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How the Gender Community has caused me Discrimination

Started by Britney_413, January 22, 2011, 11:32:03 PM

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Britney_413

I am going to list two incidents here and hopefully some people will begin to understand why TS people are tired of being lumped in with this "All Gender Movement."

1. I have had a routine of going out with friends to a restaurant late at night on the weekends. Most of the time we will go to one of two Denny's in the Phoenix area. One of these Denny's is known to be the "gay Denny's." The other one is just a regular Denny's. Depending on what my friends and I decide to do we either go to one or the other so both have seen me for awhile as a regular customer. I have always presented female in these locations as well (even before going full time).

Close to six months ago, I went to one of these Denny's and there was an issue. I often use the bathroom while I'm there but this time I never even went in the bathroom. When I'm leaving, a new manager comes out and tells me that I cannot use the women's room. I argued with him and the next day called the higher-up manager who quickly resolved the issue. I still frequent both venues and have no issue since. That particular manager in question was immediately transferred to another Denny's but has recently returned to the original one in question. I can't say if that was coincidence or not. Guess which one the discrimination happened at? The gay Denny's. Want to know why? Because regularly a bunch of drag queens go there to eat who clearly look like men, talk like men, and act like men. A complaint had been generated about a man in the woman's restroom although the complaint was not directed towards me. Funny how at the other Denny's (the regular one) nobody has ever had an issue despite the fact that the servers (and likely a few regular customers) know I'm trans. Well I have been in this woman's room at the gay Denny's before only to witness cross-dressing/drag queen men enter it, talk in loud male voices, and then urinate in the toilet while standing. Then you wonder why genetic women get upset and now I'm being discriminated against because I'm being lumped into that category.

2. My employer has been working with me throughout my transition. My direct boss has been extremely helpful. My co-workers and superiors have gradually seen the changes such as my hair growing out, nail polish, female shoes, etc. They had seen me present full female on two Halloweens. When I knew it was getting close to going full time I mentioned it to the boss who was very supportive. HR made the decision that as long as I dress appropriately according to the female dress code then there is no concern. I cannot officially use a female name until it has been legally changed but co-workers are free to call me by my preferred name. I must use the men's room until I am ready to change to the women's room but that I should talk to HR first prior to doing so. My boss suggested after I went full time to give it some more time before switching bathrooms to make it easier for everyone to adjust. No problem.

Recently, I found out that I cannot use the women's room until I've had SRS. I told them I did not agree with that and that it needs to be looked into further. I met with HR who did seem very supportive, provided them with my diagnosis letter from my therapist, and they will talk to the corporate HR/legal department to see what they can do. The prospect looks good so I won't call this discrimination. But there is a reason there is even a question about it in the first place. Many years ago a man had been working there who suddenly decided out of the blue to show up as a female. From the reports that I heard he looked like a drag queen with exaggerated feminine appearances. The man goes right into the women's room and it causes people to get upset. This person was changing his gender on a near daily basis. For a couple of days he would be a woman and use the women's room, then for the rest of the week he would be a man and go to the men's room. He smarted off at managers and co-workers when they misgendered him. When it became an HR issue he got angry at them and demanded that he was being discriminated against. Thanks to this idiot I explained to HR that this is not just some hobby or phase that I'm in but that it's a medical condition and something permanent. Naturally it is harder for people to accept what I have as a legitimate medical condition when a man previously decides to make an unprofessional and inappropriate mockery of gender in the workplace.

Time and time again, this is why TS people can't get rights. Insurance companies consider SRS, hormones, therapy, etc. all cosmetic or optional. This is thanks again to people such as in the two examples above whose gender identity and expression are choices and behaviors, not medical conditions. It seems like every time me, another TS, or an IS is close to getting equal treatment someone from this "all gender movement" has to behave in a way that causes others to de-legitimize our needs and experiences. You can see it in the media as well. The public does not see a TS as just another woman on television. They think a TS is someone similar to the above examples.

The "accept everybody" movement does nothing to get people the equal rights they need. People who behave as mentioned above demanding acceptance when their behavior is not worthy of respect not only don't get accepted but cause those with legitimate needs to be discriminated against. Enough said.
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caitlin_adams

I've often thought that those with gender incongruence fit better into the intersex group rather than the broader gender queer group.

Our intersex condition is a brain sex developmental condition that sees our brains out of line with the rest of our body.

