Susan's Place Transgender Resources

All-Gender Bathrooms: Would You Be Comfortable Using One?

By Michelle Toglia. Posted on Feb 4th 2013.

http://www.yourtango.com/2013173056/gender-neutral-bathrooms-would-you-be-comfortable (http://www.yourtango.com/2013173056/gender-neutral-bathrooms-would-you-be-comfortable)

Go on in, it's for everybody.

More and more we've seen (and gotten used to) the male and female symbols disappearing from bathroom signs around the country. But many bathrooms that allow men, women and transgender people are single-occupant restrooms. What about gender-neutral multi-stall bathrooms? How would that make you feel?

On Friday, an all-gender bathroom sign at the Parsons School of Design made it on to Humans Of New York, a blog that gives glimpses into the lives of New Yorkers.  The sign, filled with different symbols, reads, "Anyone can use this restroom, regardless of your gender identity or expression."

Brandon, who runs HONY, said on the blog's Facebook page that he hesitated before using it and found it to be an awkward experience. It immediately launched a passionate debate.

I've been in many combined bathrooms in Europe and Asia.  This was back in the 80's but I'm sure they are still there.

Don't we all have those in our houses?

Exactly, Devlyn. I've been in the gender-neutral ones on my travels through Europe as well.  Not a big deal.... Airplanes and port-a-potties are gender neutral too.  Just the way Muricans have been brought up to expect separate facilities.

Not quite the same thing Devlyn.

It isn't?

Do you have a complete stranger of either sex walking up to the next stall at home?

No. I wasn't thinking of it that way.

I've witnessed first hand what men do to a restroom! I mean come on is it to hard to lift up a toilet seat to pee? I just want to tell them your aim is not as good as you think it is. I can't wait for the day I know longer have to use the men's room.

I used to say "Is it that hard to put the seat back up when you're done?" - But seriously I do see your point and agree with you Heather!

Hmm not sure. I've been embarrassed by women in public restrooms while still living as female. I might feel self-conscious. I always have in women's locker rooms. I hated it when they would call a female cop to come frisk me. I'd seriously rather it been a male cop. Even if he got a bit frisky, it would probably just break the tension. I've never been abused by men, so...
But yeah I found a woman feeling me up and doing a body cavity search quite degrading (in ways I most likely wouldn't have had it been a dude). Probably due to my fear of women.

So I would hope I'd feel comfortable in an all-gender bathroom, but if prior experiences are any indication, I'd probably feel humiliated.

EDIT: Thought I should clarify that I know women wouldn't 'violate' me in the restroom. It's more the feeling of vulnerability I'm talking about.

As long as there are private stalls I really don't care.  Whenever I went to Ozzfest it was inevitable that guys would come into the girl's room due to the men's room being full and having a long line.  I didn't particularly care that men would go in there.  You have to go, you have to go. 

Just give me stalls and I'll be happy.

Quote from: Orihime on February 05, 2013, 02:31:23 PM
I used to say "Is it that hard to put the seat back up when you're done?"

I always ask, "Because you can't do it by yourself?" Seriously, don't operate under the assumption that the bathroom is prepped for you, ladies, because you might fall in!  :laugh:

Anywho, I would like gender-neutral bathrooms since it would mean that I don't have to find the "correct" bathroom in an emergency.  :P

I have amazing bladder control and avoid public restrooms at all costs.  One of the few advantages of male plumbing is the ability to walk behind a building to discreetly take a piss.

Behind a building seems pretty public to me!

You know, in a dark alley, back by the dumpster.

Oh, so that's you back there, huh?

I have never done that.

Quote from: Pleasingly Plump Jamie D on February 07, 2013, 03:26:09 PM
You know, in a dark alley, back by the dumpster.

I do that all the time. Always have. I don't stand either. I just have no shame.

Using a urinal while chicks are around would be too awkward for me.
Unlike men, chicks don't just walk in and out. They stay in, chit chat, put make up and etc.
Wouldn't want a group of them just standing there talking while I take a piss.
Sorry.

