“Why all the hate?”

[Natasha]

"Why all the hate?"

http://womononajourney.wordpress.com/2011/05/06/why-all-the-hate/
5/6/11
By womononajourney

Of all the insidious ways radical feminists critique male supremacy, the one we face the most flack for my far is the transgender "issue." If you don't believe me, look at how writers and academics such as Julie Bindel and Sheila Jeffreys are simply banned from conferences for critiquing a movement.

There are personal stories of friends being kicked out of class for speaking up with their view on trans, as well as a woman I know who can't get a job in academia due to her trans and radical feminist politics.

[cynthialee]

trans hateing rad fem

joy o joy

[rejennyrated]

Actually I thought it was an interesting and thoughtful piece of writing which posed some difficult questions that I find I have no easy answers to.

[Padma]

Actually, from what I've been reading lately, it seems that gender/sexuality are both biologically innate AND capable of being socially altered - there's evidence that gender can be affected on a neurological level for a short period even after birth, for example.

What I'm unhappy about in her blog is the idea she espouses that more people coming out as transgender more recently is somehow evidence of it being a social construct - which to me ignores the more likely scenario in which people have always experienced themselves as transgender, but now more are coming out about it because (a) there is more information available to help them articulate their experience, and (b) it actually feels moderately safe to do so compared to 30 years ago. She even points to this in her own experience of coming out as lesbian, yet fails to make the connexion.

[Arch]

What I'm unhappy about in her blog is the idea she espouses that more people coming out as transgender more recently is somehow evidence of it being a social construct - which to me ignores the more likely scenario in which people have always experienced themselves as transgender, but now more are coming out about it because (a) there is more information available to help them articulate their experience, and (b) it actually feels moderately safe to do so compared to 30 years ago.

And (c) there is something we can actually do about it, as opposed to just a few years ago!

[Padma]

It's true, collective "togetherness" is generally seriously overrated, and that's because people idealise the group they identify with. I've met plenty of women who've expressed disappointment with women-only situations simply because they'd been led to expect more from the experience than it actually had to offer. What you get in practice in any group situation is a broad range of emotional maturity, and people playing out their personal and family dynamics through the group. And women in particular are culturally led to expect a great deal from each other in terms of support, solidarity, maturity and love that isn't always present in the real world, especially in group situations where people are more on the defensive anyway.

To be honest, I've had the same experiences going to bisexual groups and trans groups - some collective fantasy that we all have everything in common just because we have one important thing in common. Generally speaking, the diversity needs addressing as much as the commonality, and that's rarely the case, since groups who identify as "oppressed" often tend to be internally oppressive (albeit unconsciously) in their need to "embody solidarity" which can really just mean all being the same whether you are or not, and the loudest/most extreme voices bring the ones that get to define the norm.

And to balance out what may seem like gross cynicism, people still manage to get a lot of support from groups, and I still understand why women want the "women-only space" they imagine, even though I don't necessarily agree with what that is (and they don't themselves agree on what it should be).

[Joelene9]

  I knew one of those original, bra-burning, marching NOW activists that did those things with her partner back then.  She, her partner and I got along just well.  I came over to help her with her Win 95 computer to install a accounting program for our club a decade ago and was rewarded with a nice pesto Italian dinner she made, with the Beatles playing on her little player.  She got along with everybody.  She was no "wymin only" Gloria Steinem.  At her funeral service, mat she rest, A few people left from the original ERA showed-up along with lots of members of the 3 clubs she belonged to.  Those 'group onlys' forget that those 'others' are human too. 
  Joelene

[spacial]

So now the feminists are trying to play the persecuted, offended banner.

It reminds me of a scetch show on TV, in the mid 70s. Someone, dressed in a Zute suit, dark glasses, claiming to represent the Mafia Party. Something like this:

So, a few of our number have unfortunately given in to their violent urges, now and again. But that doesn't mean we're all bad. And that unfortunate misunderstanding on Valentine's Day. Every family has its disagreements. Can't we live and forget?

The feminists, like all fascists and nazis, must be attacked and ostrocised at every opportunity because:

They teach division between men and women, not equality.

They teach hatred of men.

They abuse children.

The literally scream abuse at anyone who dares to disagree.

They are racists, teaching the supeority and greater significance of white females over all others.

When attacked, they hide behind the same old, tired excuse of persecution.

These people have no more right or significance than ManBoyLove/Paedophie Information Exchange, White Power/National Front, Al Qaida or any other scum who seek to isolate, judge, subjugate and destroy people because of how they are made, rather than what they might achieve.

