Male lesbian concept / problem with body/facial hair / post-30yo-masculinization

[japple]

Man-Dyke? Oh, dear me. If memory serves me correctly, I've heard of the really offensive term term dyke (I remember being called that when I was bullied in middle school).

Dyke is like the "n" word.  You can use it among your own.  It's reappropriation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reappropriation

Words are powerful.  Lesbians aren't going to be appreciative of a man's appropration of that word and identity.  Is it sexist to think that to be a passive or "feminine" man you are a woman?  Androgynous or if you're going by that book "love shy" heterosexual seem to fit better.

It sounds like the OP wants youth and no body hair.  This does not a woman make. 

If you are a white (or majority in-power racial/ethnic group of your country) male it's kind of best to tread lightly when discussing the appropriation of identity without the social/political struggles.

[CaitJ]

Violet, good luck getting something useful from asking for an explanation of the objection to the term male lesbian.

I think my last post provided a very adequate explanation.

The reaction has the distinct flavour of having touched a personal nerve.

Since I'm not a lesbian and identify as a heterosexual woman, I cannot fathom how this could possibly have touched 'a personal nerve'.

I would wonder if the objector even knows why they feel strongly enough about it to be denouncing your comments here.

Yes, I most certainly do know why I object to misogyny, because misogyny is inherently wrong.

Their posts about it just feel combative to me.

Misogyny should always be fought at every turn, so I'm not surprised that I came across as combative 

[Rock_chick]

My dad, in his attempts to understand things when i came out to my family, tried to attach the 'male lesbian' label to me and I have to admit we had a couple of arguments about it...i definitely didn't like it then and i certainly don't like it now.

[violet_owl]

Hello, thanks to everyone who contributed. This was really important to me. A note to Vexing,
I do understand the problem. Thanks for your criticism. I'd really love to continue participating in
this discussion but I can't afford this at the moment (too little time to do so).

Just one final remark: I think there is some misconception about the identity problem I have.
I would clearly like to turn into a woman and then would feel attracted to women. As a man,
I have difficulties with physical interaction with women *because I often do not like the idea of the
woman feeling attracted to me as a man* - I'd prefer her to be attracted to me as a woman.
I don't have too much problems with my male body as long as I can keep it sufficiently androgynous,
and as long as I know the woman is attracted to androgynity. Still, I am very ambivalent as to
what feels right. Certain masculine aspects feel authentic, others do not. I am stuck between
two unappealing options. Either stay with the current status quo, or consider a transformation,
which will lead to a state of my body that will cause even more problems - I decidedly do not
want a male body that has been transformed into a female body, I either want a female body
with no signs of fomer masculinity - or else I prefer the androgynous male body. So summa
summarum, it's 80 to 20 for the androgynous male body (versus altered body), but 100 to 0 for
the "authentic" female body versus the male body. (And 0 to 100 for a TS body versus a
fully masculinized body. So there. This explains my fear with ageing. This is not just about
youth and a small problem with body hair. I also have been wondering if pressure to undergo
a transformational process is correlated with ongoing masculization in the course of ageing,
which would really frighten me a bit. It would essentially mean I am heading for a terrible future.
I am really glad I have laser/blend options. As you can see from the pro-con percentages,, this
is vital for me, since clinging androgynity is my only option to remain in-sync with my body.
I don't know what to call this condition - its essentially an androgynous heterosexual male
who would greatly prefer to be *born* a lesbian woman, yet chooses to remain an androgynous
male for above given reasons. (so there is some "multiple identy" aspect to this.) hence the term
"male lesbian", which is just a misleadingly shortened description of this somewhat complicated
situation. note that androgynity is not a prerequisite of this - it applies to me, but there are
probably many self-described "male lesbians" (pardon the term, will clarify in the next sentence)
who don't have this specific urge (androgynity) within their male identy.
So the correct description of this "condition" is "heterosexual male who stronly whished he was
*born* a lesbian and to whom a sex change does not appeal". This is a horrible condition, in fact.
Therefore the term "male lesbian" must be seen as such: ***A lesbian upon whom maleness has
been coerced.*** (@Vexing: mind this sentence, please!) It is not to be read "a male who takes lesbianism to attribute it to himself",
but "a male who feels like a lesbian upon whom maleness has been coerced, but who has
no other option other than dealing with his maleness and reluctantly making the best out of it."

