Susan's Place Transgender Resources

There seems to be a huge correlation between being transgender and having a job as a computer programmer, computer engineer, or an IT job, among other computer geek professions. Myself including, I am a math / CS major.

Why is this?

thats interesting because i like computers too, maybe the computer industry is a little more friendly to women in general? What gaming company who makes mmorpg's would not want to have a hot gamer geeky girl on the staff?  :angel:

Funny, I have an interview for a IT job rotation within my company next week. "Programer Trainee" $700 a month raise if I get it. I have no idea why you find so many transwomen working IT. It seems a good fit for me.

I went to college for it in the early 80's, but I sort of lost interest in it over the years and did other stuff.

For me, I think it was just being cast out socially that made me turn to the computer. Then I found I was good at it, so I really liked it. Computer geeks are also expected to be a bit off in society and even amongst their peers, so it's appealing to me to be around people that aren't going to freak out if my facade drops a little. And we usually find ourselves stuck in dark rooms with no people around, so an on-the-job transition doesn't sound that scary either.

I was originally a nurse (RN) but a lot about that field I didn't enjoy so I left and went into IT.  I like computers so I gave it a shot but I was never a "Math" type person. Now after 12 years though I am sick to death of it. I don't want to do it anymore.  So I currently have no idea of what I want to really do.

I think it would be an interesting study to see what the statistics actually are, broken down for MTFs and FTMs to see if there's a statistical difference.  Do some polling to find out why these fields were chosen.

I have no real idea why I got into CS.  I think my Atari 2600 was involved, I know my TI-99/4A was.  Games were cool, but I really wanted to know how they were made.  Enter BASIC, and the start of a career.

As for math and me-- when I was getting ready for preschool I had to take this test I don't remember in 1982 or so.  The story goes that after the test, the administrator told my mom, "[my boy name] will have to carry around a calculator like women carry around a purse".  Given smart phones, iPads, my Master's Degree in CS, me being trans, I find that old comment all kinds of amusing today.  Though mathematics was not my strong suit for a long time.  I'm still not great, but at least I like it now.

Quote from: Emily Elizabeth on February 12, 2013, 10:30:01 PM
And we usually find ourselves stuck in dark rooms with no people around, so an on-the-job transition doesn't sound that scary either.

This hasn't been true in my experience though.  I get a lot of face time with my clients, and have for the eight, closing in on nine years I've been doing this professionally.  In fact, I'd go so far to verify my Software Engineering I professor when he said Software Engineering is a very social job.

Well, I don't know about that.... Maybe because they are socially awkward and can't talk face-to-face easily, so they use computers?

Anywho, I may be a nerd, but I am not a computer geek. I barely know how to use the internet. I work on bicycles and get dirty, I want to be a firefighter/paramedic, and I like performing manual labor favors. It's part of the reason why certain people were shocked that I'm trans. Apparently, I'm a real man's man.  :(

Quote from: Misato33 on February 12, 2013, 10:35:27 PM
This hasn't been true in my experience though.  I get a lot of face time with my clients, and have for the eight, closing in on nine years I've been doing this professionally.  In fact, I'd go so far to verify my Software Engineering I professor when he said Software Engineering is a very social job.

I guess it depends on the specialization. I write the stuff that people never see like encryption and compression algorithms, the servers themselves, DRM, etc. I've only spoken to a client once in about 20 years in the field, and that was because they were looking to replace an existing system and needed someone to do the research for them. Most of the time I just get a stack of requirements and a go button.

I worked on telephone systems for 7 years before I went full time. I got into it because I took an IT class in high school, thinking it'd be a good path for me, since I liked playing around onc omputers. I thought I liked playing on computers because I stayed holed up in my room away from people, playing on the computer all day every day. They were a great way for me to forget the feelings I have about myself. Now, I wouldn't do an IT job unless I absolutely HAD to. That profession gives me a headache.

As for math. I'm WONDERFUL in arithmetic, but when it comes to anything more than that I am flat out awful. I flunked out of math classes 4 times in high school. I want to go to school, but I straight up dread doing algebra or anything harder...

As far as cars (like kkut mentioned) ... don't even ask me to mess with those. I tried to replace my spark plugs once, and ended up taking the whole valve cover off because I didn't know what I was doing. One time I "changed" the oil in my car, and all I did was take off the oil filter thinking that was what I needed to do. Replaced it and put more oil in! That poor Eclipse... if it was alive I would be in jail for medical torture!!!

I kind of suspect it may be just that those with early access to computers may be more likely to have spent a lot of time on the net and discovered they were trans. More access to information. The percentage will probably go down as the computer raised kids get older.

hmmm... maybe it's escapism - I am not in IT but a field that heavily dependant on IT.

It's just that when you're busy with a computer you don't have to think about being trans - you just immerse yourself and let your work be an expression for you.

On a computer a person can be anyone. For a large part of my life that's what I did.

Then there's more access to information - but I wish I had this kind of access to information 10-15 years ago - and the fact that the job keeps my interaction with people to a minimum so it's less likely to affect my dysphoria.

I am not speaking for anyone - just myself.

I worked in IT for a long time and it is very very easy work for me, but now I do truly hate it and am trying farming now,
but I think it is how the brain works,
regular people have a hard time with computers,
but the TG people have not quite normal brains, and it helps them with lots of the technical things,
native people in many areas knew this about TG people and valued them for the way they can think.

I'm not :-\ ...I work in customer service

Quote from: MaidofOrleans on February 13, 2013, 12:03:03 AM
I'm not :-\ ...I work in customer service

most of my IT work was customer service, no one really cared if the computer ran properly as long as I made them happy and they could get there job done,

I work in IT but I originally started off life as a mechanical engineer. It was my degree is in. I was always "into computers" but I found out after I graduated and was working as an engineer that I really had a knack for programming.

Back in the dark days before my transition, being a developer was a good way for me to hide using work. Anyone who works as a software developer knows that it's hours alone sitting staring at a screen. No human interaction is necessary. Nowadays since I work in IT management I really enjoy the people aspect. Being able to show others how to solve common IT problems in programming such as common algorithms, workflow engines, state machines, object oriented design, basic software engineering stuff. Mentoring, developing people, leadership, working with executives, strategic planning, it's good stuff and I enjoy doing it. I found that with a lot of human interaction I have a lot of passion for what I do and if I can influence people then all the better.

I got my first computer, a Commodore 64 when I was about 7 yrs old. later on I had an Amiga 500. Eventually a PC. then I upgraded my PC on my own and I really became a geek after that. I've not owned an out-of-the-box PC since. I build all mine, I do tech support for my whole family and to top it off, I am a digital artist with Lightwave (Used in the VFX of the new Battlestar Galactica and Deep Space Nine onwards) and Photoshop which has often gotten me the question: "Why the hell are you working here?"

Believe it or not, my mom got me into building computers. We were broke but she really felt the internet was the way to go for education in 1994. Well she was right!!  When we got the internet, I started learning about transsexuality.

Well I am in Architecture...... Not in IT, but always has been a computer geek and when In collage I used to be the "Go to girl" when it comes to computers LoL. I do all my work stuff on computer and I don't think I had any future as an architect without the help of it. I am good in Architecture, but when it comes to drawings I really suck  :D.

Why I am so much in to computers, that was something I could not figure out and I don't think I will ever be.

But when it comes to maths, God I hated it.  I hated  everything in maths other than geometry.

It is simple, for me computers was soft but boyish and none care how I look, I can perfectly hide myself
So it was easiest path for me, I ever was respected geek and someone who knows everything

Now I know this is a generalization and how unpopular stereotypes are on here, but I'd always heard that many mtfs seem to have higher IQs than the rest of the population. From what I've observed, there appears to be some truth to it. Clearly, a lot of brainy people work in IT. Not sure if it works in the other direction. I wouldn't be what you'd call 'brainy' lol.

Quote from: spacecase0 on February 12, 2013, 11:52:01 PM
I worked in IT for a long time and it is very very easy work for me, but now I do truly hate it and am trying farming now,

Ha! I thought about switching to farming a few times. I still like programming, but at the job it's the same stuff over and over and over and over again... boring. But then when I get home, I don't feel like doing the fun parts of it anymore.

Quote from: Emily Elizabeth on February 12, 2013, 11:01:25 PM
I guess it depends on the specialization. I write the stuff that people never see like encryption and compression algorithms, the servers themselves, DRM, etc. I've only spoken to a client once in about 20 years in the field, and that was because they were looking to replace an existing system and needed someone to do the research for them. Most of the time I just get a stack of requirements and a go button.

