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Transitioning is NOT a Decision.

Started by Natasha, May 07, 2011, 02:21:43 PM

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Ann Onymous

And again we see the divide between those that want to equate the transgender lifestyle to what the transsexual goes through.  For those of us who suffered from a transsexual condition, competent medical intervention WAS a necessity as was going through what some classify as a transition.  It was in no way a superficial cure.  And of the true transsexuals I have known in my lifetime, the blended genders some espouse was not and does not cut it in our lives.

to go back to what was originally posted, let's look at the operative clause:
Quotetransitioning is not all about changing your name, dressing in the clothes that match your gender identity, taking cross sex hormones, and eventually getting srs. to say that is very superficial

at its most basic level, all four of those items are ESSENTIAL to getting on with life for a person with a transsexual medical condition.  Does it take a 'legal' name change?  No...although in the post-9/11 world, it is likely more difficult for people to change documents without a court order.  Mode of dress- this was NEVER about playing dress-up for most of us.  HRT and SRS- an absolute necessity.  There was no choice of in-between allowing for a comfort level.  It was about getting on with our lives. 


   



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xxUltraModLadyxx

well, what is "only a woman?" sure, i identify as a female with my place in the society and culture. that's where i'm more comfortable. do you think my whole life has to do with an identity of a female? i would hope not. i'm multidimensional, and i'm glad. i'm happy to say i'm not just a cardboard cut out that is only one thing all the time. gender is not just male versus female. because then it just turns into a power struggle of who can be the most "legitimate" as one or the other. no thank you, not for me.
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Ann Onymous

Quote from: SpaceyGirl on May 10, 2011, 04:47:20 PM
well, what is "only a woman?" sure, i identify as a female with my place in the society and culture. that's where i'm more comfortable. do you think my whole life has to do with an identity of a female? i would hope not. i'm multidimensional, and i'm glad. i'm happy to say i'm not just a cardboard cut out that is only one thing all the time. gender is not just male versus female. because then it just turns into a power struggle of who can be the most "legitimate" as one or the other. no thank you, not for me.

The bolded would suggest that you would not be the true transsexual for whom notions of transition are contemplated in this thread.  It you can be content going back and forth between identities, fine...but it also suggests that you know little about what some of us in this thread had to contend with and why the very items you label as superficial were, in fact, medically necessary components. 

I do not subscribe to the gender->-bleeped-<- concept (which loosely seems to be what you are content to do) and none of the true transsexuals I have known in my lifetime subscribe to anything other than a binary construct.  Fluidity does exist for some of them in the area of sexual orientation, although there never was any movement for me- I was a baby dyke from my middle school days on forward (generally when people first discover sexual attractions). 

Some of us keep getting hit over the head with Rule 10, but this is precisely the reason why some of us felt the rule hamstrings the conversation.  We get people who have barely been alive as long as some of us have been post-operative telling us what is and is not 'superficial.'  I mean jesus-h-effing-christ-on-a-popcicle-stick, this was a thread premised upon an article talking about a NEED for transsexuals and we have people chiming in about gender fluidity.     
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xxUltraModLadyxx

Quote from: Ann Onymous on May 10, 2011, 05:02:04 PM
The bolded would suggest that you would not be the true transsexual for whom notions of transition are contemplated in this thread.  It you can be content going back and forth between identities, fine...but it also suggests that you know little about what some of us in this thread had to contend with and why the very items you label as superficial were, in fact, medically necessary components. 

I do not subscribe to the gender->-bleeped-<- concept (which loosely seems to be what you are content to do) and none of the true transsexuals I have known in my lifetime subscribe to anything other than a binary construct.  Fluidity does exist for some of them in the area of sexual orientation, although there never was any movement for me- I was a baby dyke from my middle school days on forward (generally when people first discover sexual attractions). 

