing.
Our biograhies are our own and we need to accept our own diversity without being ashamed that we're somehow not trans enough.
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Stephanie

With Zythrya and Leslie's permission I would like to explain fully and in more detail why I think of myself as girl and not a woman.   I have given some of my reasons for thinking this above, but I have come up with more reasons and I will be offering examples in support of these reasons.
However, before doing so, I think that it is important to make it clear that when I say that I am a girl, I am not saying that I think of myself as a child.    What I am saying is that I have recognised that while I am female I am not qualified to call myself a woman due to a general lack of adult female experience.    This presented a problem, if I am female but not yet able to consider myself a woman what could I consider myself?   Calling myself female but not a woman, or calling myself a woman but secretly knowing that I still had a great deal to learn seemed wrong and deceitful.   Thinking of myself as female but not a woman,or a girl was embarrassing and silly,and it didn't solve my problem.   I was searching for an identity that recognised my femaleness but would also explain any perceived naivety, and my natural playfulness/silliness.    I also wanted to be entirely open and honest with myself and with others.  So that ruled out downplaying what I have come to see as my girlishness and not trying to talk about things that I didn't properly understand, or didn't have full knowledge or experience of.
So what category would allow me to express myself fully without deceiving myself or others?    The terms 'trainee-woman' and 'apprentice woman' popped into my head, but I dismissed them as utterly ridiculous.   It was then that I realised that a category already existed that fitted me like a glove and it was the category: Girl.    Saying to myself 'Stephanie you are a girl' didn't seem strange at all.  Thinking about this over the next few hours it became clearer and clearer that  everything about me said 'Girl'.     I had found what I was seeking, by accepting unconditionally that I was a girl, my femaleness was acknowledged, and I was being entirely open and honest with myself and others.     I am still delighted by finally understanding myself.


I wished that I had come to terms with being a girl several years ago.  It would have saved me a lot of time, trouble, and wasted energy.    I was that adamant that I was a woman that I caused a lot anger to others and brought a lot of stress and strain upon myself.
Many people here know that I was a long-term member of a womans' website, and that I had quite a few problems with some of the women.  I also felt that they were sending me mixed signals.   I was allowed to stay a member of that website for several years, and I was even able to post in the 'Women Only' Board without too much fuss.  A few members didn't like me doing this, so to please them I generally stopped posting in that forum, even though most of the women said nothing about me posting in there.   This shows quite a considerable acceptance of me.  However, things went down hill over a long period of time and I can see now that it was almost entirely my fault.   
When I first went there I expressed myself honestly.    I talked about things that interested me, what I was doing and how I saw the world.   I didn't hide my femininity from them at all.  I was playful and affectionate and so were they to me.  As a consequence I was very popular.  No one was offended by my feminine attitude and behaviour.  In fact it was actively encouraged.   I would tell them funny things my dog had done, what my favourite nail polish and perfume were and many similar things.   I even suggested that we start a forum Fashion Club where interested members could post pictures of clothes that they liked and we would critique them together!   Even though this was a serious forum debating serious issues some members did post pictures asking me what I thought of this dress or those shoes.
However, as I said above, this was a serious forum and I soon felt that I was distracting the other members from forum business, and I also felt that I had to 'earn my keep' at the forum, which meant offering a sympathetic ear to women and giving them advice.   Conscious of my lack of adult female experience I decided that I could best contribute in the short term by cutting back on my threads/posts and letting the other members get on with helping other women.   Soon I felt the call to contribute to a more serious thread, after all wasn't I doing a 4 year BA(Hons) degree course in History?    I felt that I could contribute to a serious discussion.  I posted my opinion in a thread about politics – giving the background to the discussion because I  just happened to be studying that period at that time.    I was however dismayed to see my contribution ignored.  The next time I gave advice trying to help a woman with two small children decide whether to leave her abusive husband.   I wrote that she should take her children and leave.   I was told that this was too simplistic advice.  The woman had children, one boy was settled at school and the other was just getting ready to start at school.  The mother was thinking of the disruption and emotional damage leaving home would do to her small sons.    I was told women always put their children before themselves, so more mature advice would have been to stay with her husband for the time being but seek help from the police and from guidance counsellors.    This was of course much better advice but I didn't realise  then that I was a girl pretending to be a woman, so I was offended by the general attitude of 'sweetie it was nice that you tried to help but this was perhaps too difficult a case for you to start with'.    I though that they were trying to insult my intelligence and I was really angry.   I was 18 and a woman so I thought how dare they talk to me as if I were empty-headed little girl.     

