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Androgyne identity/terms and understanding

Started by Jaimey, January 27, 2011, 11:44:19 PM

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ativan

   I to just go with Androgyne. Much the way and reason as Pica Pica and Jaimey.
Pretty comfy with it. I also feel it's more of a blanket term for non-binary transgender.
   I understand how Bigender should be different from Androgyne, and it should by Emeralds definition. But definitions change a lot around here, and I have gone through enough terms including those mentioned along the way in this topic. I have felt all of them more than a few times and sometimes in combination or skipping my way around in them.
   I am an Androgyne. It says a lot, but it says very little about me personally. I think about all the terms and how personal they are to so many here. Especially people who are new and trying to find their way for the first time. It can be overwhelming and confusing to them. But I think that their first reaction to a term is to call themselves Androgyne. Not always, but that does seem to be the reaction if it is the first time they start looking and asking. We've seen it. It's like finding a little treasure. They have a name, a term. They feel less confused. Androgyne. Blanket term.
   From there, the terms become more refined. But, the definitions can be different to different people in how they personally want to use them. Not all, some are pretty well defined.
   But this is were it once again becomes confusing. Not to the person using the term, but others as a group. It makes us easy targets for misunderstandings among ourselves. It makes us easy targets for Binaries, if they wish to do so. It makes it easy to misunderstand us from the binaries point of view, which can lead them into the confusion also.
   I wonder if they have to be rude to get themselves out of a misunderstanding. I wonder if we get rude to them for a misunderstanding. I think it, and I've been saying it lately. But, just to make a point of it. Sort of a two way street, or as some have seen it, a double edge sword. I have to agree with both.
   I am for seeing if We can get a Topic pinned to the top of the topics list that isn't rude, isn't a warning, but a gesture to those who don't walk our walk, how certain attitudes and references can be rude and hurtful. And how we will also respect their feelings as best we can also.
   I think this is going to be the best bet on getting something done with Staff and Susan. If it's not, then I hope we find out soon. And maybe get some input from them as well? As staff, or just personally.
   Change the title here? I'm thinking we shouldn't even bring it up, as Jaimey said. And I think it would cause many disagreements among us. For What?
   Yep, thats my story and I'm stickin' to it. At least for now. Any agreements or disagreements? Nows the time to say something, Your Opinion. No matter who You are.
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Eva Marie

I settled on androgyne/genderfluid at first, because it seemed to fit me at the time. I later realized that there are triggers that flip me into girl mode. I'm not sure if these triggers were always there or they came about as i got older.

Anyway, my boy side is definitely an androgyne while my girl side is definitely not, so i guess i blur the line between androgyne and bigender a little  :P

Getting back to Jaimey's point - As TG people we're under a common umbrella, but there sure seems to be a lot of elbowing under that umbrella. Some of it may be intentional, and some of it may not. At any rate I believe that we should try to be thoughtful when we consider being critical of others. We haven't walked a mile in their shoes.

And in the end - it's just a label.

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Virginia

Well, you are are stuck with me even tho I self identify as bigender... :(
~VA (pronounced Vee- Aye, the abbreviation for the State of Virginia where I live)
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Shana A

Quote from: Sevan on January 29, 2011, 11:30:11 AM
Perhaps this area should be considered the "non-binary" area rather than androgyn. It's a thought.

As I recall, some of the bigender folk (who are no longer here) considered themselves to be binary.

Quote from: ativan on January 30, 2011, 11:56:22 PM
And maybe get some input from them as well? As staff, or just personally.
   Change the title here? I'm thinking we shouldn't even bring it up, as Jaimey said. And I think it would cause many disagreements among us. For What?

My personal input is that, while perhaps not a perfect option, the title seems to work OK enough as an umbrella term, and that more importantly, folks here in the androgyne forum are welcoming to a diversity of terms and ways of expressing ourselves.

Z
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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ativan

Quote from: Zythyra on January 31, 2011, 08:25:17 PM
As I recall, some of the bigender folk (who are no longer here) considered themselves to be binary.

My personal input is that, while perhaps not a perfect option, the title seems to work OK enough as an umbrella term, and that more importantly, folks here in the androgyne forum are welcoming to a diversity of terms and ways of expressing ourselves.

Z
I can see that as being true for some Bigenders, I wonder If I have in turn been offending them here, refering to the group as non-binary? I will stop it. But then I will have to go back to using Androgyne when referring to the group here as a whole. I hope that would be OK with Bigenders?

I totally agree with your personal input. Thank You.
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Virginia

Quote from: Zythyra on January 31, 2011, 08:25:17 PM
more importantly, folks here in the androgyne forum are welcoming to a diversity of terms and ways of expressing ourselves.

I certainly appreciate every effort not to offend by trying to use prefered terms, but THIS is the reason I feel comfortable here.
~VA (pronounced Vee- Aye, the abbreviation for the State of Virginia where I live)
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Jaimey

Quote from: Pica Pica on January 28, 2011, 06:19:05 PM
I've always felt, when it comes to offending - the blame is solely placed on the person being offended.
A person chooses to be offended more often than a person chooses to offend.