Some of us keep getting hit over the head with Rule 10, but this is precisely the reason why some of us felt the rule hamstrings the conversation.  We get people who have barely been alive as long as some of us have been post-operative telling us what is and is not 'superficial.'  I mean jesus-h-effing-christ-on-a-popcicle-stick, this was a thread premised upon an article talking about a NEED for transsexuals and we have people chiming in about gender fluidity.     

ok, now you're using a new word "true transsexuals." i'm going to stop here, because it's just obvious where this is all going. i would just like to say i don't appreciate the disrespect, but i will thank Sarah7 and Sephirah for respecting my 2 cents...
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JungianZoe

Quote from: SpaceyGirl on May 10, 2011, 04:47:20 PM
well, what is "only a woman?" sure, i identify as a female with my place in the society and culture. that's where i'm more comfortable. do you think my whole life has to do with an identity of a female? i would hope not. i'm multidimensional, and i'm glad. i'm happy to say i'm not just a cardboard cut out that is only one thing all the time. gender is not just male versus female. because then it just turns into a power struggle of who can be the most "legitimate" as one or the other. no thank you, not for me.

This isn't meant to be an attack, but I fear you're confusing a few points here and it's throwing off a bunch of people.  Are you advocating an end to the gender binary or simply talking about adding some non-conforming behaviors to your repertoire?  Because it's a far cry from "I'm a girl who likes video games and cars" to "there should be no genders at all and let's end gender typecasting."  You seem to be saying both at once.

The gender binary may, in fact, be a root of power struggle as any binary can be: rich/poor, powerful/powerless, capitalists/socialists, normal folk/Justin Bieber... the list goes on.  But have you also considered the binary as the root of love?  The beginning of coming together and understanding?  Regardless of whether it's "I'm a girl, you're a boy," "I'm a girl, you're a girl," or "I'm a boy, you're a boy," it's a root of attraction.

Hell, I'm not a typical girl either, but I'm definitely a girl.  I love the occasional video game, I play drums, I drool over every original Mini Cooper I see, and I can fix most things around the house after growing up helping my dad in construction.  But I loooooove pink and purple, admiring flowers, hugs, shopping, and dancing.  That's multidimensionality within the binary...
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FairyGirl

I posted in another thread that I was never a "man" who became a woman; I was born a woman with a birth defect I since had corrected.  It was a dreadfully frightening thing to endure, but I was compelled to do so or literally die trying.  The failure of some to comprehend the urgency of this in no way negates it's validity.  I guess it then depends on if you think matters of life or death are any kind of real choice.  Call it a choice if you like, but if I were eaten up with cancer and there was a cure available, I would take it no matter what I had to do to get it rather than suffer the alternative.

There is a transsexual medical condition that has nothing to do with lifestyle, dressing up, or taking recreational hormones.  I would even venture to say that many of us who seek and obtain physical correction for our medical condition do subscribe to the gender binary, otherwise why would we be so desperate to change our bodies to match our brains? Again, failure to comprehend this driving need in no way negates its validity or it's cold reality.

"Only a woman" is not a man or something in between.  It's not rocket science.  Yes, everyone I would hope is multidimensional in personality and interests, but some of us when it comes to the single aspect of our gender are simply men and women, and we do what we must do in order to be who we are. Those who are happy as something else should by all means follow their own dreams and choices, but never state emphatically that we are all just like they are, because where is the multidimensionality in that?
Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
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Shana A

Quote from: Ann Onymous on May 10, 2011, 04:21:31 PM
And again we see the divide between those that want to equate the transgender lifestyle to what the transsexual goes through.

There isn't a transgender "lifestyle", being transgender is a legitimate identity and/or experience for some people here, which has its considerable conflicts and/or internal struggles. I feel that using the word lifestyle has a minimizing effect.

Z
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Ann Onymous

Quote from: Zythyra on May 10, 2011, 05:30:05 PM
There isn't a transgender "lifestyle", being transgender is a legitimate identity and/or experience for some people here, which has its considerable conflicts and/or internal struggles. I feel that using the word lifestyle has a minimizing effect.

The article discussed transition as it applies to transsexuals.  Despite that we have people coming in this thread talking about gender fluidity.  And in that context, as applied to the article, 'transgender' is, IMO, a lifestyle. 

If I am going to be accused of 'minimizing' then some others in this thread sure need to recognize the minimizing they are doing when they claim necessary treatment for OUR medical conditions was superficial in nature.  I (along, clearly with several in the thread) identified as a FEMALE from our earliest recollections.  There is no 'in-between' for us.  Quite frankly, I have nothing in common for those that can be content with a fluidity in their appearance and manner of life...   
  •  

xxUltraModLadyxx

Quote from: JungianZoe on May 10, 2011, 05:13:57 PM
This isn't meant to be an attack, but I fear you're confusing a few points here and it's throwing off a bunch of people.  Are you advocating an end to the gender binary or simply talking about adding some non-conforming behaviors to your repertoire?  Because it's a far cry from "I'm a girl who likes video games and cars" to "there should be no genders at all and let's end gender typecasting."  You seem to be saying both at once.