I'd still be surprised if you were alone in the dark.  I'm thinking meetings, perhaps daily stand ups if you're doing something agile-ish, collaborating with colleagues, any kind of conventions.

My project right now is solo, but I get a lot of quality time with QA and my Project Manger still. 

Because it's fun!  I think of it like a puzzle.  I get as many of whatever pieces I want, and it's up to me to figure out the best way to turn that into the "picture on the box".  I'm sure there is a bit of escapism in there, too, though.  My projects, both personal, work and school related, are all things I'm proud of and that's given me something to do to feel better about myself especially when I was still trying to run away from being transgender.

Also, I enjoy manipulating computers into doing my bidding... * evil laugh *

I'm only one person but I'm terrible with computers haha.

My gf is a computer engineering major too :o I gotta read through this thread after work, that's pretty interesting that transwomen appear to be attracted to this field..

Quote from: Misato33 on February 13, 2013, 06:34:53 AM
I'd still be surprised if you were alone in the dark.  I'm thinking meetings, perhaps daily stand ups if you're doing something agile-ish, collaborating with colleagues, any kind of conventions.

I do have daily stand-ups and collaborations, but I work from home and most of them do too. We don't actually see each other face to face.

For me it was a combination of being a social outcast and finding that computers were an interesting puzzle to figure out.  The solitary work conditions were an added plus. I have personally seen a lot of strange personalities in this industry - people with horrible social skills, or conditions that could be described as "asperger-ish".  Most of these "weird" people are truly brilliant in some way. When it's just you working with computers "weird" doesn't matter - what you can accomplish is the only thing that matters. Computers don't judge you, and weirdness can be an asset.

And speaking of math - I am not a math whiz by any means (I can add, subtract, multiply, and divide LOL....), but I find that there is plenty of work in the industry for the non math gifted people too - people that are good with logic skills, people that are good with communicating with both the business people and the programmers (translating between them), or "big picture" people that can understand and solve huge business problems.

I've also noticed that a lot of the people I juggle with are also computer programmers.  Maybe computer programming sits between the parts of the brain that make people think "I want to play with balls" and "... as long as they're not the ones attached to my body"

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 12, 2013, 11:26:51 PM
I kind of suspect it may be just that those with early access to computers may be more likely to have spent a lot of time on the net and discovered they were trans. More access to information.

Yeah, I agree with this. I only learned about ->-bleeped-<- after sifting through a lot of the BS to the real stories and (people) behind the façade of mass media.

For what its worth, I'm more of an Economics gal myself, though do indulge in the black arts of Marketing from time to time.

x

I used to be really, really into computing. For some reason I've lost a lot of interest in it though, which is a shame. Not arw is more my thing.

I do like to code still, on occasion.

I'm not sure why a lot of transgirls are into computers though.

Pre Transition- I owned a chained of retail computer stores(at one time 8), Degree in programming and developed software for the law enforcement industry. I even helped write a DX game engine for VB(truevision3d- No visual Basic flames allowed i can do anything with VB and .net that you C People can do with C and i dont have an exploding headache at the end of the night). When i transitioned and went through divorce i lost all my stores and 95% of my customers i still have a few i service out of my home but no where near what i used to have or the $$ i was used too. I am now a school bus driver going back to school full time to get my RN. A new me and a new carrear.

I don't actually have a degree, but I have been a telecommunications engineer for about 12 years. I don't do it because I like it, I do it because it is easy and pays really good! As soon as I get my PhD, I'm going to be switching fields to psychology.

Quote from: spacecase0 on February 13, 2013, 12:36:21 AM
most of my IT work was customer service, no one really cared if the computer ran properly as long as I made them happy and they could get there job done,

Well I'm retail customer service lol

Quote from: girl you look fierce on February 13, 2013, 11:14:32 AM
My opinion about this is really unpopular so please don't read it if you are really sensitive, but mainly it's because men are more interested in those fields and most TS women are interested in mostly male dominated things.

I'll add that there are plenty of cis-girls interested in programming, too (I dated one once!).  But yes, it is generally a male-dominated field :(.

The cynic in me says "Computer job = immobile = fat = more estrogen = trans."

The sensible side says "I like creative endeavors." My subsection/dream job in CS is video game development, particularly world-building. I'm never more at home than when I'm making the system generate ten square miles of rolling hills and forests.

Quote from: Emily Elizabeth on February 13, 2013, 07:41:44 AM
I do have daily stand-ups and collaborations, but I work from home and most of them do too. We don't actually see each other face to face.

I stand corrected.  Exception to every rule.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on February 13, 2013, 11:14:32 AM

I'm not excluding myself really because the internet was my only social outlet when I was treated like crap by everyone for being too feminine, even my family.  Though I don't think using the internet a lot means a big interest in computers, but still...  I even tried to get into web design but it just got too hard to stay interested in all the little details and strict rules... I focus more on the big picture so I like more purely creative things like writing and drawing etc :)

But... it doesn't really matter if that's what you like, at the end of the day there's no point doing things if they don't make you happy.

I know exactly what you mean.  I always used computers and I like video games but after leaving the medical field I thought that would be a good career for me. Honestly though it's not. I realize this but I am kind of stuck, as I am older now as I can't really swing going back to school and with all the unemployed college grads is it even worth it?

Also funny you mention about the creative outlet, prior to switching over to nursing school I was a fine arts major in college.  I got so much crap from my family and friends about that it was worthless and I would starve, that I gave it up. I wish I hadn't.  You have to do something you love.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on February 13, 2013, 11:14:32 AM
My opinion about this is really unpopular so please don't read it if you are really sensitive, but mainly it's because men are more interested in those fields and most TS women are interested in mostly male dominated things.

Guess I fall in to the same category lol. Architecture is pretty much dominate by men. But some times it feels really good to be the woman among loads of men  :P. Specially when you are good as much as them.

By the time I stopped working in IT, I absolutely HATED it. The only thing I liked was making the wiring closets look nice and clean. And trust me, I worked some magic in that lol!

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on February 13, 2013, 12:43:05 PM
By the time I stopped working in IT, I absolutely HATED it. The only thing I liked was making the wiring closets look nice and clean. And trust me, I worked some magic in that lol!

Yeah but, were they up to BICSI standards?

Quote from: Brooke777 on February 13, 2013, 01:01:44 PM
Yeah but, were they up to BICSI standards?

I have no idea what that is. Probably not. But here's a before and after of one of my jobs that was a total MESS at first. We weren't allowed to put in new equipment and some of the cables didn't reach to where I wanted them to. Not even close to my best work, I lost all of that after I changed my cell phone.

Before:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs4.postimage.org%2Fo8z115di1%2FWiring_Before.jpg&hash=ec03375c40b0be713b9f01c03787727a70a67e4e) (http://postimage.org/image/o8z115di1/)

After:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs7.postimage.org%2Ftgzvwag2f%2FWiring_After.jpg&hash=1c12f67a09e60cadfa8dd80de21e8564906712b9) (http://postimage.org/image/tgzvwag2f/)

That was done on a business day, too. So I could only take one person off at a time. And yes, I liked doing that stuff :)

I kind of hid on computers and internet, and have done some IT work but my real passion is software development.

Habit I guess, but habit affects nature ^.^

Quote from: Sadie on February 13, 2013, 11:37:48 AM
I know exactly what you mean.  I always used computers and I like video games but after leaving the medical field I thought that would be a good career for me. Honestly though it's not. I realize this but I am kind of stuck, as I am older now as I can't really swing going back to school and with all the unemployed college grads is it even worth it?

If its any consolation I work in health care   and IT. The health care field is always coming up empty handed when looking for technologists with a health care background. PPACA wasn't 2000 blank pages, there are tons of laws and medical procedures that need people who understand them :)

Have you thought of moving to the northeast? There are 4 heath insurers within a couple of miles where I am right now (Hartford, CT). The company I work for runs a group of elder care facilities in Tennessee and they are constantly looking for nurses. The job market is blazing hot if you want to grab for it :)

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on February 13, 2013, 01:26:10 PM
I have no idea what that is. Probably not. But here's a before and after of one of my jobs that was a total MESS at first. We weren't allowed to put in new equipment and some of the cables didn't reach to where I wanted them to. Not even close to my best work, I lost all of that after I changed my cell phone.

Before:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs4.postimage.org%2Fo8z115di1%2FWiring_Before.jpg&hash=ec03375c40b0be713b9f01c03787727a70a67e4e) (http://postimage.org/image/o8z115di1/)

After:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs7.postimage.org%2Ftgzvwag2f%2FWiring_After.jpg&hash=1c12f67a09e60cadfa8dd80de21e8564906712b9) (http://postimage.org/image/tgzvwag2f/)

That was done on a business day, too. So I could only take one person off at a time. And yes, I liked doing that stuff :)

Well done.  ;D

I was actually kidding about the BICSI. Unless you have been doing telecom for a while, at a very in depth level you probably have never heard of it.

