Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I think that I am strongly attracted to femininity rather than womanhood.   There are aspects about being a woman that I either don't like or they make me feel uncomfortable.   Because my sister has a huge number of friends I get to see and meet just about every possible female personality.   I know shy girls, loud girls, girls whose language is foul, girls whose idea of a cuss word is 'damn'.   I know girls who talk about sex 'and doing it' all the time just like a boy, and girls who blush at the mention of kissing a boy goodnight.  I know girls who are feminine in manner but not feminine in dress, I know girls who are feminine in dress but not feminine in manner.   I  even know slightly a girl whom I suspect might be an FTM, or she just could be a young woman who likes beer and pool and 'fixing things'?

What all these girls/young women have in common is that they are very interested in men, dating, love, and babies.  Even those girls who say 'I am going to be a senior partner in a law firm by the age of 35'  still want to have a husband and children and a rewarding home life.

I am feminine in dress and feminine in manner and rather overtly to.  I have noticed that while there are girlie-girls they are not all that common.   In addition my mother has said that my taste in panties, socks is not something a woman would consider wearing.    I do dress in a way more suitable to a girl than a woman, and I wonder if this strong attraction to girlishness is actually a sign that I have mixed up a strong feminine side with the desire to be female?   

Of course another explanation could be that this 'girlishness' is a manifestation of a female brain/mind.     I am so very fed up analysing and categorizing myself.  I am just me.

You need to tell us what are your definitons of "femeninity" and "womanhood" are

QuoteI am so very fed up analysing and categorizing myself.  I am just me.

Being just me is all you need to be.  There are a million different variations of women...No set rules as you have observed...so why wouldn't that apply to you as well?

Personally, what I want to be and what I find attractive are different things.

I wear socks and I'm a woman, dammit!!!!     

Quote from: Happy Girl! on December 01, 2011, 05:58:25 PM
What all these girls/young women have in common is that they are very interested in men, dating, love, and babies.  Even those girls who say 'I am going to be a senior partner in a law firm by the age of 35'  still want to have a husband and children and a rewarding home life.

I don't want a husband! Oh god, I must not be a woman, I've made a terrible mistake... oh wait no I'm just a dyke. :P

Really, the only person who can know what you are and what you want to do with your life is you. It's kind of irrelevant what all the other girls are like.

Maybe you are just making up for lost time? A lot of trans women go a bit underage for a while after they come out. Most eventually get over it.

I spent the day shopping yesterday and got dress, tops, skirts from several stores and also looked at all the lingerie but have plenty bras and pants so didn't need to buy any but the vast choice of styles available and being bought does make me ask what style of pants yours are if your mother says they are not what other women would wear.

care to describe better so the rest of us don't fall into the inappropriate pants trap?

I'm really uninterested in femininity, in general - but I am female.

Quote from: Happy Girl! on December 01, 2011, 05:58:25 PM
What all these girls/young women have in common is that they are very interested in men, dating, love, and babies.  Even those girls who say 'I am going to be a senior partner in a law firm by the age of 35'  still want to have a husband and children and a rewarding home life. 

........ and the medical fraternity have the hide to call this "gender dysphoria"??  (Dysphoria: Abnormal depression AND discontent ref: Wikidictionary) 

As I stand in the queue (actually jumping up and down being a better description) for GCS, this is where my mind drifts to with monotonous regularity. For goodness sakes; why else would I want to go through this?  I must be somewhere close to being normal, after all.

Be safe, well and happy
Lotsa huggs
Catherine

Quote from: Jaime on December 01, 2011, 11:46:28 PM
I wear socks and I'm a woman, dammit!!!!   

lol, that should have said that I sometimes wear men's socks. 

"Girlieness" is actually very common in MTF's, as they are reliving their teenage years that they missed out on.
No reason to try to suppress girlieness at all, and I do understand why the aspect of "Womanhood" can actually be considered a tad boring, for lack of better term.

If you feellike a girl, then be a girl.

 Well i think that's where certain privileges that are not talked about can come into play.
I think biological women that pass as biological women can wear girlish things and it is not as criticized,
but if you are a trans woman, how you look and perceive femininity is under the microscope by every one.
it's a harsh world, but i say own it if you are pleased with what you see in the mirror.

