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I imagine that those of the christian faith believe in creation as in "In the beginning..." etc.  But if that is the case the question I have is "Who or what created god"?

Was it us, or is there some other being, or larger creator who created god.  Is there a god of gods.  After all surely those who believe in a creator would have no problems in believing that there must have been a creator of creators.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Steph

Self created as far as I know.

Not too many things in existence can claim that either; Pretty special ;)

Hmm.. Well, there's a real simple answer to this one: Sophia created God.
Then comes the question of who created Sophia, though...

In the beginning, Sophia created everything. Just like that. Then God created Paradise, and in Paradise he created some humans. After a while, one offspring of these humans found his way to Earth. (Through a load of trial, order and Nod.)

The question of where Sophia comes from, though, is an interesting one, because it has no answers. Only speculation. Sophia could come from the minds of Humans, thus creating a lasting loop. Sophia could have always been there. Truth is: There isn't an answer to this question we could actually say is possible other than: Sophia came from our minds. The other theories are something you cannot trace, aren't plausible, and do not grand any answers as to the why.

That's why it's called Faith.

Steph,

The concept of infinity is one we can not understand.  We really do not understand the concept of time which can be viewed as the "fourth" dimension.  Some physicists claim there might be seven dimensions.  Who knows?

I believe our spirit lives on.  At what point in the future does our spirit die?  I will tell you it never dies.

Then how are we linked to the past?  Well we are linked to "God".  God is simply the reverse of forward infinity.  God also has "reverse" infinity.  A circle is a simple analogy for us.  A circle has no begining and no end.

I have asked mathematicians if 2 times infinity is bigger than infinity.  The answer is infinity is never ending.  How can you have a number bigger than infinity?  God goes back to the beginning of time and forward to the end of time.

Some physcists say the end of time is when no atom interacts with another atom and everything is randomly disbursed in the universe.  Hmm how many times has the universe come into existence?  Have we had an expanding then collapsing universe time and time again (big bang theory)?

I believe we have had more than a bunch of coincidences.   I believe everything is linked together.

Do you believe the universe ends?  (I think not.)  Where did matter come from? (God created matter?)  Can matter be transformed into energy? (Yes it can.)

We live on a medium sized planet revolving around a medium sized star, in one of countless galaxies in who knows how many universes.   I was baptized a Catholic, then lost my belief in anything, and then realized we are a being beyond a physical form. 

You remember the quote from Buzz Lightyear, "To infinity and beyond."  We are from infinity to infinity and we are linked to God.

W

In Mormon theology, god has a father, and so does he.  It goes on and on. According to the Mormons, since we are god's children, we too can become gods.

I don't buy into it, but that's what I grew up on.

Cindi

Everything arises from causes. Everything is subject to influences of other forces.
Your question depends upon what exactly you mean by "God". Some entity that is causeless? Present without being acted upon? Changeless but yet exerting effects and causing changes? So many logical twists and unsatisfactory conclusions and cultural biases.
Blessings, Tara

Ancient Vedic thought on it might be summed thusly:

Know this: the Universe is not created.

(And is, after a convention, eternal, and was always around.)

But they also say that it is cyclical, will die, essentially, and come around (and around, ad infinitum) again... that there is an ultimate limit (4.32 billion years to be precise...) to that which is created, @ which point the universe is completely destroyed and reabsorbed into "God" or Vishnu.
ONE MORE TIME!

[The Big Bounce:

According to some quantum loop gravity theorists, the Big Bang was merely the beginning of a period of expansion that followed a period of contraction. In this oscillatory universe hypothesis (originally attributable to John Wheeler), the universe undergoes an infinite series of oscillations, each beginning with a big bang and ending with a big crunch. After the big bang, the universe expands for a while before the gravitational attraction of matter causes it to collapse back in and undergo a Big Bounce. Although the model was abandoned for a time, the theory has been revived in brane cosmology as the cyclic model.]

A Buddhist will argue, sort of extending that thought, that anything caused is strictly temporary, that the only essential 'thing' is nothing (perhaps better stated as emptiness, Shunyata) 'itself'*. IE: that if it has causality, it is interdependent on the whole ball of wax, meaning tied to everything else with cause, and that a thing with no independent existence is empty of essence. (*: that an eternal self/soul cannot exist, except as uncreated, not-individualized, a sort of all-embracing wholeness.)

Physicists will have a real problem with the idea that a thing can be its own cause. However, it is not seen as what is called a vanishing probability. (note that this implies that nothing is impossible. EG: There have been experiments done at the quantum level that appear to show a thing having caused itself.)

Quote from: Wendy on May 09, 2007, 09:35:48 AM
I have asked mathematicians if 2 times infinity is bigger than infinity.  The answer is infinity is never ending.  How can you have a number bigger than infinity?

Picking nits now, but easily. You just multiply infinity (or, to be more exact, aleph-null) by itself. For instance, yes, there are as many natural numbers as there are even numbers, but there are more real numbers than that.