Man... I never knew that such statistics existed. And in case there needs to be further confirmation, I was actually a total math nerd in high school, president of the Mu Alpha Theta team, and was an engineering major in college. (Until I failed out due to my personal issues getting the better of me.) So, hell, I don't know why this happens. But I fit this also, even though I dropped out of the field after 2 years of college.

And I'm still a total nerd,spending lots of time watching anime and computing and playing games. (I really look forward to being a geek chick. :D)

Quote from: cheetaking243 on February 13, 2013, 01:33:03 PM
, and was an engineering major in college. (Until I failed out due to my personal issues getting the better of me.) So, hell, I don't know why this happens. But I fit this also, even though I dropped out of the field after 2 years of college.

I don't want this to sound preachy but one thing I want to see in this world are more successful transwomen. I don't want to be the only one. It's entirely possible to do this all, be successful and live a comfortable life. I have 6 figure jobs at my company that I have to give to foreigners because not a single American worker has the education or qualifications. An American engineering degree is like owning your own bars of gold. When I went to college there were 475 in the freshman class and 25 of us graduated. Starting salaries in engineering are hovering near $75-80k. That's a 21-22 year old fresh out of college! In 10 years your earning potential will be close to $200k. That's one hell of a leg up in the world.

If you only have 2 years left then suck it up and do it. You can thank me later :)

Quote from: Sadie on February 13, 2013, 11:37:48 AM
I know exactly what you mean.  I always used computers and I like video games but after leaving the medical field I thought that would be a good career for me. Honestly though it's not. I realize this but I am kind of stuck, as I am older now as I can't really swing going back to school and with all the unemployed college grads is it even worth it?

I'm actually in healthcare IT. We hire consultants that have clinical experience to help us model our software. It might be an option to try to get one of those consultant jobs, and show enough interest in computers that someone's willing to take you under their wing. Degrees really aren't as important in programming. All I have is a high school diploma and I still get paid the same as any other lead developer. I just have to fight a little harder for it.

Quote from: Zumbagirl on February 13, 2013, 01:54:42 PM
I don't want this to sound preachy but one thing I want to see in this world are more successful transwomen. I don't want to be the only one. It's entirely possible to do this all, be successful and live a comfortable life. I have 6 figure jobs at my company that I have to give to foreigners because not a single American worker has the education or qualifications. An American engineering degree is like owning your own bars of gold. When I went to college there were 475 in the freshman class and 25 of us graduated. Starting salaries in engineering are hovering near $75-80k. That's a 21-22 year old fresh out of college! In 10 years your earning potential will be close to $200k. That's one hell of a leg up in the world.

If you only have 2 years left then suck it up and do it. You can thank me later :)

No, no, I finished college! Don't worry about that. (It took me 7 years, but I finally did make it, back in the spring of 2011.) All I'm saying is that I failed out of the division-1 engineering college that I was in when I first started, (Mercer,) and ended up in a small liberal-arts college where I decided to pursue my dreams of writing instead, and after MUCH emotional hardship, I did graduate. (Chemistry 1 was my favorite class... I took it three times... :P)

And you know, I really feel comfortable where I'm at now. I'm working as a poker dealer at a local casino, making $50,000 per year with full benefits, and I do get to do math, so it's not just a totally braindead job. I probably should have gone much further with my brains than I did, but I really don't feel like it anymore. I'm only 27 years old, and only a year and a half out of college. I need time to BREATHE!!! Just get settled, and get away from that rigorous academic life, and above all, FINALLY explore being myself rather than worrying about moving up in the work world. I'll worry about that once this whole gender-transition thing is over with. Until then, I just need something safe, secure, and something that can pay the bills enough so that I can afford the doctors' visits, HRT, and save up for surgery. That's my goal right now, and right now it's being met, so I'm not worried about it.

Sounds like a good plan!! I just don't like seeing the American dream being ripped away from people's hands and given to foreigners. Only 5% of engineering grads are Americans. The job market is so starved for talent we hire h1 visas from India. It isn't cost it's no resources available. The new wave of immigrants coming to the US have great educations and are replacing older more senior workers. I just really like seeing people succeed. It's a personal mission for a lot of ignored young Americans that are losing out at their shot life.

I'd love to do engineering.... if it wasn't for the math  :icon_no:

Quote from: Zumbagirl on February 13, 2013, 01:29:04 PM
If its any consolation I work in health care   and IT. The health care field is always coming up empty handed when looking for technologists with a health care background. PPACA wasn't 2000 blank pages, there are tons of laws and medical procedures that need people who understand them :)

Have you thought of moving to the northeast? There are 4 heath insurers within a couple of miles where I am right now (Hartford, CT). The company I work for runs a group of elder care facilities in Tennessee and they are constantly looking for nurses. The job market is blazing hot if you want to grab for it :)

I have thought about moving a lot. I am pretty sure I would not live here if it were not for my children.  My parent's have often suggested I move and look for work in more liberal states. However, I have a very active relationship with my two daughters. I honestly don't think I could bear living hundreds of miles away from them and only being able to talk to them on the phone.  I also think they would be crushed as well if I left their lives like that.

I could not do nursing again even if I wanted to unless I went back for a refresher course and retake my license exam.  If you have not practiced in over 5 years you have to do this. Its been 13 years since I have been on a hospital floor. The refresher courses are crazy, its basically like going back to nursing school. I see the reason they do this, it's for safety but still it makes it very hard to jump back into the field once your out. That isn't even counting the whole host of reasons that got me to dislike nursing and made me leave in the first place.

It must sound like I am making excuses but honestly I have given all of these things a lot of thought.

+1 here. I have worked in IT in various roles since 2001. This thread and the one on childhood toys a few weeks ago is wierding me out. We all seem to share some personality traits seemingly unrelated to being trans.

Quote from: EmmaS on February 13, 2013, 07:12:12 AM
I'm only one person but I'm terrible with computers haha.

Don't worry, I'm horrible with them, too. To me, computers are like cars: every part other than the basic ones, to me, will always be referred to as a "thingy."  :laugh:
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Anyway, as a joke, all of the guys in my Advanced Calculus class got together on the first day and said, "Oh my gosh, are these the 'girls' we've been hearing of? They do have large cysts on their chests! Poor things! Wow, I never thought they existed, but it's true! Girls!"  :laugh:
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I can't go to college. I just can't. I like knowledge and learning, but I despise school.  :P
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Quote from: DianaP on February 13, 2013, 03:18:51 PM
Anyway, as a joke, all of the guys in my Advanced Calculus class got together on the first day and said, "Oh my gosh, are these the 'girls' we've been hearing of? They do have large cysts on their chests! Poor things! Wow, I never thought they existed, but it's true! Girls!"  :laugh:

You get used to that after a while.  In a computer science lecture of about 200 people there was maybe one girl in the room.

Interesting thread, I have to say I have noticed that too.
Myself i do work behind a box, but i am not IT.
I'm a Graphic Designer and have been for the last 10 years or so, am getting rather tired of it though, kinda working out what else I might like to do soon.

Jay-Bird

I've always thought it was because that computers and geeky hobbies in general were a form of escapism and a kind of solace for many trans people, which may be partly to do with it. I've noticed the same trend too, although I'm not into IT particularly, as I'm a tax advisor so I merely rely on IT!

I would propose to expand that to include chemists!!!  I have two computers on my desk at work - one for email, documents, excel spreadsheets.  The other is an engineering work station that is hooked into 27 other computers for parallel processing when I do molecular modeling.  I have known other chemists who are trans as well.  There are a number of women chemists. 

Engineers, Architects, Scientists and Comp Sci?

Quote from: girl you look fierce on February 13, 2013, 11:14:32 AM
My opinion about this is really unpopular so please don't read it if you are really sensitive, but mainly it's because men are more interested in those fields and most TS women are interested in mostly male dominated things.

It's not like it matters to me, but I don't think we all have to pretend it's not obvious... also doesn't matter to me if it's because of how they were raised or just their natural personality (though to be honest you need a specific type of personality to actually enjoy intensely logical things like computer programming, which seem sorta bland to people who are differently oriented).  But at some point there is a creative outlet there too.