[CaitJ]

Okay, seriously, can we stop right there with the 'male lesbian' crap already? You're mansplaining. Please stop it.

FYI, if you were to take hormones of any sort, there is no guarantee that your orientation would remain static; I was attracted to women pre-hormones and am now exclusively attracted to men.

[Simone Louise]

What a welcome we gave you, Violet_Owl! Usually, first postings are greeted more warmly. And, to think, some have called Androgynes mild-mannered.

You've met Vexing, our self-identified supervixen. I love her, because interacting with her makes me be clearer about my meaning and the words I use to express that meaning. Since, I am here to learn, her prodding is quite valuable. You say you don't have time to continue the discussion, but I hope you will find the time to return in the near future.

There is a distinction between being an androgyne and looking androgynous. If you want a woman to recognize your female side, that is possible regardless of how you look on the outside and regardless of the woman's sexual orientation. There are plenty of strong, heterosexual women. You do need to be clear about who you are (aside from any label) and what roles you are comfortable with. Do you want her to drive when you go out together. To decide where you will go on a date. Do you want to cook and take care of the house? Do you want to wear a nightgown to bed? Do you want her to call your male bits by the corresponding names for female bits? Do you want to take her name if you marry? Vexing will tell you, there are no roles that are inherently for one gender or another. She--your hypothetical partner and, I guess Vexing,too--may be relieved you don't want to transition.

If you haven't already done this, it will help to discuss your issues of gender (and aging) with a therapist who specializes or has experience in gender.

S

[violet_owl]

Thanks, Simone.
Looking up in the dict what mansplaining means, thanks once again for pointing
things out, Vexing.
Whilst you may be right in your points, I see no reason to be condescending.
This is the very behavioral pattern you rightfully criticize in men. Hence, you're
in the midth of an arms race (and of course it's the other side who was the
initial aggressor) and launching preemptive strikes all the way long.

[CaitJ]

Thanks, Simone.
Looking up in the dict what mansplaining means, thanks once again for pointing
things out, Vexing.
Whilst you may be right in your points, I see no reason to be condescending.
This is the very behavioral pattern you rightfully criticize in men. Hence, you're
in the midth of an arms race (and of course it's the other side who was the
initial aggressor) and launching preemptive strikes all the way long.

You're misconstruing annoyance and anger for condescention.
FYI, it's extremely insulting to compare male behaviour to the behaviour displayed by a trans woman.

[rejennyrated]

  Oh for crying out loud.  Both of you leave it now or this goes official and I will be handing out sanctions. (which I am trying hard not to do).

The two of you will never agree on this one. There are many terms that people use that I find inexplicable or downright insulting. They still use them anyway so get over it already!

I don't understand the term Male Lesbian, and indeed I think it could be rather confusing to people, but then people who live on the Isle of lesbos don't like Gay women calling themselves lesbian either. In fact they took it to court and complained that it was an insult to them.

There also was a time when a man could be Gay without being homosexual. Point is language evolves and anyone who thinks that a social group has a monopoly on a particular term is not dealing with reality.

So this escalating irritation must end now. You both have a right to an opinion, but the fact that you find each others opinions irritating does NOT require that the other party immediately changes their POV.

You have both now drifted towards personal attack territory which is a violation of site rule 15 https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html A mutual apology and a cooling off would be a good idea.

Or would you rather I put my official site police hat on and issued a set of official warnings? 

Ps - as one of you has now gone offline I shall suspend my decision on whether to issue a formal warning until later when you have both read this post. Depending on how things progress from here I, or indeed other moderators may or may not decide to take more robust action.