Returning back to the topic, I'm not sure the question is meaningful. The point about God is that He is so far beyond us that we cannot really comprehend it; His origins are so fundamental to His existence that it seems futile to try to figure out that one.

On another level, of course, the question can be answered: our view of God is really our view. In that sense, God created man in His image, but man created God in his image.

Nfr

The question is indeed absurd, though I think we all ask it at times. 

I like what one theologian said as a definition of God:  That than which nothing greater can be conceived.

Put simply, if there is a creation and we are part of it, God cannot be.  Else God is not God.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)

"I have asked mathematicians if 2 times infinity is bigger than infinity.  The answer is infinity is never ending.  How can you have a number bigger than infinity?"

NB: multiplying infinity is the same as dividing by zero, it is the definition of a mathematical absurdity. No Go: Won't Work. Try it on your computer, any computer.

"You just multiply infinity (or, to be more exact, aleph-null) by itself."

No. The aleph numbers differ from the infinity (∞) commonly found in algebra and calculus. Alephs measure the sizes of sets; infinity, on the other hand, is commonly defined as an extreme limit of the real number line, or an extremal point of the extended real number line. While some alephs are larger than others, ∞ is just ∞.

Aleph null concerns The cardinality of a set.
The cardinality of a set is a measure of the "number of elements of the set".

IE: The "cardinality" of a set is not defined as a specific object itself. A number is a specific object.

You need a number to multiply anything.

King James Version: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This May sound a little abstract, but maybe "The Word" created God.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 09, 2007, 12:01:42 PM
In Mormon theology, god has a father, and so does he.

But who is the mother? Men can't have babies. Sort of a rooster and the egg question, innit?

Wow, there sure are a lot of viewpoints on this one. I love these lines from Jurassic Park, as said by Dr. Ian Malcolm (Jeff Goldblum) and Dr. Ellie Sattler (Laura Dern):

Dr. Ian Malcolm: God creates dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates man. Man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs...

Dr. Ellie Sattler: Dinosaurs eat man. Woman inherits the earth.

In the end, we realize that the concept of "God" is rather difficult to wrap our finite minds around. After all, how can the finite even begin to comprehend the infinite? I've always looked at "infinite" and "eternity" as any existence outside of time; and completely unbound by the limits of the temporal. I believe Scripture teaches this as well.

So who created God? If I fall back on my theology I'd say, "God is the uncreated God; infinite and without limit." If I try to grasp it honestly, I'm forced to say something to the effect of:

"Beats the stuffing out of me!"

In the end, it's yet another great mystery to which I hope to find the answer when I step into eternity...

http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/whomadeGod.shtml

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The question is indeed absurd

My opinion is that the question is not at all absurd.

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I like what one theologian said as a definition of God:  That than which nothing greater can be conceived.

Human arrogance is truly a scary thing.

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But who is the mother? Men can't have babies. Sort of a rooster and the egg question, innit?

What makes you think Gods, and heck anything half way advanced, is even material, let alone divided between a male/female dichotomy?

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I believe we have had more than a bunch of coincidences.   I believe everything is linked together.

From what I know of it all, a true coincidence is one of the more rare things in existence. Tonns of stuff sure seems like it though!

;)

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since we are god's children, we too can become gods.

Become AS gods; There is quite a lot of difference between that;

But yeah, the human spirit is a wonderful thing; The physical makes me want to headdesk.

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Try it on your computer, any computer.

An a cranial caliper will give you one measurement and one measurement alone;
I.e. the tool (computer or caliper) gives you a result in the direction that you expect.

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when I step into eternity...

Hint,
One one hand you have spirituality (not religion; religion is a vehicle for the spiritual)
On the other hand you have science and understanding. Rational thought based on provable, repeatable things;

NEITHER alone will allow your ascension;

But bring those hands together, clap, and well... Good morning sunshine!




^*shrug*
As I see it, of course.
Sand in the wind....
An to be extra clear, no offense is meant; View my words as a different viewpoint, I suggest.

We are finite and our brains sometimes cannot accept anything which has no beginning and no end.  God is infinite and has always been, and will always be.  No one made God, for He has always been. :)

tink :icon_chick:

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But who is the mother? Men can't have babies. Sort of a rooster and the egg question, innit?

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What makes you think Gods, and heck anything half way advanced, is even material, let alone divided between a male/female dichotomy?

What makes you take a joke seriously?

Male and female are what might be called a false duality. "God the Father" is an exceedingly arrogant conception, and I was riffing off that, and giving Churches like the Mormons, in the context of a reply to a former member, a sort of raised middle finger on it.

[If God is] God, that must be a sort of Formless Absolute, In My Book, pre-existing materiality. Now, that does not necessarily mean that "God" is not present in the afterbirth (Metaphorically, know-what-I-mean?) or the consequence or subsequence, IE: I do not see a dichotomy between spirit/origin and material.

