Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hello ladies!!

This is my first post and I'm fairly new here so I'm sorry if it's in the wrong section and whatnot :)

My name is Sophie (at least that's what I go by on here) and I am pre-everything regarding my transition. I wanted to share a bit about myself to see your opinions on whether I am truly transgender or not.

I have had these feelings from the age of about 6 and started crossdressing in private at 13. I am now 18 and out to nobody as I'm not in a good position to do so - it would destroy my very religious family. I myself am also religious and don't want to change that but I worry about the affect it will have on my family. I know for a fact that they won't take it well - my dad frequently expresses a hatred towards the lgbt community and my sister has previously said that transpeople scare her. I am not exaggerating or being dramatic when I say that my dad may kill himself if he finds out, it would mean that much to him.

I sometimes wonder whether I am transgender at all - I like most masculine things and although I'm not particularly manly, I'm not all feminine either. Looking at me with my masculine nose, hands, 5'10" frame and size 10 feet people see nothing but a straight man.

I can't remember a day going by where at some point I would dream and pray that I would be female one day - it has pretty much taken over my private life.

As I said before I am not in a position to be coming out, neither am I in a position to attend therapy, crossdress regularly, grow my hair out, etc.

I know it's unreliable but I have taken the COGIATI test with scores ranging from 220-250
               
I just hope to hear your opinions on this and if anybody has been in a similar situation I would love to hear your stories!!

Sorry this was so long!! :)

Sophie xx                                     

Hi Sophie  :icon_wave:

Welcome to Susan's  :)  Glad to have you here, join on in the fun

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Hugs

V M

Firstly, welcome to the site, I'm relatively new here too!

and in regards to your question, I am by no means a replacement for an actual 1 to 1 therapist, but to me you sound trans, or at the very least you are on the...'spectrum' for want of a better word.
I know you say you are not in a position to seek therapy, but it may end up doing you a world of good.

Hope that things go well for you sophie. ♥

You say:

I can't remember a day going by where at some point I would dream and pray that I would be female one day - it has pretty much taken over my private life.

and that certainly sounds like you are trans in some sense of the word.  But the only person who can determine if you are trans is yourself.   I understand the religious restrictions - my wife is very conservative dChristian and we can't talk about my being trans as it is not really part of her world view.  It can be very tough.

Ir you are trans this is not going to go away or get better on its own.  Over itme it will just get worse and your body will continue to become more masculine.   You should do something about this soon.

You really need to see a (non-religious) counselor/therapist and work this out.  You might tell people you are seeing the therapist for issues relating to depression (which you probably are if you are trying to hide all this.)   

Hi Sophie,

Welcome to the forum. Since you're not in a position to seek therapy, search out all the information you can. It sounds like you may be on the TG spectrum but not necessarily Trans, but those feelings could change as you get older and greater Gender Dysphoria. You probably don't want to get involved with anyone at church. Marrying a girl, especially if she is fundamentally religious and you are Trans will cause worse problems down the road. Believe me, I married a fundamentalist Christian because I fell in love, didn't tell her thinking this was all past, with the blinders of a new relationship.

As for the COGIATI, it is relatively useless as a diagnostic tool for being Trans. It deals with a lot of stereotypes and you can easily manipulate the results depending who you are feeling at the moment. It's about as useful as the survey's in the Ladies Home Journal - maybe interesting, but definitely not a diagnostic tool.

Your best bet - find a job with an Employee Assistance Program - this will allow you a few visits with a therapist who can begin to help you sort things out. Weird thing about being Trans - you are the one ultimately that has to make the diagnosis. The therapist can only help you sort through the issues. Once you are out on your own, you can explore your feelings more. Remember, ultimately, being Trans isn't some part time thing, it's living FULL TIME as a woman. Unless you're ready for that, perhaps you can just explore crossdressing.

Wishing you the best!

Hugs,

Quote from: traci_k on July 31, 2014, 07:31:24 AM
Hi Sophie,

Welcome to the forum. Since you're not in a position to seek therapy, search out all the information you can. It sounds like you may be on the TG spectrum but not necessarily Trans, but those feelings could change as you get older and greater Gender Dysphoria. You probably don't want to get involved with anyone at church. Marrying a girl, especially if she is fundamentally religious and you are Trans will cause worse problems down the road. Believe me, I married a fundamentalist Christian because I fell in love, didn't tell her thinking this was all past, with the blinders of a new relationship.

Remember, ultimately, being Trans isn't some part time thing, it's living FULL TIME as a woman. Unless you're ready for that, perhaps you can just explore crossdressing.

Wishing you the best!

Hugs,

Sophie

Good advice here. Self knowledge, understanding, acceptance and expression takes time.  You may be trans* and you may not.  A good gender therapist will help you find your way.

In many ways there are as many genders as there are folk.  Even simplistically, and this is way over simplified, there is binary male, binary female and non binary.  You may strongly identify as any one of these, you may be fluid or you may find that you are not trans* at all, which is why a qualified therapist is quite essential.  In the meantime there is a lot of research that you can do, there is a massive amount of information right here on Susans and our family is extremely diverse.  Each of us is here for each other, here to listen, to share and to support.  Further down the road you may choose to manage your situation in a number of ways ranging from life style changes through low dose hrt through partial or through a full binary transition.  Because we are all so different the standard trans* narrative (even if there is one) may not apply.

Taking it a step at a time is normally the least stressful and easiest approach.  You can over think this.  It is your narrative.  You are  unique.  You get to choose your journey, its speed and its direction.  The initial destination may or may not be your final destination.  The journey is, in many ways, more important than the destination.