[CaitJ]

Sorry, my convictions are not for sale.
If standing up against misogyny can be construed as a personal attack on someone, then I'm 100% guilty - hand out my punishment.

[violet_owl]

- I'll try my best to remain fair.
- Personally, I would like Vexing to continue posting uncensored.
- My impression is that I myself have, in the past, done far to little trying to
  understand what feelings are going on in a (female) feminist's mind and
  have done to little to understand that perspective they have and the position they
  are in.
- At the same time, I believe the *very* same is true for not taking
  any effort whatsoever to try to enter the perspecitve and identiy that
  is described in Gilmartin's book, on Vexing's part.

[rejennyrated]

Sorry, my convictions are not for sale.
If standing up against misogyny can be construed as a personal attack on someone, then I'm 100% guilty - hand out my punishment.

vexing It is ABSOLUTELY NOT the convictions that are in question here as you should well know.

It is ONLY a matter of the manner in which they may be expressed. Phrases like STFU are rude and aggressive and can be construed by some as a form of personal attack. You will note that that was all I changed in your post.

Opinions can be deeply held. If truth be told I hold similar reservations to you about this issue, but on this site at least, those opinions MUST be held in a way which is respectful of the right of an individual to hold a contrary view. Telling someone to "Shut The F*** UP", which was what you originally said before I edited it, can by no stretch be considered a respectful way to address them.

Did you but know it I constantly argue your case in staff sections of the forum which, you cannot see against a few who might like to hang you out to dry. Sadly you have now left me no choice.

20 point warning! Not for the opinions but for the manner in which you evidently WILLFULLY CHOOSE to express them despite frequent warnings to tone it down.  Also for arguing moderator decisions.

[violet_owl]

@rejennyrated

I am new to this kind of thinking and I'd like to invest into it, either adopting it, or
at least understanding it. Whilst I have doubts and fear my logic and argumentation
might be faulty, the process of my self-correction and re-adjustment proves difficult because
attention is drawn to the personal attracks an either side (which will hopefully stop),
and because I personally still feel I am not provided with suffient information and
arguments to fully understand the criticism I am confronted with. Is it mainly
about the word "lesbian" that should not be used by men as an attribute, for given
reasons? Or is there more to it, and more to criticism about Gilmartin's concept? I.e.
is the use of the word "lesbian" your sole "reservation on this issue", or is there more to say?
I'm really interested in more opinions. I am still struggling to understand how a
mindset that at least intends to be pro-feminine is faced with accusations of misogyny.
I am repeating myself, though. This might be going in circles. Still, a few more opinions
might shed more light on this. So I really encourange everyone reading this thread to
leave their POV. Greatly appreciated.
In fact, I am becoming so aware of all these gender problems that I have just been asking
myself if asking for  Vexing not to be censored is an act of subconscious patronizing as she can well speak for herself.
Am I on the right track here?

--
corrected: options=opinions.

[pebbles]

Low levels of hormone blockers would prevent additional facial hair developing... You'd find it hard to get them theough proper channels tho and I'm forbidden to tell you howto get them through other channels.

I should point out apart from the confusing man lesbian thing which I don't get you sound abit like me age 16-20 struggling with my gender identity. not that I'm trying to hijack your identity.

I also like you when I was young had massive dysphoria at my facial hair so much so that I tried to get laser hair removal at a young age 19 as more and more of it was coming in. While I wasn't happy as a male I could have possibly at that time endured had I been able to live as a highly androgynous male.

My attempt to stop it failed I should point out as long as you have T in your body your body will continue transforming vellus hairs into terminal hairs. That was my experience and it was soul crushing I couldn't get it to die as soon as I killed the things they would just regenerate. waste of money in my experience.

Eventually I realized that it's just not going to stop. My dysphoria or my body with T on it driving closer toward "male" And that really nothing short of the whole transition is going to help me.