QuoteKing James Version: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This May sound a little abstract, but maybe "The Word" created God.

Again, acording to my upbringing, "The Word" and Jehovah were Jesus Christ. God is his father.  They are separate and distinct. Jehovah created the world under God's direction. This is one of the reasons that Mormons aren't considered Christian.  They can't get their hands around Chrst being his own father.

Quote from: nancyj on May 09, 2007, 04:05:53 PM

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 09, 2007, 12:01:42 PM
In Mormon theology, god has a father, and so does he.

But who is the mother? Men can't have babies. Sort of a rooster and the egg question, innit?

God has a wife silly.  According to Mormon theology, he probably has more than one. And since they believe that we are all his literal children of spirit, I hope he's got more than just a couple. Those poor women!

Ever hear of Ockham's Razor?  The simplest explanation is probably the correct one? How can it be best applied here?  Did man create god in his own image?  Isn't that the easiest to comprehend? Is it not a simple explanation?  Does it work?

Cindi

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But who is the mother? Men can't have babies. Sort of a rooster and the egg question, innit?

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God has a wife silly.  According to Mormon theology, he probably has more than one. And since they believe that we are all his literal children of spirit, I hope he's got more than just a couple. Those poor women!

Well, as Joe Smith probably created the religion in the hopes that he'd get maximum followers, by promising lotsa tail for all the boys, sure, it's only reasonable that God would have major booty on line up there.
Isn't that special.

Nancy, thanks for the correction about set theory and all that -- trying to popularise something I learned a couple of decades back, and haven't had any need for since then, isn't necessarily the world's brightest idea.  ;)

Anyway, the point remains that if there is an omnipotent God, He is so much beyond us that our view of Him must be essentially our own creation. If, on the other hand, the omnipotent God does not exist, our view of Him is still our own creation. Either way, the answer to the question on the subject line is 'we did'.

  Nfr

fear and ignorance created god.  you're working under the false presumption that divine beings exist when history shows that such divine beings are created to explain things that man does not understand.  basically though, the question is as [invalid] as asking "who created odin?" or "who created zeus?"  all deities are fictional and so they don't truly exist except in the minds of believers.  the only [true answer] to "who created god?" would be "you did." as everyone has their own presuppositions of what a divine being would be.

"God created man in his image, and man, being a sociable animal, returned the  compliment." (Mark Twain)

Quote from: Wendy on May 09, 2007, 09:35:48 AM
The concept of infinity is one we can not understand.  We really do not understand the concept of time which can be viewed as the "fourth" dimension.  Some physicists claim there might be seven dimensions.  Who knows?

I think it's something more like 15 dimensions.

Quote from: Seshatneferw on May 10, 2007, 02:59:26 AM
Nancy, thanks ...

You are welcome, it is all stimulating to the mind (or what's left of it) and thank you.

You may be interested in this by extension:

In mathematics, the Riemann sphere is a way of extending the plane of complex numbers with one additional point at infinity, in a way that makes expressions such as 1 / 0 =  ∞ well-behaved and useful, at least in certain contexts. It is named after 19th century mathematician Bernhard Riemann. It is also called the complex projective line, denoted CP¹.

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I think it's something more like 15 dimensions.

This is one of those things that is in flux, 'cause, hey, nobody really knows Diddley.

The guy I've read who seems to me to have a pretty good grip on it, Michio Kaku - Hyperspace is quite readable (also see Lisa Randall, who looks good doing this stuff as well ;)) - demonstrates how consistency requires 10, 11 or 26 dimensions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_10_dimensions

{Background

The deepest problem in theoretical physics is harmonizing the theory of general relativity, which describes gravitation and applies to large-scale structures (stars, galaxies, super clusters), with quantum mechanics, which describes the other three fundamental forces acting on the atomic scale.}

Anyone curious can Wiki-search what's in italics here and expand their minds some.

(and no, I don't consider this off-topic in the slightest)

hi nancyj, just so you know there are many other forums on this site, not just this one.  i'd love to hear your pov in other areas.

You request sensible answers for the question, "so who created God?"
Here the problem is that you can get sensible answers only for sensible questions. Regretfully your question makes no sense. When you ask, "Who created God?", you're asking who created or caused the absolute or highest form of existence.
Just in case you don't know, according to the principle of causality a cause cannot produce an effect greater than itself. So, if God was created, then God is simply the effect of a cause, which cause cannot be lesser than God. But if there is a cause which has the potential to yield God as its effect, then the cause of God is actually God, and not the effect.

Jennette, your postulation makes sense IF we can accept that god is the highest form of existence.  What IF we can't agree on that one? ;)

Nancy and others, Dimensions?  Lot's of guesses. Lot's of room to explore.  Many things to learn. I'm not sure we'll find god there.  We might find a nifty way to travel to other places though.

Lis, thanks for the Mark Twain quote.  He was a brilliant man.  I stand in awe of his perception of life.

