Susan's Place Logo

News:

Based on internal web log processing I show 3,417,511 Users made 5,324,115 Visits Accounting for 199,729,420 pageviews and 8.954.49 TB of data transfer for 2017, all on a little over $2,000 per month.

Help support this website by Donating or Subscribing! (Updated)

Main Menu

Question for all the guys out there!

Started by GQPAT, December 28, 2006, 08:57:49 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

GQPAT

Hey guys,

I was just curious about your opinion on this topic!  Okay...so I was hanging out with my butch/dyke friend the other day and we were talking about my coming-out-to-my-family (I'm MTF FYI) and then the topic switched to the topic of self-identifying as trans.  See, my friend has UBER-short hair, really butchy, wears a binder (and sometimes even a packer), has done all the reasearch/has even considered T, gets questioned for being in the women's washroom constantly, basically passes as male most of the time...to the point where she's taken aback when someone newly acquainted reads her as female.  But...okay...despite all this she is hesitant to identify with the term trans, even though her experience is (almost) parallel to a lot of her good FTM buddies!  The main reason she gave me for this hesitancy to identify as trans, is because the results of bottom surgery for trans-guys (ie: phalloplasty) is so pathetic (debatable)!  She believes that its much easier to identify as a very masculine-defined butch lesbian than as a FTM because she feels like without the phallus (and hence all it comes to represent in society)!  Like basically she's worried that if she were to transition (ie: adopt new name/pronouns, T, top-surgery) that she would feel inadequate as a man because of her genitals and, hence, her gender dysphoria would be even worse!!   Naturally, identifying as trans myself, I was very saddened by this, but being on the other side of the spectrum I was at a loss of what to say!  How do I, as someone who has considered ridding herself of her penis, tell my friend that life is not ALL about genitals?  I mean the only thing I could really think to say was that a few of our (mutual) FTM friends, now have clitorises that have grown to the point of being able to penetrate, due to T/metioplasty (sp?) but she replied by saying "But the REST OF SOCIETY doesn't think like that!"

Anyway....some thoughts on this topic would be nice!

Cheers: Pat
  •  

Nero

Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
  •  

colin_pdx

Hello Pat.

Hmm.  Your friend seems to be between a rock and a hard place, from your description.  I was wavering on whether I wanted to reply because this is 3rd party speculation based on a 2nd person account, but it's an interesting conundrum and one that is somewhat common, I think (under the umbrella of transgender).  As a transman, I certainly understand the hesitancy to transition.  It is not an easy road to travel.  Neither is non-normativity, though.  And as a guy who feels the desire/need to, at some point, have lower surgery, I also understand the concern about being a man without a (standard/functional) penis. 

My concern with statements like "the rest of society doesn't think like that" is that she already deals with oppression (confrontations or strange looks in public restrooms, etc) because "the rest of society" is uncomfortable with anything other than dichotomous heteronormative expressions.  Perhaps she thinks she is used to that, though. (I hated going into public bathrooms EVERY time and often did so with my then-breasts stuck out as an attempt to claim my right to be there.)  "The rest of society" can see and react to non-normative gender expression; however, they can't see and react to my lack of a penis.

That said, your concern that she would feel more dysphoric as a man without a penis may be justified.  That is also not easy to deal with, for many of us.  The difference for me is that I felt pretty detached from my genitals before I transitioned, so there's no change there.  (Well, detached in terms of looking, not playing!  The mind can do amazing gymnastics to change the focus from what is physically there to what one mentally, emotionally (and spiritually, for me) feels.)  I am no longer dysphoric, though, in terms of how I look with at least a pair of boxers on.  Testosterone really does wonders with fat distribution and musculature.  So, I'd say that, if your friend feels fine with her breasts and genitals, but binds and sometimes likes to pack, then the impetus to transition probably isn't that great.  If, however, she is simply not transitioning because "the rest of society" disapproves of a genetic female who becomes a man without a penis, then that is a difficult position to be in.  Any way you slice it, though, being transgender in this world at this time is a difficult position to be in.  It is a position that I have found incredibly profound, though.  I get the distinct pleasure of experiencing life outside the realm of conventionality.  And, as long as one identifies as post-conventional, what "the rest of society" thinks becomes less and less important.  Let them have their conformity cake and eat it too...it tastes like sawdust to me.  They can continue to delude themselves that it is sweet.  We all have our own little pet delusions anyway because what the hell is "reality" but largely a set of social constructions?  And now I am digressing...