This.  I meant to highlight it earlier, but I forgot.  Sorry, Pica.  :)  I just feel like life is so much easier when we choose to not be offended.  It takes a lot of energy to be offended and get angry over things that really aren't that offensive and certainly weren't meant offensively.  There are times when a person does say or do something that is offensive and they need to have the situation explained to them, but I don't think I've ever really seen anything much on this forum that requires that sort of action. 

Peace is not only the better answer, but it's a lot easier.  :icon_bumdance-nerd:
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
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ZaidaZadkiel

That means that peace is for lazy people.

Therefore war is for active people.

I am a lazy bum. Then, I am a pacifist ass.

How's that for offensive :D
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Simone Louise

Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on February 01, 2011, 02:52:14 PM
I am a pacifist ass.

Be careful: heroes have been known to kill people with the jawbone of an ass.

That said, I am also a pacifist, and from a long line of activist pacifists.

S
Choose life.
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Jaimey

Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on February 01, 2011, 02:52:14 PM
That means that peace is for lazy people.

Therefore war is for active people.

I am a lazy bum. Then, I am a pacifist ass.

How's that for offensive :D

hahah!  I think I would say that peace is for those who don't like to waste energy that could be used elsewhere.  :P
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
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ativan

It's unfortunate that in this world, as it seems it has always been, peace has to be won by not being just that. Peaceful. It's really all that anyone wants. But we end up fighting about it.

I was very much an activist when it came to peace. I have been having PTSD issues on and off for a few yrs now. Oh well, I'm to old now for any of that kind of activism anymore. It's all I want anymore, even though I disturb the peace to many times.

Just please don't disturb me on a warm sunny day when I'm daydreaming of a perfect world, I don't want to be pissed off anymore.
But, it happens. I'll try not to rain on your parade. But just like everyone, I can't guarantee that.

For all you old hippies, one of my favorites...

Dreaming about the world as one
And I believe it could be
Something good's bound to come
For out on the edge of darkness
There runs the Peace Train

Cat Stevens

Peace man
Ativan



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chokhor

I guess I find the terminology somewhat inadequate - many of the terms are rooted in the framing of binary gender, or are not agreed upon and have no official canon to their meaning. However, the people who identify as androgyne seem the most similar to me in regard to where I fit in a gender context. I sort of dislike the label, though, because it is framed in the limited gender binary concept of 'man' and 'woman'. I saw something very funny online: "Labels are for soup cans". I concur.

In the context of a binary gender state of mind, I myself have a combination of masculine and feminine traits - honestly in that framing I think everyone has some permutation of both combined. I enjoy cooking, sewing, and have an artistic flair. I consider myself a musician, love doing interior decoration, have a sense for color and style, etc. but I also enjoy solving puzzles, making models, jets, cars, gadgets, camping, and travel. I've played team sports in my adolescence but I always felt alienated by the competitive intensity and the 'frat-boy' horseplay; in fact I was much more comfortable being in a group of women talking about hair or clothes (even though they thought I wasn't paying attention).

I would have been complacent to be confident in my uniqueness as a male a not consider myself transgendered (in fact, I have struggled to be in that boat for years) if it weren't for the fact that my feminine traits and interests blatantly extend across society's dictated gender line in terms of my appearance and clothing.

I have my own sense of style, and how I express myself. Since I cannot hide the feminine traits in my appearance this daily puts me at odds with society's expectations for gender roles. Mine are on full display and completely cross the 'gender-line'. When I looked at my situation from the perspective that I am a unique male and my expression is male, I find my definition of the male gender is at odds with society's definition. In that manner the term 'transgendered', I think, refers to the gender expectations set by our society and represents my status in relation to those perceived gender expectations. Since I, by appearance alone, cross that gender line, I am trans (across) gender (society's gender definition). There is soooo much baggage in a label, and I'd rather not assign it to myself, but it fits, and unfortunately labels carry with them a lot of baggage that doesn't define me (ie. the desire to be a physical woman, to look like a woman, etc.) I just want to be myself, screw gender and gender roles.

This conflict with gender expectations started me questioning what it is that defines the idea of gender. Gender is not sex - sex is basically your plumbing, and if the only thing you needed to be male was a penis then it wouldn't matter what you wear, what jobs you do, how you express your emotions, decorate yourself, etc. So what is gender if not that?

I came to the conclusion that gender is a 100% social construct. For some reason, humanity decided to take a full spectrum of traits, interests, physical properties - everything under the sun, and randomly assign it into 'male' or 'female'. Take colors for example. Pink is feminine, blue is masculine, etc. Physical characteristics: grace in movement is feminine, forcefulness is masculine, but both male and female can exhibit either. Let's not even get into the historical shift in gender traits over time (pink was for boys, blue for girls, tights were worn by men who spent a lot of time riding horses, etc.). It all seems to shift arbitrarily and the assignment is fuzzy from culture to culture. In Japan, speaking in a melodic tone is considered a feminine trait. I can think of many people here in the US that would easily cross Japan's societal gender line (in fact I think theirs is way stricter than our culture's).

