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Bin Laden is Dead

Started by V M, May 02, 2011, 12:31:04 AM

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0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

How do you feel about the death of Bin Laden?

I'm throwing and/or going to a party
8 (15.4%)
I'm dancing in the street
5 (9.6%)
I'm not sure how I feel
10 (19.2%)
I'm indifferent and could care less
20 (38.5%)
I'm feeling sad
5 (9.6%)
I will explain how I feel...
14 (26.9%)

Total Members Voted: 52

kate durcal

Quote from: Domitia on May 14, 2011, 01:01:26 PM
Ignorance truly must be bliss.

A war over idealism, and radical religious beliefs, doesn't just go away; most certainly not in that period of time.
Again. While I admit expertise is hard to define in a case like this, claiming you are one when you have obvious logic gaps is rather silly.

As for the topic at hand:

I was indifferent when it happened and still am. Cutting one head off of a (Lernaean) Hydra doesn't do much other than annoy it. What I am very happy about is that they captured a ton of information.

i cannot tell you my exact qualifications without putting myself in danger. Let just say several degrees beyond the usual bachelor, more than 2 decades serving some masters whose job is preserving your rights (including the one to insult me). I live through some of the wars and scenarios I described to you. One of my advance degrees is in analyzing conflicts. My opinions are based in education (beyond Wikipedia, Cable, newspapers, magazines,or your local cafe). There are at 3 conflicts in three different countries were through campaigns similar to those described above the terrorist extremist were extirpated. All 3 happen n the second half of the 20 century.

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MillieB

Quote from: kate durcal on May 14, 2011, 02:31:27 PM
  more than 2 decades serving some masters whose job is preserving your rights

Could you relay the message that they are not doing a very good job!
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JungianZoe

Quote from: kate durcal on May 13, 2011, 04:34:34 PM
There is nothing offensive about the truth. I have not use foul language at all, or  belittle anybody, at most I have a few grammatical error and typos.

I'm sorry, but I can't hold my tongue now... what you said to me two nights ago, pretty much insinuating that I was naive because of my age, that was damn belittling given everything I've gone through in my life.  And I know this is my own stupid problem, but I should say that, given what I experienced before I was even 10 years old, that's one of the only things anyone can say to me to set me off.  Claiming I know nothing because I'm young?  Because I'm not jaded?  Because maybe I'm hopeful for a better future?

Yes, I've been on a downhill slide ever since you said that to me, crying no less than six hours because of it.  It opened up all of the horrors of my past--all the things that spawned more suicide attempts than I can count--and left me unable to look at anything right now without breaking down.

Okay, you have a whole lot of advanced degrees, but what do you know about getting smashed around with the buckle end of a belt because you left a spot of toothpaste in the bathroom sink?  Or cigarette burns because you left a toy out?  Getting locked in a dark room because you looked at the television?  Going two days without meals because you said you were full before cleaning off your plate?  Having a knife waved at you because you were seen talking to another kid?  How about lying to teachers and police so that you wouldn't have to live with the guilt of taking your four siblings' only parents from them while you got to go live with you other parent?

Sure, call me naive.  Say I know nothing.  But you know what?  I do know a thing or two about violence, and my experiences left me dead set against violence and against killing.  Instead of becoming jaded, I embraced a philosophy of love that I sadly couldn't extend to my own self until just recently.

So next time you want to insinuate that someone is too young to know anything, stop and think that maybe they know more than you could ever fathom.


(My part of thread derailment is over... sorry about this)
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Domitia

Quote from: kate durcal on May 14, 2011, 02:31:27 PM
i cannot tell you my exact qualifications without putting myself in danger. Let just say several degrees beyond the usual bachelor, more than 2 decades serving some masters whose job is preserving your rights (including the one to insult me). I live through some of the wars and scenarios I described to you. One of my advance degrees is in analyzing conflicts. My opinions are based in education (beyond Wikipedia, Cable, newspapers, magazines,or your local cafe). There are at 3 conflicts in three different countries were through campaigns similar to those described above the terrorist extremist were extirpated. All 3 happen n the second half of the 20 century.

