Do you ever feel envious of those with Faith?

[Kay]

But what I am seeing is Athiests being cynical people. I am a cynical athiest, and sometimes I just wish I could give up just a little bit of reason if it meant I could be happy. I'm sick of being sad and cynical, I want to feel like no matter how much Hell I go through on Earth, I will still have a heaven to go to. I want to feel that no matter how few friends I have, God will always love me. There is nothing happy about dying, being buried in the ground, and that is the end. Granted, once you are dead you wouldn't be capable of caring what your state of being is, it's a sad thought to know that is the end. If I were on my death bed, I would want the comfort of knowing I'd soon be in Heaven.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just different. I don't personally think it's stupid or weak to desire faith.

.
.
I understand where you're coming from.  Personally I'm agnostic (and have always been a bit of a philosopher).  For me it came down to a choice:  Do I value what is real (and often uncomfortable) more?  Or do I value feeling good/safe/loved/being-rewarded-after-this-life...essentially...having faith in something...even if I'm just imagining it? 
.
I agree, it would be easier.  It would...feel nice...it would feel very nice to have faith again. Blind faith.  Beliefs independant of, and ignorant of facts. Unfortunately, such a thing runs counter to what I value. 
.
Growing up, I was around some pretty paranoid extremist people/churches.  I saw first-hand what that sort of faith can do unchecked.  I saw the harm, the hate, and the ability to self justify anything those people wanted to justify (often hurtful to others, despite their other supposed beliefs)...because they weren't bound by anything factual or real.  If they believed it, it must be so...and there was no convincing them otherwise.  I would never consciously choose to be that sort of person.
.
Those were some pretty extreme people though.  Not all people who have faith get so very lost.   But from what I've seen, the vast majority still have very blurred lines between reality and what they choose to believe.  It doesn't have to be that way, but people who can actively make the distinction and still retain some sort of faith are quite rare.  In 37 years, I've met exactly 2 people who were able to accomplish that.  It's not an easy balancing act. 
.
As an agnostic, I guess I don't see myself as cynical.  Realistic perhaps.  Skeptical , yes.  Cynical though, goes a bit beyond that.  I suppose cynicism is when all hope is gone.  Some athiests do get that way, but they don't necessarily have to.  An absence of faith doesn't necessarily have to mean a complete absence of hope. 
.
But I do agree, that it would feel nice to be free to throw out this reality and substitute my own for a bit.      I just can't do it anymore, and feel that I'm being true to myself and to my values.  Not even in exchange for that feel-good Pollyanna innocence (and ignorance) that comes with it.

[Jacelyn]

If one only have a theist's background, and that one's status of being athest is just a matter of disagreeing with anything related to theist, then apart from disagreeing, there is no view that goes beyond theist, in order to have faith with, thus naturally one is in need of a basis of faith, seeing the theist possess faith, envy arises. This is only a natural reaction.

[E]

I do not envy them their faith. The most comforting thought I know of is "one day, I will simply no longer exist". The idea of an afterlife is unbearably horrific to me.

[kyril]

If you're a theist, the answers to the "big questions" - 'why am I here?' 'what's the point of it all?' 'how should I live my life?' 'where did this all come from?' - are all pretty simple. They've mostly already been answered for you, and you don't have to really think about them if you don't want to. Some people find that comforting.

The universe as the atheist sees it has no less potential beauty, but it's more complicated. Some people find that uncomfortable.

Richard Feynman really captures my opinion on the matter here:

"Poets say science takes away from the beauty of the stars - mere globs of gas atoms. I too can see the stars on a desert night, and feel them. But do I see less or more?

The vastness of the heavens stretches my imagination - stuck on this carousel my little eye can catch one - million - year - old light. A vast pattern - of which I am a part... What is the pattern, or the meaning, or the why? It does not do harm to the mystery to know a little about it. For far more marvelous is the truth than any artists of the past imagined it. Why do the poets of the present not speak of it? What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?"

and here:

"It doesn't seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil - which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama."

[Dana Lane]

I am an atheist and, in no way, shape or form, am I jealous of anyone who has faith. I do have to admit, however, xtians have a keen ability to cherry pick from their gospel. Just go into the bible and grab what you need for your agenda and forget about the other things you had to read to get to it. Murder, rape, incest, genocide, on and on and on. Angry god, jealous god... Oh, but wait.  "love they neighbor". Found something I can use. "But, I hate my neighbor"....Well, then catch him working on the Sabbath. Need some stones?