[cynthialee]

I think there is some universal painting of feminists as the bad guy. I must vehemantly disagree.
The women in my family were second wave feminists and they have not been the type advocate separation of men and women.

The thing with feminism it is like any other 'ism'. There are good parts and bad parts and the best way to aproach an 'ism' is to accept the parts that work and throw away the stuff that is full of fail.

[spacial]

I think there is some universal painting of feminists as the bad guy. I must vehemantly disagree.
The women in my family were second wave feminists and they have not been the type advocate separation of men and women.

The thing with feminism it is like any other 'ism'. There are good parts and bad parts and the best way to aproach an 'ism' is to accept the parts that work and throw away the stuff that is full of fail.

The thing about feminism is the same as most of these sort of groupings.

So many claim to support them. But when pushed, most will defend themselves with claims such as, 'Well, I don't agree with this bit', or 'I don't agree with that bit', and in doing so, they show they don't actually understand any of it. Simply because, without, this bit and that bit, they don't have anything.

Racists seek to undermine some on the basis of their race. Some might defend themselves by claiming they don't want to harm such and such a race, just be separate. Apartheid SA, for example.

Feminism means supporting the statement: 'All Men Are Rapists.'

That single statement is offensive to all men. It is abusive, sexually, socially, emotionally abusive to children. It is offensive to women.

To attempt to separate that statement from feminism is as nonsensical as attempting to separate race hate from racism. That statement is the foundation of feminism.

Feminism exists and is guided by the minority of intellectual nazis such as the Likes of Professor Shelia jefferies http://www.ssps.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/jeffreys who spreads her evil notions of white female superiority.

The incidious aspect of modern feminism is that it has managed to create an attitude where women can continue to take advantage of the traditional advantages granted to all women while symultainously demanding the legal advantages of modern legislation.

This isn't creating a position of equality, nor the conditions for it. It is creating a position of superiority, led by the likes of Shelia Jefferies.

Now you can continue to stick your head in the sand, while claiming to support the most trendy of notions. But these people are telling children that all men are rapists. That their fathers are rapists. Young girls are being told that boys are rapists. Young boys are being told that they are and will be rapists.

Equally, the advantages, promised to women, by feminiism are intended and reserved for white women. Moreover, educated, middle class white women.

How very tready is that?

[Nathan.]

The thing about feminism is the same as most of these sort of groupings.

So many claim to support them. But when pushed, most will defend themselves with claims such as, 'Well, I don't agree with this bit', or 'I don't agree with that bit', and in doing so, they show they don't actually understand any of it. Simply because, without, this bit and that bit, they don't have anything.

Racists seek to undermine some on the basis of their race. Some might defend themselves by claiming they don't want to harm such and such a race, just be separate. Apartheid SA, for example.

Feminism means supporting the statement: 'All Men Are Rapists.'

That single statement is offensive to all men. It is abusive, sexually, socially, emotionally abusive to children. It is offensive to women.

To attempt to separate that statement from feminism is as nonsensical as attempting to separate race hate from racism. That statement is the foundation of feminism.

Feminism exists and is guided by the minority of intellectual nazis such as the Likes of Professor Shelia jefferies http://www.ssps.unimelb.edu.au/about/staff/profiles/jeffreys who spreads her evil notions of white female superiority.

The incidious aspect of modern feminism is that it has managed to create an attitude where women can continue to take advantage of the traditional advantages granted to all women while symultainously demanding the legal advantages of modern legislation.

This isn't creating a position of equality, nor the conditions for it. It is creating a position of superiority, led by the likes of Shelia Jefferies.

Now you can continue to stick your head in the sand, while claiming to support the most trendy of notions. But these people are telling children that all men are rapists. That their fathers are rapists. Young girls are being told that boys are rapists. Young boys are being told that they are and will be rapists.

Equally, the advantages, promised to women, by feminiism are intended and reserved for white women. Moreover, educated, middle class white women.

How very tready is that?

What the f**k? I'm sick of your anti feminist posts. Yes I know there are some men hating feminists just as there are some feminists that hate women who want to be sex workers or housewives but they seem to be very much in the minority.

All I can say to you is you should get to know more feminists, follow feminist blogs etc because you have a very skewed view of feminism. Feminism is still very important today, women are still not equal to men, they don't get paid they same, they are blamed for being raped, many women still don't have acess to abortions and there are things that seem small like womens body hair being thought of as gross, the fact that words like twat and pussy are used as insults etc

I would really like to hear a well thought out answer as to why feminists who don't hate men, don't think all men are rapists and just want equality are bad.

