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Legal recognition for non-opers !

Started by Anatta, May 26, 2011, 12:17:08 AM

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0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Well should they have???

Yes they should be eligible providing they meet the set out criteria
38 (79.2%)
No legal recognition should only be had by those who have had genital surgery
7 (14.6%)
Really don't give a toss
2 (4.2%)
Not given it much thought
1 (2.1%)

Total Members Voted: 45

Anatta

Kia Ora,

::)  As many of you here already know, the UK passed the Gender Recognition Bill back in 2004/5...One of the benefits of this bill was non-ops could apply for a gender recognition certificate and a new birth certificate, that is, if you're pre/non-op and for whatever reason [medical/ finances/ scalpel-phobia ] can't have surgery, as long as you fitted the criteria in place=been diagnosed-been on HRT and living as your psycho-sexual identity full time for a minimum period of two years and was prepared to sigh an affidavit  that you will never revert back to your birth-sex, then one could apply for a gender recognition certificate and later a new revised birth certificate...

::) Now one would think "all' sufferers and those who had suffered from "extreme" gender dysphoria[I personally believe one size doesn't fit all when it comes gender dysphoric levels] would be over the moon with the UK government's decision, however there are some "trans" folk [it would seem those who have already had surgery or are in a position to pay for it themselves] who feel that the UK government's somewhat  "compassionate" approach is wrong, and that one should "only" be granted legal recognition when one has had genital surgery...This to me sounds a little elitist  = "us and them"...  ::) But then that's just my opinion...

But some of those who oppose legal recognition for non-ops do have some valid points to their argument, one point in particular is the locker/changing room issue, cisgender people having to be "exposed" to an unsightly penis hanging between the legs of a busty blond or brunette in the communal showers...

So being respectful of the fact opinions are opinions and we all should respect each others...what do you think ?

Should legal recognition be stopped-if ones private parts haven't been chopped?


Metta Zenda :)         
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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justmeinoz

Hadn't realy thought about it, but it sounds fair enough seeing the applicants will have been living in role for 2 years or more.  It gets around discrimination against people who cannot have surgery for medical reasons, but are otherwise totally passable.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
  •  

Cen

Legal recognition should be available for non-ops.

Locker rooms will be an issue with or without it due to the mixture of physical sex characteristics (penis + breasts/vagina on otherwise male physique.)  Someone is going to see something unusual unless they flat out ban pre or non-op transgender individuals, which isn't acceptable.
  •  

Ann Onymous

Quote from: Kori on May 28, 2011, 09:40:13 PM
Legal recognition should be available for non-ops.

Locker rooms will be an issue with or without it due to the mixture of physical sex characteristics (penis + breasts/vagina on otherwise male physique.)  Someone is going to see something unusual unless they flat out ban pre or non-op transgender individuals, which isn't acceptable.

I guess it must be another example of me being 'elitist' or otherwise separatist then but, I'm sorry...I do not want to see persons with male genetalia in my locker rooms.  If a pre- or non-op wants to be use the equipment in the public areas of the club, fine...but I don't want a pre- or non-op in the shower or changing room with me. 
  •  

cynthialee

Considering the level of heated rhetoric over similar topics recently I think that perhaps it would be best to retire this topic for a week or two.

just so as to give folks a chance to step back and cool off
;)
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
  •  

Anatta

Kia Ora Cynthia,

::) I'm sure  members who happen to view this thread and wish to comment will "think" about how they will word their response, so as not to openly offend others  :eusa_naughty: ...

  ::) It's important for all members to express what's on their minds when it comes to such issues-without having to resort to any personal "attacks"  :icon_blahblah:  ...But Finger's Crossed...XX XX

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Janet_Girl

Should this even remotely begin to get heated, I will close it.  No more flame wars, people.
  •  

Anatta

Quote from: cynthialee on May 28, 2011, 10:18:39 PM
Considering the level of heated rhetoric over similar topics recently I think that perhaps it would be best to retire this topic for a week or two.

just so as to give folks a chance to step back and cool off
;)

Kia Ora Cynthia & Janet,

I don't recall reading any similar topics recently-I must have missed them... I was just hoping people would come up with what they feel is valid/persuasive  arguments either way [when I say arguments I don't mean personal "attacks"]...It's interesting to see how opinions differ greatly even amongst trans-people...