But I do think more places should have a gender neutral bathroom, the ones that are for one person only.
So the people that are uncomfortable using the other bathrooms can still go without having to worry about anything.

I hate comments about "if I had a little daughter instead of two little boys. I would be scared for her safety."

I mean come on if you had a daughter that used that restroom then wouldn't you go in with her just like you do with your sons?

I have a little daughter and I at times have to either go into the girls room with her or take her into the boys room with me. There's no good answer for it and if anybody gives me trouble I just direct some full blast awkwardness in their direction and they usually back off.

I would be completely comfortable with using an all-gender bathroom. It would show that I am very accepting of the LBGT type of people at a personal level.

Heck yeah I would be comfortable using one!  I've always wanted to use a bathroom with urinals around.

Weeeeeeeeell As I have mentioned about urinals....

And I have been a janitor, and ladies, you can be the consummate pigs, so no picking on the men in that respect.

But here is the big question, can you take a pee in front of someone, yes actually in front of another?

In the military, men tend to just pull it out and pee on the ground in full view of each other. But guys are like that.

I can't claim to have knowledge of whether a platoon of women in the military can all casually drop their pants and squat to pee in front of each other.

I have been in the military, and guys tend to not care about anything. Shower together, swim together nude. Can't claim again to know if their is a female equal here.

But I know this much. I have no sex hang ups. I could have sex with my wife openly on the beach and not care a single iota about it. So I think I can pee in front of you. Thus, in a stall next to you is really of no real challenge to me. Now or after SRS.

But until it gets to become law, that a toilet is a non gender location, I am not likely to push the matter even if you can't find me a law saying a person couldn't make an issue of me using a ladies room if I am properly dressed as one.

Definitely! I've used ladies rooms...  I've used men's rooms... They're all bathrooms, and all the same things happen in them..

My only fear, really, is that the fact that we're now inviting both genders into the same rest room there will be the higher possibility of walking in on....... unsavory acts being committed. 

There may (if all rest rooms were converted to be this way) also be the stereotypical sex/girl-crazed adolescents who will linger in order to cause trouble spying on the women folk.  (and often probably inadvertently the men-folk)

I would LOVE to use one. Don't have to worry about the ladies with the smug idea that I'm in "their bathroom", and I don't have to weird guys out. I will still weird them out, but do it justifiably now.

A the beginning of my transition, a few years back, after being told not to use women's toilets by my (male) boss, I decided to go downstairs the building to the only one "wheelchair" toilet available. That one is a "gender neutral" one, and I was not offending anyone by using it.

Until my FFS by Dr Ousterhout, I used these public toilets, so that neither men nor women were offended by an ambiguous (therefore suspect) being using "their" toilet. I always made sure that no handicapped person in a wheelchair would have to wait while I was quickly doing my business inside. That was about that.

After my FFS, I could at last live full time, it was nearly three years ago, and nobody ever thought twice about me. I've been using the women's restroom ever since, without any issue whatsoever.

So, I guess the "gender neutral" toilets thing is probably for people still appearing ambiguous while transitioning. Anyway, it's not something new.

I do concur, though, that privacy is quite important, for everybody. I have witnessed first hand (I won't elaborate, but it is easy to guess) predatory behavior on behalf of both men and women. Rape, harassment, this class of behavior is not specific to a given gender.  But that's a different story altogether.

I used all-gender public bathrooms for two years when I was in Korea. Typical layout was 10 stalls down one wall, without doors, and 15 urinals down the other wall. No one looked at anyone (you tend to look down at the feet level to see if a stall or urinal is occupied) and once I got used to the idea that I wasn't in America where everyone stares and gets into other peoples' business, it was fine.

Not sure if I'd feel comfortable with it... and also the pee all over the seats would drive me mad lol

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 05, 2013, 02:52:33 PM
Thought I should clarify that I know women wouldn't 'violate' me in the restroom. It's more the feeling of vulnerability I'm talking about.

I would feel this way as well only vis-versa.  :-\ I do currently, to be honest since I still present as a male.

I used to go to a nightclub in vancouver that had...The Odyssey

all gender bathroom... wasnt a big deal...
was actually MORE comfortable since really...
you have all genders watching.... was safe...

