What do you think causes androgyny?

[Alex201]

I know it's probably different for everyone.

[wendy]

What are your thoughts?

What causes transsexuals?

My guess is how they feel.

[Sevan]

hmmm...my guess is the same for the rest of transsexual/transgender people. Hormone washing in the womb. My mother had/has PCOS which means she had a relatively high testosterone level when I was in her womb. I'd wager I didn't get washed with as much T as a transman...but clearly more than the adverage cis-woman.

That's my thought. Just varient of normal

[Alex201]

hmmm...my guess is the same for the rest of transsexual/transgender people. Hormone washing in the womb. My mother had/has PCOS which means she had a relatively high testosterone level when I was in her womb. I'd wager I didn't get washed with as much T as a transman...but clearly more than the adverage cis-woman.

That's my thought. Just varient of normal

that's what I was thinking too. Though I don't know if that's the case with me. Mines just more of a rejection of female role because I prefer more masculine expression.

[Sevan]

Well we *could* get into a huge "What is gender anyway" and "What about gender expression through out history"? Kind of conversation but that drives people to speak of fruitcake. (I SWEAR I'm not trying to derail that was just my first visible option to sneak it in there!!!)

*hem* I did the "What is gender" conversation for a good long while in the forums and in therapy for a good long while...decided that gender and gender expression was whatever I felt it to be and what made me comfortable in my skin (most days. 9 out of 10 is what I'm going for here.) Cuz there's always the concern about "What about my hair!? How do I feel about that?!" or the "omg I'm just too dang fat" or....any of that. But *gender* I've kinda...got down. Though I'm still not sure I could explain it....I tried once on the phone...almost wish I'd recorded that conversation!! Didn't have the forethought.

[wendy]

Interesting.

Both my parents have some genetic variations that could be passed to me.

I have never felt male.  I have done many things to change.  I have removed hair from my body and face.  I've removed the T producers.  I have less T than a 8 year old girl.  I've take e for 6 years.  No one even makes an occasional mistake.

Would you have preferred to look more male?   I would have preferred to look more female.

[Alex201]

Would you have preferred to look more male?   

oh yes...I'd love to look more male.

[wendy]

I've read that males that are very masculine or very feminine will have dramatic results from estrogen.  Vice-versa for FTM.  Therefore people that are more in the middle will not change as much.  I guess I looked more in the middle and did not have as dramatic results.  By the way I never could grow a full beard and I could skip a day of shaving and not look grubby.  It is nice to not have to shave at all!  People tell me I look good.  Amazing.

Hey T can take many years.  Maybe in 10 years you will masculinize if that is what you want.  E will not change my looks any longer.  I look very androgynous male.

[Eva Marie]

I was born around 1960, and the women in that era with troubled pregnancies were typically given pre natal vitamins with DES (diethylstilboestrol). I know my mom had a horribly troubled pregnancy with me, so she would have been a prime candidate for these vitamins. I've talked to her and she remembers taking vitamins prescribed by her doctor, but doesn't know if they had DES in them or not. The fact that they were prescribed by a doctor tells me that they were not your run of the mill vitamin.

Research has uncovered a possible link between DES and transgender male babies (do a search for "DES transgender"). There are also several physical side effects possible in DES sons, and i have most of them.

DES is my current working theory of why i am transgender/bigender. But i could be wrong - my birth medical records probably went into the trash years ago, so I have no way of knowing for sure. But the signs I have sure seem to point in that direction.

[wendy]

I was born around 1960, and the women in that era with troubled pregnancies were typically given pre natal vitamins with DES (diethylstilboestrol). I know my mom had a horribly troubled pregnancy with me, so she would have been a prime candidate for these vitamins. I've talked to her and she remembers taking vitamins prescribed by her doctor, but doesn't know if they had DES in them or not. The fact that they were prescribed by a doctor tells me that they were not your run of the mill vitamin.

Research has uncovered a possible link between DES and transgender male babies (do a search for "DES transgender"). There are also several noted physical side effects of DES, and i have most of them.