The gender binary may, in fact, be a root of power struggle as any binary can be: rich/poor, powerful/powerless, capitalists/socialists, normal folk/Justin Bieber... the list goes on.  But have you also considered the binary as the root of love?  The beginning of coming together and understanding?  Regardless of whether it's "I'm a girl, you're a boy," "I'm a girl, you're a girl," or "I'm a boy, you're a boy," it's a root of attraction.

Hell, I'm not a typical girl either, but I'm definitely a girl.  I love the occasional video game, I play drums, I drool over every original Mini Cooper I see, and I can fix most things around the house after growing up helping my dad in construction.  But I loooooove pink and purple, admiring flowers, hugs, shopping, and dancing.  That's multidimensionality within the binary...

to answer that, people are mistaking the jist of what i'm saying. when i mention my identity as female, and say it's not all i am. people are going into male versus female. as if me saying that my female identity is not everything about me as an individual means i can't be considered a female. an identity as a female is one part of who i am, forget about the binary, and leave the male vs female piece out. that's the problem. i'm not saying there is no such thing as male or female. what i'm saying is that my identity as female is only important when someone asks what gender identify as, so i give them the name of it. other than that, how i express myself comes natural, and i'm not worried about what a male is or what a female is. i'm just being me. the thing that i think needs to end is these rule enforcements on what makes you "real" as on or the other. why does it even matter? i just know how i'm comfortable living, and that's just that for me. does that make sense? i believe gender is only really there when people are consciously thinking of it and want it to be there for the sake of arguement. gender is not tangible. it's something used metaphorically.
  •  

FairyGirl

Going through childhood as a girl brain in a boy body is hard. I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know how to fix it.  Still, I knew. Something inside told me this was not right, someone made a horrible mistake, I should have been just like my other female friends, I should have been able to dress like them, wear my hair like them, act like them, and be treated like them.  Instead, I was scolded, punished, told that little boys don't act like that, don't dress like that, don't wear their hair like that, don't play with those toys.  And so, ever the good little trooper, I tried to conform, to fit in, if only for the sake of my physical well-being to keep from being punished and tormented by those even more ignorant of my condition than I was.

But those feelings of inconguity never went away.  No matter how hard I tried to suppress them (because that's what boys are supposed to do, or don't do), there was something broken inside me that would never let me have peace with pretending to be something I wasn't.  Throw in the massive confusion brought about by early male-oriented socialization, compound it further with a poison hormone that did horribly wicked things to my mind AND my body, and it's a wonder I lived through any of it.  But throughout it all, inside I still KNEW.

Three million years of human history has proven sexual dimorphism to be a successful evolutionary trait.  It's cross-cultural.  It isn't something someone made up just to befuddle the gender-confused or so one half of the population could lord it over the other half.  The truth is only a very small percentage of the human population ever even questions it.  And no wonder- it's in our genes as well as our jeans, it's in the very chemical and physical makeup and wiring of our brains and bodies.  Yin and Yang exist with all the power that the aforementioned three million years of evolution can put behind them.  And that is why, despite all outward appearances, my female brain could never find peace in a male body.  Something was broken and I had to fix it, or die trying.

Girls have vaginae, boys have penises.  Girl brains born into boy bodies unfortunately have penises too, but generally find this a totally unacceptable condition in which to live, so we go to great lengths to remedy this situation.  And thank the gods, there is a cure of sorts.  It isn't exactly perfect, but it's good enough to make an intolerable life livable again.  And once the cure has been taken, most of us who have taken it go on to live happy, fulfilled lives.  The world finally sees us on the outside as we are on the inside, and even more importantly we know, even if no one ever sees between our legs, that the upside down world we lived in all our lives is finally right side up again.

So despite the antithetic socialization, despite the inborn poison hormones, despite a million and one things to the contrary forcing us in the wrong direction, we do know when something isn't right with our assigned gender.  As I said previously, I would venture to assert that those of us who undergo the rather drastic measures of physical sex correction surgery believe quite strongly in the gender binary model.  We know that what is on the outside is wrong and needs to be fixed to bring our brains and the rest of our bodies into alignment.  The very fact that this extreme cure works gives credence to this.  It's all well and good to speculate endlessly on what gender means or how it is interpreted by the particular culture in which we live, but each of us must deal with the hard, cold, physical reality we are born into.

