Male lesbian concept / problem with body/facial hair / post-30yo-masculinization

[ativan]

I don't really think of it as attacking, as it is a reasonable expectation.
I'm trying to take a break myself. I really have a lot of things I should be doing.

Always, a better day

[Nero]

A note to all - users do not have the ability to retract smites. They may later applaud the same member returning their rep to their original number but that's as far as it goes. The rep log is reviewed regularly and inappropriate or unwarranted smites (as judged by staff) are reversed. Smites and applauds are all voluntary. Members are never under any obligation to attempt to neutralize or undo a smite they gave regardless of apology, cessation of disagreement, or anything else.

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However, this is just a note and no warning will be given this time. Further violations in this thread (or elsewhere) will result in warnings or other appropriate action.

[VeryGnawty]

So basically, this threat is about "male lesbians"/male androgynes who primarily
hate their male body hair, but other than that can easily pass as somewhat
feminine heterosexuals.

I don't have a problem with the terminology of male lesbianism.  I have more of a problem with the practicality of achieving it.

The problem with sexual characteristics is that you can't pick and choose.  It is not a salad bar.  If you try to take hormones to become a feminized male, it essentially makes you less male by definition.  Hormonally, androgens and estrogens work in certain ratios which determine their effects on the cells of the body.  If you try to reduce androgens (even without attempting to increase estrogens) you have changed that ratio of chemicals in the body.  So the real question is, exactly how much "male" are you, and how much "lesbian" are you?  For example, if you started growing breasts, would that be all right?  If you blocked your hormones and had reduced sexual functioning, would that be acceptable?  If you began to look like a she-male with curves and a feminine pattern of fat distribution, would that be agreeable?

If you alter your hormone levels, you will inevitably get some changes, and reduction in body/facial hair will almost certainly not be on the top of the list of changes you are likely to experience.  In fact, facial hair tends to be very resilient to hormone treatments.  Maybe the hairs would get lighter, and maybe they would grow back slower, but you would probably have to alter your hormone levels a lot to make any significant dent in your facial hair problem.  How feminine are you willing to become in order to try to change the aspects of your body that you do not like?  You have already stated that you don't want to be stuck as some half-man/woman looking person.  But the more you play around with either reducing androgens or increasing estrogens, the more like that person you are going to become.

If you try to alter your hormones, how much feminization are you willing to tolerate in your attempt to demasculinize the areas of your body that you do not like?  If you do not have an answer to that question, then you need to do a lot more thinking before you make any decisions.

[Simone Louise]

So the real question is, exactly how much "male" are you, and how much "lesbian" are you? ....

If you try to alter your hormones, how much feminization are you willing to tolerate in your attempt to demasculinize the areas of your body that you do not like?  If you do not have an answer to that question, then you need to do a lot more thinking before you make any decisions.

Did you see this later posting by the OP?

I would clearly like to turn into a woman... .... I am stuck between
two unappealing options. Either stay with the current status quo, or consider a transformation,
which will lead to a state of my body that will cause even more problems - I decidedly do not
want a male body that has been transformed into a female body, I either want a female body
with no signs of fomer masculinity - or else I prefer the androgynous male body.  So summa
summarum, it's 80 to 20 for the androgynous male body (versus altered body), but 100 to 0 for
the "authentic" female body versus the male body. And 0 to 100 for a TS body versus a
fully masculinized body.

Elsewhere, in another forum on this site, a woman who transitioned decades ago posted:

There are certainly simple medical procedures that would out me very quickly I know that.

That is what bothered the OP of this thread--you could for ever after tell that this she had once been a he.

S

[ativan]

I don't have a problem with the terminology of male lesbianism.  I have more of a problem with the practicality of achieving it.

The problem with sexual characteristics is that you can't pick and choose.  It is not a salad bar.  If you try to take hormones to become a feminized male, it essentially makes you less male by definition.

So the real question is, exactly how much "male" are you, and how much "lesbian" are you?  For example, if you started growing breasts, would that be all right?  If you blocked your hormones and had reduced sexual functioning, would that be acceptable?  If you began to look like a she-male with curves and a feminine pattern of fat distribution, would that be agreeable?

If you alter your hormone levels, you will inevitably get some changes, and reduction in body/facial hair will almost certainly not be on the top of the list of changes you are likely to experience.  In fact, facial hair tends to be very resilient to hormone treatments.  Maybe the hairs would get lighter, and maybe they would grow back slower, but you would probably have to alter your hormone levels a lot to make any significant dent in your facial hair problem.  How feminine are you willing to become in order to try to change the aspects of your body that you do not like?

You have already stated that you don't want to be stuck as some half-man/woman looking person.  But the more you play around with either reducing androgens or increasing estrogens, the more like that person you are going to become.

If you try to alter your hormones, how much feminization are you willing to tolerate in your attempt to demasculinize the areas of your body that you do not like?  If you do not have an answer to that question, then you need to do a lot more thinking before you make any decisions.

I have to turn the notification off on topics. I can't seem to ignore my emails.

I am not trying to take your statements out of context, I did edit them down to what stood out to me in your overall opinion. I get much of what you are trying to say, with the exception of one thing. I appreciate your input, I hope that some find it useful. Some of it I can't. This is just my own personal opinion, I am not trying to represent non-binaries as a whole.

   This is an example of what I had in my rant. It so smacks of a put-down/warning about being non-binary.

  If you take hormones you will be less male? You wouldn't be less anything. You would be more female. Or you could have stated maybe, less male and more female. But hormones will never make you less anything.

   She-male? She-male? You try to reduce it down to something pornographic? Really? Or is it just surveyor symbols? (I wasn't going to leave that in, but I think it makes a point.) The only time I ever heard that term used here was a year ago, and not in the Androgyne sections. Personally I find that statement extremely offensive coming from a binary woman. Do you consider that everyone then, that has some or all female physical attributes with the exception of also having a penis a she-male? Should non-binaries refer to those in physical transition as she-males while in transition?? Would that be proper to you? Would you find it OK if I referred to Binaries in transition that way? I don't and I won't. Ever. I have never heard it used that way around here, with that intent.

   Facial hair can't be stopped with hormones alone. We know that. Laser, etc. is also needed. If Violet_Owl has concerns enough to ask about it, I'm sure that the answers will be along those lines.

   Was it some half-man/woman, or did you mean some man/woman? Are you refering to some non-binaries as only half a man and a woman combination? I want to think you meant man/woman, but I still feel the initial pain somewhat from when I read that.

   The last statement is more of the same, sounding like a put down from a binary, but it is entirely OK, it just sounds that way I suppose from what was written before it.

   If Violet_Owl does not have sufficient answers to that question, it is not more thinking that is so much required, as it is in asking questions in seeking the answers.

   Which was the original intent, after a description that should be respected, of Violet_Owl.

In my Opinion, not to be confused with IMHO.
Always, have a better day
Ativan

[Rock_chick]

Right, I'm locking this thread under rule 15 of the TOS. I think people are starting to take things way too personally here.

Apologies to violet owl for not really getting the answers they wanted

any way, for reference TOS 15

15. Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand, members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack.

Helena