Odd that you feel hostilities of this nature could end in 2 years then. Furthermore, claiming to be anything over the internet is pointless, especially when it's about something that would supposedly place you in danger. People don't talk about things like that when it's true.... most certainly not on a public forum.

Furthermore, your (subtle) implications on where I get my knowledge is odd considering you have no idea what I do or don't know and do or don't believe. Hint, hint: My age is irrelevant.

I don't see much point in arguing with you though. I called a bluff and I'm not going to back away from it, but arguing with a wall never gets anywhere.
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kate durcal

I am deeply sorry about the abuse you suffer as a child. I think the people who abused deserve but the worst punishment. you did nothing wrong but be an innocent child. You have my compassion and empathy
I do cry and pry every day for the innocent children that die everyday from starvation, malnutrition, and dehydration. I think that any child abuse, physical, sexual, or emotional, is an abomination in the eyes of God, and a shame to humanity.
I am sorry and I apologize for my post and for the pain it caused you. I hope you can find some comfort in my sincere words.
Your email touch a raw nerve on me, hence perhaps my abrasive tone. I often heard criticism about how we go about protecting our culture our freedoms and our way of life, most if not all of this criticism a "Monday night quarterback" come from people who are in the comfort of their homes, and who have never experience the conflict or who have a very superficial knowledge of the subject.
Kate D

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JungianZoe

Quote from: kate durcal on May 14, 2011, 03:13:05 PM
I am deeply sorry about the abuse you suffer as a child. I think the people who abused deserve but the worst punishment. you did nothing wrong but be an innocent child. You have my compassion and empathy
I do cry and pry every day for the innocent children that die everyday from starvation, malnutrition, and dehydration. I think that any child abuse, physical, sexual, or emotional, is an abomination in the eyes of God, and a shame to humanity.
I am sorry and I apologize for my post and for the pain it caused you. I hope you can find some comfort in my sincere words.
Your email touch a raw nerve on me, hence perhaps my abrasive tone. I often heard criticism about how we go about protecting our culture our freedoms and our way of life, most if not all of this criticism a "Monday night quarterback" come from people who are in the comfort of their homes, and who have never experience the conflict or who have a very superficial knowledge of the subject.
Kate D

Kate, thank you.  Another part of my philosophy is to forgive and forget.  Ill will only brings everyone down.  So I thank you for your kind words and I accept your apology.  I'm also sorry for how I kind of unleashed in that post of mine.

(And now I'm officially done with thread derailment... for reals this time  :angel: )
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Devlyn

Kate, we disagreed in the CRaSH thread, but I'm with you on this. I, too, bore arms to defend free speech, and on the days people use that freedom to defend terrorists or insult me and other warriors, I ask myself why I did it. Hugs, Tracey
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MillieB

Quote from: Tracey on May 14, 2011, 04:26:27 PM
Kate, we disagreed in the CRaSH thread, but I'm with you on this. I, too, bore arms to defend free speech, and on the days people use that freedom to defend terrorists or insult me and other warriors, I ask myself why I did it. Hugs, Tracey

Just out of interest, what free speech threatening foe are we talking about?
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kate durcal

First, I must express my gratitude to all for helping keep this thread civil. Emails and blogs take some human elements out the communication equation and thus tend to misinterpretation.

Second, I never post anything that I cannot back up with references, and I do not mean Wikipedia, yet I agree and concede that it is hard sometime to take a leap of faith and trust that what other people claim to be in the in the net is true. However, just like in common life sooner or later the true nature of people shows. I wish I could put my picture and tell you my real name, but I truly cannot. Some evil enemy is hunting me, and I must not reveal my nature and whereabouts. I expect this situation to come to an rend in a year or year and half. Then, I will be able to be less cryptic about my identity and share where I am in my transition.

Third, unless you have seen combat, like Tracy and other in this forum have seen, you just have no idea how traumatic and life changing the whole thing is. In my case, it took the excitement out of many things, it left me constantly aware of my situation to the point that it is debilitating, a hatred for the enemy that does not go away as the faces of those who died in my arms are sear in mind, and the other stuff like bad dreams, etc. Fortunately it left my compassion and empathy capacities intact.I am telling you this because to emphasize the fact that I do not like war, nor I want anybody to go through it. 