I'm very glad there are men and women.  As a heterosexual woman I love it when a man I'm attracted to behaves romantically towards me, and when he treats me as though I'm special, and when he sees me as sexually desirable.  I love every aspect of being a woman, even the parts that hurt.  Most of all, I love that my outsides fit my insides, and I am free to be who I was born to be: a complete female in this mixed up, muddled up, shook up (but still gender binary) world.
Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
  •  

Dawn D.

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 10, 2011, 06:21:50 PM......... Being born with transsexualism literally means having a miss-matched brain and crotch, to put it in the most basic terms. (I hate the more philosophical "mind and body," as if the mind wasn't part of the body.) I was born with a brain that is designed to run a female estrogen-based system, not the testosterone-based system that I endured..............


Now we're in agreement!


Dawn
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V M

Quote from: FairyGirl on May 10, 2011, 06:38:02 PM
Going through childhood as a girl brain in a boy body is hard. I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know how to fix it.  Still, I knew. Something inside told me this was not right, someone made a horrible mistake, I should have been just like my other female friends, I should have been able to dress like them, wear my hair like them, act like them, and be treated like them.  Instead, I was scolded, punished, told that little boys don't act like that, don't dress like that, don't wear their hair like that, don't play with those toys.  And so, ever the good little trooper, I tried to conform, to fit in, if only for the sake of my physical well-being to keep from being punished and tormented by those even more ignorant of my condition than I was.

But those feelings of inconguity never went away.  No matter how hard I tried to suppress them (because that's what boys are supposed to do, or don't do), there was something broken inside me that would never let me have peace with pretending to be something I wasn't.  Throw in the massive confusion brought about by early male-oriented socialization, compound it further with a poison hormone that did horribly wicked things to my mind AND my body, and it's a wonder I lived through any of it.  But throughout it all, inside I still KNEW.

This really hits home for me  :)  Thank you Chloe

Hugs

- Virginia
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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xxUltraModLadyxx

Quote from: FairyGirl on May 10, 2011, 06:38:02 PM
Going through childhood as a girl brain in a boy body is hard. I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know how to fix it.  Still, I knew. Something inside told me this was not right, someone made a horrible mistake, I should have been just like my other female friends, I should have been able to dress like them, wear my hair like them, act like them, and be treated like them.  Instead, I was scolded, punished, told that little boys don't act like that, don't dress like that, don't wear their hair like that, don't play with those toys.  And so, ever the good little trooper, I tried to conform, to fit in, if only for the sake of my physical well-being to keep from being punished and tormented by those even more ignorant of my condition than I was.

But those feelings of inconguity never went away.  No matter how hard I tried to suppress them (because that's what boys are supposed to do, or don't do), there was something broken inside me that would never let me have peace with pretending to be something I wasn't.  Throw in the massive confusion brought about by early male-oriented socialization, compound it further with a poison hormone that did horribly wicked things to my mind AND my body, and it's a wonder I lived through any of it.  But throughout it all, inside I still KNEW.

Three million years of human history has proven sexual dimorphism to be a successful evolutionary trait.  It's cross-cultural.  It isn't something someone made up just to befuddle the gender-confused or so one half of the population could lord it over the other half.  The truth is only a very small percentage of the human population ever even questions it.  And no wonder- it's in our genes as well as our jeans, it's in the very chemical and physical makeup and wiring of our brains and bodies.  Yin and Yang exist with all the power that the aforementioned three million years of evolution can put behind them.  And that is why, despite all outward appearances, my female brain could never find peace in a male body.  Something was broken and I had to fix it, or die trying.

Girls have vaginae, boys have penises.  Girl brains born into boy bodies unfortunately have penises too, but generally find this a totally unacceptable condition in which to live, so we go to great lengths to remedy this situation.  And thank the gods, there is a cure of sorts.  It isn't exactly perfect, but it's good enough to make an intolerable life livable again.  And once the cure has been taken, most of us who have taken it go on to live happy, fulfilled lives.  The world finally sees us on the outside as we are on the inside, and even more importantly we know, even if no one ever sees between our legs, that the upside down world we lived in all our lives is finally right side up again.