Unfortunately, we probably can't wear girly things without people wondering if we are trying to relive our
younger years but when bio women do it, it's cute or can be applied to their youthful personality.
While I think their could be truth to that, it's also a pile of crap.

Honestly, I think femininity is the act of doing things that society considers more female than male, though there is no law book saying what males and females act like. And I think womanhood is really most an idea of a woman becoming fully mature around age 40 and subduing quite profoundly to the "wife/mother" role. Overall, like said above, there's absolutely no "typical" way a woman (especially young women) acts, and the people who actually go out and experience life and have tons of girl friends know this. The folks who think there's a strict behavior when it comes to women are folks who base women off what their mother was, or whichever girl they were most jealous of in school.

I've my entire life seen males and females as psychologically equal, but I plain think certain types of men are "sexually" attractive to my bottom-role mind (and no type of woman), so it plays a big part in why I want to be a girl. If every single man on this earth found other men to be attractive no matter what their partner looks like, I'd say I'd have much less of a face-value issue in my life. However, there are many other reasons I want to be a girl too, it's just, if I actually had a partner right now who somehow, for once in my life, was attracted to me without my transition, then this transition road would indeed be easier, I'd have a bit more confidence. Many people already have that blessing because they pass enough, or have such loose standards that they fall in love with obese asexual men who just do not provide passion for them.

I'm just so ugly/manly + high standard that it's been impossible for me to find a partner who loves me back, so actually, opposite to how psychiatrists think that you shouldn't transition because of sexuality/dating life preferences, I do think my very unique face+personality situation really plain out validates my cause. Other than that reason, I'll be honest and say my "hobbies/clothing style/personality" could work in either a man's or woman's body, as I act and dress very androgynously and don't have a HUGE problem with doing it, but I do hate my masculine body and face. Personally, I think that's sort of what femininity is, I want to look feminine all over, but I'm not interested really in being a part of strict "womanhood" - though, in my case, it may be a valid point to say I want to be a part of  "girlhood".

Quote from: Torn1990 on December 02, 2011, 07:18:22 PM
Well i think that's where certain privileges that are not talked about can come into play.
I think biological women that pass as biological women can wear girlish things and it is not as criticized,
but if you are a trans woman, how you look and perceive femininity is under the microscope by every one.
it's a harsh world, but i say own it if you are pleased with what you see in the mirror.

Unfortunately, we probably can't wear girly things without people wondering if we are trying to relive our
younger years but when bio women do it, it's cute or can be applied to their youthful personality.
While I think their could be truth to that, it's also a pile of crap.

It's really not a matter about "thinking" that alot of MTF's are trying to relive their youth, but a fact, as many of the MTF's have simply said so themselves.
And, as said, it is nothing bad, really, as the person doing it can after all sort of "re-live" their youth in a way that they now can control, which they couldn't earlier on.
I also consider it to probably be good for the "inner child" aswell, as to keep a "young" mind, so to speak.

On the other hand, it is ofcourse also somewhat tragic, as it, after all, is a result from a missed out youth that the person should have had but didn't.

Still, and as the saying goes; 'Better late than never'.

However, perhaps Japanese Crossdressers takes the cake, though.  ;D pink lolita 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNodrBsUxGQ&feature=related#)

I struggle with people (and especially trans women) assuming that because I'm a trans woman, then "of course" I want to appear "feminine", and all the uninvited advice I get about makeup (I don't wear it) etc, and the assumption that if I'm not wearing makeup and feminine clothing, it's because I'm "not confident enough to", because it's hard for people to imagine that some people just don't want to look like some other people.

I'm very clear that I'm a woman, I'm female - and that my preferred appearance would (if I'd managed to transition earlier in life) be to look like a woman who looks androgynous, like Shane, bless her. I don't know what my version of this is going to turn out to be at my age, but femininity (as a goal) has no more place in my sense of self than masculinity does.