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Arch

Well, I live in the U.S., but I haven't had bottom surgery, and I don't know whether I ever will. Judging by the way some women reacted a year ago when I accidentally walked into their restroom, I will never be allowed in the women's locker room.

Nor would I ever want to be there.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Lisbeth

Since there's no such thing as real legal recognition for post-op people, this discussion is a chimera.
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
  •  

Kay

Hi Zenda,
.
Honestly, this is a hornet's nest of a question to ask due to the following:
.
#1:  Recognition of gender, and recognition of sex are two completely different things that
people even within the transgender community tend to conflate and confuse.
.
#2: Generally, in real world legal terms and legal application when people talk about sex "recognition," they're talking about physical sex.  (bathrooms, locker rooms, etc...)  Many within the transgender community like to ignore this fact, and what it means for and to those who are not transgender.
.
#3: There are major side-issues that complicate using surgery as a benchmark for "recognition"
Money and/or excessive rationing (for countries that do have coverage) make finances more
a part of the equation than sex/gender issues are.  Without correcting that to make it equally accessible to all, the question of legal recognition has too heavy of an overtone of the "haves" and "have nots."  It becomes an issue about poverty/privilege rather than sex/gender issues.
.
#4: Quality of surgery.  It's widely known that FTM bottom surgery is lacking in a realistic and functional end result.  The quality of such surgery needs to be accounted for when making it a benchmark provision of "recognition."
.
#5: The transgender community is generally about inclusiveness for all who are variant in any way.  To be completely inclusive of all variance is the legal equivalent of "anything goes"...because it cannot be rigidly defined else it lose it's inclusiveness.  "Anything goes" is the antithesis of law.  Many in the transgender community like to ignore the practical issues of law and speak about such things in theoretical/pie-in-the-sky terms only. (which...legally...gets all of us nowhere)
.
#6. The really gray areas of this center around reproductive and sexual freedom, along with the equal application of standards to all groups.  If FTMs can opt not to have surgery, why not MTFs? If an FTM can still bear children, is he a man?  Or is he not a man until he gives up that physical/reproductive ability?  If they're still considered a man, then can an MTF be considered a woman if they retain their male sexual function?  When you move outside of the rather rigid traditional idea of male and female bodies, it's a murky decision indeed on where to draw that line...especially when you start to give exemptions to one group over another...even if it be for practical considerations.
.
Those individuals (ie. Transexed) that see themselves as correcting/changing-sides on the sexual markers (and to whom financially and surgically those options are feasable) will often support more rigid requirements because they still see themselves as part of the current system.  Those that see themselves as something else than 100% male or 100% female will support less rigid requirements so that they can benefit from such recognition, without the need to go 'all the way.'  Still others would prefer to throw the system out altogether (and can often undermine productive discussion, since any practical change that can be made will not suit them).
.
#7: Usually, the complaints about "recognition" are about 'what I want,' and 'how it effects me,' whether or not such recognition makes sense.  It's about the rights and privilege that such recognition conveys...which legally may sometimes be possible (and make more sense) to fulfill through different means.  Regardless, people get very offended when you oppose their method, even if you support their access to those rights and privileges through other means.
.
Stepping contrary to any of the above generally is seen as a personal afront, and an attack on their rights....which means stepping on someone's toes and offending them...and more often than not sends threads like this into a quick downward spiral ending with a LOCKED! status.
.
.
Well...it's not an exhaustive list of the reasons this is a hornet's nest, but it's a start. 
Personally, due to the complications involved in the real world, I think the UK law is a step in the right direction, and provides a solution to those that are not financially/medically able to proceed any further.  As long as it doesn't leave trans individuals in limbo as neither legally male or female, I'm all for it.
  •  

rejennyrated

#11
Ok, I'm not going to answer the poll because none of the options corresponds to my view, which is complex, as you might expect. Indeed Zenda I have to say that if, as you claim, you did not intend to stir things up then the use of inflammatory language like "I don't give a toss," rather than the less potentially offensive "Other – please explain" was, in my view somewhat unwise.

If people read this post I would ask you please read ALL of it IN DETAIL and don't just skim it or you will not understand my view properly and may end up getting needlessly upset because you think I am saying something that I am not. I repeat, my view is complex and subtle and has been developing over a long period of time.

