More natural then we think ?

[espo]

I hope no one goes ape ->-bleeped-<- on me for asking this but a friend and I were talking about different aspects of what genderqueer may or may not be and it was commented that even ci-people, for the most part, have a feminine side and a masculine side.  They may not connect to it as strongly as we do but when a ci-male cries at a chick flick (and they do) is that boardering genderqueer if they allow themselves the right to cry ? or allows themselves to take a bubble bath and enjoy it ?

Are we just a tad more 'into' or 'acknowledging of' the yin/yang of ourselves ?   I was also thinking that since it takes the DNA of a man and woman to form a child, maybe every single person in the world has the potential of being male/female if they open themselves up to that possibility, like they dont shove one gender down because their body reflects only one..... usually ..... not always.

What do you guys think ?

[Jaimey]

I think the first thing I'd point out is that a guy crying isn't a guy being feminine.  Crying isn't an exclusively feminine thing.  The whole "boys don't cry" is a social construction.  Some guys were taught that, some weren't, so saying that a guy crying at a chick flick is bordering on genderqueer isn't right and that's because genderqueer is a GENDER and crying is just a human BEHAVIOR, a natural process that everyone is capable of.

People who are genderqueer or androgyne or whatever term you want to use are not male/female gendered.  Some people are born cisgendered, some people aren't.  I don't think someone can change their gender identity just by opening themselves to it...rather it's more that people who "change" their identity weren't the first gender to begin with.  Learning and accepting that your gender and physical sex don't match up can be difficult, so I just don't buy that someone can change their identity or become male/female just by opening themselves up to it. 

Having said that, I do think it's possible for someone to have sex with anyone, in spite of their orientation.  I chose that because I feel like sex is one of those things we can open our minds to.  Sex is about feeling good, gender is who you are.  I don't know if that makes sense (and no, I'm not equating gender and sexuality before anyone says that I am), but it does in my head. 

[Juliet]

I think the first thing I'd point out is that a guy crying isn't a guy being feminine.  Crying isn't an exclusively feminine thing.  The whole "boys don't cry" is a social construction.  Some guys were taught that, some weren't, so saying that a guy crying at a chick flick is bordering on genderqueer isn't right and that's because genderqueer is a GENDER and crying is just a human BEHAVIOR, a natural process that everyone is capable of.

Would you be able to give a better example of something considered feminine then?

[rite_of_inversion]

It's very difficult to winkle out the essentials of what a gender is, and what a gender role is, and what's just a gender expectation...or even worse, a gender stereotype.

It's something that's very hard to pin down, isn't it?

Crying at a sad movie isn't an emotionally reserved thing to do.  Male gender expectations and stereotypes are that of reserved emotionality.   

So you can be an otherwise ordinary hetero cisguy who opens up the waterworks at sad movies. *Shrug*

What I'd like to see is a world where tough guys can bawl their eyes out at movies, and pretty girls can kick butt.

[wheat thins are delicious]

They may not connect to it as strongly as we do but when a ci-male cries at a chick flick (and they do) is that boardering genderqueer if they allow themselves the right to cry ? or allows themselves to take a bubble bath and enjoy it?

LOL No, that's not how gender works. 

Would you be able to give a better example of something considered feminine then?

Every society's stereotypes of what is feminine and masculine is different in small and large ways from everyone elses.

[Padma]

What I'd like to see is a world where tough guys can bawl their eyes out at movies, and pretty girls can kick butt.

Hey, you just need to get out to Europe for that - I have a Serbian friend, and she tells me that around the table at mealtimes, it would be really unusual if someone wasn't crying, the men as often as the women, and it's just a different cultural norm. Like how in India, men hold hands in public, and women hold hands in public, but men-and-women just don't. We're each stuck in a particular cultural or subcultural norm-set. I've been part of SNAG* subcultures where it's seen as weird and unacceptable not to be vulnerable and in touch with your feelings as a man.

I agree, it's virtually impossible to tease out the nature from the "nurture" (read: social programming), so I tend to think in terms of the difference between male/female (for simplicity's sake - not assuming it's as binary as that) and masculine/feminine. Sort of loosely biology vs. socialising. I have a gender identity, a sexual identity, a sexuality, and a sexual orientation. Oy.

And when it comes to men/women and emotion, it just seems to me that each gender has an official socially acceptable range of emotion - so for example in mainstream Western culture, women can be upset, men can be angry, but not the other way around - or in SNAGsville, it's the opposite!

*SNAG - NZ-coined acronym, I think: Sensitive New Age Guy

[espo]

Do you think there is such a thing as gender then?  Like what if there isn't gender just a male sex and female sex.  If society determines what a gender is and isn't then maybe it's just the roll the male gender plays is what I got going on inside of me.
I'm definitely a little confused on all this.

[Juliet]

So everyone says that crying at a chick flick isn't feminine.  So I ask again, could someone, ANYONE, give me a better example of what would be considered feminine?
Shooting down someone's example without providing a better one isn't going to help the conversation move forward.