It would only bother me if I was constipated, but otherwise no. Well, unless there were towels I could bite.

The person who runs the dormitory I live in changed the bathroom near me to gender neutral in response to my transition, among other things. I think it makes it less insisting that I'm a guy. One less reminder I guess. Interestingly both genders use it regularly and if anything it sparked progressive interest.

"I never understood the concept of it being a male's responsibility to ensure proper setup for the female."

I never got that, either.

Back in the day when I would go to bars, clubs and so forth the "Men's room" would often become unisex by default (lengthy lines at the "Women's room") I would often be asked by gals to escort them to the restroom and stand guard

I couldn't care less who was going potty next door to me as long as they don't piss on my shoes or such, but I can see where it could turn into a problem if predatory types are hanging about

I find it odd, that people seem to think, a 'female' found in a men's room is asking to be assaulted.

I find it odd, a 'male' found in a woman's room is stalking a target.

I think the idea it is even possible sounds alarming. What the heck kind of region are we talking about here? Maybe I am just too darned small townish pershaps.

I wouldn't go in a rest room if it looked like it was even possible to engage in that sort of nonsense to begin with. Heck, if it is possible to rape a female in one, or have a man able to misbehave in one, then the washroom is in a place where I likely could be robbed or murdered too.

As a father, if I was with a daughter, yes I would walk her into the women's washroom, and if I was given a single glare, I'd counter the glare, and tell her to pull her head out of her ass and let me let my daughter use the toilet in peace. And I am surprised no one has mentioned, you can go anywhere if your mother is with you. So a woman taking her son into the woman's washroom, well I think I'd expect her to say about the same to any women bitching about a boy in there too.

Not that I think there is anything wrong with a woman taking a son into the men's room.

Frankly, every last bit of the whole 'you might see the other sex's privates' part of any of this problem, really stems from all the brain dead social baggage connected to those sex organs.

We would only need one type of washroom, if people had NO baggage connected to sex organs.

Society conditions us to think many things.

I think a father is just as likely to be in the right to go himself into a woman's washroom so that his daughter does not need to see old men peeing, as a mother is in the right having a boy with her in the ladies room because like I say, as long as you are with your mother, it's all good.

The thing is, most guys, well in my 51 years of experience at least, are not flinging their johnson around while standing at a urinal. Urinals don't tend to offer much option to view from not right beside the person.

I don't believe women are inclined to sit on the toilet with the stall door open so that a person can see between their legs.

I think society tends to massively inflate fantasy when it comes to washrooms.
I think children only earn something is a problem when we make it a problem by going out of our way to make it one.

I really wish sex education went something like.
This is a penis, it does this during sex (indicate becomes erection) so that it can do this, (indicate ejaculation) inside this (indicate vagina) after doing this (indicate in out action inside vagina), the reason being this (indicate sperm) from these (indicate testicles) is needed by this (indicate egg) which causes this (indicate baby) which grows here (indicate womb). This activity is normal and generally happens between too people that greatly love each other, and never should be done under any other situation, as the whole process (indicate pregnant woman) will happen regardless of reason if sperm and egg meet.

We seriously need to ditch all the dogma out of sex and explain it for what it really is, just human reproduction. As vital as breathing, eating and sleeping. And hey, I happen to really like breathing in great smells, and eating great food, and I like to have a good rest when I can, and I don't mind when I do any of those actions.

Why should we make it such a bother to enjoy sex just because we enjoy it?

This is really a cultural thing that's more a big deal in the US than a lot of other places. I would be fine with it. In fact, I think it would be a good idea to have them in public schools so that kids adjust to it from an early age.

I'll add that I don't know of any attack against a trans person in a bathroom because of the viewing of genitals (of either the trans person or the non-trans person).  I would be interested in information if people have it.

I know of a lot of attacks against a trans person in a bathroom on the basis of them not-passing while fully clothed.