Some people may not like the further medicalisation of our condition but in terms of legal rights, medical treatment and public acceptance I think it would help us greatly.
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Dana Lane

I don't know exactly what kind of anti-discrimination policies or state/local laws you have where you work but where I live at it is against the law to deny me the right to use the appropriate restroom at work for the gender which I identify as. Even though I work at a very liberal University which has an anti-discrimination policy that specifically mentions gender identity and expression I was told I wouldn't be able to use the ladies restroom until after surgery. I told them I have to live as a woman for one year before I am able to get surgery and women don't use the mens restroom. I also sent them a local law that basically showed them it was illegal to do this. They quickly resolved that situation! I was also told I could not change my name in my employee non-tax-records where once again the proof of surgery thing came up. Again, sent them the law and that was resolved.

I had a few problems getting the logistics of my transition completed but it didn't take long and everything is just fine now.

Check your companies anti-discrimination police as well as state and local laws and how it applies to the name change and bathroom situation.
============
Former TS Separatist who feels deep regret
http://www.transadvocate.com/category/dana-taylor
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rejennyrated

Quote from: caitlin_adams on January 23, 2011, 02:32:47 AM
I've often thought that those with gender incongruence fit better into the intersex group rather than the broader gender queer group.

Our intersex condition is a brain sex developmental condition that sees our brains out of line with the rest of our body.

Some people may not like the further medicalisation of our condition but in terms of legal rights, medical treatment and public acceptance I think it would help us greatly.
And there is work being done by a team of researchers in Australia under Dr Vincent Harley that proves that for at least some of us it is PRECISELY that. The malfunctioning for MtFs (or for FtMs hyperfunctioning) of a small previously overlooked specialised Androgen receptor in the human brain which appears to control the initial formation of structure.

Of course the nurture brigade don't much like Dr Harley's work because it all but proved that, for some at least, the condition is totally hardwired and almost certainly not affected at all by nurture.  ::)

But Yeah I think that whilst I accept fully everyone's right to exist and do what they have to, I do get tired of people who want to take it just that one step further and assume that therefore we are all the same.

None of us is any "more worthy" or more deserving of respect than the others, but we are clearly not all pursuing the same results nor indeed, I suspect, do we all have the same original motivation and medical causes.
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japple

Quote from: Britney_413 on January 22, 2011, 11:32:03 PMPeople who behave as mentioned above demanding acceptance when their behavior is not worthy of respect not only don't get accepted but cause those with legitimate needs to be discriminated against. Enough said.

Do you really think that your issues of being clocked as a man using a women's restroom is caused by Drag Queens and if they hadn't preceded you then everything would have been fine?  There were better policies in place that they somehow ruined?  A customer complained about the Drag Queens using that restroom, would that same customer let you slide because you're more polite? 

While different than you, those people who are clowning around with drag are not your enemies. They most likely wouldn't discriminate against you.  In their world bathrooms wouldn't be marked with a person in pants or a dress in the first place.   That's a better world.
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VeryGnawty

Quote from: Vexing on January 23, 2011, 01:05:31 AM
Solution: Unisex Toilets.

For the love of all that is holy, we need more unisex toilets.
"The cake is a lie."
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Dana Lane

If we didn't need to use the bathroom like everyone else we might have more rights and less discrimination. But we are too selfish and use the bathroom anyways.
============
Former TS Separatist who feels deep regret
http://www.transadvocate.com/category/dana-taylor
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Britney_413

QuoteNone of us is any "more worthy" or more deserving of respect than the others, but we are clearly not all pursuing the same results nor indeed, I suspect, do we all have the same original motivation and medical causes.

If you are talking about the different non-cisgendered identities, I agree with you. If you are talking about the behavior of individuals I disagree. I respect people worthy of respect and reject people worthy of contempt. I am not respecting someone who enters a women's restroom and stands to pee. I don't respect people who fail to flush the toilet or wash their hands either. This "accept everyone" movement has been taken too far. I don't accept inappropriate behavior, period. Diversity is great but not to the point where a society isn't allowed to have any cultural standards at all.

QuoteDo you really think that your issues of being clocked as a man using a women's restroom is caused by Drag Queens and if they hadn't preceded you then everything would have been fine?  There were better policies in place that they somehow ruined?  A customer complained about the Drag Queens using that restroom, would that same customer let you slide because you're more polite?

