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I just can’t really tell who’s like… seriously transgendered

Started by Father Way, March 23, 2011, 03:09:43 AM

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Brendon

Quote from: Rain on March 23, 2011, 09:06:32 PM
Yeah I am.  Say, a young girl goes online, seeing the word "transsexual" and then she goes "Hm, wonder what that is!"  So she googles it, and goes "Wow!  I must be transsexual because I hate my period too!"  So then she tries to get all involved, gets support, cuts her hair, "becomes" attracted to girls, insists everyone call her a "he", and loudly lets everyone who she is a proud transsexual and has embraced her manhood.  She complains all the time about being called a girl and having breasts and colors "->-bleeped-<- Pride!" on her notebooks and all that.  This goes on until time passes and she matures and realizes she really isn't a transsexual at all (the fad goes away).  So she just goes on with life as a normal female from then on.  I know it seems like she could have been, but it's often really hard to tell.  So, nothing you can do about it really.  They have to just grow up until they mature or can face the actual issue. (And no offensive to people who are doing this/did this.  I'm only talking about the fakers.  Everybody is different in how they discovered themselves, and if you went through this exactly then more power to you.)
If she legitimately believes herself to be transgender then I don't think it's really a fad. If she's not doing it to be trendy, but instead is doing it because she thinks that it might help her on the path to finding out who she is and how she identifies then there is not a problem. If she was identifying as trans just because she thought it was cool, that would be another thing entirely. The wording in this honestly makes me a little uneasy, because I don't think anyone in the situation you described could really be described as a "faker". It was the right choice for them at the time.  :-\


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Padma

Kohdy, when I though of gendercurious, I was pleased because it also deliberately avoids using 'trans-' (which to me still implies some kind of transition taking place), and instead validates just exploration without requiring a 'transition identity'.

I'm not the first person to coin it, as it turns out (no big surprise). I have no investment in it catching on here (well, hardly any...:))
Womandrogyne™
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tekla

It's like with everything else, there's always a bunch of asses giving the larger group a bad name.

1% is the standard theory here, taking off from a reference to a statement by the American Motorcycle Association that 99 percent of American motorcyclists are law-abiding. The association made this statement denouncing a violent incident between two early outlaw biker groups in Hollister, California, in 1947.  The AMA denies ever saying this, still it has stuck and spread to other areas.

But that's not who were really talking about.  The problem comes not from the asses, since those 1% people - by nature - are not listening to anyone else anyway. Christine Jorgenson, Jameson Green, and Rennie Richards were 1%ers, most pioneers are.  They too were accused of all sorts of stuff, including the feared 'giving some group a bad name.'   

Nope, this problem comes from those who are seen to be now joining in, piling on, faking it, being some sort of gender poseurs, interlopers, or those who have just absently-minded just sort of wandered in.  Or so it would seem.

What you have here is the the problem of listening to those who would take the anecdotal evidence of their own life (hardly a source of objective knowledge) and extol it as gospel, and 'The Way' - and the "Right" way, or "Real" way at that, as someone said on the first page.  So statements like: If I had been able to take T two years ago I would not have been ready emotionally, fit in perfectly.  Or, two years ago but I have evolved SUBSTANTIALLY

I mean just because you were not ready 2 years ago what proof do we have that:
a) everybody else was/was not ready in the same amount of time as you were,
b) that two more years made you more ready (would 4 years then have made you 2x as ready?)
c) would ten more years make you ten times more evolved,
- but mostly -
d) what do your very limited (we're talking a set of one), and highly personal experiences have to do with making decisions for an entire group of people?

So, here we are after decades and decades of trying to open up this process to all who would benefit from it now debating making it harder because 'those ->-bleeped-<-s now, they're not like we were, no, they are not as serious etc.'

What funny (at least to me because I worship irony) is that the arguments some people are now using on others are EXACTLY the same arguments that were used on them.