Well it's true. My dad is really into engineering/IT/Software and always tried to get me into it. I hated it. I always wanted to be a teacher or artist. He always gave me crap, my mom was more supportive. I ended up going to school for something really masculine to try to man up (criminal justice). It was interesting but I had no desire to be a cop or something running around shooting and beating people up. It left me jobless with a degree useless to me after college. Now i'm working in retail customer service and strangely I like it. All the interacting and the women I work with are great. It doesn't pay a lot but I don't care.

I'll probably catch a lot of flack for what i'm about to say but i'm going to say it. Flame me or down vote me if you choose.

I notice a lot of trans women in male dominated fields with good pay because they transitioned after they had the schooling and experience provided by male privilege. These late transitioners are in a kind of sweet spot if they managed to keep their jobs. Many of the younger transitioners are caught with no work or schooling experience because they faced the adult world as out trans women and not men with a secret. Due to this, many of them are left homeless or having to sell their bodies to survive. The fact is that this board is not a realistic portrayal of the trans community. MOST trans women do not have access to these forums or take part in them because they are too busy struggling to make ends meet to chat online. Every day many of them are killed or imprisoned for who they are. I am lucky to have a supportive middle class family or even I perhaps would have ended up like them. So no there are not many trans women who are computer programmers/engineers/IT, most of them are homeless or prostitutes.

/end rant

Quote from: MaidofOrleans on February 13, 2013, 06:41:08 PM
I notice a lot of trans women in male dominated fields with good pay because they transitioned after they had the schooling and experience provided by male privilege. These late transitioners are in a kind of sweet spot if they managed to keep their jobs. Many of the younger transitioners are caught with no work or schooling experience because they faced the adult world as out trans women and not men with a secret. Due to this, many of them are left homeless or having to sell their bodies to survive. The fact is that this board is not a realistic portrayal of the trans community. MOST trans women do not have access to these forums or take part in them because they are too busy struggling to make ends meet to chat on-line. Every day many of them are killed or imprisoned for who they are. I am lucky to have a supportive middle class family or even I perhaps would have ended up like them. So no there are not many trans women who are computer programmers/engineers/IT, most of them are homeless or prostitutes.

No flack because I think your right.  I talked with my psychiatrist about the young transistioneers and their struggles.  She agreed with what you said as well.  If I loose my job tomorrow, I'll have another job before I leave the parking lot.  I don't worry to much about the monetary cost either.

The only point of slight disagreement is around spouses.  Try to imagine looking at the woman you truly love, the one who has been there through trials and good times and grand children and surgeries and and and.....and tell her your actually a woman.  Way harder for me than telling family, friends and work all put together.

Transitioning is hard.  For some, particularly the 18-25 crowd, it can be harder.

Quote from: JLT1 on February 13, 2013, 07:17:30 PM
No flack because I think your right.  I talked with my psychiatrist about the young transistioneers and their struggles.  She agreed with what you said as well.  If I loose my job tomorrow, I'll have another job before I leave the parking lot.  I don't worry to much about the monetary cost either.

The only point of slight disagreement is around spouses.  Try to imagine looking at the woman you truly love, the one who has been there through trials and good times and grand children and surgeries and and and.....and tell her your actually a woman.  Way harder for me than telling family, friends and work all put together.

Transitioning is hard.  For some, particularly the 18-25 crowd, it can be harder.

Unfortunately I can't imagine that. One of the reasons I've started transition so early is because I have no interest in women or my male body. It put a huge damper on the whole attempting a relationship with women especially when I don't feel anything. When I tried to date women to "fix myself" or at least look normal to my family who was beginning to think I was gay, I wanted to be treated like a woman and that put a serious damper on anything getting serious and nothing lasted past the third date if I was lucky to get that far.

First, I'd like to say much of my family, including two girls in it, have or are trying to get engineering degrees. I've also had a number of clients who were engineering / architecture firms. The rate of female employment there was probably 1:4. At least where I'm from...  it's not unusual to see women in engineering. IT, yes it is... (probably around 1:20 or 1:30) but engineering? Not really.

But in response to

Quote from: MaidofOrleans on February 13, 2013, 06:41:08 PM
I notice a lot of trans women in male dominated fields with good pay because they transitioned after they had the schooling and experience provided by male privilege. These late transitioners are in a kind of sweet spot if they managed to keep their jobs. Many of the younger transitioners are caught with no work or schooling experience because they faced the adult world as out trans women and not men with a secret. Due to this, many of them are left homeless or having to sell their bodies to survive. The fact is that this board is not a realistic portrayal of the trans community. MOST trans women do not have access to these forums or take part in them because they are too busy struggling to make ends meet to chat online. Every day many of them are killed or imprisoned for who they are. I am lucky to have a supportive middle class family or even I perhaps would have ended up like them. So no there are not many trans women who are computer programmers/engineers/IT, most of them are homeless or prostitutes.

I agree. It's hard enough to get a job as a woman. The market is competitive for us simply as women. But put the trans indentifier on there and the difficulty trying to find a job is much higher... especially without work experience. I'm so grateful I have so many years of customer service experience before transitioning because without it, who knows who would take a chance on me. I'm also pretty glad I lost any interest in working in IT and started going to school for hair.

Another "manly" job that hasn't been touched on is the military. I know lots of trans women in the military that are disabled or has gotten VA benefits. There's nothing wrong with this, they are just another commonality in our community.

I wonder how many of us are pretty much locked into our place of work because they know it'd be difficult to find another employer that is willing to employ us at a livable wage, or at least feel that we are locked into that company for life. I also wonder how much harder it is for those who do NOT pass compared to those that DO pass. Plus, I've met lots of trans women that just have very poor personalities for the work force. They may be nice people, but maybe they think the world is against them and go out with a chip on their shoulder. I've met a few like that.

Then again, depending on where you live, we're just freaks to many people. It's just a sucky reality.

Quote from: JLT1 on February 13, 2013, 07:17:30 PMThe only point of slight disagreement is around spouses.  Try to imagine looking at the woman you truly love, the one who has been there through trials and good times and grand children and surgeries and and and.....and tell her your actually a woman.  Way harder for me than telling family, friends and work all put together.

Transitioning is hard.  For some, particularly the 18-25 crowd, it can be harder.

I'm so glad I didn't fall into that trap. Lucky for me (I guess..) I like men and could never develop a relationship with a guy because I was (still am) so freaked out when a guy started touching my genitals. I'm sure telling a gay guy that would be almost as tough, but not nearly as tough as telling your children... wow.

Great, now I'm scared out of my mind. Thanks a lot.  :icon_nervious:

I will just say this in response to the last several responses.

I don't think we should be too quick to judge anyone's situation based on their age.  I have heard plenty of success stories from young transitioners and know older transitioners who have absolutely horrible transition experiences.

I don't think anybody here is judging anybody. I just see generalities and such.

Quote from: Sadie on February 13, 2013, 08:01:01 PM
I will just say this in response to the last several responses.

I don't think we should be too quick to judge anyone's situation based on their age.  I have heard plenty of success stories from young transitioners and know older transitioners who have absolutely horrible transition experiences.

No one is judging.

I'm trying to put it into perspective that there is an obvious division in the quality of life between those who have built a successful life and career as a man before transition and those younger trans women who must struggle from the get go because of their trans female status. I'm not just talking about the US, it's even worse in the developing world. Counter to the concept of this thread, our own little community gives a dishonest picture of the trans community at large. There really aren't that many trans women programmers/IT/engineers.

Quote from: MaidofOrleans on February 13, 2013, 09:12:47 PM
No one is judging.

I'm trying to put it into perspective that there is an obvious division in the quality of life between those who have built a successful life and career as a man before transition and those younger trans women who must struggle from the get go because of their trans female status. I'm not just talking about the US, it's even worse in the developing world. Counter to the concept of this thread, our own little community gives a dishonest picture of the trans community at large. There really aren't that many trans women programmers/IT/engineers.

I would agree with this in a general sense. Though if you check out many of the success stories on Lynn Conway's page, a good many of them were young transitioners.  Some of them may no longer be young but they were when they transitioned.  As far as being outside of the US, yes in some countries it's absolutely horrific but in other countries it's better. The US is not the most progressive country in the world when it comes to trans issues.  In developing countries just about everything is worse across all aspects of life if you are any kind of minority.

I am somewhat with ya about male privilege, but I would put it just a little differently I think..

Male privilege affects all women.  Being trans can make things even harder in a lot of cases.  But yeah, being a woman means fewer opportunities and lower wages for the same work,  in general.  The greater % of your life is spent as a woman, the greater you will be affected by this socioeconomic dynamic.