Good luck and tread lightly, my friend.

Colin
  •  

Nero

If your friend is trans, his focus seems to be more on the physical aspects of manhood than of actually being a man. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I AM a man, regardless of having a female body. For this reason, I can't live as a butch woman, or any type of woman for that matter.
Were phalloplasty on par with MtF vaginoplasty, I still would not have it, or any type of genital surgery, possible loss of orgasm being one of the many reasons. There's only been a few instances in my life I've even noticed the lack of a penis, but I won't go into that here. ;)
Most of my gender dysphoria comes from needing to have the social role of a man and not the body itself.
I don't need a penis to be a man, I don't need testosterone to be a man (though I'll probably have it anyway).
Why would an FtM NEED a penis - think about it, he doesn't need it for any bathroom functions, he doesn't need it to achieve orgasm, he's already got adequate plumbing for all that.
There's only one situation in which one would ever need a penis - and well, I find no shame in using alternative objects for that.

Tell your friend, that, yes, he can be a man without the almighty phallus.
But if your friend is comfortable moving through the world as a woman, then maybe it's best he doesn't transition.

Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
  •  

Nero

Quote from: GQPAT on December 28, 2006, 08:57:49 AMNaturally, identifying as trans myself, I was very saddened by this, but being on the other side of the spectrum I was at a loss of what to say!  How do I, as someone who has considered ridding herself of her penis, tell my friend that life is not ALL about genitals? 
Forgot to address this question, honey.
I totally see why an MtF would have SRS. I'm having a masectomy because I need to be rid of that which is obviously female and I'm tired of binding. An MtF would need rid of something so obviously male and would be tired of tucking and hiding it. So, it's not all about the genitals, it's being tired of hiding them.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
  •  

GQPAT

Thanks a lot guys...your insight is very much appreciated!

Especially this part:

Tell your friend, that, yes, he can be a man without the almighty phallus.
But if your friend is comfortable moving through the world as a woman, then maybe it's best he doesn't transition.


Again...that helps put things in perspective!

Cheers: Pat
  •  

charmd

I am a female to male transsexual. Fourteen years ago I started gender re-assignment procedures but only got as far as the removal of my female organs - hysterectomy and so on, and am still stuck with a vagina - no more money!!

However, I am on hormone therapy, I have had my name changed legally - Caron to Charl and live totally as a male. I share az house with five other (real) guys who do not know that I do not have a penis or that I am any different to them. All people perceive me as a man. Even my mother sometimes calls me Charl - and that for her is very difficult.

I used to dream of the final operation, of the day that I would have a fully functional penis. But I have resigned myself to the fact that it may never happen. So, I am happy. I live in a man's world, even though I am trapped in a woman's body.

I discuss the whole issue on my website: www.geocities.com/qmunity

  •  

Scott

First of all let me make it clear I'm not here to judge ANYONE, I have a hard enough time keeping my own house in order. After reading your post about your friend I'd be concerned that any changes he/she would make right now may be premature.

I think before doing anything he/she may want to discuss the situation with a therapist before beginning transition just to be sure that the issue is about being trans. For me, I was willing to take ANYTHING I could get to show the world I am a man-- name change, deeper voice, facial hair, you name it (I was extra blessed with a very hairy chest). I wanted to finally be free even if it didn't include EVERYTHING that went with it. I would take as much as God was willing to give me. I was fortunate in that my chest was so small my friends questioned why I was even bothering with the top surgery, but I wanted that also and had my liposuction.

Now I am scheduled to have the final stage done (phalloplasty) soon. With God willing I will be able to do that, but if it falls through I will be dissappointed but okay, I'm very pleased by what the shots alone have given me.

In as much as the world sees me me, I am a man and it is only between me & my partner what it entails physically. Peace of mind is where it's at and I feel that for your friend that has to be top priority.

I pray everything works out for both of you on your respective journeys.

God bless,
Scott
  •