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So who created god

Started by Steph, May 09, 2007, 07:14:23 AM

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Steph

I imagine that those of the christian faith believe in creation as in "In the beginning..." etc.  But if that is the case the question I have is "Who or what created god"?

Was it us, or is there some other being, or larger creator who created god.  Is there a god of gods.  After all surely those who believe in a creator would have no problems in believing that there must have been a creator of creators.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Steph
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Kimberly

Self created as far as I know.

Not too many things in existence can claim that either; Pretty special ;)
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Dryad

Hmm.. Well, there's a real simple answer to this one: Sophia created God.
Then comes the question of who created Sophia, though...

In the beginning, Sophia created everything. Just like that. Then God created Paradise, and in Paradise he created some humans. After a while, one offspring of these humans found his way to Earth. (Through a load of trial, order and Nod.)

The question of where Sophia comes from, though, is an interesting one, because it has no answers. Only speculation. Sophia could come from the minds of Humans, thus creating a lasting loop. Sophia could have always been there. Truth is: There isn't an answer to this question we could actually say is possible other than: Sophia came from our minds. The other theories are something you cannot trace, aren't plausible, and do not grand any answers as to the why.

That's why it's called Faith.
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Wendy

Steph,

The concept of infinity is one we can not understand.  We really do not understand the concept of time which can be viewed as the "fourth" dimension.  Some physicists claim there might be seven dimensions.  Who knows?

I believe our spirit lives on.  At what point in the future does our spirit die?  I will tell you it never dies.

Then how are we linked to the past?  Well we are linked to "God".  God is simply the reverse of forward infinity.  God also has "reverse" infinity.  A circle is a simple analogy for us.  A circle has no begining and no end.

I have asked mathematicians if 2 times infinity is bigger than infinity.  The answer is infinity is never ending.  How can you have a number bigger than infinity?  God goes back to the beginning of time and forward to the end of time.

Some physcists say the end of time is when no atom interacts with another atom and everything is randomly disbursed in the universe.  Hmm how many times has the universe come into existence?  Have we had an expanding then collapsing universe time and time again (big bang theory)?

I believe we have had more than a bunch of coincidences.   I believe everything is linked together.

Do you believe the universe ends?  (I think not.)  Where did matter come from? (God created matter?)  Can matter be transformed into energy? (Yes it can.)

We live on a medium sized planet revolving around a medium sized star, in one of countless galaxies in who knows how many universes.   I was baptized a Catholic, then lost my belief in anything, and then realized we are a being beyond a physical form. 

You remember the quote from Buzz Lightyear, "To infinity and beyond."  We are from infinity to infinity and we are linked to God.

W
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cindianna_jones

In Mormon theology, god has a father, and so does he.  It goes on and on. According to the Mormons, since we are god's children, we too can become gods.

I don't buy into it, but that's what I grew up on.

Cindi
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Melissa-kitty

Everything arises from causes. Everything is subject to influences of other forces.
Your question depends upon what exactly you mean by "God". Some entity that is causeless? Present without being acted upon? Changeless but yet exerting effects and causing changes? So many logical twists and unsatisfactory conclusions and cultural biases.
Blessings, Tara
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nancyj

#6
Ancient Vedic thought on it might be summed thusly:

Know this: the Universe is not created.

(And is, after a convention, eternal, and was always around.)

But they also say that it is cyclical, will die, essentially, and come around (and around, ad infinitum) again... that there is an ultimate limit (4.32 billion years to be precise...) to that which is created, @ which point the universe is completely destroyed and reabsorbed into "God" or Vishnu.
ONE MORE TIME!

[The Big Bounce:

According to some quantum loop gravity theorists, the Big Bang was merely the beginning of a period of expansion that followed a period of contraction. In this oscillatory universe hypothesis (originally attributable to John Wheeler), the universe undergoes an infinite series of oscillations, each beginning with a big bang and ending with a big crunch. After the big bang, the universe expands for a while before the gravitational attraction of matter causes it to collapse back in and undergo a Big Bounce. Although the model was abandoned for a time, the theory has been revived in brane cosmology as the cyclic model.
]

A Buddhist will argue, sort of extending that thought, that anything caused is strictly temporary, that the only essential 'thing' is nothing (perhaps better stated as emptiness, Shunyata) 'itself'*. IE: that if it has causality, it is interdependent on the whole ball of wax, meaning tied to everything else with cause, and that a thing with no independent existence is empty of essence. (*: that an eternal self/soul cannot exist, except as uncreated, not-individualized, a sort of all-embracing wholeness.)