But don't forget that late transitioners have their own set of struggles, and if you gave any of them the choice I bet 99 out of a 100 will tell ya they wish they transitioned before male privilege ever kicked in.  Also not every older person gets to take advantage of male privilege.  Like if somebody spent a long career in my field for instance, doing freelance and/or working for small companies with no upward mobility, ehhh they may have had some advantages, but not a ton.  Finally, people that are hamstrung by depression and a lot of the things that come along with GID don't get the same opportunities in general that your average big personality man does.

Being uncomfortable in your body = being uncomfortable with interaction with your body.

Being uncomfortable with interaction with your body = wanting to be with others less.

Wanting to be with others less = being more drawn to solitary activities.

Being more drawn to solitary activities = being more drawn to computers.

Says the multimedia (Web graphic design and programming) student.

Quote from: Jen on February 13, 2013, 09:51:06 PM
I am somewhat with ya about male privilege, but I would put it just a little differently I think..

Male privilege affects all women.  Being trans can make things even harder in a lot of cases.  But yeah, being a woman means fewer opportunities and lower wages for the same work,  in general.  The greater % of your life is spent as a woman, the greater you will be affected by this socioeconomic dynamic.

But don't forget that late transitioners have their own set of struggles, and if you gave any of them the choice I bet 99 out of a 100 will tell ya they wish they transitioned before male privilege ever kicked in.  Also not every older person gets to take advantage of male privilege.  Like if somebody spent a long career in my field for instance, doing freelance and/or working for small companies with no upward mobility, ehhh they may have had some advantages, but not a ton.  Finally, people that are hamstrung by depression and a lot of the things that come along with GID don't get the same opportunities in general that your average big personality man does.

I wish I transitioned earlier. That's a no brainer. I want the rest of my life back.

Let me also add to that perspective. Yes, I've had about a decade of male privilege, but I wish I could erase it. I really don't like putting my past references down, because I always feel they're going to out me. Not only that, but it was manly work that I don't want associated with me. "Oh, you've climbed through attics before? Well, come to think of it... I'd like you to do that just this one time..." If I could have it all back, I'd probably go to hair school right out of high school, because I'd be out and open then and not worried about what other people think as far as "Uhh that's girly".

Yeah...  I think I might have actually done something with my life if I transitioned earlier.  It's never too late to start I suppose.

Quote from: Jen on February 13, 2013, 10:10:48 PM
Yeah...  I think I might have actually done something with my life if I transitioned earlier.  It's never too late to start I suppose.

Same here, I don't even think I had male privilege. Studied fine arts in college until I switched to nursing. Became a nurse, that certainly wasn't screaming male privilege.   :D

Then I went into IT, but the truth is I am under-educated for that field and have never had any upward mobility.  I would have loved to just start out female in college and see where it took me. My bet is I would be more successful, not being distracted by years of gender dysphoria lets you focus on what you really want out of life.

I'm hoping its not too late to start but some days it feels that way.

Quote from: DianaP on February 13, 2013, 07:49:14 PM
Great, now I'm scared out of my mind. Thanks a lot.  :icon_nervious:

Get a plan together starting with where you are at, where you are going and how you are going to get there.  Becoming a woman is a big part of that plan, but it isn't all of that plan. Include education, some type of career that pays money.  The works.  And be honest with yourself, what you like and don't like.  Then, as life happens, adapt your plan because it will change.  Over the next few years, your plan could become obsolete.  But what you will have learned in making the plan will never leave. 

I've read a number of your posts.  Your smart, mature, caring.  You'll do well. 

I got into programming and video games on a PC at about 13, once puberty started it helped me deal with my crippling depression and anxiety.

It was easy to get lost in a virtual world and forget you even existed.. nice escape.

I guess I just got good at it so I stuck with it through high school and university, I don't think I'm particularly gifted at it or that I absolutely love it but it pays well and is a fairly liberal industry.

If I was to take a guess as to why, I personally think MTFs gravitate to more task orientated environments where there is less inter-personal socialization as a part of the work due to their anxiety and/or depression.

.

Quote from: Ultimus on February 12, 2013, 10:06:40 PM
There seems to be a huge correlation between being transgender and having a job as a computer programmer, computer engineer, or an IT job, among other computer geek professions. Myself including, I am a math / CS major.

Why is this?

The fear of actual physical labor?

I knew from a younger age, I was just afraid of my family. Then I was afraid of my friends... but I was afraid of my friends for good reason. They were violent people.

Yep, fear paralyzed me my whole life, just like that.   So many things to be scared of.  Wish I coulda been stronger, ya know?   But I am just super happy with where, and who, I am now.  The past just got me here.

I just realized I haven't even answered the original question of the thread yet.  Well, I don't know why cause I didn't go into those fields so I have no experience with it.  There, now I still haven't answered it lol.

I've been reading this conversation about "male privilege" and about people who transitioned young being at a disadvantage due to being looked down upon by society.

Well, again, this is just one person's experience, but I personally believe that I would have been MUCH better off in terms of work situation if I had transitioned younger. Because my gender identity issues completely WRECKED my schooling. For some reason, I just always found myself completely unable to complete the simplest of tasks because it just never felt like my head was working right. I had not expected female hormones and the prospect of gender transition to change this in any way, but miraculously it did.

I was a VERY smart kid, the kind who consistently got A's on every single test without even studying or doing the homework, and actually placed in the top 10 in the state in both geometry and algebra in Mu Alpha Theta, but I was constantly failing my classes because I kept just having NO desire to do any of the work, and my personal life felt like total crap. I just couldn't get myself to do ANYTHING, because all I felt like doing was sitting around and feeling sorry for myself. But now, with estrogen finally running through my system, for the first time ever it really feels like my brain is finally working right, and I finally actually feel like doing things after 15 years of constant academic failure.

Why do I bring this up? Because if I had stood up and admitted my transsexual feelings earlier, I really believe that I could have avoided all of the academic pitfalls that I fell into in high school in college. I could easily have been an honors student, I could easily have stayed in the division-1 engineering college that I went to, and I could have had a hugely successful career. As it is, my gender identity issues dragged me down an unfathomable amount. I failed four classes in high school and graduated with a 2.8, I failed out of the division-1 engineering college after only 1 year, and I spent SEVEN YEARS of my life struggling through the curriculum at a small liberal-arts college one class at a time before I FINALLY graduated. With my test scores and mathematical ability, I could have easily gone to a teir-1 college. But I've missed out on that opportunity because I didn't decide to transition until a year and a half after graduating from little old podunk Muskingum University. I have missed out on SO MUCH opportunity by not transitioning younger.

So again, this is just one person's perspective, but my constant unfulfilled gender identity issues pretty much completely destroyed my academic life. I was a straight-A student until testosterone started flooding into my system at age 13, and I wasted pretty much ALL of my academic potential because I spent all of my high school and college years feeling like total crap. So that's another factor to consider in regards to this whole old-versus-young transition business.

I guess it could go either way depending on the person. I had similar strengths and problems in school. I have a high school diploma and everything else is self-taught. I've actually done well for myself, but the gender dysphoria actually helped me instead of hurting me. I needed to find something to focus on that I actually liked, and I did. I've probably spent enough time over the years studying computer programming on my own to have enough credit hours to cover several PhDs. It's what I focused on when I was trying to fight off the dysphoria and it's my current career field too. Now that I've accepted things, I find it harder to stay focused on work because all I can think about is taking that next step in a transition.

Let me make this clear because apparently people are not seeing the point of what I posted.

When I talk about the trans female community at large i'm talking about girls all over the world, girls with little or no opportunity even presented to them because of their status as trans women. That is both trans and women.

The question of this thread is why so many trans women are programmers/engineers/IT. I am pointing out that not many are, it just seems that many are based on our little community here of mostly white/middle class/developed world trans women.

You are talking about how you would have done better in school had you transitioned early. Many trans women do not even have the opportunity to go to school.

I'm just pushing the view of the bigger picture, just telling as I see it. It's not an opinion it's just facts, facts that are upsetting but real and must be a constant reminder to us that we are struggling not for our rights every day but the rights of others like us who suffer.

Quote from: MaidofOrleans on February 14, 2013, 09:37:23 AM
The question of this thread is why so many trans women are programmers/engineers/IT. I am pointing out that not many are, it just seems that many are based on our little community here of mostly white/middle class/developed world trans women.

I agree with that. I was just answering another question.

When computer geeks want information, they hit the internet and they all kind of land in a common pot, like this forum, which is not to say that non-computer geeks won't land here. You can't look at this forum and consider it a real-world example of how all trans people are. If I wasn't good with computers, I probably wouldn't even be on this site or any like it. I'd be looking for people in the real world to communicate with about this instead. Even then, I'd find groups of people with similar interests to my own just because they're the type of people I'm going to click with the best. Maybe we should try missionary style groups where we just travel the world with the sole intention of meeting other trans people in different living environments.

