Shedding some light

[Jamie D]

Talking of particles, hear this 'un, the possibility that CERN have discovered neutrinos moving faster than light - they have recorded it above the standard number of times that qualify discovery, but want to be cautious.

CERN have discovered neutrinos moving faster than light

I can't see that.

[Sevan]

Being bigender...it's like a yin yang (for me.)
There's Evan who has that little spot of Sara, there's Sara who has that little spot of Evan and there's the whole; which is Sevan. An attempt at incorporating them both into the whole...most the time that works, that's a happy space, it's fine and shared...and Sara and Evan bicker and disagree, they love each other and agree...it's all in my head...mostly. None of that spills out and is expressed for fear of appearing crazy. For fear of appearing like someone with multiple personalities, for stigma...there's many reasons to just keep this to myself. Cyndi knows of the identities. She knows there's still division of self...that rift never was healed. But it's not bad or painful for me most the time. It's just the way my mind works. It's split in two. That's ok. We work together...most the time. It's when we don't work together that dysphoria kicks in and is nasty.

[ativan]

There's Evan who has that little spot of Sara, there's Sara who has that little spot of Evan and there's the whole; which is Sevan.

I go through much of the same. The dysphoria is nasty. The resulting depression for me is really bad.
You'll always be Sevan to me. One of the really cool people I have crossed paths with many times in the forest.
Always a good time.

Ativan

[suzifrommd]

So in your own words, perhaps even describing yourself...Just what is/who is an androgyn?

I'm understanding it to be someone whose gender identity is not either largely a traditional male or largely a traditional female.

This definition is kind of a cop-out since it says what an androgyne *isn't* rather that what it is.

I actually like this because, it becomes inclusive. It includes people like me, a male with a generous helping of female traits, characteristics and preferences bundled in as well as people who feel themselves to be part of an as yet unnamed third gender and people who don't see themselves as having any gender at all.

I'll have to say that the discover of the term was such a wonderful, magnificent moment for me. I don't think I understood what I was (other than that I was different from just about everyone I knew) until I came across Androgyne. Actually I stumbled across "gender-variant" first, which appears to have been superseded.

There will come a day when I'm comfortable telling people I am an androgyne and it will tell them so much about myself in one three-syllable word.

It's amazing how much a word can matter.

[Christine]

OR HOW ABOUT THIS:      Someone who no longer cares what gender they are. They are who they are and act according to how they feel inside. I am a simple minded person and I guess my definition shows that!

[Taka]

that's an interesting definition. i have no idea what gender i am any longer, all i know is that i have to sew myself traditional costumes for both genders or i'll feel somewhat incomplete

though i do worry a little about breaking tradition to this degree. mom would want to kill me for it, probably. but the others would hopefully accept it the same way they accepted my ever changing hair colors

[foosnark]

National Coming Out Day was last week, and I spent some time writing up a brief FB post.  This required me to be succint and maybe oversimplify a bit.

I wound up writing that "Two-Spirit" was closest to my experience, minus the cultural appropriation.  And that generally, I have no trouble going through life in a male body, getting sirred, and so on -- that mostly it's an inner thing for me.

This is what I've come back to -- the same kind of insight I had about this when I was 17 or so.  Informed a lot more by forums like this, books on trans issues and stories of nonbinary people, and a lot of thought and experimentation.  Trying on labels more so than clothes or cosmetics.

I think I may even settle into this.

[Sevan]

I work at an LGBT youth center and I'm in charge of presentations and education (among many other jobs...) and one thing we do is ask people their preferred pronouns. It's part of our "check in" every day. Some take this very silly....and it bothers me. So I have created an idea that I really hope will help explain some of the experience of trans* people.

Imagine a world where we didn't use he/she/ze/etc. Instead, we use your sexual orientation. Everyone goes by gay, les, bi, pan, het. When you're young everyone of course assumes you're het. If you're LGB, then it's time to come out. As you do...people might try to talk you out of it, "forget" to call you correctly by your chosen label.."oops! That's right...you're gay. Sorry...I forgot."
"Pan? Gah...that's so hard! I've never heard that before until now. Are you sure? Pan? It just sounds so weird! Doesn't roll of my tounge very well..."

Because it's language, it's based largely on stereotype and appearance. So often times, new people to your life will get it wrong. You're het but they assume you les. You're bi but they assume you gay or het. Constantly correcting people can be frustrating. Why can't they just get it right?!