Time went by I became more angry and resentful(moody and petulant are more accurate descriptions) of what I continued to believe was their condescension towards me and my advice.    The truth was I was giving advice that was more suited to a young teenage girl rather than the woman I was pretending to be.  I posted some angry threads and some women said to me 'ok you say that you are a woman?  Right the gloves are off. You want to be a woman?  Then we'll treat you like a woman, we'll give you no more quarter'.   Other women coped with my petulance by being passive and ignoring me.    Once the gloves came off my advice was carefully and thoroughly critiqued.  Did I have a boyfriend or any experience with men?   Answer : No.   Had I every been in an abusive relationship? Answer: No.   Had I ever been pregnant?  Answer: No.   I could go on but you get the point.   They were showing me that I had zero experience of being an adult female.  I heartily wish that I had realised then that I was a girl in mind, attitude, and in general behaviour.   This was when some women decided that as I wasn't behaving like a woman I must be a man and that is when the 'he', 'his' and 'him' started.   I was extremely hurt and angry that these genetic women whose acceptance I craved like a drowning man craves air were rejecting me and telling me I wasn't a woman!
I should point out that not everyone thought like this.  Some of the woman with teenage daughters or granddaughters probably recognised my behaviour as being far more like a girl than a woman, and they would come to my defence occasionally.
Looking back at my time there, I realise that they knew what I was right from the start.  They were perfectly willing to accept me as a girl, but no I had to give advice about things I didn't know anything about because I was a woman wasn't I?    Had I realised the truth about myself then.  I would have come out and admitted – as I am doing now – that I am a girl rather than a woman.  I would have been able to sit at their feet so-to-speak and I would have learnt a great deal, and been further down the road to genuine womanhood.   


As I said at the beginning I am delighted to finally call myself something that feels good, accurate, and doesn't deceive anyone.   I am also aware that I have had a wonderful insight into my situation and character.  By embracing  the fact that I am girl rather than a woman I feel so much better, lighter, and much more relaxed and honest.    I also realised that pretending to be a woman was insulting to both my mother and sister.   My sister is 18 and has a good deal more experience in womanhood than I do.  Yet I just loftily announced that I was a woman.  I had gone from being a young man(at least to everyone but me) to a woman with a click of my fingers and with the utmost ease.   I said that I was a woman  therefore I must be a woman, which was what I thought.  What arrogance!  My sister who is a first year/Freshman at university told me after I explained to her that I felt much more like a girl than a woman, told me that she felt sometimes like a woman and sometimes like a girl. 

They say a journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step, a saying that is particularly relevant for the transsexual community.  However, before starting out on that journey it is vital to know not just your destination but from where you start.   I am starting that journey as a girl who sincerely hopes to be able to say to herself and to others in five or six years time that I am woman without mental reservation or have others doubting this.





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CaitJ

Stephanie, it's interesting that your lack of experience leads you to paint yourself as a girl.
If you were an equally inexperienced male, would you call yourself a boy? Or an inept man?
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LordKAT

in experienced adults, ain't they teenagers?
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CaitJ

Quote from: LordKAT on January 16, 2011, 08:58:07 PM
in experienced adults, ain't they teenagers?

BINGO!
And some people stay teenagers their whole lives, regardless of whether they're cis or trans.
In the army, I met some teenagers who were approaching retirement age.
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Stephanie

Thank you Perlita for your kind reply.  :)

P.S. I have replied privately to Vexing.  I just wanted to say that, as I didn't want to be thought rude for apparently not replying to her question.

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rejennyrated

 :police: Perlita85

I know that you don't like Vexing, and that the two of you have past history.  However I have to say that your constant use of little snips and puns in threads like this to try and needle her or get her into trouble has not gone un-noticed by anyone. Yes I know you don't name her, but its rather obvious to whom you refer, as indeed is the use of the word vexing as a pun in various other threads.

Comments in threads must be addressed to the topic and NOT to your perception of the other participants in the thread. If you don't like someone simply don't respond to their posts.

Kindly CEASE these activities IMMEDIATELY or face the consequences. You are NOT making yourself look good and indeed if you persist in this ill advised attitude you may start to become known as a disruptive trouble maker yourself is that really what you want? I think not. So please heed this warning because the next time will involve more formal action.

Thank you  :police:
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