[Padma]

kyril, I love this "beat poem" by Tim Minchin - it's contentious, funny, and contains some swearing (in case that bothers people). It echoes Richard Feynman's take on this (I wish he'd been my dad - I cried when he died, and we'd never even met) - see it through to the end, though:



Graphic subtitles version (for the hard of Australian)

[Jacelyn]

Atheist is a position of comfort that is direct result of escaping from the ills of theism, but it only find comfort by comparing itself against theist, by the faithlessness that arrived, not that it is a position of comfort with the many questions of life. This deficiency causes some to find unease with its status, and thus admire the faith (not the content) that exist in people.

[AmySmiles]

Cute video Yoxi, I liked it a lot   If ever I get bummed about being an atheist, this is the video I watch:

[Ryno]

I've gone from a straight-up atheist to spiritually-accepting and curious. I don't believe there's a being conscious of every human's thought but I guess I kind of feel some guiding force or energy... I can't explain it without sounding like a nutjob, but hey, all religion sounds like the creation of a bunch of nutjobs. I guess my religious ideas conform the most with Taoism. Yeah... I really like Taoism...

[Bombi]

it seems to me that "faith" is a suspension of reality and giving away your presumed control
There are all kinds of atheists. I call myself a Spiritual Humanist, it seems more socially acceptable and distracts the haters.

[Padma]

I just think of 'faith' as being what you have when you don't have certainty. It doesn't have to be faith in a creator god (or any divine beings at all), it can be faith in the nature of reality being a certain way. Being tiny beings in a vast-o cosmos (which might itself just be one of many) it's not like there's a lot we can be really certain of anyway, on the grand scale. The problem I have with many religions (or at least many religious groups) is that they demand a certainty that they *call* faith, but it's really a big on/off switch; I think faith is much more a gradually developing confidence in things being a certain way, tested against experience, intellect and intuition (and if it's not all three, someone is kidding themselves) - it's not just a back-stage pass to the in-group. It's personal.

[jainie marlena]

I would rather be Athiests than envy them. The Athiests has more faith than they do just don't see it. all of you are right in what you say. I have seen great reasoning in this forum. blessed is the athiest for not believing in their Gods for the wise hath said in their heart there is no God.

[angiejuly]

 I am only universal elements. I was given the gift of consciousness. It must be a gift , I haven`t taken myself. I have always existed and always will. I will live as long as I am in the consious thoughts of others as who I am today. 

I cannot sit back and watch you search for truth any longer. This is a good start. 

[Amazon D]

For yrs i have been telling people about the voicesinyourhead (not outloud voices) and how they are those who passed on to the next world and are trying to guide us in all we do. Jesus or yahshua is one of them. We also as youth had many dejavue's which were rememberences before we got here trying to alert us that from whence we came to where we will return. Those dejavue's are times we wanted to be able to remember when we got to this world alerting us that this world is only a small part of where we are from and where we will return. Now everyone called me crazy Danielle but i know that when i listen to that voice i never have troubles but when i ignore it i suffer much. today i have basically surrendered all to above and just ride the surfboard of life and go for the ride and worry not for any thing here on earth because life here is but a dream from whence we came to where we will return.

I could mention a 1000 things and many of them where times when i didn't listen and finally realized to start listening. Then on top of the times i didn't listen there are tens of thousands of times i did listen and these days i just do as above wants and not my own will. Yea i do stuff each day and much of it is what am i going to do and then the answer comes to me and i do it. When i build i never plan ahead. I let each day tell me how to continue and so i could never build with a blueprint because my life has no blueprint.

Many here seek acceptence from each other but that really is a futile effort because it is above who you will spend eternity and each of us are as ships passing in the night to maybe or maybe not bump into one another. Don't get hung up on the stuff of the world because it is as a drop in the bucket of our existence.

When i write i write to me if what i write speaks to another then so be it. Many might think i am self centered but really it is about hearing what i am writing to others that i am the one who must listen the most. Many times we try to tell others stuff when in reality it is ourselves who need to hear what we try to tell others. If what we say does speak to another then that is from above using us as a vehicle trying to reach that person who what we say speaks to another.