There are very few in these forums that can agree on who or what god really is.  Even among self proclaimed Christians, there are deep divisions.  I think that we created our own gods.  Look back in history.  Every civilization or population had their favorite gods. Are they any less valid now that we know where rain comes from or what makes the wind?  I'm sorry to say it but... yes. They are.  It doesn't matter much cause we tend to ignore them these days.

Who knows, a thousand years down the road, the god in vogue may likely be the alien gray from Roswell.  Then we can say with assuredness... Yes we did create THAT god!

Cindi

Quote from: Jeannette on May 10, 2007, 03:33:49 PM
Regretfully your question makes no sense. When you ask, "Who created God?", you're asking who created or caused the absolute or highest form of existence.

who said that god was the highest form of existence? i can't force myself into irrational beliefs. i am a logical being.  also, this seems to be some sort of modified pascal's wager.  i offer the atheist's wager, in return:

a god may exist who will reward disbelief or punish belief. in the absence of clear knowledge of what if anything will benefit us hereafter it is better to concentrate on improving conditions here.

you should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in god. if there is no god, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. if there is a benevolent god, he may judge you on your merits coupled with your commitments, and not just on whether or not you believed in him.

Katia, building on your idea... and perhaps moving sideways a bit.... I believe that being gentle, loving, and kind is the way to live before any consideration for god is given. Good deeds done for recognition from god are not good deeds. Benevolent acts benefit us directly before any divine intervention.  An honest life filled with compassion and love is really the only way to find true happiness.  Many achieve this through their religion.  Wouldn't it be swell to find a happy life without the detour? Religion can then be added if you like for the spiritual side.

- Cindi

First of all, I dont believe in the christian god, but according to the theology I have read, god is the uncaused cause. To assume god was created would imply something before; therefore one would logically wind up in a never-ending cycle of what made what?
Christians get around this by saying that the only thing that was always is god. Because god is eternal, he required no maker. This, though is all conjecture as there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of any eternal being. It is something that you believe or not. Seems thats the eternal question.

God evolved from.....apes. Enough said.

So God is human?  ;D

-- Brede

Quote from: Katia on May 12, 2007, 06:36:22 PM

Quote from: Jeannette on May 10, 2007, 03:33:49 PM
Regretfully your question makes no sense. When you ask, "Who created God?", you're asking who created or caused the absolute or highest form of existence.

who said that god was the highest form of existence? i can't force myself into irrational beliefs. i am a logical being. 

If you have a problem grasping this idea, try grasping the other one that you might find more appealing, of a self-appearing, self-evolving universe. Why is He the highest form of existence? 

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The One, who created the attributes of creativity and the process of creation before beginning is rightfully, deserves to be called as God of all creatures, The One, who ordained the steps and stages of the Process of Creation, including the organic order & composition of the creatures and___ made the energy as an energy and formed the matter with energy and___ demonstrated the Will in such a way that the Will has become a universe of rules and regulations___ doubtlessly___ has every right to be called and accepted as the Real and the Absolute Living GOD.

To know that who is the creator of God___ a simple way it this___ that we should try to know at first, that who is the creator of creativity?

Whosoever has created and ordained creativity, is the Real Creator. And now, when God, has already told that there is no creator except God and God alone, is the Creator of everything and Ordainer of every order. Then, we have no alternative but to accept and believe God as the Absolute Creator in terms of the preachings of Prophets.

Who is the creator of God? Perfect answer to this question, is given in the following compound sentence, in the form of another question___ a magnificent question:

If God is the Creator of creativity and the process of creation, the both, then how can be there any possibility of God's creator?

And____ the same sentence is the most convincing, and the most rational argument, of the God-hood of God. The sentence penetrates in our minds and hearts, and we become positively convinced, that God is really existing as the One Alone God, and the One Alone Creator.

The real belief in the One Alone Lord is like that:-
•God must be believed as the One Alone Lord. By and by, firm refusal of the people-made unreal gods, is essential.
•No person or thing should be treated as a "likeness" or a "similitude" of God, the One Alone Lord.
•We should submit ourselves unconditionally to every Commandment of God, and the life should be managed, exactly, in accordance with God's Will and God's Commandments to avail God's blessings.
•The Day of Judgement should be believed, which is ordained by God for the judgement of human deeds and which is, certainly, not too far to approach.
•To ensure the acceptance of God, we must adopt those ways, which have been prescribed by God and God's Prophets. And___ this temporary life should be lead as a temporary life.

If there had been a Creator of God.....

1.If there had been a creator-god of God___ then___ creator-god would have been more powerful than God or the created-god. And___ that God would have not tolerated the supremacy of the created-god that the whole mankind and the other creatures___ should cherish the hymns and praises of the created-god.

But, as the chain of hymns and praises of God, is going on without interruption, it means that God is not a created-god. Instead, God is the One Alone God and the All-Alone Creator of everything.