I have this issue aswell, constantly thinking whether its womanhood or femininity...but I also know the more variety I see the more I know that some quirks in me arent all that odd

MAybe you could see it like one girl once said to me when she noticed me being silly over it : "You just started puberty over again by the looks of it and you might act and feel odd, but you'll get there and feel comfy eventually"

That was wisdom for me

Quote from: YinYanga on December 05, 2011, 07:16:59 PM
I have this issue aswell, constantly thinking whether its womanhood or femininity...but I also know the more variety I see the more I know that some quirks in me arent all that odd

MAybe you could see it like one girl once said to me when she noticed me being silly over it : "You just started puberty over again by the looks of it and you might act and feel odd, but you'll get there and feel comfy eventually"

That was wisdom for me

What conssitutes womanhood or feminity are but social constructs that very from time to time and from culture to culture. Pink was for boy in the 1800 America, not adter the 1920's. and so on and so forth.

And a large part is also just feeling like it

Quote from: Jen61 on December 05, 2011, 07:39:25 PM
What conssitutes womanhood or feminity are but social constructs that very from time to time and from culture to culture. Pink was for boy in the 1800 America, not adter the 1920's. and so on and so forth.

Are you saying that breastfeeding is a social construct?

And, if Femininity did not exist in Nature, than it will be difficult to explain why every Culture all over the World knows what a feminine male is.
Yeah yeah; "But that feminine male would be described differently by each Culture!"-  Not very, actually.
A feminine male would still according to every culture either Native American, modern European, ancient Biblical Times, Asian or whatever, be someone that cooks, sews, nits, associates with females, "talks like a girl", seeks the company of girls, and "does things in woman's style", and, as the Yuman Indians puts it; "Puts his hand before his mouth and laughs with a womans laugh".

Sure, several of these things can also be done by a Cis-male, but certainly not many Cis-males would chose to do all of them by own choise, just as generally quite few Transmen would do the same, as they are guys, and the brains of guys are wired differently.
If they weren't, Transsexualism wouldn't exist.

Quote from: Torn1990 on December 02, 2011, 07:18:22 PM

I think biological women that pass as biological women can wear girlish things and it is not as criticized, but if you are a trans woman, how you look and perceive femininity is under the microscope by every one.

I know quite a few biological women (a lot actually) who get a lot of weird stares if they try to wear clothing from the junior department. I have to admit, I've been guilty giving off a weird stare at a middle age (biological) woman dressing up in hello kitty goth stuff.

Who wants to dress like a middle-aged woman?   Maybe that is why girls and women are usually so fashion and style conscious.  They know that one day they will have to wear frumpy long skirts in sober colours, lumpy, frumpy cardigans, sensible shoes, and hairstyles that defy description.   Probably things are different in America, but once women get over a certain age, they are supposed to drop the long hair and go for a shortish, easily maintained 'quick-comb' style.

Wear whatever you like, stop worrying what other people think, so you dress a lot younger than your age if you like the styles, colours, etc then just do whatever helps you to maintain well-being.  Feeling good 99% of the time is the flower of existence.    For every so-called 'stare', for every supposed titter, you'll still feel good the great majority of the time. 
However, if you go with the herd, you won't get the judgemental looks but you won't get the strong feeling of well-being that is your birth right.    Something that you have forgotten is that we are not here to be bored, stressed, drained, depressed and exhausted.    We are here to feel good about ourselves almost all the time, you can tell to what extent you are alienated from your 'feeling great' birth right by your reaction to the last two sentences.   If your reaction was 'dream on sweetie-pie, I live in the real world'.  The only reason that the real world is so harsh is because people like you think and say to others such things like 'let's be realistic shall we?' 

Who was it that said 'the opposite of courage isn't cowardice, its conformity'?     Osho said ' Do not imitate...be yourself whatever the cost''.   Why are you so concerned with what cow-like 'fear the cemetery' people think?   Schopenhaeur once said to imagine a pianist coming off stage delirious  with joy at the rapturous applause.  Now while you have that image in your mind, imagine how that pianist felt when being told that his audience comprised of deaf-mutes!?*   You and I are surrounded by deaf-mutes!


* I originally typed 'death-mutes', interesting Freudian slip don't you think?

Really knew squat about manhood and masculinity now I don't have any notions about womanhood and femininity.

I think that stuff is always for others to apply to others. I'm simply me as I was always -since having past the second puberty- and that will just be what is.

Some days I dress frumpy, some too young, some not at all, it depends on my current mood.
Is that feminine or womanly? I guess it's just me...