Quote from: MaidofOrleans on February 14, 2013, 09:37:23 AM

The question of this thread is why so many trans women are programmers/engineers/IT. I am pointing out that not many are, it just seems that many are based on our little community here of mostly white/middle class/developed world trans women.

You guys and gals are really so lucky to be born in the developed part of the world.  and speaking for someone who is from a developing country most trans people, specially trans girls are having such a hard time here. If you are born to a family respected by society who can break the social barrier then you will be safe given the fact that you family is supporting you. But still you have to wait atleast you finish your studies to convince them that you are not crazy. But once you transition people will not look down on you because of your family background. They will just see you as someone really special. 

Else it will be a entrapment for a life and even if you transition you will be marginalized. Only way out for this part of the world is, be patient, finish your studies, get a good job then transition and fight like hell against the social norms to get the equal opportunities. People will always find a reason to look down on you and marginalize you.  But till then You should be able to hide all you inner feelings. Thats the Ugly truth here in Sri Lanka

Quote from: MaidofOrleans on February 14, 2013, 09:37:23 AM
Let me make this clear because apparently people are not seeing the point of what I posted.

When I talk about the trans female community at large i'm talking about girls all over the world, girls with little or no opportunity even presented to them because of their status as trans women. That is both trans and women.

The question of this thread is why so many trans women are programmers/engineers/IT. I am pointing out that not many are, it just seems that many are based on our little community here of mostly white/middle class/developed world trans women.

You are talking about how you would have done better in school had you transitioned early. Many trans women do not even have the opportunity to go to school.

I'm just pushing the view of the bigger picture, just telling as I see it. It's not an opinion it's just facts, facts that are upsetting but real and must be a constant reminder to us that we are struggling not for our rights every day but the rights of others like us who suffer.

I'm sorry, I really meant no offense to the struggles of the community at large. It's just that the topic was veering off into questioning whether professional advancement was more common among late-transitioners who were already established professionally, or early-transitioners due to the whole glass ceiling thing. Again, I'm sorry, I didn't mean any offense to anyone, I was just throwing in my two cents to the early/late transition debate that was starting.

"Why are so many transwomen computer programmers/engineers/IT?"

Because they're... NERDS!  :icon_bumdance-nerd: :icon_geekdance: :icon_wave-nerd:

Quote from: V M on February 14, 2013, 12:49:01 AM

The fear of actual physical labor?

I retreat in terror at the mere thought of heavy lifting and I'm a dude so...  :laugh:

This is an interesting subject. I do wonder if there is any statistical information which would back up the idea that more transwomen have an interest/aptitude in systems than the general population. Flipping that over, it would be interesting to know if an interest in technology is in any way a predictor of future trans issues. (My hunch is that there is no such data, and if it existed, we'd be surprised to see that it wouldn't actually support the anecdotes.)

But my own story certainly fits that narrative. Shy as a child, I always sought out activities which I could do by myself, especially creative or exploratory activities. When I sat down at a computer terminal for the first time (MECC, for you old-timers), I was instantly in heaven. My shyness faded away because there were simply no social considerations to be managed. I was free from behaving in any sort of way or hiding the questions about gender that I carried around with me. Not having to deal with other people fit my needs perfectly, and a lifelong love was born. (I have similar loves in music and writing.)

In my case, it was sort of like finding computers was roughly equivalent to getting dressed. It was a world of safety in which I could shed the manufactured me and just be my whole self.

Lora

Quote from: translora on February 14, 2013, 03:52:50 PM
This is an interesting subject. I do wonder if there is any statistical information which would back up the idea that more transwomen have an interest/aptitude in systems than the general population. Flipping that over, it would be interesting to know if an interest in technology is in any way a predictor of future trans issues. (My hunch is that there is no such data, and if it existed, we'd be surprised to see that it wouldn't actually support the anecdotes.)

I personally don't think there is any correlation. I have no interest in technology aside from my smart phone which I can't live without. I just have a talent to be able to figure complex things out. To me, it is easy and boring. My true passion lies in psychology. I initially did not go into the technology field. I went into the military and was placed in the technology field.

Quote from: Ultimus on February 12, 2013, 10:06:40 PM
There seems to be a huge correlation between being transgender and having a job as a computer programmer, computer engineer, or an IT job, among other computer geek professions. Myself including, I am a math / CS major.

Why is this?

forgive me for not reading the entire thread but my 2 cents say

1. computers don't care about your gender, they don't judge
2. computer science is about problem solving... and for us we all have spent lifetimes trying to solve our gender problem.  we became very analytical about gender, this spilled over into other areas.

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 12, 2013, 11:26:51 PM
I kind of suspect it may be just that those with early access to computers may be more likely to have spent a lot of time on the net and discovered they were trans. More access to information. The percentage will probably go down as the computer raised kids get older.

Yes. You don't want to base your sample on those you'll find on a relatively obscure 'net forum. Seems to me the population here now is a lot less heavily skewed to IT than it was when I was first connecting via computer with transwomen before the Web was born. I mentioned a trans sister who was a kind of mentor to me (and local friend) before my now almost 19-year-old was born. She was very heavy IT, and so were well over half the transwomen on the forums. The distribution in face-to-face support groups, though, was very different (and as others have pointed out, global patterns for transwomen are almost certainly very, very different than those on this forum).  I would suspect a forum like this one to be quite skewed and unrepresentative, even though IT jobs are now more numerous and varied than they were back then.

Quote from: oZma on February 14, 2013, 04:17:25 PM
forgive me for not reading the entire thread but my 2 cents say

1. computers don't care about your gender, they don't judge
2. computer science is about problem solving... and for us we all have spent lifetimes trying to solve our gender problem.  we became very analytical about gender, this spilled over into other areas.

Take out the word computers and put instead dogs and you'll see why I love dogs :)

Interesting question, yes I'm another engineer trans woman, hired by an big IT company as R&D researcher that learned programming in a venerable PDP-11 and using punched cards, and now working as  researcher on photonic networks projects. wow. But now, when i meet face to face with other trans-sisters i discovered a wide set of sisters working on very different professional fields, hair stylists, waitress, automotion, carpenters, heavy industry welders, a deputy of the government of Madrid, journalists and others sadly unemployed, but the percentage on IT people continues high.

I don't know the reason, but i think this is related to two phenomenon.

1: The network is young and it was dominated by engineers until few years ago, before the internet explosive grow opened it to the rest of population.
2: Technological work requires a wide open mind and a lot of logic, your main tool is your mind, so people tends to be more opened to differences.

Kisses
Amanda

I'm a car saleswoman (probably uber rare?) being that it is all face to face interaction and a highly male influenced work environment. I don't think gender is a barrier no matter the career field as long and you strive for success. I love breaking down stereotypes. We women do what we know.

Quote from: Serena Lynn on February 14, 2013, 08:45:08 PM
I'm a car saleswoman (probably uber rare?) being that it is all face to face interaction and a highly male influenced work environment.

Not to mention that you need to lie your pants off.  :P

Quote from: DianaP on February 14, 2013, 08:51:14 PM
Not to mention that you need to lie your pants off.  :P

We're not all liars. It's the non-liars that have success. Treat customers the way you want treated. :)

Quote from: DianaP on February 14, 2013, 08:51:14 PM
Not to mention that you need to lie your pants off.  :P

Actually the best salesmen/women are the ones who can sell a product without lying about it. Nothing will come back to bite them. I have to do it every day as part of my job though I don't sell cars I sell memberships and other services.

Quote from: Serena Lynn on February 14, 2013, 09:11:21 PM
We're not all liars. It's the non-liars that have success. Treat customers the way you want treated. :)

Well, for future reference...  :P = Me being facetious.

:P :P :P

I'm trying to get into the IT department at work. What I find draws me to it is the fact that I will have to deal with a lot less people on a daily basis while I'm transitioning, I find the work interesting and it pays A LOT more.

I have always worked in traditionally female careers. I did a lot of babysitting during my teens. All of my adult jobs have been in either social services or education. I was an instructional aide in an autism classroom for about seven years. I've worked at a preschool. Lately I've been the front desk / greeter person for a state agency. I answer a lot of phone calls and do a lot of clerical work. Usually I'm the only "guy" around.

Quote from: DianaP on February 14, 2013, 09:20:31 PM
Well, for future reference...  :P = Me being facetious.

:P :P :P

I knew you were silly! :)

I entered veterinary medicine because my patients could care less as long as I care for them.  And my clients could care less, because they see how much I care for their "children".  And I get kisses from my patients that no computer can give.