2.If there had been a creator of God, then, that God would have destroyed this very universe, on account of the increasing differences, with the God of this universe. And___ as a consequence of the battle between the both___ the earth and the heavens would have been passed away completely. Or___ at least, some cold war and preparations for the decisive war___ would have been in progress or at some stage.

Consequently the music like smoothness and peace-order of this universe would have been disturbed and the circle of life & death would have become extraordinary, complicated and incompatible.

But as the cosmic system is going on smoothly, without any external assault___ so ___ it is quiet clear, that the Ruler of this universe is All-Alone.

3.There are so many tokens and signs in human world, which do lead to the fact that there is no bigger-god or a creator-god of God.

To run the system of every walk of life smoothly, there is always one responsible leader, who maintains the system intact. But whenever two or three leaders are made, the system is altogether disturbed. So the natural order, of the various circles of life, tells that God of the worlds in One Alone God.

4.If there had been a creator of God, then, the Prophets of God or the created-god, would have given some news of the bigger-god or the creator-god as well. And___ there was every possibility that they would have quitted the preaching of the created-god on account of unbearable pressure of the bigger-god or the creator-god. Or___ they would have slipped to the bigger-god or the creator-god so as to get rid of every pressure.

Or___ some Prophets of the bigger-god, or the creator-god, would have also come to tell that the God of universe is an inferior god or God is an offspring of the bigger-god or the superior-god. But as the Prophets have never demonstrated any of the afore mentioned gestures, hence, there is no god but God, the Absolute, Who is the All-Alone Ruler of the universe and its beyond.

5.God calls us to praise, to honour and to serve God alone. God does not allow praising, honouring and serving some one else. God gives the news of hell to those, who praise, honour and serve someone else, instead of God.

In the same way, the bigger-god or the creator-god must have called for his praise, his honour and his service alone. Or___ at least, the bigger god would have announced some proportionate method, announcing some latitude that the mankind and the other creatures are allowed to praise, honour and serve their God, but, by and by, they should not forget the bigger-god or the creator-god. Nor, they should consider the bigger-god or the creator-god, as an inferior god, otherwise, they will be doomed to a bigger curse and a bigger torment. But as the situation has never been like that___ hence___ there is no god but the One Alone God.

6. If there had been a bigger-god or creator-god___ then___ God would have not declared that God Alone is the Lord of Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and all the Prophets. Instead, God would have declared that God is not All-Alone, instead, God is the servant of the bigger-god or the creator-god. But the situation has never been like that, hence, there is no god but God, the One Alone Lord.

7.Everyone is one___ on account of his oneness___ and oneness of each one___ is a reality of an alive being. If the concept of our oneness___ had been more than that of the one concept___ then there would have been the possibility of more gods. But as the situation is not like that since inception___ so there is no god but God___ the One Alone Lord.

8.If there had been a creator-god or the bigger-god, then, God or the created-god, would have not declared that:

"I___ and I alone___ am God
No other god is real"
(Duet 32:39)

"There is no god but Allah (the One Alone God)"
(Al-Quran 37:35)
And___ after such a statement, the creator-god or the bigger-god must have killed the created-god because created god had humiliated the bigger-god or creator-god by denouncing the creator god as an unreal god. Where-after no one would have been left on the earth to say that:

"There is no god but God (The One Alone Lord)."

There is no god but God___ the One Alone Lord. Who is the All-Alone Creator of the universe and everything therein. God is Supernatural and Superphysical and Beyond of human intellect. God is not a creature, nor a thing, nor a person nor a sign and nothing is alike God. Nor anything can ever become alike God as God is the Absolute Holy.

Ruins of the declined civilizations and Pharaoh's Empire___ do tell us that denial and disobedience of the One Alone God___ is nothing else but an open invitation to the curse and destruction. Whereas the belief in One Alone God is the positive correction of one's affairs of the world and the Hereafter. Victory of Moses over Pharaoh is enough as a proof of the existence of One Alone God and God's unshared power.

I simply love philosophical questions. It brings out the best in everyone. It's nice to see such a diverse dialog on this incredibly puzzling dilemma that has faced man kind since we became sentient and perhaps even before that time.

First, it makes the presumption that there is a "god", despite the absolute lack of any evidence. For some reason, all gods are shy. They don't want us to be able to prove to each other they exist. Which seems kinda of odd, since they all insist we believe.

In the end, it's always another person, speaking our language, that tells us what god wants from us. Better yet, ask this. What does the general public think of those who claim god is talking to them? Then ask yourself, why that is?

Quantum Mechanics tells us we can not know the future because particles decay in a way that is not only unpredictable, but truly random. Not only that, but that observing particles changes what they do. And lastly, the one Einstein hated, there is no objective reality. Of course, Bell proved Einstein wrong and the fact that there is no objective reality has been tested and retested and different methods used, but in the end, it always turns out there is no objective reality. In other words, events in our reality can be controlled by events not found to be in our reality. It's really strange stuff, but if you have ever seen an atomic bomb go off, it's pretty hard to say these scientists are wrong.