So despite the antithetic socialization, despite the inborn poison hormones, despite a million and one things to the contrary forcing us in the wrong direction, we do know when something isn't right with our assigned gender.  As I said previously, I would venture to assert that those of us who undergo the rather drastic measures of physical sex correction surgery believe quite strongly in the gender binary model.  We know that what is on the outside is wrong and needs to be fixed to bring our brains and the rest of our bodies into alignment.  The very fact that this extreme cure works gives credence to this.  It's all well and good to speculate endlessly on what gender means or how it is interpreted by the particular culture in which we live, but each of us must deal with the hard, cold, physical reality we are born into.

I'm very glad there are men and women.  As a heterosexual woman I love it when a man I'm attracted to is behaves romantically towards me, and when he treats me as though I'm special, and when he sees me as sexually desirable.  I love every aspect of being a woman, even the parts that hurt.  Most of all, I love that my outsides fit my insides, and I am free to be who I was born to be: a complete female in this mixed up, muddled up, shook up (but still gender binary) world.

i believe that, but i 've not been worried about the gender binary lately, so it just doesn't matter to me. yes, there is differences whether you're aware of them or not, but i choose to see that i have many identities as a human being, and not just one gender identity (female.)
  •  

Dawn D.

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 10, 2011, 06:21:50 PM
To Dawn D., my apologies, I overstated the case. Yet, I do not think stating that someone else's position is "a bunch of nonsense" is particularly courteous behaviour, nor does it suggest to me a desire for a "teachable moment." And of course, you agreed with that statement. But perhaps I should have kept my response to only include Ann Onymous's "the biggest crock of crap I have ever heard/read in quite some time" description which was what bothered me far more than anything else.


Sarah,

No worries. I can accept the guilt by association for not having edited out the more inciteful language. Essentially, it was Britney's premise I was agreeing to. Not her less than flattering language. I'll be more careful about my quoting selections in the future!

Thank you, for your candor!


Dawn 
  •  

JungianZoe

Quote from: SpaceyGirl on May 10, 2011, 05:58:48 PM
to answer that, people are mistaking the jist of what i'm saying. when i mention my identity as female, and say it's not all i am. people are going into male versus female. as if me saying that my female identity is not everything about me as an individual means i can't be considered a female. an identity as a female is one part of who i am, forget about the binary, and leave the male vs female piece out. that's the problem. i'm not saying there is no such thing as male or female. what i'm saying is that my identity as female is only important when someone asks what gender identify as, so i give them the name of it. other than that, how i express myself comes natural, and i'm not worried about what a male is or what a female is. i'm just being me. the thing that i think needs to end is these rule enforcements on what makes you "real" as on or the other. why does it even matter? i just know how i'm comfortable living, and that's just that for me. does that make sense? i believe gender is only really there when people are consciously thinking of it and want it to be there for the sake of arguement. gender is not tangible. it's something used metaphorically.

Not to be contrary, but nobody here has brought up anything along the lines of male v. female.  Those of us who subscribe to the gender binary say that we have a definite preference for which side people identify us as, but we don't see it as "I'm a female, males suck!" or vice versa.  People who think that way have issues that reach far beyond transsexuality.  I'm not denying the existence of political fights for gender equality that go back decades, simply stating that most of us peacefully fall into the gender binary because that's our path in life.  We can become who we are without hating what we were.  Okay, so some do hate what they were, but it doesn't mean that feeling extends to every other member of their birth sex.

For example, being in the binary means, for me, that I wouldn't want to stumble upon a group of guys, have them put up their hands for a high five, and then treat me like a dude.  I'm a woman, and guys don't treat women that way.  It's not man v. woman, it just makes the group members feel bonded in a commonality that they're comfortable with.  I'm not in their commonality, I'm female.  A binary-identifying FtM would probably be thrilled if this happened to him.

On the flip, I'm sure an FtM would be equally appalled if a group of women engaged him in wedding dress discussion.  Again, that's not woman v. man, just a commonality between women, and I'm pretty sure an FtM wouldn't want women treating him like that.  He's a man, not a woman.  But as an MtF, I'd be ecstatic to receive such an invitation.