[Padma]

Well, I personally think that each quality that's labelled either masculine or feminine within any particular culture is actually just a human quality, that people all have the capacity to embody regardless of gender. There may be a statistical likelihood that one gender exhibits a quality more than any of the other genders within a given culture, but who can tell for sure to what extent that's just a product of cultural conditioning?

So for me, there are no genuinely masculine or feminine qualities, that's just a convention.

Others will disagree .

[wheat thins are delicious]

Well, I personally think that each quality that's labelled either masculine or feminine within any particular culture is actually just a human quality, that people all have the capacity to embody regardless of gender. There may be a statistical likelihood that one gender exhibits a quality more than any of the other genders within a given culture, but who can tell for sure to what extent that's just a product of cultural conditioning?

So for me, there are no genuinely masculine or feminine qualities, that's just a convention.

Others will disagree .

I agree with this.  It's a lot how I feel about the subject of feminine vs masculine

Do you think there is such a thing as gender then?  Like what if there isn't gender just a male sex and female sex.  If society determines what a gender is and isn't then maybe it's just the roll the male gender plays is what I got going on inside of me.
I'm definitely a little confused on all this.

Yes there is such a thing as gender.  But our society's definition of gender (male, female, whatever) is not always the same as another societies.   I don't see why you need to label it so hard.  I look at what my current society's view of men and women's gender roles/stereotypes are and say I fit in better with men and I feel like physically I should be the male sex.

[babykittenful]

Well, I personally think that each quality that's labelled either masculine or feminine within any particular culture is actually just a human quality, that people all have the capacity to embody regardless of gender. There may be a statistical likelihood that one gender exhibits a quality more than any of the other genders within a given culture, but who can tell for sure to what extent that's just a product of cultural conditioning?

So for me, there are no genuinely masculine or feminine qualities, that's just a convention.

Others will disagree .

I totally agree with you on this part, being male or female is really more about how you perceive yourself and how others perceive you then it is about specific behavior.

To take the ideas of Julia Serano, it is the result of oppositional sexism that people are thought that "female" characteristics are opposite to "male" characteristics. It is a fact that there are behaviors toward which males are naturally more attracted, given that they are constantly under the influence of testosterone and have a slightly different brain organization then female brains and vice versa. However, the influence of hormones and biology can only be that: an influence. The real cause of behaviors are peoples humanity, their experiences and their personality.

You want male stereotypes? Competition, physical aggressiveness, heterosexuality... These behaviors probably are the result of male "biological" influence. Can you meet a "real" male without these characteristics? Of course you can! Does that makes them any less male? Of course not! There always variation within any population of any traits, regardless of their link to gender. To label these males as "more females" simply because they show a behavior that is less typical to that of other males would be as idiotic as labeling someone who like being under water a lot as being closer to a marine mammal then he'd be to a human. Behaviors, being born of a very complex brain, can't be categorized so easily.

Transsexuals and genderqueer define themselves as such precisely because they identify as such. What makes a person transgendered is the desire that that person has to be and to be seen as a member of a different gender. In that case, the transsexualism of genderqueerness that is certainly going to play an important role in the "male" or "female" behaviors that this person will display. However, it would be very presumptuous to say that anyone displaying any non-gender-traditional behaviors has some part of themselves that is trans. It is simply the result of natural fluctuations of natural traits, hence why you see MtF who still display "male" behaviors and FtM who keep on dear "female" habits because it is part of what makes them being... themselves.

In short, sex can affect behaviors trough hormone and brain organization, but in the end, there is much much more involved.

[Juliet]

I totally agree with you on this part, being male or female is really more about how you perceive yourself and how others perceive you then it is about specific behavior.

But how can anyone (including oneself) perceive you as either masculine or feminine without considering behavior?

[Jaimey]

But how can anyone (including oneself) perceive you as either masculine or feminine without considering behavior?

Well, crying in a movie isn't enough to make that determination.  Physical looks are probably more considered than anything else and then after that, it would be more in mannerisms and the way you carry yourself.  Men and woman, for example, walk differently (if for no other reason than differences in build, particularly in the hip region).  So if a female bodied person changes their walk to look more like a man's, the perception should be that that person is more masculine.  Those subtle clues identify you intuitively to other people.  If you cry in a sad movie, you cried because you are sad, not because you are feminine.

It's extremely difficult to separate actual behaviors from established societal stereotypes, which is what everyone is saying.  The idea of a man crying at a chick flick is only "feminine" when looking at stereotypes of a culture where crying is perceived as feminine.  I've been in my dad's church where everyone, men and women, start crying as soon as the preacher or whoever says, "now turn around and hug your neighbor."  I was completely weirded out, despite being a member of the female sex.  Does that make those men feminine and me masculine?  No.  It's a culture thing.  That's the culture of that particular church in rural Kentucky and I was an outsider to that church's culture.  So it's not as simple as saying, "this behavior is feminine, that behavior is masculine."

There are some studies about male/female brains that say certain styles of thinking are more prevalent in one sex than the other, but those results aren't mutually exclusive, they're just patterns that have been observed.  You could also look at speech patterns where women do tend to use more adjectives and more specific adjectives (maroon or scarlet vs. red) than men, but again, that could be either a result of culture or just an observable pattern.