You know what, even if it is trendy (oh do people hate to be told their little rebellion is just a fad), or a bad choice, or a flat out stupid choice (as it's going to prove for a whole lot of people, but then again so are marriage and college just to name two other huge mistakes for most people) we can be sure about two things.
1. It's not YOUR choice.
2. It's most likely not even your place to say.

I wonder - well I do more than that actually - if a lot of what I'm reading above is that as this phenomena (much better word than 'trend') grows (because understanding, services, theories and treatments has both expanded and in many cases been reduced in price so it's open to more people) if the real problem is that as all that happens it becomes less of a thing, less of 'special' deal, and more of an everyday occurrence and that in some way detracts from you being special.  And that's the problem, their standing up saying "Look at me" takes away from the number of people who are looking at you.

there are people who transition who would never have even wanted to live as men if they didn't know the option was there.
So we should shut down the net, hide what we know, cut back on education and outreach?  I mean, that was exactly and precisely the point of doing all of that in the first place. 

it's kind of a "where do we draw a line" question.
Where we draw the line is of much less interest to me than who gets to draw that line - that tends to be the problematic issue.  And, the line was drawn years ago - amidst much argument - that 'if you say you are, you are.'  That it.  That's all.  No matter how much or little HRT/GCS you have had, or how much RLT you've lived through - if you say you are, you are.

So now you want to push that back a little?  A lot?  And who decides?  Having given into demand, the TS professional ranks (mostly medical) have grown in both numbers and power, and they tend to be in control over most of the process, should that power be taken away?  If so, who should the new gatekeepers be?  What would their set of hoops look like?

Sounds a lot to me like the old California distinction between a conservationist and a developer.

The conservationist is the guy who is already living in his house on the hill, the developer is the guy who now wants to build his house on the hill.

Really, y'all are beginning to sound like Gramps prattling on about how back in the day he had to walk five miles through the snow, uphill both ways, just to get HRT when he's not yelling at the kids to get off his lawn.

Be very, very, very careful about calling down others for being 'not real', fake, in it for the wrong reasons, having not 'really thought it out and thought it through', least any of those standards come back to haunt you.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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wheat thins are delicious

Quote from: tekla on March 24, 2011, 10:47:18 AM
It's like with everything else, there's always a bunch of asses giving the larger group a bad name.

1% is the standard theory here, taking off from a reference to a statement by the American Motorcycle Association that 99 percent of American motorcyclists are law-abiding. The association made this statement denouncing a violent incident between two early outlaw biker groups in Hollister, California, in 1947.  The AMA denies ever saying this, still it has stuck and spread to other areas.

But that's not who were really talking about.  The problem comes not from the asses, since those 1% people - by nature - are not listening to anyone else anyway. Christine Jorgenson, Jameson Green, and Rennie Richards were 1%ers, most pioneers are.  They too were accused of all sorts of stuff, including the feared 'giving some group a bad name.'   

Nope, this problem comes from those who are seen to be now joining in, piling on, faking it, being some sort of gender poseurs, interlopers, or those who have just absently-minded just sort of wandered in.  Or so it would seem.

What you have here is the the problem of listening to those who would take the anecdotal evidence of their own life (hardly a source of objective knowledge) and extol it as gospel, and 'The Way' - and the "Right" way, or "Real" way at that, as someone said on the first page.  So statements like: If I had been able to take T two years ago I would not have been ready emotionally, fit in perfectly.  Or, two years ago but I have evolved SUBSTANTIALLY

I mean just because you were not ready 2 years ago what proof do we have that:
a) everybody else was/was not ready in the same amount of time as you were,
b) that two more years made you more ready (would 4 years then have made you 2x as ready?)
c) would ten more years make you ten times more evolved,
- but mostly -
d) what do your very limited (we're talking a set of one), and highly personal experiences have to do with making decisions for an entire group of people?

So, here we are after decades and decades of trying to open up this process to all who would benefit from it now debating making it harder because 'those ->-bleeped-<-s now, they're not like we were, no, they are not as serious etc.'