Fourth, the issue of what people who fight the wars (in uniform or not) is that basically they do because we (they) swear an oath to defend the Constitution of the USA, and that includes your rights of free speech and the pursuit of happiness among others.

Fifth, I stand by my assertions of how to win an asymmetric war as repugnant as it may be, but I cannot in honesty no say when it is true. Perhaps now we will not, as a high minded society, go down that road, but believe me that if our survival is threatened, we will do what we must.

Finally, I would love to hear other propositions as to how we could win these asymmetric wars

Kate D



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kate durcal

Tracey,

Hugs back. "Stay frosty and in the shadows"
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Domitia

Well, my post was just to signify that it's rather useless to claim yourself as an expert; it doesn't give you any more weight in the argument.

While I don't have much reason to doubt your claim of being an expert I don't have much reason to believe it, either. (Other than with how I think your idea is extremely off-base) In the end it's irrelevant. Even if you gave every ounce of evidence of who you are, it's all useless online. I've seen numerous people claim to be people they aren't; and some do incredibly good jobs at being someone else, even to the point of having fake pictures of IDs, phone numbers, email addresses, addresses .etc (typically real documents of someone else).

The two year claim is what I have a fuss with. Again, I'm not making something out of nothing because of the specific "2 years"; it's the claim altogether. Ten years, even, I would doubt. You could be the most informed, most well trained, person in the world and meet me in person to prove it. That claim is ridiculous. This type of a "war" is going to take decades upon decades, not a couple years.

The hatred of people doesn't just go "poof" and go away. Nor will killing all of them do this either; now you're just ticking more and more people off. Going to kill them too? Unless you kill everyone, you're not going to get very far. We're talking ideologies that are being ingrained through the generations of people involved, not a crazy dictator leading a solid army. You don't eliminate an ideology by killing a person. With that said, hugging trees and screaming "make peace" wont do anything either. In the end, killing civilians, even if they had some contact with a non-civilian, is wrong (in the sense of being excessive, brutal, and unnecessary).

I could easily go on for a long time and throughly explain where I stand in all of this, but it's not worth the time, arguing, or risk of anger falling upon me. I would advise people not to assume what my stance is though; I'm not a parrot.

Also:
I don't really see how I insulted you (assuming that it was in reference to me). Other than saying your opinion was ignorant, and doubting your qualifications, I never really insulted you personally. The "bluff" I stand behind is the 2 year plan; not who you are. The "wall" comment was in part about the internet as it makes evidence harder to show, and in part about how strong opinions tend not to change regardless of evidence. My "hint hint" was proactive defense for the good-ol' "You're to young to know" statement that I have received numerous times in the past; usually by people who don't know what they're talking about.

Furthermore:
Having problems with soldiers is illogical. It's like getting mad at a cashier for the price of food. If a soldier does their job and doesn't sway from orders they're doing their job. It's the person who gives the orders that you have problems with. As a note, I don't count "terrorists" (including the rebels in south America and other terrorist-like workings) as soldiers.
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How does what I'm saying relate to Osama?

His death just means more hatred. The intelligence that was gained from killing him is great news, however.
Thus, like everything, it's a double blade; both good and bad.
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kate durcal

I base the 2 years time frame in a couple of facts. 3 wars were conducted by 3 countries with vastly inferior capabilities than those we poses, ad they took them 6 -7 years. The fourth country was more capable the war was shorter, although i may confess that the elimination of the extremists was not so complete. So, if we were to bear all of our might with a political resolution, yes I do anticipate 2 years tops. Remember I am not talking about conducting a war like the one we are currently engage, but using a new paradigm.   
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Domitia

To be fair, after re-reading your posts over and over, you don't actually have *extremely* far off ideas as I. However, the two year thing I still disagree with because it's spread and entrenched itself too much. If that was done at the very start of this, preferably even before the great wake up calls on the US / when many key leaders were actually in the US, I would entirely agree.

Now? No. It's just spread too far and affected too many.

Taliban taking control of Afghanistan within a year or two after a withdraw with how things are now? Very, very, likely.

War is never nice, never has, and most certainly never will be. Playing the "moral" route is extremely expensive but it's hard to play the "moral" card in society and politics if you're using "immoral" means; even if reason is there.