I'll also say that I would feel VERY uncomfortable if I was in the men's room and another guy started looking at my penis, *OR* if he started showing his penis to me.  He can have the same organ as me and identify the same way as me, but it would STILL be uncomfortable.  There's a myth that you have to be the opposite sex (but not gender, apparently) to harm someone.

I can't speak for women, but I suspect you all don't show each other your parts in the toilet either.  And it would probably be creepy if someone - even with the "right" parts - did so.

So it seems simple: we should be able to pee in privacy.  Period.  Not just privacy from people with different parts (or who pass otherwise as if they have different parts).

I was molested in a locker room (by someone with the same gender identity and type of genitals as I have).  This is why I won't use an open locker room, as I don't want to be naked and thus vulnerable with *anyone* without a locking door between me and them.  I couldn't care if they had a penis or vagina, if they stand or sit, or whatever else.  I want privacy and safety.

A couple of my friends were molested/raped in the men's room.

You stop molestation and rape not by banning one type of genital, but by providing security, privacy, and a positive way of reporting criminal actions without shaming the victim.

I don't know anyone who was raped or molested by someone of the opposite sex in the bathroom.  I'm sure someone has been, but it doesn't seem to be a common event (or, indeed, the biggest risk of bathroom use).

I also think the last place a sex offender would want to go to find a target would be a mixed-gender environment that has a high chance of getting caught.  So a busy all-gender bathroom is probably much safer than a quiet single-sex bathroom.  We need to base our rules and laws on true risks and dangers (kids getting molested and raped by others - which is not prevented or stopped by genital or gender signage on bathroom doors), not imagined ones (like "if this sign let everyone undress behind a truly private cubical door, tons of people will get raped, because the rapist will follow the signage and is only attracted to someone with different genitals and/or gender!").

Quote from: kkut on April 16, 2013, 11:06:46 AM
Here's the bottom line for me... it's inappropriate to allow adults in the restroom with minors of the opposite gender.

Even if there comes a day when I can enter my zip code into the public database of sex offenders and not find significant numbers around my residence of such people, I'm still not going to be ok with it. Let's not deny these people are out there, nor that a lot haven't been caught. As negative as your nightly news is, it only scratches the surface of all the rotten crud going on out there.

I expect society to put kids first. Once adults, do with other consenting adults as you please, enjoy.

Anyway, interesting none the less.

Maybe just a semantics issue, but, I disagree with the word 'inappropriate'.
I suspect your primary concern is vulnerability to sex offenders. I have no beef there.
Chances are we need to be nastier to the sex offenders, and not permit them to use any form of multiple person rest room facilities under any conditions. In that way, well at least it greatly reduces risk.

Hi friends  :)

Let's all do our best to stay on topic

Thank you

V M

what if we divide the toilet into two rooms separated by a door: you enter the toilet to a room of stalls for all, and at the further end past the door is another room that has urinals. that would be a much more efficient use of resources imo.

Actually, currently I would be comfortable. I have actually used several unisex restrooms here in the United States.. also grant you they were at gay clubs, but still never did it feel weird, awkward, or uncomfortable to me. However I believe that when I go FT, that perhaps I will be a little more sensitive on the issue and will want gender segregated restrooms.

Gender segregated bathrooms are weird.  Its just a bathroom. 

I would totally be fine using one.  Regardless, I use which ever one has the shortest line. In the case of no line, I default to the womens.   I just dont really care, men sometimes are a bit shocked that I walk in. Womens bathrooms?  Why would they care if Im in there.  What they dont know, doesnt hurt them. 

I will even own the fact, that sometimes, I just like to push sociopolitical ideas (particularly if I am drunk), and I will go into a mens restroom and pee standing up at a urinal in a skirt, just to make men uncomfterable.

I know plenty of butch lesbians who have mastered the art of peeing standing up and will often do this as well.

Quote from: ParadigmCrime on May 10, 2013, 04:19:24 PMI just like to push sociopolitical ideas

I love a good tree shaker. Welcome to Susan's, Para.

~ Lyric ~

Idk. Just seems... Awkward.