[spacial]

The evidence, from prominent feminists is unequivocal. Those that dominate this movement have no interest in women's equality or equal rights, only their own power, which they claim on behalf of women.

I am very sorry that you find these points to be offensive. I have spend most of my life support a succession of movements, promoting equality. Equality for all, because while anyone enjoys privelege, all of us suffer.

But part of that uncompromising support for equality, for all, is to have the courage to stand up against, not just those who actively support division and privelege, it also includes those that have successfully hijacked equality movements and surreticiously converted these to Nazism and Fascism.

My breif political career was destroyed because I dared to write and publish a pamphelet accusing Israel of being preverted and dominated by racists. That led to me being, initially accused of anti-semitism. This was later altered to suggest that I am mentally ill, mentally handicapped, psychopathic and while I can't prove it, I lost my university place because of it.

I ahve no regrets. Even less when I see that, as the years have gone by, and especially in the last 14 or so years, the recognition of hijacking of decent people in Palestine, by Nazis has become increasingly recognised, especially outside the USA!

I have been opposing feminism for about even longer. Feminism has no place in women's equality. It is racist. It is sexist. It has no interest in equality.

Your claim Nathan: Feminism is still very important today, women are still not equal to men is a case in point. A large part of the responsibility for this is because of those that dominate feminism. You cannot create equality by destorying it. A woman who gets a job because she is a woman is being as patronised as a woman who is refused. You can choose to selectively deny some of the rhetoric supported by other feminists, but until you are able to understand the real implications of what remain, you have achieved nothing.

You cannot simply ignore the behaviour of a large section of prominate feminists. dismissing it as being nothing to do with you, while benefiting from their social and economic positions. Your support for sex workers, for example, is pointless and achieves nothing while prominate feminsts, such as Jefferies and co, continue to oppose any rights for these people.

Open your eyes man. Can you not see a connection between the likes of Angela Jefferies and those who oppress women? Can you not try to look at the bigger picture?

[Nathan.]

Your claim Nathan: Feminism is still very important today, women are still not equal to men is a case in point. A large part of the responsibility for this is because of those that dominate feminism. You cannot create equality by destorying it. A woman who gets a job because she is a woman is being as patronised as a woman who is refused.

What did you mean by "You cannot create equality by destorying it"? Also I never mentioned anything about women getting jobs for being women so don't try and throw me off the point.

You can choose to selectively deny some of the rhetoric supported by other feminists, but until you are able to understand the real implications of what remain, you have achieved nothing.
You cannot simply ignore the behaviour of a large section of prominate feminists. dismissing it as being nothing to do with you, while benefiting from their social and economic positions. Your support for sex workers, for example, is pointless and achieves nothing while prominate feminsts, such as Jefferies and co, continue to oppose any rights for these people.

I am not denying anything, I said I knew that there were problematic feminists.  I know there are many flaws with some of the mainstream feminists and I don't think anything is gained by ignoring it I actually think it's important for the other feminists to speak out aginst them, ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.

Open your eyes man. Can you not see a connection between the likes of Angela Jefferies and those who oppress women? Can you not try to look at the bigger picture?

You say that i'm missing the bigger picture but it's you who wont look at the rest of feminism. I readily admit there are some problems with mainstream feminsim and yes I can see the connection, feminists who think it's ok to restrict what a women does as a job are just as bad as the men the do the same and i'm not even sure they can be called feminists.

What exactly is your argument against feminsim?

[cynthialee]

Spacial;
I think that perhaps you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[Arch]

Feminism means supporting the statement: 'All Men Are Rapists.'

I think you might be missing that there are different types of feminists. In its most basic form, feminism is a movement seeks to establish equal rights for women. Feminism is not automatically predicated on man-hating. I've run into quite a few self-identified feminists who unequivocally do NOT believe that all men are pigs/rapists/whatever. I've also run into the other kind of feminist, the ones who do believe it--and some who were in between.

[spacial]

I'm not really sure there is much point in pursuing a discussion, (here), when the issue has become the word rather than the actions associated with it.

[spacial]

Perhaps this should be one of those "agree to disagree" things.

Sorry for my own words. I shouldn't have reacted so aggressively.

And next time I promise to use your expression instead of my rather pompous version.