I'm stopping here though.
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V M

Quote from: Domitia on May 14, 2011, 10:05:08 PM
Well, my post was just to signify that it's rather useless to claim yourself as an expert; it doesn't give you any more weight in the argument.

Also:
I don't really see how I insulted you (assuming that it was in reference to me). Other than saying your opinion was ignorant, and doubting your qualifications, I never really insulted you personally. The "bluff" I stand behind is the 2 year plan; not who you are. The "wall" comment was in part about the internet as it makes evidence harder to show, and in part about how strong opinions tend not to change regardless of evidence. My "hint hint" was proactive defense for the good-ol' "You're to young to know" statement that I have received numerous times in the past; usually by people who don't know what they're talking about.


--------------------

How does what I'm saying relate to Osama?

His death just means more hatred. The intelligence that was gained from killing him is great news, however.
Thus, like everything, it's a double blade; both good and bad.
Let's try to remember friends that this is a discussion, not an argument... Everyone's opinion is valid... No, we may not always agree, but telling someone that they are ignorant and/or don't know what they are talking about is rather rude... There are better ways to express that you disagree with another person's ideal and/or opinion

Again, thank you for your participation
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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Domitia

Quote from: Virginia M on May 14, 2011, 11:20:42 PM
Let's try to remember friends that this is a discussion, not an argument... Everyone's opinion is valid... No, we may not always agree, but telling someone that they are ignorant and/or don't know what they are talking about is rather rude... There are better ways to express that you disagree with another person's ideal and/or opinion

Again, thank you for your participation

Ignorant in that they're ignoring factors of something; which I still feel is true, but don't feel like arguing debating over it. Furthermore, argument more along the lines of a debate. You're right, it's not an argument, but it's a little bit more than a discussion in that it has formatting.

Can have an ignorant opinion without being an ignorant person. I don't see how critiquing an opinion, however harshly, is like critiquing a person.

I also never said someone didn't know what they were talking about; that was in reference to another forum.

People can call me out on things. I don't claim to be the all knowing, all powerful, flawless and perfect being; which isn't capable of existing. My opinions, and I myself, have flaws just as anyone else; the biggest being how I use phrases and words, often seeming as if I am insulting a person's capability. It would make sense if you were from other forums I visit, where it's clear such phrases are about the opinion, not person, but no one (I believe) is, so I try to no avail; largely because you need to be harsh, but it's entirely about the discussion at hand, not people at hand. Hence why I've stated that expertise is irrelevant.

The reason I'm leaving is because discussing war is icky. I dislike violence and therefore am leaving to avoid the stir-ups that war-related discussions can cause if you aren't careful. Not to mention, the bad feelings involved of just thinking about it. I could easily discuss what is arrogant about the opinion (again, as in lacking something), if it was about a more mellow topic.

Edit no. 20. I also wouldn't edit a million times if I truly wanted to insult and individual :/
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V M

Understandable, but you shouldn't feel like you have to leave... Your opinion is just as valid as everyone else's... I'm just asking everyone to avoid using terms that could be viewed as inflammatory

I don't like war and/or violence either, but that doesn't mean we can't have a peaceful discussion about it... Maybe if enough people can discuss such issues in a civil manor we can bring an end to war by practicing peace... But that's just one of my crazy ideas  :laugh:

Anyway, no bad feelings... I'm not perfect either

Hugs

- Virginia
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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Julie Marie

 :police: Let's avoid getting personal.  This thread is about the death of Bin Laden and how each of us feel about it.  And how we feel about cannot be debated.  It's our feelings.  And if along the way we go off on a tangent, let's keep focus on the fact that each and every one of us is stating an opinion, OUR OPINION.  So please, let's respect that.
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Devlyn

Just to clarify things, I never earned a right sleeve combat patch. I served in peacetime. The enemy of free speech at the time was the Soviet Union. Our mantra then was "kill a commie for mommie!" Back to the original topic, I'm still dancing in the street about goat boys death!
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MillieB

Yes, we're so far apart on this that I'll bow out now before I really exercise my freedom of speech that you didn't fight to protect.

As for Bin Laden? What has it changed other than to give the prez a few more popularity points?
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Devlyn

Thanks for the reply, young one.
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