All gender bathroom? Um I think I would pass

Really tricky question. I think we should all be able to use the gender specific bathroom of the gender we identify with. But, outside of this, I don't really think I'd be as comfortable in a gender neutral bathroom. Wouldn't be the end of world or anything to fuss over. In my area at least, I don't want to be in the same store with most of the guys here let alone the same bathroom!

I'm just curious why this is always a question? I was always told that your supposed to use the bathrooms of the one you look most like. If you look like a woman then that's your restroom to use and vice versa ?

Well we have all-Gender Bathrooms at work and it could get a little uncomfortable. Basically I wouldnt mind in some situations, but its difficult when you come out of the cubical and need to "adjust" yourself in any way by the mirrors and have someone of the opposite gender watching you.

I am pretty sure women would feel uncomfortable seeing their "crush" enter the bathroom after they have just taken a dump lol or maybe these a creep at work they would rather not share the same space with.

Some guys might not feel comfortable or be shy walking into the all gender bathrooms when he sees a woman in there.

I guess as a trans man, it really depends on what stage you are in, mentally and psychically

Quote from: ParadigmCrime on May 10, 2013, 04:19:24 PM

I will even own the fact, that sometimes, I just like to push sociopolitical ideas (particularly if I am drunk), and I will go into a mens restroom and pee standing up at a urinal in a skirt, just to make men uncomfterable.

Hahah! That's hilarious, for some reason. Just imagining the uncomfortable expressions on their faces; horrified, confused. Totally not my style~ But that's okay!
::) As for the actual topic, all-gender bathrooms would be WEIRDER I think, but probably SAFER. At least in my mind, it would feel that way.

I personally find dealing with men in a restroom overall strange, it's just a weird experience all-in-all. Urinals aren't fun, because what if somebody gets right beside you despite there being 30 open urinals around you? That's just a rule even normal MEN should abide by! And if there's 30 open urinals around, and I go into a stall to pee instead, because I prefer sitting down, what is everyone thinking of me? Oh my, oh my! "Did they just walk in there, hogging a stall, just to pee?" You know, obviously everyone has that on their mind, they're thinking deeply about you while you do your business. I might just EXPLODE in the end! And such is the life of someone who is dreadfully paranoid whenever they walk into a restroom.

But I don't think such would be felt in an all-gender bathroom! Because everyone is coming and going, women and men all about, who cares what you do in a stall? Though urinals would still be awkward (at least for me) ...

EDIT: I realized my thoughts were POSSIBLY a little spazz-tastic, soooo~ I am just going to point out, it'd be weird that an all-gender bathroom has everyone all sorts coming together in one place, but it'd have a safer atmosphere feeling to me. And that I would avoid urinals, guy or girl! No lifting skirt for me!

I don't get the non-binary thing.  I like using the ladies toilet. I don't want a whole lot of smelly men in there. If we take away all gender barriers we'll have nothing left to hide behind. E.g. women wearing makeup. Should we all stop wearing makeup? How passable will many of us be then? No I'll keep the binary thank you very much.

If anything I would be thrilled to use a Multi-stall public, all gender bathroom! It would remind me every time I used it (I work in a busy mall, keep that in mind) that despite our differences, at the end of the day we're all human. :)

It's a bathroom, guys... We all do that same tinkle and plop! Just different positions! :D

Plop plop
Winky winky
Everyone's gotta
Drop a stinky
Sometime


All together now!!! Everyone sing along!!!...LOL

If society requires me to use restrooms where men are in the, thats the last straw, I nailing my door shut and never coming out again,

I can´t imagine why I´d be uncomfortable at all!

Remember, equality means equal for ALL, so a transgender person is not more important than a boring cis male.

The only downside to a rest room that is non gender, is the moment you leave the stall, you have to have your pants done up properly, you need to have your dress adjusted correctly and you can't walk in wearing outfit A, and get undressed in front of the sink and change into outfit B regardless of what outfit A and B are.

You can adjust your lipstick, you can fix your tie, you can take off a shoe and remove a stone, but the rest of the people in the room expect you to be properly dressed otherwise.

A proper genderless rest room has no urinals, regardless of whether you as a lady can do a decent aim from your gear or not. The guys might not want to see you do it, they might not want you looking while they give their own the allowable maximum shakes after going.