Firstly let me clearly state that I believe that everyone deserves legal recognition and protection appropriate to their full needs, BUT that does not mean that this recognition has to be identical for two slightly differing sets of needs. Indeed to try to apply the exact same rules when there are hard physical differences may actually risk making the legislation ineffective and therefore serving the needs of neither group particularly well.

To give you an analogy apples and strawberries are both fruit. They both require cold storage but there are still subtle differences in the exact nature of the storage that they require. Any supplier who ignored this inconvenient truth would soon have a lot of spoiled fruit.

Anyone reading the briefing notes submitted to the drafting team for the UK gender recognition act will find a submission from Jenny D. & Alison B. in which we argued that the act should indeed be at least partly predicated on genital surgery. By this we did not mean to imply that non ops should be completely unrecognised or protected, but that perhaps there should be separate categories of recognition created appropriate to the exact situation of the person applying.

To save you googling it you can read the full text of our submission here http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/jt200203/jtselect/jtrights/188/188we27.htm however I would ask you to bear in mind that our views have altered slightly in the eight years that have passed since that submission was drafted.

Our basis for saying what we did at that time was that we felt that the wider population might not accept an act founded on a different basis, and therefore the law might become unworkable. Happily those concerns have proved incorrect, and insofar as that is the case I am happy to say that my view has changed somewhat.

That said, as I feared, there have been some difficulties caused by the act's inclusiveness, for example in the provision of certain services, where, thanks to the doubt about the genital status of a gender recognized person, the law against discrimination has been amended to remove certain protections the absence of which are particularly important to postop people. Likewise the criteria used to support the inclusive nature of the act themselves ironically sometimes discriminate against intersex people who now cannot get their documents amended because they do not fit the diagnostic selection criteria laid down.

So my view now is that that all three categories deserve separate tailor-made protections and recognition. None is more deserving than the others, but as they present different legal issues and indeed are likely to face slightly different social challenges the law would actually serve ALL groups better by a more profiled approach. That is in an ideal world.

HOWEVER – the bottom line is that we don't live in an ideal world, and if the choice is between the flawed but inclusive act that we have, and leaving non op community out in the cold entirely then the inclusive approach is clearly the more compassionate course to take.

Finally I hereby give notice that there are those of us who find the hurt, hatred, and anger, that surrounds this whole debate, to be profoundly unsettling and upsetting. I have been giving serious thought to whether my presence in this community serves any useful purpose other than to needlessly upset me when I read some of the mistrust and vitriol that surrounds topics like this.

I am not yet at a point where I am about to announce my departure, but I would appeal to you ALL to debate this with mutual respect please. I hold certain views. That does not mean that I do not value and respect others who hold differing views. My views may be wrong, so may theirs, but each of us can only speak from our own experience. By all means disagree with me but PLEASE – no hate – because it will achieve nothing but further destruction and weakening of all of us.
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Sarah B

I'm sorry to say, but the Gender Recognition Act 2004, is not superior.   Yes it seems superior in the sense it allows all those who cannot have surgery and those who have had surgery provided that they satisfy the following condition.

But subsection (1) is not complied with unless a report required by that subsection and made by—
  (a) a registered medical practitioner, or
  (b) a chartered psychologist,
practising in the field of gender dysphoria includes details of the diagnosis of the applicant's gender dysphoria.

The problem I have with this legislation is the part where it says "includes details of the diagnosis of the applicant's gender dysphoria".  I have never ever suffered from gender dysphoria and I do not suffer from it now.  I have been asked to apply under the UK track for my gender recognition certificate and I find it absolutely repugnant that I have to submit myself to a 'psychologist' in England and be diagnosed with 'gender dysphoria', or that I was mentally ill.  There are a lot of individuals who will refute the diagnosis is invalid.

The act should allow those who have had appropriate surgery to match their gender, to be granted their recognition certificate so that they can get their birth certificate amended.

Legal recognition should be available to all non-ops and post ops, provided that the "diagnosis of gender disorder" is not a prerequisite and minimal requirements are satisfied.

Yes, I also find the 'Locker Room' a problem.  However, I will leave this part of the discussion for a more appropriate thread and let us just deal with the legal recognition of our gender only in this thread.