Quote from: Ms. OBrien VT on February 14, 2013, 09:45:52 PM
I entered veterinary medicine because my patients could care less as long as I care for them.  And my clients could care less, because they see how much I care for their "children".  And I get kisses from my patients that no computer can give.

Thanks for taking care of our loved ones.

Quote from: Ms. OBrien VT on February 14, 2013, 09:45:52 PM
I entered veterinary medicine because my patients could care less as long as I care for them.  And my clients could care less, because they see how much I care for their "children".  And I get kisses from my patients that no computer can give.

Wow everything I have heard is that veterinary schools are very hard to get into and it's a complex field since it requires knowing about everything from hamsters to horses. I am always amazed at how my vet can calm down one of my dogs when he sees them. It a profession I know little about and admire greatly.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on February 13, 2013, 11:14:32 AM
My opinion about this is really unpopular so please don't read it if you are really sensitive, but mainly it's because men are more interested in those fields and most TS women are interested in mostly male dominated things.

....hmmmm, I don't think it's that TS women are more interested in male things as alot of us went to 'male' work because we had something to 'prove'. I think that's why alot of the general public are shocked when a "male" transitions to female because there are a lot of police/military/truckers that went into that field as something to prove, but in the end couldn't take it..

As to the original question: why so many trans women are programmers/engineers/IT?  Alot of posters have already pointed out the social anxiety aspect which was particularly pleasing to me, but I think the 'nerd' aspect is the most attractive.

These jobs are quite "genderless" when compared to professions like florist, hairdresser, dancer or retail (which are quite female dominated). No, I'm not proposing that these jobs don't require skill as they do, but when interviewing for these jobs, 'gender', whether consciously acknowledged or not, does play a part in the selection process, yet professions that are so skill based and disregard things like 'lifestyle' are easier jobs to obtain for someone feeling ...genderless/confused. You don't pick that up in an interview situation. As long as you have the skill you are employed.
You can't say that for something like, say, hairdressing, where your appearance does play a huge part. You're expected to be fashionable and usually immaculately presented. You won't get the job, even if you were "Oprah's personal stylist" if you look like a slob. As you someone who walks into your building when you have server problems? They can dress how they like can't they? You don't doubt their ability.
I'm going to be honest and say I don't want just anyone touching my hair!!! I will judge that persons skill on how they present themselves. Not particular political correct, but hey.... I'm being honest.

You can f**k with my server, but don't touch the hair!!

Love and Respect

Jenny

....oh, and respect and love to EmSchuma for the pink Lux avatar.

Love the open source!!!

OXOXOXO

Jenny







SUDO:Typed on a linux mint box

Quote from: Jenny_B_Good on February 15, 2013, 02:52:18 AM
....oh, and respect and love to EmSchuma for the pink Lux avatar.

Love the open source!!!

OXOXOXO

Jenny







SUDO:Typed on a linux mint box

:D :D :D Thanks!  I'm a kernel hacker, maybe you're running code that I've written!

* Written on Archlinux

Quote from: EmSchuma on February 15, 2013, 07:03:03 AM
:D :D :D Thanks!  I'm a kernel hacker, maybe you're running code that I've written!

Yikes. I've tried playing with the linux kernel code. It gave me nightmares.

Quote from: Emily Elizabeth on February 15, 2013, 07:10:55 AM
Yikes. I've tried playing with the linux kernel code. It gave me nightmares.

It's not that bad, but I stay out of the core kernel stuff.  I do filesystems work.

Quote from: EmSchuma on February 15, 2013, 07:43:51 AM
It's not that bad, but I stay out of the core kernel stuff.  I do filesystems work.

I actually believe that the bible has a spelling mistake:

Mathew 5:5
Blessed are the meek geek: for they shall inherit the earth.


Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Michael Dell - These guys earn way too much money.
Internet, MP3 players, smartphones. Geeks are the new trend setters!

Quote from: MaidofOrleans on February 13, 2013, 06:41:08 PM


Many of the younger transitioners are caught with no work or schooling experience because they faced the adult world as out trans women and not men with a secret.

This is so, very, very true!

Besides that: you MUST have a MASCULINE personality/character to work and compete in a male dominated environment.

Forget about that if you're notably/openly feminine!

Because transwomen are naturally smarticle at math, Duh!

Quote from: Dahlia on February 15, 2013, 08:34:17 AM
This is so, very, very true!

Besides that: you MUST have a MASCULINE personality/character to work and compete in a male dominated environment.

Disagree with that statement my work is very male dominated. I am the only female sales consultant out of 28 men. I kick their butts every month even before I began transition.

You CAN be trans and work in any career. You don't have to be ultra fem, computer programmer, hair dresser, gay, etc... to transition in the work place, have success, or compete.

Quote from: Serena Lynn on February 15, 2013, 09:07:19 AM
out of 28 men. I kick their butts every month even before I began transition.

Sounds like  something like 'man enough to be a woman'  ;)

Quote from: Serena Lynn on February 15, 2013, 09:07:19 AM
Disagree with that statement my work is very male dominated. I am the only female sales consultant out of 28 men. I kick their butts every month even before I began transition.

You CAN be trans and work in any career. You don't have to be ultra fem, computer programmer, hair dresser, gay, etc... to transition in the work place, have success, or compete.

Im going to hearken back to a point I made earlier with this.

Do not take it personally Serena it's not my intention to attack you. I'm glad you are doing well but I disagree with your opinion.

Quote from: MaidofOrleans on February 13, 2013, 06:41:08 PM
I notice a lot of trans women in male dominated fields with good pay because they transitioned after they had the schooling and experience provided by male privilege. These late transitioners are in a kind of sweet spot if they managed to keep their jobs. Many of the younger transitioners are caught with no work or schooling experience because they faced the adult world as out trans women and not men with a secret.

Do you really honestly think that you would have even gotten the job you are in let alone been succesful at it had you applied as an out trans woman and not a man?

I like your enthusiasm and positive attitude but lets be realistic here.

My own therapist constantly pressures me to get into a better and safer position at work before coming out because she has had many patients be denied promotions or just treated like crap simply for being trans.

Quote from: MaidofOrleans on February 15, 2013, 12:27:34 PM
Do you really honestly think that you would have even gotten the job you are in let alone been successful at it had you applied as an out trans woman and not a man?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I would like to answer. I have always held a position in very male dominated areas. However, there have always been a few women there too. They got the job because they were smart and qualified. It made no difference that they were women. I am in line for a new, higher paying, better benefit job and I am an out and proud trans woman. They know I am trans and don't care. I feel it is entirely possible for cis and trans women to be successfull in this world, and it has nothing to do with formerly having male privilege.

Quote from: Brooke777 on February 15, 2013, 12:39:41 PM
I know this wasn't directed at me, but I would like to answer. I have always held a position in very male dominated areas. However, there have always been a few women there too. They got the job because they were smart and qualified. It made no difference that they were women. I am in line for a new, higher paying, better benefit job and I am an out and proud trans woman. They know I am trans and don't care. I feel it is entirely possible for cis and trans women to be successfull in this world, and it has nothing to do with formerly having male privilege.

I never said it wasn't possible only high improbable and the current stage of trans affairs supports that point.

You are missing my point i'm not saying we aren't capable i'm, saying we are denied because of what we are capable or not. I know im being a negative Nancy and nobody likes those but positive doesn't exactly describe a majority of trans women' experiences in the work world.

I think the trans women that blend in as female have an easier time in the work force, especially in male dominated fields. Employers are probably worried about how much of a distraction we will be as trans, and the less "passable" are probably considered more of a distraction and as a possible "negative" to a customer base.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on February 15, 2013, 01:06:46 PM
I think the trans women that blend in as female have an easier time in the work force, especially in male dominated fields. Employers are probably worried about how much of a distraction we will be as trans, and the less "passable" are probably considered more of a distraction and as a possible "negative" to a customer base.

It does require a thick skin to put up with the sexism. Some times the guys are being a-holes even when they don't realize they are being a-holes. Luckily I got used to it. It wasn't easy being the only woman in the software group, but all in all we got along really well. They had a program at work where I could sign up and get a discount membership for Costco. One day I get a letter in the mail, and it says for the wife of "so and so", a name of a male coworker. They had me listed as his wife. I was seriously eating that up and constantly ribbing him about it. It ended up being a running joke in our office. It was fun bossing him around I will admit :)

One thing I have noticed about IT field, at least in Australia, even though the vast majority are male (my uni classes were like 98% male) it still feels to me like it is very equal opportunity industry and I've come across very little sexism. In most IT companies I have been in it was always so task orientated that if you could do the job, nothing else mattered. And IT is full of weird people that would not fit the traditional mold in other types of work.