So bottom line, if our reality is affected by what we observe, which appears to be the case, our reality has no predictable future, and our reality can be affected by things so far away that they could not be in our local reality, then this whole question about god is just another one of those things we can't know. It may just be beyond what is capable for our species to know.

Maybe we are just going to have to accept that we don't know how we got here, why we are here, or where here, happens to be? Why is that so hard to accept? Why is it that everyone wants to live forever?. I mean forever? Until time itself stops? Ion after ion? Doing what? Thanking god for creating me, so I could spend eternity worshiping him/her?

I have eyes and ears and smell and touch and taste and a brain. All so I can perceive all these particles around me. They may or may not be anything like my perception of them. Everything is just combinations of different particles and how I perceive them. And it turns out that just me seeing them changes what they are and how I perceive them. My own reality.

God is our own creation. He is there for those who choose to see him. He is just as much a part of reality for those who perceive him, as the air we breathe is to the rest of us. However if you look for him, you won't find him. You have to choose to see him.

Who created god? The need to understand created god.

Love always,
Elizabeth

From We the Living:
"Do you believe in God, Andrei? No. Neither do I. But that's a favorite question of mine. An upside-down question, you know. What do you mean? Well, if I asked people whether they believed in life, they'd never understand what I meant. It's a bad question. It can mean so much that it really means nothing. So I ask them if they believe in God. And if they say they do -- then, I know they don't believe in life. Why? Because, you see, God -- whatever anyone chooses to call God -- is one's highest conception of the highest possible. And whoever places his highest conception above his own possibility thinks very little of himself and his life. It's a rare gift, you know, to feel reverence for your own life and to want the best, the greatest, the highest possible, here, now, for your very own."

-- Brede

Quote from: Jeannette on May 10, 2007, 03:33:49 PM
God, the Absolute, Who is the All-Alone Ruler of the universe and its beyond.

Why does a Universe require such a Ruler? And why, then, is the Universe so unruly?

TMW

QuoteWhy does a universe require an absolute ruler? And why is is so damned unruly?

TMW... might it because we have this innate need to be subjigated?  ;)

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 14, 2007, 04:39:45 PM

QuoteWhy does a universe require an absolute ruler? And why is is so damned unruly?

TMW... might it because we have this innate need to be subjigated?  ;)

Cindi

Yeah, maybe.

"and then He asked me if I was into S&M. I'm So Sher! I mean, can you picture me in like, a leather teddy? NO WAY!..."

note: When the page here was first appearing, I saw innate intially as inmate. Universe as Insane Asylum, the inmates are running the place, or not?

I would bring in a bit of Kurt Vonnegut on this one.

"I was a victim of a series of accidents, as are we all."

That there is no God, and the human race are just the result of a mind blowing number of possibilities and the fact that we are asking these questions says no more about the universe than this is what has happened.

What is really interesting is the whole human social and emotional (and I suppose spiritual) elements of the world that the human race has layered upon the mechanical physical world.

By being born into a human mind that is both affected by the mechanical and random, as well as the chosen and social - it has a bizzare ability to abstract and create ephemeral ideas that have no basis in the ontology of the world 'as it is' but become something solid by becoming part of the culture. One of these biggest ideas seem to be God, so although God is not ontologically real the image of God is so pervasive in human culture, and so 'real' as part of the human construct, that it actually has motivational force.

Which leads me to think that God is a human construct, but one of such strength to be as good as real.

Quote from: Katia on May 10, 2007, 09:58:57 AM
you're working under the false presumption that divine beings exist when history shows that ...

You're working under the "false assumption" that there is a such thing as history.
:D

to wit:

THE CHRISTIAN or MONOTHEISTIC WORLDVIEW (1) versus:
THE INDO-EUROPEAN PAGAN OR HEATHEN WORLDVIEW (2) (on the question of time, and by extension, history):

1) Time is linear, a timeline with past, present, and future occuring in a set and unchangeable order; the first events happened in the past; present events are happening now, and future events will lead up to the end of the world and the judgment and to the perpetual and unchanging order that will follow.
...
The perception people have that time is linear and each moment unique is based on the fact that our senses are showing us precisely what is there. The human recollection of these events is recorded, preserved, and called "History".

2) Time is not seen as "linear"; the cyclical universe is not linear, it is circular or spiraling. The fact that humans have a perception of time as being linear is explained by the fact that dominant religions, cultures, and sciences have taught that time was a linear progression for centuries, but many primal peoples untouched by those forces still have no concept of time in the "rational" or linear sense; primal peoples have a long history of rejecting the linear notion of "history".

"History" in the absolute sense does not exist; it is merely a story told by people who believe in linear time. Instead of "histories", Myths take the center role to Pagans or Heathens, because Myths describe timeless events, powers, and truths which are perpetually real, timeless events, powers, and truths that underlie every manifest "moment".