These are tangible gender differences that exist beyond a power struggle, and they're the little things that mean the world to those of us in the binary.  They're also the little things that are never going to go away because of the pleasure these acts give to those who participate in them, triggering the release of dopamine in the brain's reward center and making us feel good.  The opposite acts for our gender rarely trigger this, and may in fact ignite a sympathetic nervous system (aka, stress) response in the binary-identified transsexual.  These reactions are quite tangible and can be caused by gender-related environmental and social cues!

We in the binary express ourselves naturally as a member of our gender, and yet are multifaceted in our interests and actions (I have a cis girlfriend who simply loves belching contests, which I get into with her because it brings her joy and makes us both laugh).  We're as natural in our lives as you are in yours.

Now I understand that you may not have that stress response to gender cues and may derive pleasure from all forms of gender-guided social interaction.  You experience gender as more fluid and you're perfectly entitled to that, as well as having the right to discuss it.  Why I think there's such an upheaval toward what you say is that we transsexuals in the binary experience what can be crippling stress in the face of mismatched social interaction.  Our reactions to stressors are, by nature, much more defensive than our reactions to pleasant stimuli, so there's quite a bit of backlash against the opinion that the thing that causes us so much pain doesn't even exist.  Our pain isn't metaphorical, it's real.  It kills too many of us.

I'm not saying, by any means, to not voice your opinion.  Just be careful how you word things (I'm anal about doing that myself) so that a casual comment doesn't cause hurt to others.

And trust me... that goes for some people on both sides of this argument.  ;)
  •  

JungianZoe

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 10, 2011, 06:21:50 PM
A lot of people, including myself, experienced rather a lot of trauma related to our GID. Many of us have suicide attempts, self-harm, drug abuse, eating disorders, and more in our past as a result of the dissonance within our bodies. Not to mention those that have suffered rejection by their families and friends, bigotry from their employers, and violence in their communities. Anyway, all that is just to explain why, when you suggest that our experience of gender is not tangible only metaphorical, many of us are going to react with some... hostility.

You wrote that while I was penning my response above... and given what I wound up redundantly saying, I couldn't agree more. ;D
  •  

xxUltraModLadyxx

Quote from: JungianZoe on May 10, 2011, 06:57:02 PM
Not to be contrary, but nobody here has brought up anything along the lines of male v. female.  Those of us who subscribe to the gender binary say that we have a definite preference for which side people identify us as, but we don't see it as "I'm a female, males suck!" or vice versa.  People who think that way have issues that reach far beyond transsexuality.  I'm not denying the existence of political fights for gender equality that go back decades, simply stating that most of us peacefully fall into the gender binary because that's our path in life.  We can become who we are without hating what we were.  Okay, so some do hate what they were, but it doesn't mean that feeling extends to every other member of their birth sex.

For example, being in the binary means, for me, that I wouldn't want to stumble upon a group of guys, have them put up their hands for a high five, and then treat me like a dude.  I'm a woman, and guys don't treat women that way.  It's not man v. woman, it just makes the group members feel bonded in a commonality that they're comfortable with.  I'm not in their commonality, I'm female.  A binary-identifying FtM would probably be thrilled if this happened to him.

On the flip, I'm sure an FtM would be equally appalled if a group of women engaged him in wedding dress discussion.  Again, that's not woman v. man, just a commonality between women, and I'm pretty sure an FtM wouldn't want women treating him like that.  He's a man, not a woman.  But as an MtF, I'd be ecstatic to receive such an invitation.

These are tangible gender differences that exist beyond a power struggle, and they're the little things that mean the world to those of us in the binary.  They're also the little things that are never going to go away because of the pleasure these acts give to those who participate in them, triggering the release of dopamine in the brain's reward center and making us feel good.  The opposite acts for our gender rarely trigger this, and may in fact ignite a sympathetic nervous system (aka, stress) response in the binary-identified transsexual.  These reactions are quite tangible and can be caused by gender-related environmental and social cues!

We in the binary express ourselves naturally as a member of our gender, and yet are multifaceted in our interests and actions (I have a cis girlfriend who simply loves belching contests, which I get into with her because it brings her joy and makes us both laugh).  We're as natural in our lives as you are in yours.

Now I understand that you may not have that stress response to gender cues and may derive pleasure from all forms of gender-guided social interaction.  You experience gender as more fluid and you're perfectly entitled to that, as well as having the right to discuss it.  Why I think there's such an upheaval toward what you say is that we transsexuals in the binary experience what can be crippling stress in the face of mismatched social interaction.  Our reactions to stressors are, by nature, much more defensive than our reactions to pleasant stimuli, so there's quite a bit of backlash against the opinion that the thing that causes us so much pain doesn't even exist.  Our pain isn't metaphorical, it's real.  It kills too many of us.