Most of the female workers have usually been designers or analysts or some kind of consultant and not actually doing any software engineering but there have been a few that have inspired me (and me, ofcourse but I am still yet to come out).

Gravitating to gender neutral, task based, socially devoid work is probably just something that came out subconsciously for most..

I never know this was so common. Funny thing is, I'm going to school for a Bachelor's in Software Development. I guess we can add another one to the list :) .

I m doing an apprenticeship in IT too, but I don't know wether I m doing this for the rest of my life or if I ll just get bored out.
Going to school for some time of the year in this apprenticeship too, I knew about this stereotype and somehow thought it was confirmed. In my class we had one girl whom I strongly suspected of beeing trans(voice, face etc, but she dropped out) , one lesbian butch GG who looked and dressed like a boy(also dropped out) and one extremely feminine gay boy(looks like xxy to me, voice, no facial hair etc). When I think of it I really can't believe it. :D

On the original question:
  Based on my personal experience and the discussions I've had with others in the community, I believe that the "wiring" in the brain of transwomen (MTF trangender) is sufficiently different from the statistical male or female norm that our approach to solving problems is also notably different.

I expect this is the case for transmen too.  I have not had an opportunity (yet) for any in-depth conversations with transmen.

Long before I had a vocabulary to describe what was going on inside of me, yet knowing I was different than the other people around me, I found interacting with people on a technical level to be more comfortable than typical social interactions. Exploring and problem solving in electronics and computers just felt better than dealing with people.
To this day, I still solve problems differently than most cis-gender males and differently than most cis-gender females.  One of the benefits of being transgender.

In my case, math (up through beginning calculus), electronics, programming and mechanical systems all seemed very natural when I was young. I gravitated towards software and where software and hardware interact. I started working in High-Tech in the late 70's, long before the Internet was popular (more than a decade before the HTTP protocol was invented).

-Cindi

In my mind, though, programming and maths are pretty far away from each other in terms of what you need to do to complete the task. And even farther away from electronics and mechanical systems... oo'

I barely get anything about electronics or electrical stuff as a whole, am far from the best in math (integrals were just so hard I don't know if I could've passed the course if I hadn't gone on sick leave) and completely SUCK at physics and anything mechanical... yet my teachers are all impressed at how easy programming is to me compared to the rest of the class.

Though I, too, feel like my way of thinking is very different from anyone else's. I don't see it as an advantage, though. Causes me issues, mainly.

Quote from: A on March 15, 2013, 01:49:03 PM
In my mind, though, programming and maths are pretty far away from each other in terms of what you need to do to complete the task. And even farther away from electronics and mechanical systems... oo'

I barely get anything about electronics or electrical stuff as a whole, am far from the best in math (integrals were just so hard I don't know if I could've passed the course if I hadn't gone on sick leave) and completely SUCK at physics and anything mechanical... yet my teachers are all impressed at how easy programming is to me compared to the rest of the class.

Though I, too, feel like my way of thinking is very different from anyone else's. I don't see it as an advantage, though. Causes me issues, mainly.

Pretty much this. Programming is logic and creative thinking - the computer does This, then This, then That. Math is ... Math. No creativity. Just numbers.

Or perhaps, programming is the act of creating a system. Math (and physics et al.) is the act of describing a system.
They appeal to different people.

I do wonder - do you have an advantage on standardized tests? Maybe that is a side effect of our particular thought processes.

I don't worry about math too much.  I can program the computer to do math for me :P

When I was going into preschool my mother was told, "I'd carry around a calculator like women carry around a purse." which is now so funny for so many reasons.

It depends on what you're doing.  When I was doing low level graphics, there was a lot of math there with Matrices and Vectors.  My Computer Security professor warned us about there being "math there" in the advanced cryptography class which I didn't take.  Lots of math in report generation I've created too, mostly stats.  Heck, Machine Learning seems to be mainly a lot of stats though I'm not an expert in that field.  Now that I've done a bunch of web development, not so much math there though.  More just how data relates to each other.

Given where I stared with Math, being held back and all, and where I am now now I have a serious case of, "If I can do it just about anyone can".  For me I needed to change how the math looked, falling back to lattice multiplication and Austrian Subtraction http://www.sonoma.edu/users/w/wilsonst/courses/math_300/groupwork/altsub/aust.html (http://www.sonoma.edu/users/w/wilsonst/courses/math_300/groupwork/altsub/aust.html) cause the standard way I was taught in school freaked me out too much.  Lattice multiplication takes longer, but at least I get the right answer so I end up being faster!

Quote from: Misato33 on March 15, 2013, 05:56:26 PM
When I was doing low level graphics, there was a lot of math there with Matrices and Vectors.

I remember that... I had a lot of trouble following all of it in class!

Graphics == hard
Operating systems == easy

Graphics? How is there even the slightest amount of maths in graphics?

That, and...

Quote from: ZoeM on March 15, 2013, 02:28:24 PM
I do wonder - do you have an advantage on standardized tests? Maybe that is a side effect of our particular thought processes.

I don't understand what you mean.

Quote from: Cindi Lane on March 14, 2013, 08:31:57 AM
On the original question:
  Based on my personal experience and the discussions I've had with others in the community, I believe that the "wiring" in the brain of transwomen (MTF trangender) is sufficiently different from the statistical male or female norm that our approach to solving problems is also notably different.

I expect this is the case for transmen too.  I have not had an opportunity (yet) for any in-depth conversations with transmen.

Long before I had a vocabulary to describe what was going on inside of me, yet knowing I was different than the other people around me, I found interacting with people on a technical level to be more comfortable than typical social interactions. Exploring and problem solving in electronics and computers just felt better than dealing with people.
To this day, I still solve problems differently than most cis-gender males and differently than most cis-gender females.  One of the benefits of being transgender.

I don't or didn't as they case is have this experience at all. I have always related to and interacted better on a social level and even feel more female then trans, whatever that means. I'm not just saying this to justify something or making things up in my memories. I have an exceptional memory and an extensive vocabulary. I graduated head of my class in communications and was the only male ever to do so. Or so they think.

Quote from: A on March 15, 2013, 10:01:19 PM
Graphics? How is there even the slightest amount of maths in graphics?

Being able to write a pixel shader and get the desired effect often takes math.  Calculating surface normals.  Applying transformation matrices in the right order so you get the desired output.  Trig so meshes are positioned and built as required in relation to the camera and each other.  Calculating view to screen coordinates.  I've had all kinds of fun in 2D and 3D.  Oh, arcs and the SVG spec.  I recall THAT was a fun one to implement in GDI+.

Then there is just understanding what math is "going on under the hood" so you know what you need to do to have smooth animations.  Hit that a couple of times.

Quote from: Anna Michele on March 15, 2013, 06:05:56 PM
I remember that... I had a lot of trouble following all of it in class!
Graphics == hard
Operating systems == easy

I had the same kind of thing for me.

Graphics == Hard
Crypto == Hard and Mind Twisting

Operating Systems == Easy
Device Drivers == Easy

Quote from: A on March 15, 2013, 01:49:03 PM
In my mind, though, programming and maths are pretty far away from each other in terms of what you need to do to complete the task. And even farther away from electronics and mechanical systems... oo'

I barely get anything about electronics or electrical stuff as a whole, am far from the best in math (integrals were just so hard I don't know if I could've passed the course if I hadn't gone on sick leave) and completely SUCK at physics and anything mechanical... yet my teachers are all impressed at how easy programming is to me compared to the rest of the class.

Though I, too, feel like my way of thinking is very different from anyone else's. I don't see it as an advantage, though. Causes me issues, mainly.

Quote from: ZoeM on March 15, 2013, 02:28:24 PM
Pretty much this. Programming is logic and creative thinking - the computer does This, then This, then That. Math is ... Math. No creativity. Just numbers.

Or perhaps, programming is the act of creating a system. Math (and physics et al.) is the act of describing a system.
They appeal to different people.

I do wonder - do you have an advantage on standardized tests? Maybe that is a side effect of our particular thought processes.

For me, solving problems differently did give me some issues early on when I was young.
I was fortunate that both my close friends and those older and wiser that I looked up to were able to assure me that different was not "wrong".
In a odd way , this was the most important lesson that I'm still trying to fully embrace.

The vast majority of the transgender people I've met have one or more exceptional talents. Sadly, many of them can't see how beautifully special they are.

Growing up doing mechanical things made Electronics easier to understand for me.
Understanding Algebra made programming easier for me.