My kindest regards
Sarah B
Be who you want to be.
Sarah's Story
Feb 1989 Living my life as Sarah.
Feb 1989 Legally changed my name.
Mar 1989 Started hormones.
May 1990 Three surgery letters.
Feb 1991 Surgery.
  •  

rejennyrated

Quote from: Sarah B on May 29, 2011, 03:58:53 AM
The act should allow those who have had appropriate surgery to match their gender, to be granted their recognition certificate so that they can get their birth certificate amended.
A point which, if you read my submission, was indeed made loud and clear at the time, and was sadly ignored.
  •  

Miniar

I live in Iceland.
A name change equals getting your gender changed.
I've gotten my name changed so there's no reason what so ever for anyone to force me into the women's locker room or restrooms to the discomfort of everyone in there, myself included, even if I have a vagina.

It seems unreasonable to set up a system in which a person has to procure her own SRS at an unrealistic cost and/or has very limited choices towards SRS and none of them good and yet a person has no recognition of any kind as their gender until "after" SRS.
If SRS was covered and the options were good then it would be easy enough to say "okay, then you'll complete this process and get all your legal documents fixed at the same time", but that's just not how it is.

By refusing to change the legal documents until after SRS it implies that a trans man isn't a man until after surgery and a trans woman isn't a woman until after surgery while putting them in a system that makes surgery difficult, sometimes impossible, to obtain. It puts a lot of people in a state of limbo from which there is no escape.

It isn't about locker rooms or bathrooms, it's about being able to sign your name and tick "male" or "female" as is appropriate without having to have a surgery which you may not be able to get at all.
It's about being recognized as "yourself" rather than being stuck in limbo.
Limbo can kill one's spirits.

It isn't about locker rooms or bathrooms, but even if it was, it doesn't just handle the question of the "penis" in the women's locker room.
But it also handles whether or not a trans man should be "forced" to use the women's locker room. It would mean that Buck Angel would have to be in the women's locker room. 

Which is worse? Really?

I have a mtf friend who's almost a full foot shorter than me. Passes without a shadow of a doubt. Has a sweet, soft voice, without needing to do any vocal training. Has been on HRT only a few months but she's already grown a lot in the chest area. But she hasn't had srs yet, but she will, in time.
Me, I'm 6'2, my voice is as deep as my dad's, I'm flat chested and even freshly shaved my face has a bit of a shadow to it. I couldn't pass for female if I tried. But I haven't had srs and likely never will because the options available to me are not... good enough.

She would feel self conscious going through the locker room and try to avoid letting that part of her be seen, but me, I'd feel like I was in completely the wrong locker room.
She could wrap a towel around her midsection and choose where she dresses and undresses to minimize the discomfort she'd possibly be able to cause others and thus herself, but no amount of wrapping up in towels will minimize the fact that should I walk into the women's locker room I'd be a MAN in the WOMEN'S locker room, not only in my eyes but in the eyes of anyone who were to glance my way.




"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
  •  

Lisbeth

Quote from: Helena on May 29, 2011, 02:19:42 AM
This may sound elitist but the uk is definitely superior to the rest of the world in a lot of ways.
Don't get too elitist. It was E. U. Human Rights Court that forced the U. K. to be like it is.
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
  •  

pixiegirl

Only in the size, shape and colour of the cucumber...
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Anatta

Kia Ora,
::) All interesting points of view so far and thanks for keeping it civil...

However, if one feels a person should not have "legal" recognition of their psycho-sexual identity after meeting all the requirements as specified in the first post- does this mean they should be allocated "third" gender status ? Or on legal documents still be seen as a "man in a dress" Or "woman in pants" ? [OK I know the "woman in pants" part does not have the same clout to it, but I'm sure you get what I mean]...

Slightly off topic but something to ponder too......

I have a "trans" friend who has in the past said she doesn't think those who have no chance of "totally" blending in as their psycho-sexual identity in public should {on "compassionate" grounds I might add] be allowed to have genital surgery...In the not so distant past the medical and mental professionals also thought along the same lines "If one's birth sex remained quite obvious, then for their own good[mental wellbeing] they shouldn't be allowed to have life changing surgery!

I would say to a certain extent nowadays some mental health professional who deal with trans-people still think the same...However they are not against trans-people having surgery, but just wanting what "they" feel is the best option for them-in other words concerned about how they would cope with the pressure of running society's gauntlet...