My only concern, is I have seen lots and lots of stalls in my time, and they are hardly what I would call entirely private. You can stand next to many and see over, you can often see plenty under. And once you have made the stall an entirely enclosed room, it's a separate room and the discussion becomes moot.

Ideally, a well designed rest room is that. A common outer room with a sink and a mirror if you desperately need it. And a row of actual separate rooms that are just that entirely separate rooms and fully enclosed with a full on door. At that point, they are not required to be all gender if only one person can use it at a time. If you have 10 rooms, all only open to a single person at a time, it is no different than having a men's room right next to a women's room in the building.

Make a toilet an entirely enclosed room with nothing but a toilet, problem solved. Then it becomes a case of telling people, don't do anything in front of the sink and mirror, you wouldn't do out in the rest of the building.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on July 11, 2013, 11:20:33 AM
Remember, equality means equal for ALL, so a transgender person is not more important than a boring cis male.

The only downside to a rest room that is non gender, is the moment you leave the stall, you have to have your pants done up properly, you need to have your dress adjusted correctly and you can't walk in wearing outfit A, and get undressed in front of the sink and change into outfit B regardless of what outfit A and B are.

You can adjust your lipstick, you can fix your tie, you can take off a shoe and remove a stone, but the rest of the people in the room expect you to be properly dressed otherwise.

A proper genderless rest room has no urinals, regardless of whether you as a lady can do a decent aim from your gear or not. The guys might not want to see you do it, they might not want you looking while they give their own the allowable maximum shakes after going.

My only concern, is I have seen lots and lots of stalls in my time, and they are hardly what I would call entirely private. You can stand next to many and see over, you can often see plenty under. And once you have made the stall an entirely enclosed room, it's a separate room and the discussion becomes moot.

Ideally, a well designed rest room is that. A common outer room with a sink and a mirror if you desperately need it. And a row of actual separate rooms that are just that entirely separate rooms and fully enclosed with a full on door. At that point, they are not required to be all gender if only one person can use it at a time. If you have 10 rooms, all only open to a single person at a time, it is no different than having a men's room right next to a women's room in the building.

Make a toilet an entirely enclosed room with nothing but a toilet, problem solved. Then it becomes a case of telling people, don't do anything in front of the sink and mirror, you wouldn't do out in the rest of the building.

I am sorry I don't care, I have been raped and assaulted, I don't want to be in a public place with a man, I am not going to sy every man is this way, but please if you know any cis gender women talk to them ask what they do to avoid rape they know this also. I carry a stun gun with me every time I leave my house, and as I said already, if they make all restrooms this way I simply will never leave my apartment.

While I can sympathize with you, you are letting a past event control you

Rape can happen to anyone. A man can always follow you into a female tasked rest room and attack you there. If they wish to attack a person a symbol on a door won't protect you. Additional women in the room is also no real barrier. They might help you they might run away too.

I'm disabled I walk with a cane. But I'm no easy target. My cane was made from a sledge hammer handle. I'll use it too.

All I can say is you will remain trapped by that event until you put it in your past. You have the stun gun, does it not help? What makes you feel safe anywhere else? Rape can happen anywhere.

I will always suffer being thought of as a sicko or some such thing till I succeed in removing all male tells from my appearance if rest rooms are male or female only. And so will the rest of us. I'd be happier in the ladies rest room, but currently all I have is knowledge that it's really just that I need to pee, and the men's room is faster and less aggravation, and I decide what gets to aggravate me. I have bigger hells to cope with normally, than who is watching me pee.

I hate multi stall bathrooms period but I wouldn't be any more uncomfortable using one as I am now.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on July 11, 2013, 02:02:14 PM
While I can sympathize with you, you are letting a past event control you

Rape can happen to anyone. A man can always follow you into a female tasked rest room and attack you there. If they wish to attack a person a symbol on a door won't protect you. Additional women in the room is also no real barrier. They might help you they might run away too.

I'm disabled I walk with a cane. But I'm no easy target. My cane was made from a sledge hammer handle. I'll use it too.