Some gender studies academics say that the gender binary (male & female) is limited & inaccurate and state that there are three of four genders. Others say that each person has their own unique gender. The last group considers gender to be a social construct and that the idea doesn't work to define everybody.

Since I consider gender a social construct, and one that doesn't adequately define me (in fact it was stacked completely against me), it is easier for me to call myself transgendered, but more in the sense of trans meaning 'beyond' or 'through'. By using the word to define myself, I am stating that I reject the concept of gender and refuse to abide by its expectations or rules.

I  guess it really comes down to possibly needing a common understanding of four terms - masculine/male, feminine/female, gender, and transgendered.
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ativan

Welcome to the worlds busiest label place.

I like the take on Androgyne. To me it is a combination of two gender words that express the ends, so to speak, of gender. Together they make a new word that to me defines the middle ground between the two.
And it sounds better than malefemale or femalemale  :laugh:. Or maybe not, the more I look at them. Anyways, I am one of the stuck on Androgyne people.

I think it can be further brought down to masculine, feminine, female, male, gender and transgender.

Ativan (malefemale  :))
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Almond

the most important thing for a transgendered or transsexual person to keep in mind is to have a stable self image. some people get that from transitioning very far into the opposite binary, but others get that from becoming comfortable more or less where they already are. as I see it, being a part of the second type is what it means to be androgyne.
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Jaimey

Quote from: Almond on February 02, 2011, 09:12:15 PM
from becoming comfortable more or less where they already are.

That's a key statement for sure.  I think more than transition, more than finding labels, more than...any of the things we do to fit in or find our place, none of those is as comforting, I don't think, as just learning to be comfortable with who are.  That was the biggest step for me.
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
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rite_of_inversion

 I sort of think of third gender as more of the catch-all term, under which you have the following headings:

Androgyne, Neutrois, Bigendered, Genderqueer and maybe the happily Intersexed?

Androgyne doesn't necessarily seem to include neutrois-at least I wasn't under the impression neutrois people thought so, and I don't identify with neutrois strongly. Androgynes are a blend of the two main genders.

Neutrois people, as I understand it, are unhappy with secondary sexual characteristics(all of them or in part) and would like to eliminate them.

And Bigendered people... feeling a need to be a different gender on different days...well they are their own unique thing too. Not sure if they could be called androgyne either.

And does Genderqueering even count as a gender subtype? The deliberate habitual blurring of gender lines for the purpose of making it easier to do so in society, or just for the fun and chaos?

And what surgeons cavalierly do to Intersex babies...it's a human-rights violation. Unlesss there's a real medical need for surgery (like no opening for waste to evacuate, or, conversely, lack of a coherent sphincter) a child shouldn't have genital surgery performed on them until they're old enough to decide what they want done.
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Virginia

#36
As a bigender, I feel covered by the androgyne umbrella. Even though I am discretely male or female, I am not one or the other. Shrug. It's just a  different way of being both to me.

BUT...I started a poll on the bigender forum to get a more representative idea of what other folk think and will keep you all posted.
~VA (pronounced Vee- Aye, the abbreviation for the State of Virginia where I live)
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Pica Pica

I use the term androgyne, I like it because it didn't have any prior terms of reference for me. I pronounce it wrong because I always read it off the page - oddly enough I have gotten a bit of stick about this. You'd have thought that androgynes could excuse a personal interpretation of a word, wouldn't you?

I think it makes a decent umbrella. I used to refer to myself as pregender - that in terms of mental/self/gender type of development I had the same gender identity a young baby would have or maybe a toddler, who can express male, female roles and selves and still remain largely ungendered. I feel most of the gendering of children is done by society on the child rather than the child themselves and the concepts of male and female do not properly kick in until they reach 4 or 5 and start having the cognitive ability to compare themselves to other people and categories.

I now use the term androgyne to allow myself to relax and express all the parts of me - to allow myself to feel more authentic, alive and in touch with the rest of the world.

It also allows me to have a network (admittedly online) of other androgynes who are people I can identify with the way males can with females and females with males. True, there are many differences and even some things about other andros that are contrary to me, but I'm sure people feel that when looking at people of the same gender all the time.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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sfem

malefemale, femalemale. Both are too long. They lose because they are cumbersome. 21st century people are way too lazy for words with multiple syllables. Maybe fale will catch on instead, hmm? Or is the youtube fail videos thing too popular and would override people's reaction to fale?
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chokhor

I get the single syllable thing, laziness, societal tendencies, etc.

I refer to myself as Droĝ (pronounced 'draw-j') as a lazy short for Androgyne. The second syllable of the word has the dro from andro and the soft g from gyno.

I figure it can also fit into the drab (dressed as boy), drag (dressed as girl) dynamic as droĝ (dressed other gender).

The ĝ is optional, it just indicates the g is pronounced as in general or giant.

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