[Juliet]

Wait- someone's physical looks determine if they are masculine or feminine? (and mannerisms/the way you carry yourself definitely counts as behavior! Though I agree they are important indicators)

...Well, crying in a movie isn't enough to make that determination.  Physical looks are probably more considered than anything else and then after that, it would be more in mannerisms and the way you carry yourself.  ...

But how can anyone (including oneself) perceive you as either masculine or feminine without considering behavior?

[wheat thins are delicious]

Wait- someone's physical looks determine if they are masculine or feminine? (and mannerisms/the way you carry yourself definitely counts as behavior! Though I agree they are important indicators)

Also clothing can be an indicator (related to physical looks I guess) but really I don't think it matters if you can actively tell if someone is femme or masc.  I mean it's not a big deal what that person does/how they identify themselves. Why the hangup on it?

[Jaimey]

Wait- someone's physical looks determine if they are masculine or feminine? (and mannerisms/the way you carry yourself definitely counts as behavior! Though I agree they are important indicators)

To your average Jane/Joe, yeah.  It's not how you determine your own identity, but when someone sees you on the street, they are going to make a judgment based on the way you look, whether that judgment is male/female, clean/dirty, put-together/sloppy, etc..  Since we were working with the "a man crying at a movie" bit, I assumed were talking outside judgments, not inward ones.

If someone sees a guy crying, they don't automatically think, "he's feminine!"  Most people would just think, "oh, he must be sad" or "I wonder why that dude's crying?" 


Edit: by "physical looks" I actually meant presentation, not actual biological physicality, although build is also something people will judge you on.

[lucaluca]

to be honest... i did not read the other replys, because im too busy at the moment.

but i have to say, your question is GREAT!!! because i have an answer  and i am more curious what other people say to my answer 

it is not his feminine side, when a guy cries watching a chick flick. it is not  her masculine side, when a girl likes to drink beer and watch soccer.

THAT IS THE HUUUUUGE PROBLEM... people tend do categorize someone because he likes ballet or she like monster truck (just an example).
as long as you don't have the inner feeling that you should supposed to be the other gender you are what you are, a male or a female. it doesn't matter what you do, because that does not define you (at least it doesn't define your gender).
i speak from my own experience! clothes, hobbys etc. all of that is a cultural thing. imagine men would wear dresses and make up there is no god (don't wanna offend someone) who says that only girls can wear make up, or only boys can play football.

the point is... if you are male (and you are not a transsexual) you can like, do whatever you want and it does't make you any less male!!! why? well i guess is said that before

hope you understand

tell me what you think

[babykittenful]

There is one thing I'd like to point out about the example of the man crying in a cinema.

Let's say someone is looking at that man and thinks: "That man ain't a real man! Real man don't cry!"

If we analyze in detail what that person is thinking, he begins by gendering the person he sees as a male ("That man [...]"), and then, he poses a judgment about the fact that this person is crying (being that real male shouldn't cry). Does that really mean that this person really think that he is "less man" and therefore, "more female"?

If we really think about it, the witness here considers that crying at a movie while being a female is ok, because it is a female accepted behavior. But since in this situation, it is a man that is crying, that is not acceptable. If crying made that "male" became more "female" , then there wouldn't be any problem with that person crying. Instead of being shocked, the witness would simply have thought: "It is normal that this person is crying because that person is a woman."... Well, actually, he wouldn't have thought anything at all since there is nothing odd with a female crying....

So the very fact that there are cultural norms for the behaviors of both men and women shows that behaviors are not determinant when we gender someone. If it really was determinant, then everyone would be genderfluid and people would be gendered by others differently according to the situation. Gendering is a very quick process that happens unconsciously and that is mostly based off of secondary sexual characteristics, clothings and voice. Of course, someone who is very androgynous might challenge that gendering reflex and the person might then have to look for other clues, such as behaviors, the way the person walks or stand, those kind of details. But this is really a rare occurrence (although it's obviously very common here, since the goal of the place is to unite people who are gender variant).

So in conclusion, a man crying isn't seen as "more female", but merely as male acting in disagreement to his supposed normal behavior as a male.

[Padma]

Exactly - and what that means can be different within a 1-mile radius, depending on what culture/subculture/class the observer and the observed are part of, even within the same country (or state or town or whatever).

What seems like "normal male behaviour" is different depending on whether you're in the office, on the shop floor, at the stadium, at the art college... in another country, on another continent...  in a different screen at the cinema! - I mean, if you've gone to see Field Of Dreams, you might be less surprised to see a man there crying than if you've gone to see Die Hard 13b - it's all so contingent! And to some extent a biological mechanism it's impossible to override completely - we assess within the first 1/20 of a second each stranger we meet, for potential threat or ally, and that's our lizard brain looking after us. So we shouldn't expect ourselves or anyone else to be fully free of this kind of instant judgement - the thing is to develop the capacity to work beyond it, and know it's provisional and loaded.

[Stephanie]

Go to www.womansavers.com and you can see what women think about.  Another website that allows you to see what is important to women and how they write, think and interact is www.dontdatehimgirl.com.