My gg friends do their thing, I do mine, we all different after all.

Axélle

You've created an interesting topic here. The variety of opinions seems to reflect well the variety of the transgender experience. Something I learned after a couple of decades of self exploration is that there is really no one right way. It's completely OK to understand yourself and create your own custom version of this stuff. In the end, that's what we all do whether we realize it or not.

I very much see womanhood and femininity as very separate things. While I consider myself transgender, I am not transsexual, and I don't desire to entirely experience womanhood within myself. I do desire to experience femininity within myself and do so in many ways, though even with this I am fine with picking an choosing aspects. Also I believe it is possible for a g-male to be feminine without being effeminate. I know many g-women who are obviously feminine, but not the least bit effeminate.

Happy Girl, your interest in youthful feminine clothing is very common among transgender/crossdressers in the early period of self fulfillment. I've heard it described as going through a second adolescence. As a girl becomes a women she often goes into femininity in a more exaggerated way as sort of a catch up phase.  For genetic males who've repressed this part of themselves for years, this can be even more exaggerated. Enjoy your girlhood and don't worry about what people think for now. In time you'll probably tone it down a bit.

Lyric ~

it is impossible for a g-woman to be effeminate.
it is easy for a g-man to be effeminate.
one of most effeminate men I have seen had zero femaleness.
lots of most female men ie MtFs have zero effeminacy.

I wrote a poem years ago about the contrast between femininity and womanhood. 

Cisgendered perspective and all that,  but here it is for what it's worth.

Hag

The woman who lives in my soul
doesn't play in the minor
nights I am kept awake by
the crashing
and giddy laughter
as she flings the kitchen pots around my bed
and whittles my lipsticks down to stumps

I have found her on occasion
hiding spirits in my throat
used spirits
borrowed from the silent
the ones she has tickled into laughter
or tricked into lecture

she perches beside my ears
to assay the minute
the doubts that have lingered
she drowns them out with her banshee wails
or party horns

I have hidden her in the sock drawer
left her on doorsteps
basketed and blanketed
another war orphan
from the battles of love
the endless devotion of dedicated matriarchs

but then I find her
one leg hooked about each of my ears again
holding onto my hair for dear life
chittering in her ragged voice

when lovers roll over in my bed
she kicks me with pointy boots
yelps goon faced underneath my nylons
with her razor nails drawn
slashing loudly and then
mewling like a cat flung towards the sea


I have ignored her
spent hours talking her into sleep
and then covering her with a pillow
I have stabbed her through
with crochet hooks
slapped her silly with
wooden spoons



but

I can ignite a fire with my hair
and my voice is in the smooth tradition
of water washed stones
and the very thought of her
sends my hands rushing like
flocking birds
I am listening to her now....

Quote from: mixie on December 07, 2011, 02:14:34 PM
I wrote a poem years ago about the contrast between femininity and womanhood. 

Cisgendered perspective and all that,  but here it is for what it's worth.

Hag

The woman who lives in my soul
doesn't play in the minor
nights I am kept awake by
the crashing
and giddy laughter
as she flings the kitchen pots around my bed
and whittles my lipsticks down to stumps

I have found her on occasion
hiding spirits in my throat
used spirits
borrowed from the silent
the ones she has tickled into laughter
or tricked into lecture

she perches beside my ears
to assay the minute
the doubts that have lingered
she drowns them out with her banshee wails
or party horns

I have hidden her in the sock drawer
left her on doorsteps
basketed and blanketed
another war orphan
from the battles of love
the endless devotion of dedicated matriarchs

but then I find her
one leg hooked about each of my ears again
holding onto my hair for dear life
chittering in her ragged voice

when lovers roll over in my bed
she kicks me with pointy boots
yelps goon faced underneath my nylons
with her razor nails drawn
slashing loudly and then
mewling like a cat flung towards the sea


I have ignored her
spent hours talking her into sleep
and then covering her with a pillow
I have stabbed her through
with crochet hooks
slapped her silly with
wooden spoons



but

I can ignite a fire with my hair
and my voice is in the smooth tradition
of water washed stones
and the very thought of her
sends my hands rushing like
flocking birds
I am listening to her now....

Oh so very beoutiful !