[Simone Louise]

Violet Fox, Sean and Japple have warned against hijacking the experiences of minorities. There is an example in the Jewish press right now: http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=203410. A Fox News commentator complained that she was the victim of a blood libel. To Jews everywhere, the term "blood libel" has a highly charged meaning, and a specific reference. For centuries, Christians and other anti-semites have accused Jews of killing children to use their blood in the manufacture of matzah. The charge, do I have to mention?, is false and ludicrous since the making of matzah is strictly regulated by Jewish law, and can be made only from flour that has been watched to ensure no fermentation and water, and must be baked within 18 minutes of having been mixed. Nevertheless, Jews have been tried, convicted, and executed--and murdered without benefit of trial--for the alleged crime. For a Christian to hijack that term to complain that she has been wrongly, in her eyes, criticized in the press is highly offensive to Jews, including me.

You say you want to be treated as a woman. Be careful what you wish for. The UN reports that "At least one in three women around the world has been beaten, coerced into sex or abused in some way, most often by someone she knows..." http://www.peace.ca/oneinthreewomen.htm We male-bodied individuals can say we identify with women, we have a woman's soul, or whatever; until we walk vulnerably and forever after in a woman's shoes, we dare hijack their terms for their experience. Understand that it is the term, not your experience or dysphoria, or even Gilmartin's research, that is so offensive.

S

[Adabelle]

We male-bodied individuals can say we identify with women, we have a woman's soul, or whatever; until we walk vulnerably and forever after in a woman's shoes, we dare hijack their terms for their experience.

I don't understand completely what you mean here. Do you feel it's offensive for transgender MTF people to call themselves women because they came from a male bodied experiences with all the implied rights and privileges?

[cynthialee]

I don't understand completely what you mean here. Do you feel it's offensive for transgender MTF people to call themselves women because they came from a male bodied experiences with all the implied rights and privileges?

I took it this way also.

just sayin'

[Simone Louise]

I don't understand completely what you mean here. Do you feel it's offensive for transgender MTF people to call themselves women because they came from a male bodied experiences with all the implied rights and privileges?

I speak for myself alone as a person with a male body unaltered by HRT or surgery (except a TURP that I don't think counts). I believe I said that those who have altered their bodies so that they are for all intents and purposes women, and will be for the rest of their lives, and as such are vulnerable as any other woman, are in a different category. I am certainly not offended if a woman calls herself a woman. Are you?

I am trying to figure out what it means as a male bodied person to know I am a woman (Perhaps, I do find it offensive to call myself a woman). And I sit in the dust at the feet of those of you who have figured it out already.

S

[CaitJ]

Also for arguing moderator decisions.

At no point did I argue with your decission. As it can be clearly seen in this thread, I embraced the decission.

[rite_of_inversion]

ANYWAY...

Violet actually sounds like per *might*, at some point, move more towards or completely into the female...   and there's a lot of transsexual lesbians out there.
A friend of mine who's pre-op for strictly financial reasons-she's a biker chick, butcher than me...probably V.O. also...probably a lot of straight cisguys...She's still all woman.

So there's gender and then there's gender presentation.  I actually think androgyny might be a better term to use ATM?
There's some really dumb hetero cisguys who use "I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body," as a lame way to try to pick up women.  Beyond that, not too many people will know what you're talking about.
I read that about 25% of a survey sample of transwomen remained gynephilic after surgery.  I can't remember the number before surgery but I think it was more like 50-60% So changing orientation along with sexual characteristics does happen-for a number of transsexual people.  Not all.

Now if the cisgen female population was 25% gynephilic, I would have gotten lucky with the ladies way more often in my twenties... I am disappoint .

Skimming the article about "male lesbian" and I don't think variances in temperament are the same as gender variance.   What Gilmartin's talking about are hetero males who dislike the role society forces them into. Which I can see...it's part of the reservations I have about ever being male...or female.  The roles.  Both genders get forced into them-and males get a lot less leeway when it comes to gender "transgressions."  Of course I also feel weird about not having any roles as an androgyne-no templates.  People who step outside the gender templates get punished, sometimes physically, by the people around them.

But I think Gilmartin's getting the gender and the gender role confused.