Actually, I think Buddha created a few fun servant gods, gods of christian, muslim, egypt, greek, indian, native american, and other gods, just because he was bored, mischieveous, and looking for a way to mess with other's minds. But Buddha evolved from the great ape of eternity. Or so most the ancient people believed.

You will never get a satisfactory answer to this question, as the answer is given in either religious or scientific context. Religion can provide you with tons of "evidence" and science can also provide you with tons of "evidence to the contary". On the basis that nothing comes from nothing and that something must come from something ,i.e, humans create machines-we are the machines masters, who then is the master of humans, if not an entity/creater like God?  Then again why did he create humans after Dinosaures? Science can prove the existence of Dinosaures but religion has no place for them.  Evolution can prove our emergence as a human race through time and show we are closely related to apes, but what is the purpose of apes? The closer we think we get to resolving the question of God, the further we get away from finding the truth-it becomes a lifetimes work, which no one will ever genuinelly be able to satisfy one way or other. The question of God only seems to be relevant if we like the idea of going to "heaven", which is an encouragement to behave "decently" on earth to earn our ticket to heaven. God can not be an Alien, as even Aliens have to come from somebody's existence. The answer to your question is God's maker-which ever form or shape that takes. Though who created God's maker and God's maker's maker and his/her maker will never be answered on this planet or this life. Your question is more valid than the truth or not about the Bible, because if you can prove God was created, then we know there's a more powerful entity than God and God is not unique like we humans think we are!

There is no answer to this question.

If, like most philosophers, you define "god" as an infinite being, then god is a being that extends through all space and time in all the dimensions, however many there are.  A thing that is created, however, does not exist before a certain point in time, and exists after that point.  If the preceeding is the case, that thing is not infinite in time.  Therefore "created" is not a concept that can be logically applied to the concept of "god."  But this bit of logical gymnastics has nothing to say about whether an actual being that matches the concept of "god" exists.

If, like anthropologists, you define "god" as any one of many powerful supernatural beings that have never been human, then there can be as many creators of gods as there are gods.

Some people think God is eternal, with no beginning, but i've never been able to comprehend that... so I like to think that he (or she) was born.

I would consider myself an agnostic, bordering on atheism. I have no reason to really believe either way in the existence of a higher being. I've never been baptized, so I wasn't brought up attending church. the more I read the bible, the more I think it's just a bunch of bigoted, outdated tripe and that people take it entirely too literally. and then there's the fact that there is so much scientific evidence pointing to the reality that evolution existed that makes me laugh at the idea of one "being" creating the earth and everything on it. I mean, come on. that's just not rational thinking. however, since I have no actual evidence that there is or ever was a "god", I remain agnostic. I can't believe something or disbelieve something just because a book told me to do so.  So my answer to this question is ; What does it matter? Can you prove whether there's a god or not? No, you can't.

Quote from: Yvonne on May 18, 2007, 07:07:04 PM
I would consider myself an agnostic, bordering on atheism. I have no reason to really believe either way in the existence of a higher being. I've never been baptized, so I wasn't brought up attending church. the more I read the Bible, the more I think it's just a bunch of bigoted, outdated tripe and that people take it entirely too literally. and then there's the fact that there is so much scientific evidence pointing to the reality that evolution existed that makes me laugh at the idea of one "being" creating the Earth and everything on it. I mean, come on. that's just not rational thinking. however, since I have no actual evidence that there is or ever was a "God", I remain agnostic. I can't believe something or disbelieve something just because a book told me to do so.  So my answer to this question is ; What does it matter? Can you prove whether there's a god or not? No, you can't.

Well, to be fair, Yvonne... we can't disprove the existence of God either.

And I agree with you on at least one major point: Some people take it entirely too literally. But in the end, the Bible was never intended to be a science book or even a history book. It is a collection of stories, letters, writs, poems, declarations, and religious laws from people that span a timeframe of 1400 years.

And when you said, "I can't belive something or disbelieve something just because a book told me to do so," I offer a resounding AMEN. To me, faith is far more personal than a rule book or a book of commands. But that's my thought.

Good post!

Quote from: Chandra21 on May 17, 2007, 03:35:52 PM
Some people think God is eternal, with no beginning, but i've never been able to comprehend that... so I like to think that he (or she) was born.

Yep, this is definitely an area of theology that's hard to grasp. I think this is why it's so fascinating.

My thoughts....
I think God existed before time existed. Before anything came into being, before the 'big bang' or creation of the universe, time itself did not exist. God created all things, I believe He created time too. God was, before the birth of chronological time. God is the eternal 'I Am'.

-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

Quote from: Emerald on May 18, 2007, 07:34:58 PMGod is the eternal 'I Am'.

Well now that is fascinating! May I ask why you phrase it like that dear Emerald?