I'm not saying, by any means, to not voice your opinion.  Just be careful how you word things (I'm anal about doing that myself) so that a casual comment doesn't cause hurt to others.

And trust me... that goes for some people on both sides of this argument.  ;)

*yawnnn* i'm really tired, and am just going to take a nap now. too much thinking for me. where will i be on the binary? sleeping.
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Britney_413

A lot of people confuse gender and sex. Gender often is fluid even for TS people. A lot of gender is cultural. Heck, I'm a bit of a tomboy myself. I like guns and motorcycles and some other "male" things. Yet in the deepest core of my being I know I'm a female and desperately want SRS. Had I been born physically female, I'd still have the same interests, personality, etc., but I'd still be a female. This is the difference. A TG person may have a gender primarily opposite their birth sex but are comfortable with their bodies not wanting HRT or SRS. A TS wants desperately to change their bodies because their physical sex does not match their brain sex. Gender is often but not always related here. This is why it is a physical medical condition and not simply a "gender identity."
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Britney_413

I've noticed the same thing here on Susan's as I saw on another site I got banned from. Both sites had all these different categories (i.e. TG, TS, CD, IS, etc.) which is a really good thing. You see, a lot of us end up in the questioning phase and may even incorrectly think we are one of the other groups before we come to terms fully with who we are. That is fine. Here's what happens though which is why this very thread here resulted in a heated debate. You see, someone from one group will go and post in another group that they don't even identify with and then attempt to give advice that they really aren't in a position to give or they will share there opinions and feelings yet those opinions by their very nature are off topic since they don't even identify with that group.

For instance, I never post or even read the crossdresser forum or the FTM sections because they don't apply to me. I would be in no position to give accurate advice or share any kind of opinions they could identify with because I'm not a CD nor am I an FTM TS. What happens though is we have a thread such as this one that is specifically about a transsexual transition and then someone who is not a transitioning transsexual will post giving "their experience" when it is automatically off topic since the thread is about experiences that wouldn't even apply to them. It goes on and on and on. It isn't just the internet but real life and this is why a lot of TS people are tired of the whole "TG blend" because people are being drowned out by others who are speaking on things they aren't qualified to speak on. In real life, I have gone to these all-inclusive TG groups, etc. and someone has to criticise me for "being a lesbian" or questioning why I would need SRS. That's because it doesn't fit them yet because they are in the same alphabet soup as me they are now entitled to comment on my needs when they don't even share my perspective. As long as people continue to post in areas that they don't identify with and give their two cents, it will always result in debates and disagreements and likely frustration.

I do think maybe the mods/admins need to step in at some point and sort this all out. There already is a TG section for TG topics, a TS section for TS topics, etc. Here in the News/O&E it is generic yet this thread is specifically about a TS transition and now we have someone talking about non-TS issues. That right there is what I see being the problem. If the topic isn't about you, why are you commenting on it? Or at least if you do comment on it, you should be extremely careful as to make it clear that you are coming from a different background with a different situation.

I'm a white girl. I don't go to black meetings and talk to them about what it means to be black. I wouldn't want them to do the same to me either.
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rejennyrated

Quote from: Britney_413 on May 11, 2011, 02:34:15 AM
I've noticed the same thing here on Susan's as I saw on another site I got banned from. Both sites had all these different categories (i.e. TG, TS, CD, IS, etc.) which is a really good thing. You see, a lot of us end up in the questioning phase and may even incorrectly think we are one of the other groups before we come to terms fully with who we are. That is fine. Here's what happens though which is why this very thread here resulted in a heated debate. You see, someone from one group will go and post in another group that they don't even identify with and then attempt to give advice that they really aren't in a position to give or they will share there opinions and feelings yet those opinions by their very nature are off topic since they don't even identify with that group.