There's the rare person who will ask you first what you're pronouns/identity is...and they're like a cup of cool water!

Going through life like this, being questioned, not "passing" as your identity sometimes. How does it feel?

[omdorastrix]

Androgyne has two semi- competeing definitions in my head:

One is as an asthetic borrowing cues (makeup, hair, cut & style of clothes, etc) from both genders as well as emphasising cues that both are shared and non-gendered.

The other is as an identity.  And for me it boils down to anyone who has a gender identity that combines aspects of both stereotypical genders, and also aspects that are common.

I'm bit of a sciencey type, and I like classification because it helps me sort of understand things.  I see gender as a spectrum that goes from a state of "maleness" on one end and "Femaleness" on the other. Using that logic I see a few broad gender "classifications": Male (mostly to one side of the spectrum), Female (Mostly to the other side) and Genderqueer (In the middle OR not "male" or "female").  I see Androgynes (and Bi-gender and 2-spirit) having more leeway and being more varied in their expression and in their identity.  No two are exactly alike.

I self-identified about 2 years ago. It was shortly after a heated discussion ( I wouldn't call it a fight) that centered around my few attempts at crossdressing.  I see it now as me challenging my identity in a way that my partner accepted and mostly encouraged. Again it was my partner who pointed out: "maybe you're doing this to yourself because you're not male, maybe you're halfway?" The thought actually brought some relief, and much soul searching and research later I decided that androgyne would be a good enough label for me for now. I want to integrate 'both parts' of me so that I'm not surpressing one or the other and then see where I end up once I get there.

As I've explored this i have been surprised at just how early of a memory I have at being awkward when dealing with female-only gender things.  Like dealing with my mother's clothes in the laundry room, and feeling left-out because I didn't feel like I could play with the girls.  I've never fit in perfectly with the boys either and was a bit of a loaner through the mid grades and high-school.  I found that I made friends easier, and stronger, with girls than with boys. I'd always had a tough time fitting in as a child and I think I deliberately suppressed this part of me so that I wouldnt give the bullies ammunition, it took more than 10 years for that momentum to fade.   I've never really dealt with depression or other stong emotions over my gender until after I had "given myself permission" to do the girly stuff I never had the chance to do.

I'd always been an ally, and to be honest I think I was a bit jealous of these people that seemed to know who they were and decided that they would be it no matter what.

<3


Edited to remove half-thoughts and some spelling... (GAH!)

[Shantel]

Good post omdorastrix, seems like you've found the right place, welcome to a world we all commonly share in this forum!

[ativan]

I'm bit of a sciencey type, and I like classification because it helps me sort of understand things.  I see gender as a spectrum that goes from a state of "maleness" on one end and "Femaleness" on the other. Using that logic I see a few broad gender "classifications": Male (mostly to one side of the spectrum), Female (Mostly to the other side) and Genderqueer (In the middle OR not "male" or "female").  I see Androgynes (and Bi-gender and 2-spirit) having more leeway and being more varied in their expression and in their identity.  No two are exactly alike.

I'm very much the 'sciencey type' and classifying things just comes with it I suppose.
I have totally dropped the idea of a spectrum with male and female on each end. Why are they the ends?
It doesn't make sense anymore.
It was someone on here (I know who  ) that put it as male and female are like a highway and non-binary isn't something in the middle of them, it is it's own highway.
This makes total sense to me, for the reason that we don't follow the same terrain or destinations as the other highways do.
Male is a Gender. Female is a Gender. Androgyn is a Gender.
Any non-binary definition is it's own highway (or road or path if you prefer).
It totally makes sense to think of sexuality this way also. There isn't a middle of a spectrum. There are other's.
But what makes it that way to me, is that we all don't have the same destinations. So a spectrum just doesn't work.
This took a long time for me to really grasp the concept completely. But it was a long time in coming.
We are just not people that are between MTF and FTM, nor are any of us in between male and female.
There is a road that goes by the forest here, but it isn't a highway that goes directly from Male City to Female City.
We are our own gender, not a blend, not a mix. As people, we can all share characteristics. We have always done that.
I don't know, but it makes it easier to view things for what they are that way.
I never liked the impression that people have that we are nothing more than something in between two genders.
It's why they keep having expectations of us that we will suddenly realize that we really are just one or the other.
I call Bullsh*t on that idea. It happens sometimes, but it also goes the other way, too.
We are who we are, not a mix of something that can't define us.
Ativan

[omdorastrix]

I acknowledge that the spectrum analogy isn't complete. Keeping an analogy simple, or generalizing something almost always leaves something out.