What funny (at least to me because I worship irony) is that the arguments some people are now using on others are EXACTLY the same arguments that were used on them.

You know what, even if it is trendy (oh do people hate to be told their little rebellion is just a fad), or a bad choice, or a flat out stupid choice (as it's going to prove for a whole lot of people, but then again so are marriage and college just to name two other huge mistakes for most people) we can be sure about two things.
1. It's not YOUR choice.
2. It's most likely not even your place to say.

I wonder - well I do more than that actually - if a lot of what I'm reading above is that as this phenomena (much better word than 'trend') grows (because understanding, services, theories and treatments has both expanded and in many cases been reduced in price so it's open to more people) if the real problem is that as all that happens it becomes less of a thing, less of 'special' deal, and more of an everyday occurrence and that in some way detracts from you being special.  And that's the problem, their standing up saying "Look at me" takes away from the number of people who are looking at you.

there are people who transition who would never have even wanted to live as men if they didn't know the option was there.
So we should shut down the net, hide what we know, cut back on education and outreach?  I mean, that was exactly and precisely the point of doing all of that in the first place. 

it's kind of a "where do we draw a line" question.
Where we draw the line is of much less interest to me than who gets to draw that line - that tends to be the problematic issue.  And, the line was drawn years ago - amidst much argument - that 'if you say you are, you are.'  That it.  That's all.  No matter how much or little HRT/GCS you have had, or how much RLT you've lived through - if you say you are, you are.

So now you want to push that back a little?  A lot?  And who decides?  Having given into demand, the TS professional ranks (mostly medical) have grown in both numbers and power, and they tend to be in control over most of the process, should that power be taken away?  If so, who should the new gatekeepers be?  What would their set of hoops look like?

Sounds a lot to me like the old California distinction between a conservationist and a developer.

The conservationist is the guy who is already living in his house on the hill, the developer is the guy who now wants to build his house on the hill.

Really, y'all are beginning to sound like Gramps prattling on about how back in the day he had to walk five miles through the snow, uphill both ways, just to get HRT when he's not yelling at the kids to get off his lawn.

Be very, very, very careful about calling down others for being 'not real', fake, in it for the wrong reasons, having not 'really thought it out and thought it through', least any of those standards come back to haunt you.

So well written.  I agree so hard with all of this but am not near a good enough writer or thinker to have put it down like this. 


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insideontheoutside

Quote from: tekla on March 24, 2011, 10:47:18 AM
it's kind of a "where do we draw a line" question.
Where we draw the line is of much less interest to me than who gets to draw that line - that tends to be the problematic issue.  And, the line was drawn years ago - amidst much argument - that 'if you say you are, you are.'  That it.  That's all.  No matter how much or little HRT/GCS you have had, or how much RLT you've lived through - if you say you are, you are.

So now you want to push that back a little?  A lot?  And who decides?  Having given into demand, the TS professional ranks (mostly medical) have grown in both numbers and power, and they tend to be in control over most of the process, should that power be taken away?  If so, who should the new gatekeepers be?  What would their set of hoops look like?

Who decides is not us as far as it comes to a medical or legal level. Psychologists decided a long time ago for all of us that we're all mentally ill. Over time those psychologists have "lessened" that to a "disorder" but they're still the ones making the real decisions about who is and who isn't. To me, most of them have no business making those decisions, but we're all stuck with that and the consequent medical requirements and laws put into place, etc. So at best, it will be the medical field deciding - at worst it could be some conservative, bible-banging judge.

The power that we have is whether to get in or stay out of the system. For many, there's really no choice because they're facing suicide if they can't do something to align the body with the mind - so they're basically forced into the system and have to play by the system's rules. Many people willingly get into the system, but may find out that it wasn't what they were looking for. That's their personal choice though, it's not for me to say.

I think what some people are getting at is that since it's one of those drastic life choices, the upper choices (medical treatments beyond simple therapy) in the system should be more in favor of helping those who can not go on without treatment rather than those who are just questioning. Going to college or getting married is not going to change your physical gender.