For instance, I never post or even read the crossdresser forum or the FTM sections because they don't apply to me. I would be in no position to give accurate advice or share any kind of opinions they could identify with because I'm not a CD nor am I an FTM TS. What happens though is we have a thread such as this one that is specifically about a transsexual transition and then someone who is not a transitioning transsexual will post giving "their experience" when it is automatically off topic since the thread is about experiences that wouldn't even apply to them. It goes on and on and on. It isn't just the internet but real life and this is why a lot of TS people are tired of the whole "TG blend" because people are being drowned out by others who are speaking on things they aren't qualified to speak on. In real life, I have gone to these all-inclusive TG groups, etc. and someone has to criticise me for "being a lesbian" or questioning why I would need SRS. That's because it doesn't fit them yet because they are in the same alphabet soup as me they are now entitled to comment on my needs when they don't even share my perspective. As long as people continue to post in areas that they don't identify with and give their two cents, it will always result in debates and disagreements and likely frustration.

I do think maybe the mods/admins need to step in at some point and sort this all out. There already is a TG section for TG topics, a TS section for TS topics, etc. Here in the News/O&E it is generic yet this thread is specifically about a TS transition and now we have someone talking about non-TS issues. That right there is what I see being the problem. If the topic isn't about you, why are you commenting on it? Or at least if you do comment on it, you should be extremely careful as to make it clear that you are coming from a different background with a different situation.

I'm a white girl. I don't go to black meetings and talk to them about what it means to be black. I wouldn't want them to do the same to me either.
Long post - which deserves a sensible reply so forgive the slight derail here but your points deserve a response. What you say is all true up to a point... However I have three major reservations

Firstly some of us are not pure-blood anything. For example I am intersexed but I was also trans - because contrary to popular belief those two conditions are not mutually exclusive. So I did sort of transition even though perhaps it was not quite so black and white as it is for some people.

If we adopted your suggestion where would I post? I do not entirely fit into intersex because I didn't find out that I was until after I was postop. I first transitioned as a child - then briefly de-transitioned in my teens before re-transitioning as a full adult. Of course because it was "second time around" nobody was that surprised when I did and because I had grown up at least to some extent within my target sex I don't entirely fit in the transsexual group either.

I'm also a natural rebel. If something is always supposed to be done A B C D then you can bet your bottom dollar that I WILL find a way to do it G A X Z (in otherwords completely differently). So part of me likes to defy convention with gender stereotypes - and therefore though I AM NOT IN ANY WAY an Androgyne or a genderqueer I sometimes like to play in their court a little because I find them stimulating.

Obviously I'm not FtM but I like a lot of them and the intersex part of me kind of understands their mindset.

I'm not strictly transgender. My take on that is that my gender was fine - it was my physical sex that was in question, but again I like the discussions that they have and so I find myself posting there too.

So the only two areas that I don't venture into and I know I really don't belong in are the CD and the non-op TS - those two I find I really don't have much to offer for.

I probably need a new category - after years of not fitting properly in to any of the existing labels I now call myself "post corrected cis", and I am guessing that there are those like maybe Northern Jane and Sarah B and in due course perhaps even Helena who might also join this new faction...

Secondly even for "pure-blood" transsexuals it will make a vast difference WHEN you transition. For example I mostly transitioned in childhood and thus, even though I was actually unaware of the intersex aspect, my experience was very different from most of what you go though which is why I don't always fully understand it - for example having "come out" at the age of five I often find myself scratching my head and wondering what the fuss is about and why people find it so difficult...

That brings me on to my final point which is that some of us involve ourselves in threads where perhaps we don't strictly belong because we are genuinely trying to understand - and indeed because sometimes it can (hopefully) be helpful to someone to have an outside point of view on the issue that they are facing. Sometime someone standing just outside the circle can see the thing that you are missing.

So - basically the inclusiveness and blurred boundaries of this forum are, as far as I am concerned, a good thing, and I would resist any suggestion of separatism.

I am literally not allowed to join several other support groups because the intersex ones wont let me in because I transitioned, and the trans ones wont let me join because it turns out I was intersex (even though I didnt know at the time ::)) Ok I could LIE and get in - but why should I have to?

For me the openness of Susan's and the fact that we have these threads which go off into multi pov debates is the thing which I find most positive, and I do not believe I am alone. If we segregated the threads rigidly in the way you propose then, a.) some of us like me would be unfairly excluded entirely and though no fault of our own and b.) all you would be left with were little cliques reinforcing each others comfortable ideas and no one would ever be challenged to think things through a little.

Debate only becomes a problem when people start to attack others or take things personally and feel invalidated. When that happens people should report the post and if we as moderators agree then will will warn or ban the offender.
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