Again I suppose this could be seen as another "US & THEM" issue...

::) BTW some members "really don't give a toss either way"-hence why I added this to the options list

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Ann Onymous

Quote from: Zenda on May 29, 2011, 04:00:02 PM
Slightly off topic but something to ponder too......

I have a "trans" friend who has in the past said she doesn't think those who have no chance of "totally" blending in as their psycho-sexual identity in public should {on "compassionate" grounds I might add] be allowed to have genital surgery...In the not so distant past the medical and mental professionals also thought along the same lines "If one's birth sex remained quite obvious, then for their own good[mental wellbeing] they shouldn't be allowed to have life changing surgery!

I would say to a certain extent nowadays some mental health professional who deal with trans-people still think the same...However they are not against trans-people having surgery, but just wanting what "they" feel is the best option for them-in other words concerned about how they would cope with the pressure of running society's gauntlet...

cannot speak to other countries, but practitioners in the States DO have to be concerned not only about professional ethics but legal liability if they were to sign off on a procedure that essentially trades one problem for another arguably more serious problem...

There is a valid argument that signing off on surgery for those who don't have a chance in hell of "passing" or otherwise blending into society is not truly in the patient's best interest...and to sign off on a procedure in that case places the particular practioner (or practitioners) in the same category as those that continue to cater to the plastic surgery junkies...

Just because a check will clear the bank does NOT mean you have to accept a particular case...it is just as true for medical practioners as it is in my area of expertise (criminal law).
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pixiegirl

Unfortunately Val, thats just too simplistic. The world is not that black and white for that to work. I'm not taking a shot, it's just too unrealistic a viewpoint for me. There are far too many situations that would require exceptions or workarounds for it to be feasable. That being said, I would honestly like your point of view on the following, which are some of the reasons I have for disagreeing.

Firstly, if you require surgery for legal recognition, then intent for surgery is not enough. Where does that leave people in the process of transition? You believe it should be legally permissable for a hospital, for example,to place an MtF years into the process, that is unrecognisable as a male unless facing you naked into an all male ward, since they're still legally male? If not, then we are into making exceptons, and where do they start and stop? Can be recognised officially as you present in school, or school except for bathroom and locker room..... Work, except for tax purposes... on government ID or not.... where does it end? It's no different to the mess now.

Then what if it's not possible, or more dangerous than usual to get surgery? For example if you have HIV.... or if you are diabetic... or if you have a congenital defect somewhere critical? All surgery carries risk.. it's one thing to go under when there is a couple of percent chance of not waking up, but what if you have a congenital heart defect that rases the chance of death or stroke to over 80 or 90%?
Even if they could find a surgeon willing to risk it, is it fair to give someone that ultimatum if they want to be legally recognised as who they are, especially if they can come to an accomodation within themselves that they'd rather be alive and one step short than take that huge risk of death or brain damage or paralysis? Or are we back to exceptions, and even then who determines them? How much of an extra risk level is 'too much'?
In fact, if surgery is required for legal recognition, should it even be legal to prescribe hormones and give therapy to someone unlikely to be able to have surgery... I'd say yes, but what about the people actually making the decision to take on a patient or allocate the money?

Also, where does this place FtM's? The bottom surgery options for the men are pretty abysmal compared to the MtF surgery, and many guys choose not to undergo it due to the state of medical science currently. (Apologies to any guys reading who have and are happy with their bottoms :p I'm just parroting the majority opinion of FtM's I know.. and the ones I know that had it done that I've talked with about it all said it was a factor in their decision, so.....) Should people be refused legal recognition as men because their 'full monty' operation isn't as advanced as the options for MtF's?

And being objective, having 'appropriate' surgery as anything less than everything available just won't fly. If 'only' a mastectomy qualifies a FtM for legal rights, then there is no legal argument that would ever work that would prevent a MtF who 'only' had a breast augmentation from claiming the same. A hysto/oophrectomy is matched by a vasectomy/orchiectomy in terms of medical outcomes.
Unless you enshrined discrimination in recognition legislation in terms of what needs to be done to 'make' someone a legally acceptable man vs legally acceptable woman it's all or nothing, unless you want the same situation as now, just with more red tape.

Stopping here, 'cos I'm spending waay more time then I intended to on this.



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