Physicists will have a real problem with the idea that a thing can be its own cause. However, it is not seen as what is called a vanishing probability. (note that this implies that nothing is impossible. EG: There have been experiments done at the quantum level that appear to show a thing having caused itself.)



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Seshatneferw

Quote from: Wendy on May 09, 2007, 09:35:48 AM
I have asked mathematicians if 2 times infinity is bigger than infinity.  The answer is infinity is never ending.  How can you have a number bigger than infinity?

Picking nits now, but easily. You just multiply infinity (or, to be more exact, aleph-null) by itself. For instance, yes, there are as many natural numbers as there are even numbers, but there are more real numbers than that.

Returning back to the topic, I'm not sure the question is meaningful. The point about God is that He is so far beyond us that we cannot really comprehend it; His origins are so fundamental to His existence that it seems futile to try to figure out that one.

On another level, of course, the question can be answered: our view of God is really our view. In that sense, God created man in His image, but man created God in his image.

Nfr
Whoopee! Man, that may have been a small one for Neil, but it's a long one for me.
-- Pete Conrad, Apollo XII
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Suzy

The question is indeed absurd, though I think we all ask it at times. 

I like what one theologian said as a definition of God:  That than which nothing greater can be conceived.

Put simply, if there is a creation and we are part of it, God cannot be.  Else God is not God.

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nancyj

#9
"I have asked mathematicians if 2 times infinity is bigger than infinity.  The answer is infinity is never ending.  How can you have a number bigger than infinity?"

NB: multiplying infinity is the same as dividing by zero, it is the definition of a mathematical absurdity. No Go: Won't Work. Try it on your computer, any computer.

"You just multiply infinity (or, to be more exact, aleph-null) by itself."

No. The aleph numbers differ from the infinity (∞) commonly found in algebra and calculus. Alephs measure the sizes of sets; infinity, on the other hand, is commonly defined as an extreme limit of the real number line, or an extremal point of the extended real number line. While some alephs are larger than others, ∞ is just ∞.

Aleph null concerns The cardinality of a set.
The cardinality of a set is a measure of the "number of elements of the set".

IE: The "cardinality" of a set is not defined as a specific object itself. A number is a specific object.

You need a number to multiply anything.
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Jonie

King James Version: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This May sound a little abstract, but maybe "The Word" created God.
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nancyj

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 09, 2007, 12:01:42 PM
In Mormon theology, god has a father, and so does he.


But who is the mother? Men can't have babies. Sort of a rooster and the egg question, innit?
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David W. Shelton

Wow, there sure are a lot of viewpoints on this one. I love these lines from Jurassic Park, as said by Dr. Ian Malcolm (Jeff Goldblum) and Dr. Ellie Sattler (Laura Dern):

Dr. Ian Malcolm:
God creates dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates man. Man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs...

Dr. Ellie Sattler: Dinosaurs eat man. Woman inherits the earth.

In the end, we realize that the concept of "God" is rather difficult to wrap our finite minds around. After all, how can the finite even begin to comprehend the infinite? I've always looked at "infinite" and "eternity" as any existence outside of time; and completely unbound by the limits of the temporal. I believe Scripture teaches this as well.

So who created God? If I fall back on my theology I'd say, "God is the uncreated God; infinite and without limit." If I try to grasp it honestly, I'm forced to say something to the effect of:

"Beats the stuffing out of me!"

In the end, it's yet another great mystery to which I hope to find the answer when I step into eternity...
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Kimberly

Quote
The question is indeed absurd
My opinion is that the question is not at all absurd.


Quote
I like what one theologian said as a definition of God:  That than which nothing greater can be conceived.
Human arrogance is truly a scary thing.