DES is my current working theory of why i am transgender. But i could be wrong - my birth records probably went into the trash years ago, so I have no way of knowing for sure. But the signs I have sure seem to point in that direction.

Interesting.  Do you know if the vitamins were used in mid-50's?

[Eva Marie]

Interesting.  Do you know if the vitamins were used in mid-50's?

Yes it was available in the 1950's; in fact those were some of the prime years for DES. DES was first synthesized in 1938, and was prescribed widely from 1940-1971 for pregnancy issues. I think that in the 1950s it was more likely to be prescribed in pill form rather than in a vitamin.

[ativan]

Damn! Hey Mom! I gotta question for you!! 

When I was born, it was in the labor room (they don't have those anymore). My mother said I wasn't that bad, just popped out.    Any relationship there?

I'm def gonna be looking this up tomorrow and talking to my mother, although I wonder if she would ever remember. Late 80's. That would explain a couple brothers and sisters. I have lots, anybody need one? 

[rite_of_inversion]

Back in the dark ages when my mom had me, it wasn't widely known how harmful smoking was to a developing fetus...in fact, in the fifties-when she grew up, ciggies were promoted as a cure for morning sickness!

This is probably why I've had health problems as severe as I have had, and why I was born prematurely, at just over five pounds, then dropped weight after birth to five pounds even. And had to be kept in an incubator for a month.  I was only half-baked, I guess...

Recently I happened to *ahem* be looking up natural aromatase inhibitors...and you talking about this suddenly made me think of a connection...nicotine is an aromatase inhibitor.

Aromatase inhibitors prevent estrogen formation...and as I understand it (I may well be quite incorrect)...

...Since you just have these generic sex hormone precursors floating around, that then get processed in the liver, well, if you add an aromatase inhibitor, what you end up with is more testosterone instead...

So maybe my mom's smoking while she was preggers had something to do with it?
That would be really weird.

Mis/ter Alex, I suspect it's just one of those weird things to do with brain structure that we just haven't figured out yet.   An accident  that occurs between development and genetic potential.  That's how most things work with humans, even with things that have strong heritability-like schizophrenia.

[Pica Pica]

I was born extremely small and premature, they pumped all sorts in me.
My mum's problems with me probably came from her job in a (prescribed) drug factory - many of the women on the belts had awkward pregnancies.

[Virginia]

My Mom lost two prematural babies before me in the late 1950's and although I cannot confirm she actually took DES, my wife and I are nearly certain the "vitamins" Mom took when she was pregnant with me contained the synthetic estrogen. My karyotype shows my DNA is normal XY but I have the long index finger, canted elbows and fairly andro features. I passed pretty well guy or girl before HRT. Thought about getting a FISH done, but a unicorn by any other name is ...still a unicorn.

[Alex201]

I fear if I were to get a brain scan my brain would come back as female. That's a thought that scares the ->-bleeped-<- out of me.

[Pica Pica]

Cause Androgyneness.

[Shana A]

What I said above is a fact that many people refuse to accept, and in doing so the chose to live in a place near reality

Perlita,

I would agree, based on my own personal experience of being androgyne, that it's likely a form of GID, with perhaps lower levels, not requiring the same level of treatment as TS. I do however question your comment about people not accepting this or choosing to live in a place near reality.

Z

[rejennyrated]

The search for causes is a very human trait, and Perlita has spoken eloquently of the current evidence,  which I agree with.

I however want to ask a more fundamental question which is does the cause really matter?

I decided a long time ago that the quest for causes and reasons for everything was a colossal con trick.

In my experience people often look for causes for one of two reasons, either to justify something which should need no justification, or to oppose something, which it is equally futile to oppose. Either point of view is that of an idiot.

As a committed AMORALIST - that is someone who does not acknowledge the desirability or validity of any externally moderated moral code, I firmly believe that nothing is inherently good or evil.
Things become labelled as good or evil depending on your own beliefs about them and unique point of view.

Thus most things do not actually need a "reason" to either support or oppose them. Many things just ARE.

Androgyny, for me, falls into that category.

[tekla]

I never read 'cause' in this sense to be 'reason' but something more akin to 'blame.'