It's a bolt-on to the existing system and creates a place where I feel more comfortable, when perhaps we all simply need a new system to handle it.

Change is hard, we're early adopters, there's bound to be bumps in the road.  Everyone will come around.  When something this good comes around eveyone will want a piece.  People aren't walking around with mobile telegraphs in their pocket...

[Mayonnaise]

Androgyne: Half way between the girl I know I'm not and the boy they know I'm not, and yet somehow also harder to get to than either of those places. It's maddening really. There's a reason I spent a few years thinking maybe I was a closeted FTM.

8^/

[brainiac]

Androgyne: Half way between the girl I know I'm not and the boy they know I'm not

I really identify with this. I guess it captures some of the frustration I feel as well. I also spent a year thinking I must be a closeted FTM transsexual, because that was the only option I knew about (and thought no one would consider "in between" to be a legitimate identity, which is thankfully--but slowly--changing). My feelings that that identity didn't sit quite right with me felt like I was trying to shy away from "actually acknowledging being trans".

But thanks to Susan's, and you guys, and a whole lot of therapy and experimentation, I have hope now. *internet bro-hugs to all*

[Shantel]

I really identify with this. I guess it captures some of the frustration I feel as well. I also spent a year thinking I must be a closeted FTM transsexual, because that was the only option I knew about (and thought no one would consider "in between" to be a legitimate identity, which is thankfully--but slowly--changing). My feelings that that identity didn't sit quite right with me felt like I was trying to shy away from "actually acknowledging being trans".

But thanks to Susan's, and you guys, and a whole lot of therapy and experimentation, I have hope now. *internet bro-hugs to all*

It would seem as if we are on the outer cusp of a shift, gender being only one of the many three dimensional aspects of human life to be affected.

[Mayonnaise]

But thanks to Susan's, and you guys, and a whole lot of therapy and experimentation, I have hope now. *internet bro-hugs to all*

*Joins in the bro-hugging.*

8^)

[ativan]

Understanding Gender Expression Diversity

Nice little video.
Ativan

[Lo]

I'm not androgyne, as the impression I've always gotten (and the word itself doesn't contradict this) is more along the lines of genderqueer or bigender than anything else. It is a gender/set of genders that involve mixing and matching certain quantities of binary-gendered qualities, and that combination matters a great deal on the inside.

I don't see it as The Third Option (the "nonbinary" umbrella is the third option), but rather one of many, and I have definitely never felt that I could relate to it as someone more in the agender/genderless/neutrois camp. I have no internal concept of gender other than what I've strained to learn over the course of my life for the sole purpose of surviving in the world. All heavily gendered clothing and behavior feels like drag, all pronouns fall flat (I have no real preference for one over another), and even secondary sex characteristics are no more than fashionable accessories to me. Granted I can't take them off, but I can minimize their appearance.

For a while, and near the beginning of my gender questionings, I had no idea that there could be identities that existed independently of the binary, and so I thought I might've been bigender. If I didn't feel like either one, and couldn't be something else entirely, then surely I must be some combination of both? Anyways, I'm much happier now, and much more understanding of myself. And though I think "androgyne" is a bit antiquated of a name for nonbinary identities, I'm not gonna make a fuss about it here. :]

[EdekStaszek]

There was one newbie awhile back who got freaked out when I posted the Charlie the unicorn video for them. 

Why would you....
oh..
"Charrrrlie.... CHARRRLIE!!!"
"WHAT!?"
"Were on a bridge Charlie!"
". . . . ."
I still don't get why you posted it though.
-[Undecided]

[ativan]

Non-binaries were treated as mythical or non-existent, just like a unicorn.
I take it as an inside kind of kidding around. Unicorns in the forest, here.

Also, this area of Susan's was originally called Androgyne Talk,
and there were considerations and suggestions made to change it,
but its now more traditional for here. It's not going to be changed.
It is the area for non-binary type people, which covers so many labels, that to choose one just doesn't cut it.
Even the use of non-binary is not a correct umbrella for some, but they are here and accepted.
That's the most important thing around here.
Not any label, but the acceptance of each individual, regardless.
Transsexuals that are somewhere in their journey of transition are always welcome.
And there are a variety of people that just pop in every so often. Positive attitudes go a long way.
As well as Charlie the Unicorn videos.
Ativan