I was never clocked by anyone. I thought I mentioned that me being trans at both of these restaurants is an open secret. I don't parade it around but the regular customers and servers are aware of it. So it wasn't a being clocked issue. The issue was that someone was acting inappropriately in a restroom and the customer then blamed all trans people over that one individual.

I'd like to see more unisex bathrooms but that isn't going to be possible for a long time. In some buildings they work more effectively and in others they do not. I guess it is something for the architects to work out. Buildings where large numbers of bathrooms are needed would be far less efficient if they were all separate unisex stalls than separate men's and women's rooms. Other buildings could easily implement them. I'd like to see more unisex toilets but there are also logistical issues there.
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glendagladwitch

Quote from: Britney_413 on January 23, 2011, 09:24:25 PM
Diversity is great but not to the point where a society isn't allowed to have any cultural standards at all.

If those standards are narrowly tailored only to discourage, prevent, or punish behavior that actually causes harm to others or deprives others of their natural human rights, then fine.  But you are talking about gender segregation for its own sake, in a way that does not prevent harmful behavior, and that is harmful in its own right.

QuoteThe issue was that someone was acting inappropriately in a restroom and the customer then blamed all trans people over that one individual.

The issue is that the manager deprived you of your natural right to use the restroom of your choice because of a senseless and harmful cultural taboo, and yet you choose to blame another victim of that taboo who was exhibiting harmless behavior.

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cynthialee

Britany;
You offer no remedy to your issue.
You mearly complain about anouther segment of the gender nonconforming population.
That makes the original post a troll.....

Yes drag queens act like men....they are men. But why would one choose to use the womens room instead of the mens?
Bigotry. They have no desire to have their ass kicked anymore than you or I do. Keep in mind they are just as vulnerable to bigotry as a TS if not more due to poor passing skills.



So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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japple

Quote from: glendagladwitch on January 24, 2011, 08:27:50 AM
If those standards are narrowly tailored only to discourage, prevent, or punish behavior that actually causes harm to others or deprives others of their natural human rights, then fine.  But you are talking about gender segregation for its own sake, in a way that does not prevent harmful behavior, and that is harmful in its own right.

The issue is that the manager deprived you of your natural right to use the restroom of your choice because of a senseless and harmful cultural taboo, and yet you choose to blame another victim of that taboo who was exhibiting harmless behavior.

Heart heart heart.  OP has posted several threads being critical to different flavors of TG without the perception that we all have to stick together.  Heck, we're lucky that T is tacked on to GBLT despite plenty of GBL's feeling it's holding them back.  I fell in love with Susan's because it really represents the broad range of TG, 50% of whom are completely new flavors to me.   It's given me a lot of empathy and understanding.
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Ruby

Quote from: Artisan010 on January 23, 2011, 09:47:01 PM
  Generally accepted principles (and some case law) says that you are to use the restroom of the gender you are presenting,

When a person stands to piss in the bathroom or speaks in a masculine voice, this is NOT PRESENTING as female. To complain about it is to stand up for the rights of those who do present as female. Yes, a drag queen would not be safe in a men's bathroom and she is safe in a women's bathroom because we do not beat them up. But it IS okay if we complain! They need to know that their behavior is not welcome. For them to behave in such a manner is to abuse patriarchal privilege. Think of the reverse. Would any transman use a feminine voice in the men's bathroom? It would not be safe to do so. It angers me to hear a man's voice in the women's restroom and not because it hurts the cause of transwomen, though sometimes it might. It angers me because I am a cisgendered female and I have rights too!

I have no desire to split the trans community over issues of bathroom use or anything else. But let it be known that bathroom etiquette is not something that we need to throw out the window. At conventions, the moderators always speak to sitting to pee; they forget to mention refrain from talking. It's a simple courtesy; not a travesty of transgender rights.

"I'm being discriminated against because I'm being lumped into that category" says Britney. I hear you. It is frustrating, but the only answer is education and you are in the trenches with that. Thank you for your work. Try not to take it out on the gender community that is not TS; some may actually be TS for one thing; the others need educating too.