From what I know you are quite correct that 'God' was before the 'big bang' massively long before. I do think time 'itself' has existed, but I am unsure of the context of any duration of such; The passage of time has always been in my recollection. That may, however, just be the best this human here can manage. This said, time... is not the same here as it is elsewhere, let me phrase it like that.

I think this topic can easily be expanded into discussing time and eternity... Surely, this is not limited to a thestic worldview.

Oh David... NO!  If we were to get into the laws of entropy, we would completely lose it!

God and entropy don't get along!  ;)

I had a woman who worked for me years ago. She had a doctorate in psychollogy and was working as a development engineer for me.  She also had a Jewish heritage and was very active in reestablishing her faith in her family.  She told me once that as a scientist she realized that God could not exist.  But spiritually, she felt compelled to bring her family back to the roots of her ancestors.

"I learned that in many cases the science we know and religion can't get along.  I've come to accept that and just not worry about it," she told me.  I had to think it over and I decided she had the most level headed approach to this of anyone that I had ever met.  Her family's history was important and she wanted to carry on their rich traditions for her children. 

It was then and there that I began to rethink my own faith which had been totally abandoned after being relieved of my membership in the Mormon Church.  Yes there are ways to live with both.  And someday we will likely learn how they walk hand in hand.

Cindi

Quote from: Kimberly on May 19, 2007, 02:33:13 AM

Quote from: Emerald on May 18, 2007, 07:34:58 PMGod is the eternal 'I Am'.

Well now that is fascinating! May I ask why you phrase it like that dear Emerald?

As recorded in the Old Testament (Exodus 3:14), Moses asked "What is your name?, the answer given was "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh". It is one of the most famous verses in the Torah. God is the uncreated Creator in the Hebrew conception, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending. The King James Bible interprets "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh" as "I Am that I Am". "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh" is variously translated into English as "I-shall-be that I-shall-be", " I am who I am", and "I am what I will be". In the USA, some religious groups believe the phrase, or at least the "I am" part of the phrase, is one of the names of God, or to a lesser degree, the sole name of God. I also occasionally hear Southern Christians use the phrase "The Great I Am" in reverence to God.

-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

Thank you Emerald, VERY much.
^*curtsey*

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 19, 2007, 05:03:34 AMYes there are ways to live with both.  And someday we will likely learn how they walk hand in hand.

Cindi

What a lovely statement. (no applaud button, but I still have to mention when I like words said.) :)

I'm christian and believe in God.  nobody made God.  he create everythin'  u see & dont see.

An that has to be the most fruitloopy part of this whole arrangement. It all depends on what you believe. ^*ponder* I bet there is deeper meaning in that...

Yes, it depends on what we believe. To be sure, our worldview and beliefs will dictate a lot of what we think and say... especially when it comes to the question of "who created God."

Quote from: Emerald on May 19, 2007, 05:47:03 AM
God is the eternal 'I Am'.  ...
I also occasionally hear Southern Christians use the phrase "The Great I Am" in reverence to God.

One also hears:

I'm The Hoochie Coochie Main
and everybody KNOWS I'm Here

from the self-same corner of the universe...

"Father, please forgive them because they don't know what they're talking about"

Quote from: Jeannette on May 19, 2007, 02:27:03 PM
"jFather, please forgive them because they don't know what they're talking about"

Would you mind clarifying what you mean here? Thanks.

Quote from: David W. Shelton on May 19, 2007, 02:28:27 PM

Quote from: Jeannette on May 19, 2007, 02:27:03 PM
"jFather, please forgive them because they don't know what they're talking about"

Would you mind clarifying what you mean here? Thanks.

You know, the last moments of our Lord.  His last words.  They know, they just pretend they don't.

"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." I think is more accurate; An still very VERY apt.

That said, as far as I know the atheists and agnostics an heck every religious sect and such among us are just fine. It isn't quite like what has been written on the subject... Some of it is mind, I think, but not in the context and entirety... never mind though, I have little nice to say about that travesty. Go with the thought that some is divine, some is human an follow your heart to find truth. Anyway, now as far as I know all the blasphemy (an asinine concept in and of itself) is not going to damn folks to some place unpleasant or anything like that. Children will be children after all, but still...

But yeah, deep down people have a far better understanding of what is than the concious selves will ever let on (^*yells* "Which is very relevant for this board!") An this said, in most probability really does not mean much right here, right now.


So, in the end ^*shrug* humans are all in the same lot really. Not a bad thing really, this is a pretty fancy species deep down. But currently, you really do have to look pretty deep for some but some others... SO IMPRESSIVE! ^*BEAM*

But er ^*ducks* sorry I am doing that dodging the topic thing my dear friend Val hates so I shall just shush now...


Blessed Be ya'll.

I believe that God is just highly advanced forms of science that we cannot yet comprehend. Ancient civilizations used to believe in a multitude of gods because they needed a reason why things happened. Onto the subject. God=Science and science is needed to explain the Big Bang, therefore God has always existed even in the blank nothingness of the pre-universe.