However, you can go down to a body piercing shop and put 18 rods through your dick if that's what floats your boat and there's no law against that. You don't have to go to a shrink first and tell him all about your life and why you feel your life would be better with a bunch of metal pierced through your body.

Why are some things considered "body modification" and can be done at a private business and other things like taking HRT to change your body in such a way as to develop breasts or grow a beard require you to jump through a myriad of hoops? (Besides the obvious that HRT requires a prescription, of course.) Getting tattoos, piercing your body, etc isn't changing your gender. That's where the gist of all of this lies. Gender is society's pandora's box - it's still some taboo thing, unlike getting a tattoo. No matter whether people want to admit it or not, changing your gender just goes too much against the grain of society's constructs so of course there's going to be a lot more hoopla over that.

The more segments of the society open up and we have 23+ terms for various ways people view their gender or sexuality it'll only complicate the system. Can someone who identifies as genderqueer get HRT or surgery? Will there one day be HRT shops alongside piercing shops? That's the type of "line" I'm talking about but we're still not the ones to have the final say where it's drawn. We can come up with 100 different definitions for ourselves and those can work out just fine in our private lives but it won't work throughout society (or in every part of the world). If you go to the doctor, they're still going to want you to check off "M" or "F" so they can base their medical treatment of your physical body on your chosen selection (unless of course you're intersex or have undergone surgery and then you can put a check box in both or neither and then do some explaining).
"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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Sean

"You are who you say you are" is a very adult way of thinking and being. It's not wrong. But it has very little to inform us about how children and adolescents should be treated. If I sound like a grampa in my own lawn chair, so be it. I still don't tihnk "kids these days" should have the same set of choices that adults do, because I think it's pretty clear that youth don't have the same ability to process information or the same self-awareness that adults do.

Kids have rights too. What's been happening to intersexual, transsexual and other gender variant, non-binary or noncomforing youth and teens is absolutely horrible. I think what you've shared in other threads (insideontheoutside) is absolutely horrifying, and of course, it calls into question WHO has been allowed to make decisons about treating kids who are incapable of consenting or deliberately lied to.

At the same time, there SHOULD be some form of recognition that how we treat young people when the brain is nowhere near finished developing and identity is not remotely fixed or understood need NOT mirror how we treat adults or wish ourselves to be treated.

There ARE laws against getting a tattoo or shoving metal through your body if you are below a certain age.

The fact that the people in power have oppressed and mistreated trans people (and others) does not mean that the best reaction is eliminating ALL barriers to free choice and consent, even for people whose age and brain development means that they are INCAPABLE of actual free choice and consent.

Kids are not miniature adults. Teenagers are not miniature adults. They are real people with real problems and real needs, and they need these problems solved with solutions that can acknowledge the role of information, consent & choice in age-appropriate ways. It does everyone a disservice to suggest that we are all the same or that adult experiences can be translated or projected onto the experience of children and teenagers to extrapolate or predict what can or should happen.
In Soviet Russa, Zero Divides by You!
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insideontheoutside

Quote from: Sean on March 24, 2011, 03:21:16 PM
There ARE laws against getting a tattoo or shoving metal through your body if you are below a certain age.

Yeah you're totally right there - under 18 you really do not have choices in that front along with many others because in our society you're not "legal" until after that age.

And you bring up a lot of excellent points that I totally left out - the under 18, youth crowd is totally different from the adult crowd (and really, even when you are 18 that doesn't magically change your brain ... hell I wouldn't have even considered myself as adult and mature at age 25!) and that has to be acknowledged. The teen years in general are an exploratory realm where you're trying to figure stuff out, you're more easily influenced by what your friends/peers are doing, etc.

Kids do have rights, but the adults in their lives are still left to make decisions when it comes to medical treatments, etc. By all means they should be allowed therapy and other forms of help and guidance.
"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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Padma

This is true - though for me it's an issue not of "rights" but of responsibility. If someone's not able to be responsible yet (e.g. through immaturity), someone else (or the state) has to take that on for them until they can be - and ideally is teaching them how to be responsible, but that's another story!