All I can say is you will remain trapped by that event until you put it in your past. You have the stun gun, does it not help? What makes you feel safe anywhere else? Rape can happen anywhere.

I will always suffer being thought of as a sicko or some such thing till I succeed in removing all male tells from my appearance if rest rooms are male or female only. And so will the rest of us. I'd be happier in the ladies rest room, but currently all I have is knowledge that it's really just that I need to pee, and the men's room is faster and less aggravation, and I decide what gets to aggravate me. I have bigger hells to cope with normally, than who is watching me pee.

The only time anyone watched me, was

1) when I had to take a random test because I was a driver for a commuter van

B) when I was involuntarily committed because I had attempted suicide

iii) when I was arrested for a DUI (and I was almost raped again in this situation as I had been on HRT for 6 years)

in a public restroom I get left alone to use stalls womyn do this, and I use womyn's rest room's but there are single person "family style" restrooms around here - if you want those you are welcome to use them. Anyone is. They are clearly marked for either gender and for disabled. I just avoid them and head specifically to female only. I personally feel safer in the company of womyn.

I would.

So long as I can close the stall.

Womyn, sorry, that is just being too silly for me :) It's just a word.

I have learned many hard lessons over the years. One of those lessons, is females are just as capable of ruining and or endangering your life as anyone else. Every person and every situation is a unique instance and not a good idea to use them as templated cases.

If I were to walk into a woman's rest room, and still be anatomically male as far as an indignant cis female was concerned, I might actually consider her more potentially dangerous than a man. She could freak out, call the cops, make a scene, generate massive embarrassment for me, subject me to public scorn and ridicule, have me end up in jail. And all because I was insistent on taking a pee in a specific room.

Yes eventually we need to make a stand. The thing is, what sort of victory do we want, and what battles do we actually expect to win?

I can't picture winning some battles as easily as others.

I'd rather a restroom that favours no one, makes no one special and serves everyone equally. I am not less of a woman just because the last person to take a pee in the stall I am in, was male. But being stubborn and defiant and demanding to pee in the same rest room as used by cis females, might be just that, nothing more than stubborn and defiant.

Look around you, not all females cis and not cis females, will be on your side, or will welcome you in the ladies rest room. Some will fight you tooth and nail, and some will do it for entirely idiotic reasons, and lame justifications or just plain cultural and religious dogmatic view points.

I could just as easily be ganged up on by a gang of hostile cis females in the ladies rest room, my clothes ruined my outfit trashed etc etc, and it would be just as traumatizing as if done at the hands of men. And don't think it wouldn't be.

No one has any idea that I am trans or that I have not had SRS when I walk into Target, or the Bus stop, or a Restaurant restroom. Now in most of these place I have either the choice of male or female.

I have been full time 6 years - I am using female - I would get the most bizarre looks if I went into a male restroom! even though I am maab and no surgery


and even in Target where they have the family ones I leave those to the people with children who need them to use for changing them or for people for wheelchair or other access type or people who need them for special privacy problems - I will use the main group female even when I have to wait in line. - it works best for me, I blend better.  :) it feels pleasant

"No one has any idea that I am trans or that I have not had SRS when I walk into Target, or the Bus stop, or a Restaurant restroom"

Then why are you complaining?

No one has any idea I am female, because I suffer from male pattern hair loss, I have male pattern waist weight, I have a male sounding voice and I don't have the benefit of several years of work in the pursuit of being considered female visually.

Walking into a ladies rest room is a problem for me. Because it will seem like some creepy guy just walked into the ladies rest room. I think that sums up the problem for a lot of transgender persons. We have not had the pleasure of being lucky enough to be sufficiently visually convincing.

For those of us, that look absolutely convincing, I am of course happy for them.
But if you don't actually suffer from it, stop claiming you have a problem to begin with.
Unless you plan to wear a sign, or indulge in overt actions that expose the truth, you should just use the correct rest room and not be always paranoid that other patrons possess magical abilities to detect you.

Okay friends  :police:

That's quite enough arguing over the potty of choice

Topic locked

Thank you

V M