Quote
But who is the mother? Men can't have babies. Sort of a rooster and the egg question, innit?
What makes you think Gods, and heck anything half way advanced, is even material, let alone divided between a male/female dichotomy?


Quote
I believe we have had more than a bunch of coincidences.   I believe everything is linked together.
From what I know of it all, a true coincidence is one of the more rare things in existence. Tonns of stuff sure seems like it though!

;)


Quote
since we are god's children, we too can become gods.
Become AS gods; There is quite a lot of difference between that;

But yeah, the human spirit is a wonderful thing; The physical makes me want to headdesk.


Quote
Try it on your computer, any computer.
An a cranial caliper will give you one measurement and one measurement alone;
I.e. the tool (computer or caliper) gives you a result in the direction that you expect.


Quote
when I step into eternity...
Hint,
One one hand you have spirituality (not religion; religion is a vehicle for the spiritual)
On the other hand you have science and understanding. Rational thought based on provable, repeatable things;

NEITHER alone will allow your ascension;

But bring those hands together, clap, and well... Good morning sunshine!




*shrug*
As I see it, of course.
Sand in the wind....
An to be extra clear, no offense is meant; View my words as a different viewpoint, I suggest.
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tinkerbell

We are finite and our brains sometimes cannot accept anything which has no beginning and no end.  God is infinite and has always been, and will always be.  No one made God, for He has always been. :)

tink :icon_chick:
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nancyj

#16
Quote
But who is the mother? Men can't have babies. Sort of a rooster and the egg question, innit?
Quote
What makes you think Gods, and heck anything half way advanced, is even material, let alone divided between a male/female dichotomy?

What makes you take a joke seriously?

Male and female are what might be called a false duality. "God the Father" is an exceedingly arrogant conception, and I was riffing off that, and giving Churches like the Mormons, in the context of a reply to a former member, a sort of raised middle finger on it.

[If God is] God, that must be a sort of Formless Absolute, In My Book, pre-existing materiality. Now, that does not necessarily mean that "God" is not present in the afterbirth (Metaphorically, know-what-I-mean?) or the consequence or subsequence, IE: I do not see a dichotomy between spirit/origin and material.











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cindianna_jones

QuoteKing James Version: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This May sound a little abstract, but maybe "The Word" created God.

Again, acording to my upbringing, "The Word" and Jehovah were Jesus Christ. God is his father.  They are separate and distinct. Jehovah created the world under God's direction. This is one of the reasons that Mormons aren't considered Christian.  They can't get their hands around Chrst being his own father.


Quote from: nancyj on May 09, 2007, 04:05:53 PM
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 09, 2007, 12:01:42 PM
In Mormon theology, god has a father, and so does he.


But who is the mother? Men can't have babies. Sort of a rooster and the egg question, innit?

God has a wife silly.  According to Mormon theology, he probably has more than one. And since they believe that we are all his literal children of spirit, I hope he's got more than just a couple. Those poor women!

Ever hear of Ockham's Razor?  The simplest explanation is probably the correct one? How can it be best applied here?  Did man create god in his own image?  Isn't that the easiest to comprehend? Is it not a simple explanation?  Does it work?

Cindi
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nancyj

Quote
But who is the mother? Men can't have babies. Sort of a rooster and the egg question, innit?

Quote
God has a wife silly.  According to Mormon theology, he probably has more than one. And since they believe that we are all his literal children of spirit, I hope he's got more than just a couple. Those poor women!

Well, as Joe Smith probably created the religion in the hopes that he'd get maximum followers, by promising lotsa tail for all the boys, sure, it's only reasonable that God would have major booty on line up there.
Isn't that special.
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Seshatneferw

Nancy, thanks for the correction about set theory and all that -- trying to popularise something I learned a couple of decades back, and haven't had any need for since then, isn't necessarily the world's brightest idea.  ;)

Anyway, the point remains that if there is an omnipotent God, He is so much beyond us that our view of Him must be essentially our own creation. If, on the other hand, the omnipotent God does not exist, our view of Him is still our own creation. Either way, the answer to the question on the subject line is 'we did'.

  Nfr
Whoopee! Man, that may have been a small one for Neil, but it's a long one for me.
-- Pete Conrad, Apollo XII
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