Whew...kind of a hot topic for me. :-\
Ruby
The purpose of life is to be happy.
                  ~ The Buddha
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Britney_413

Just because there are so many flavors of TG does not mean I am a gender deconstructionist. There IS a such thing as gender. As much as I am a strong libertarian who believes in freedom and limited controls, that doesn't mean I believe there should be no cultural values at all. I don't think that the gender movement to get cis people to accept TG people should result in a movement for gender deconstructionism. I favor unisex bathrooms under two conditions: a) that they are strictly single door facilities (not just stall door but large physical door) and b) that they make sense architecturally for the building design. Architects consider what is needed, the cost, and space. They may not be efficient in all buildings. Gender is a sensitive issue regardless of whether it is cisgendered or transgendered we are talking about. If people are supporting unisex bathrooms where groups of men and women are all using the same sinks, stalls, etc. that is not somthing I support. Just because I accept diversity doesn't mean I support a complete deconstruction of identity. I don't want men in the bathroom with me, period. It may not be a popular view here but I think gender segregation in the bathrooms designed for multiple people to use at a time is a good thing. People have the right to complain about inappropriate behavior. Again, I don't believe we should lower the standards in society to the point where there are none at all. I don't care if a blatant drag queen uses the women's room. Sit down on the damn toilet and act accordingly. Besides, if the sign on the door says "WOMEN" then you should at least act somewhat like one. But all the gender deconstructionists will continue to disagree I'm sure. I do not buy into this "There is no such thing as gender" BS. People do have genders, people vary across gender lines, but it isn't just one big soup.
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Cindy

I agree with Britney,

There are standards of manners and protocol. OK I don't have a problem with DQ using the female loo, or DK's the male. But you act appropriately. It is just a matter of good manners, and manners are the oil that keep society moving. I would be offended if  'guys' came into the ladies loo and acted in such a way. And no I don't think my complaint would be sexist, I also get very annoyed by woman who don't know how to dispose of tampons or who leave mess on the seat. It's a matter of  respect for other people and I do think that is important.

JMO
Cindy
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glendagladwitch

I strongly disagree with requiring anyone to adhere to one of the two gender stereotypes in order to use the restoom.  I think people have a natural human right to present in a manner that defies gender stereotypes, and use any public restroom they please. 

For those of you who think it is inapproprite for a bio male, dressed as female and talking like a man, to use the women's room, how is it more appropriate for that person then to use the men's room?  Do you think that they deserve to be harassed no matter which restroom they use?  People who don't conform to gender stereotypes deserve to be harassed?  Really?

As for gender segregated bathrooms being "good," group unisex restrooms are very common in Europe, and they are growing in popularity.  All new public schools in the UK are being built with group unisex restrooms because the studies have shown that people are better behaved, and they are less likely to be used as common rooms.  The group unisex restrooms at the Mall of America have also shown good results.

I think it's high time that we, as a society, honestly reevaluate whether gender segregation is ever a good thing, or ever was a good thing.

As for me, as far as I'm concerned, the gender designation on a public restroom is just a suggestion, and I know that is actually the law in some states.  I think it should be the law everywhere.
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VeryGnawty

Quote from: glendagladwitch on January 25, 2011, 08:13:46 AM
I think it's high time that we, as a society, honestly reevaluate whether gender segregation is ever a good thing, or ever was a good thing.

I agree.  I see very little advantage over having two segregated restrooms, versus one very larger unisex room with double the facilities.
"The cake is a lie."
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rejennyrated

Quote from: VeryGnawty on January 25, 2011, 08:41:03 AM
I agree.  I see very little advantage over having two segregated restrooms, versus one very larger unisex room with double the facilities.
Whilst I can see the theoretical appeal I can only observe that in some places the men would have to radically improve their personal hygiene and toilet habits before this became an acceptable option.

Because of my odd past I only really used male "facilities" between the ages of about 17 and 23. My over-riding memory was of how SMELLY and disgusting male toilets smelled. Honestly those places universally STANK! To say nothing of the condition of the toilet seats etc.

Now I know that some ladies restrooms leave something to be desired in this area and indeed that not all toilet seats are clean - but honestly the problem is a whole order of magnitude less than when there are men involved.
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cynthialee

I have been a janitor before for a short stint.
Most the time the ladies is much more gross than the mens.

So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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rejennyrated

Quote from: cynthialee on January 25, 2011, 08:56:29 AM
I have been a janitor before for a short stint.
Most the time the ladies is much more gross than the mens.
Quite probably - it is mainly my perception of odour that is responsible.

I can smell male urine, for me it always has been super pungent.

Female urine, though it does have an odour, is much much much less offensive.

In the same way I have always been able to "smell" men, and indeed accurately identify peoples belongings by their scent on them... It's quite a neat party trick, although in this instance possibly colours my perceptions.
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