When i read anothers writing i seek to find that which is for me and that isn't a self centered thing it is a seeking the message from above thing. I know i can get messages from above from anybody who could be an unknowledgeable vehicle for that message.

alas this thread was the real message to myself that reminds me to stay on track and know i am not in charge but i am to continue to be guided and do that which needs to be done and many times when we do things we do stuff to finish others, who passed on, to finish their unfinished work..


Be wary of the ego or id as we can become self absorbed and feel we are a legend in our own minds. Its best to surrender self as much as possible to allow above to be able to speak to you more clearly. Then you will get your answers.

Be an surrendered individual and don't follow your peers or you will get caught in the trap of this superficial world seeking acceptence from others who like yourself are also seeking the truth. To do that is like the blind leading the blind..

Now call me crazy to this superficial world but know i am surrendered to above. If what i say speaks to you know it is NOT ME as i am just the vehicle for that message from above.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Life here on earth is but a dream of the true spiritual world from whence we came and to where we will return

[Maddie Secutura]

I an not envious of theists at all.  And I refuse to call myself an athiest as that would mean I am the deviant.  I am an empericist and I accept judgement based on objective observation.  If a theist wants to consider me stubborn that's a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.  If evidence were to arise that some omnipitant being was responsible for the creation of anything, then I would accept that.  However theists rigidly cling to their notion regardless of a better explanation of the facts.  The burden of proof lies upon the supporter of the theory.  In order for a hypothesis to become a theory, it has to be supported by evidence.  Even hypotheses are laid out to be tested after considerable research.  And just to be clear, disproving one theory does not prove another. 

You could ask me to explain a lot of things, such as consciousness.  I am willing to say that the brain is a rather complex organ and not completely understood however I'm reasonably sure that consciousness comes from our brain.  If you want to throw a diety giving the human body a soul into the ring as your hypothesis, you need to provide the proof to support such a claim.  I am not envious of theists in the slightest. 

If you need to believe in a cosmic nanny to keep you in line because otherwise you would be a complete disgrace of a human being than that's perfectly alright.  I do not envy you.  I have found that I am perfectly able to do what is reasonable simply for it's own sake.  It might be easier for me.  I propose that I have certain social instincts ingrained in me.  They are what guide me and tell me what is right and wrong.  Humans are social creatures.  Those with terrible character flaws (when it came to survival) were less successful and those flaws were weeded out.  As social animals we have a complusion to do what is "right."  Look at wolves and monkeys and prarie dogs.  They are all social creatures and seem to have their own code of conduct that best suits their survival.  Is it unreasonable to say that we as humans developed a genetic predisposition to behave in such a way as to benefit our own survival?

I don't need an almighty.  I don't need spiritual guides.  I am content to be driven by instinct.  And when I die, I will be perfectly happy being relieved of the burden of existence.

[Anatta]

Kia Ora,

"And I will not prove that I exist..." Said God [to the believers] "...For without 'faith' I'm NOTHING!"  So what's there to be envious of

Metta Zenda

[Maddie Secutura]

Kia Ora,

"And I will not prove that I exist..." Said God [to the believers] "...For without 'faith' I'm NOTHING!"  So what's there to be envious of

Metta Zenda

It pretty much sounds like a built in excuse for why there is no proof of divine existence.  I'm not envious of anyone who would be so deluded as to believe such things.

[Anatta]

It pretty much sounds like a built in excuse for why there is no proof of divine existence.  I'm not envious of anyone who would be so deluded as to believe such things.

Kia Ora Maddie,

"So what's there to be envious of??? NOTHING! ...now do you get it???

Metta Zenda

[Maddie Secutura]

Yeah I get it, I was agreeing with you.

My mother, often in exhasperation, says to me, "For those who believe no proof is necessary, for those who don't there no proof is enough."

I wish I could free her from her psychotic delusions but alas if she want's to be a stockholm victim of indoctrination then all I can do is let her.

[Anatta]

Kia Ora Maddie,

I've nothing against those who have faith in an almighty, just so long as it's not 'blind' faith...

I didn't grow up in a religious family, my parents would have been atheists or at least atheistic agnostics.. Church was for wedding, funerals and jumble sales...

However I did attend Sunday school as a child, because this was a form of  'free' baby sitting for most parents...

I now describe myself as an atheistic agnostic Buddhist, in other word I have an open mind and if there was ever a chance of finding tangible proof of an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly benevolent   god's existence, I would welcome it with open arms, but I know this is never going to happen and I repeat NEVER !

My brain is not wired that way...     

Metta Zenda