EDIT: and of course, one person at 16 can be way more mature and responsible than the next 25-year-old, which is where part of the problem lies. Societies generally operate on a one-size-fits-all system when it comes to age and consent and so on, and each one assumes it's got it right - but then why are ages of consent (for all kinds of different activities) so different in different countries? And why is it always assumed that you're able to make a responsible decision younger, if the choice you're making happens to be the "normal" one (e.g. different ages of consent for gay/het sex)?
Womandrogyne™
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VeryGnawty

Quote from: insideontheoutside on March 24, 2011, 02:48:19 PMWe can come up with 100 different definitions for ourselves and those can work out just fine in our private lives but it won't work throughout society

That sounds like a problem with society, not with me.
"The cake is a lie."
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insideontheoutside

Quote from: VeryGnawty on March 24, 2011, 05:16:26 PM
That sounds like a problem with society, not with me.

And we are subject to "society's problems". We also can't expect the whole world to just acknowledge whatever personal definition we come up with next. Sure someone can say, "I'm now male, but I was born female" but because that deals with gender society then deals with it a certain way. Someone can also say, "I am now a genderless banana, even though I was born male". Yes, that's a flippant example but society and all its laws and rules and regulations does not have a place for genderless bananas. You can call yourself whatever you want but in "the system" you have to deal with what's set up.
"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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NightWing

Quote from: yoxi on March 24, 2011, 03:15:35 AM
Reading back over this, I'm finding myself wanting to make a further distinction. I'm not that comfortable with the term "faker" - I get that there are a small number of people who get into things because they need the attention; or because they need to divert the attention away from something else they can't cope with right now (and I think coping strategies are not to be dismissed, they got most of us as far as we are today!) and I think "faker" is pretty harsh, but I can see how it fits from the point of view of people genuinely dealing with gender issues who are frustrated with being lumped in with the above.

But I think there's a category we've been referring to here of people who are in some way genderfluid, but aren't ready to do more than dip their toes into it and see how it feels; and that's not "faking" in my book, so I've decided to take a stab at coining a new term for them: how do you like "gendercurious"? :)

Hmmm, this is true.  I'll have to re-think some of what I said, because that's a good point.
  •  

Marvel

QuoteI talked to a kid who has posted near complains about trending(?) FTM. She said something along the line of "many of them are transgendered/transsexual just to be different or attention or for fashion" So I asked her why because it wasn't first time seeing this and I'm thinking is that something have to do with masculinity or fitting into the traditional male stereotype? I didn't ask her more because she didn't sound want to be bothered so.. 

sound to me like some transphobic butch lesbian  blogger got to this kid
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VeryGnawty

Quote from: insideontheoutside on March 24, 2011, 05:49:51 PMSomeone can also say, "I am now a genderless banana, even though I was born male". Yes, that's a flippant example but society and all its laws and rules and regulations does not have a place for genderless bananas. You can call yourself whatever you want but in "the system" you have to deal with what's set up.

Then I'll make the system deal with genderless bananas.
"The cake is a lie."
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Espenoah

My opinion: It's not really our business to decide who's "fake" and who's "real." Leave that for the person themselves to decide.
"If a bullet should enter my brain, let that bullet destroy every closet door." -Harvey Milk
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Padma

I agree - let's start by giving them the benefit of the doubt. And by being honest with ourselves (for example, the question "Am I more likely to think of someone as 'faking' if I don't like them very much anyway?" is probably worth asking).
Womandrogyne™
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Father Way

Quote from: Espenoah on March 25, 2011, 02:45:31 AM
My opinion: It's not really our business to decide who's "fake" and who's "real." Leave that for the person themselves to decide.

That's what I've been thinking. It's not our place to say who's real and who's not.

Yoxi: thanks for coming up with the term "gendercurious" ;)
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Darrin Scott






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