Safe travels

Aisla

I appreciate that external input can be vital but such a fundamental question is something incredibly integral to you and your future so I'd argue it's important that conclusions are utterly your own, Sophie, so you have control over your life. People can help guide you to realisations but you're the one that ultimately achieves them.

Having said that, I hope you don't mind me writing the following and hope it doesn't bias you in any way:

QuoteI sometimes wonder whether I am transgender at all - I like most masculine things and although I'm not particularly manly, I'm not all feminine either.

I don't think liking masculine things or not being feminine necessarily means you're not trans, just as meeting every stereotype in the world doesn't automatically make a person trans either. There's no single correct way to be trans or not-trans/cisgender and no single correct way to express your gender, each person's experience is uniquely valid. After all, there are countless women that adore activities traditionally viewed as masculine and engaging in those things doesn't make their fundamental identity less valid. They remain women because that's what they view themselves as.

For me, masculinity and femininity are just one aspect of gender, the definitions are often indicative of archaic and restrictive stereotypes of what's appropriate for people of a given gender to do in life. They are increasingly being broken down and they are not things with the power to determine the legitimacy of your identity alone.

I'd suggest cautiously and kindly asking yourself about the motivation behind your appreciation for masculine or feminine things if you haven't already and think it would help. For example, why do you engage in them? Is it simply because they make you happy? Is it because it's all you've ever known? Is there an attraction because you're seeking things that make your identity feel more valid? Are you trying to convince yourself something is true? Etc. I found the answers to questions like that incredibly helpful, I apologise if you don't find, or haven't found, them useful.

Above all, good luck with exploring yourself in life and as a member. I hope you find the happy life you deserve as quickly as possible. I can't imagine the pressure you're under right now and wish you the best in finding future options for exploring your gender in a way that brings you helpful answers. You inherently deserve better than to be lost in draining questions.

Wow!! I wasn't expecting such informative and helpful replies!! I'm hopefully going to university this year and if I live away from home I may be able to look in to therapy, obviously I'd have to get a part-time job to afford it!! ;)

Really appreciate all the advice you've given me!!
Love you all!! :) xxx

Very good to hear that you are planning on a university education.  Most colleges have an LGBTQ student group or club and many will also have counseling available for low to no cost.  I very much agree with the posts our sisters have made and consider it very good advice.  As a senior citizen who recalls some of those same early feelings you shared I can assure you that these feelings do not go away.  If you are transgender no amount of denial, repression or avoidance will fix it.  Many of us have gone to great lengths to be and act like the man people expected of us.  Ask around on this site and most of us will agree that didn't work either.  A common refrain from those who have accepted themselves and are in transition is; I wish I had done this years ago!  I believe you can find great advice and a wealth of shared experience right here.  A therapist is great help but not essential-IMO

I did not want to be transgender, I wanted to be the mom with babies I once felt was my real destiny.  Instead I too grew up with the testosterone induced characteristics of a typical male with the hands, height and build to match.  I still love some stereotypical male activities.  Those outward characteristics and gender roles do not determine our intrinsic identity.  Women have clearly demonstrated to me that there really isn't anything they cannot do!  Your identity and the gender you feel really are up to you to determine. 

Be yourself Sophie.  Be the most genuine article you can feel inside.  Good and even gorgeous looks will come and go, friends and family too but that internal image is with you all the way.

There is a persistent underlying feeling that says "I am not male" or "I am not female", and that's the determining factor above everything else. How one chooses to live, what interests they have, their life philosophy, and everything else are just part of your personality that has developed over the years. There are cis-women who are into masculine things and present that way, and cis-men who are drawn to femininity to whatever degree, as well. So, why would a transgender person be any different? That's one of the things that always bugs me. You say you're MTF and everyone just assumes you're going to be the spitting image of Barbie. What about those of us who feel "butch"? I mean, I definitely want to present myself so that I'm obviously not male, but I can't see myself wearing dresses, heels and getting my nails done. I doubt I'll ever participate in anything stereotypical, but I still know who I am inside. What other people think is irrelevant, really. Do what you feel is right for you, not right for your family or your community. It's not easy, but reaching that point of transition is far better on your emotional well-being than dealing with immense dysphoria the rest of your life. We're all very different, but it doesn't make us any less trans.

I too am a senior citizen and I too experienced what is being described by Hannah at pretty much the same age.  My family was also Old Country, Old School Catholic.

So what did I do?  I prayed long and hard.  I needed to understand just how this was supposed to work out.  Interestingly since there was no internet, there was no "trans* community".  There was the gay community, the drag queens and the butch and femme lesbians.

There was also my university library which had essentially nothing of note.
The question for me was really very simple.  HOW] was I going to trans-form my body to match who I simply was, despite my physical form.

Things have changed a great deal since my prayers were answered.  Nevertheless, the question for you is NOT whether you are trans* or not, or where on the TG "spectrum" you might choose, (or discover yourself) to be.
The question that I think should be answered is, are you male, female. 

For me being non-binary, or trans, is a choice, and not a particularly wise choice.

It's really disheartening how religions are so rigid and bigoted when it comes to identity, and it's primarily Abrahamic religions. Even in some occult circles they bad mouth going against binary standards as the purpose of spiritual illumination might somehow be skewed. What most people don't know is that in ancient cultures — large civilizations as well as smaller indigenous tribes — they exalted androgyny as a sign of spiritual evolution.

In Hermetic (Egyptian) philosophy there are the principles of Gender and Polarity. They say that gender is in everything, and in balance with each other. The Polarity Principle explains that all things exist in a spectrum. There is no absolute Light or absolute Dark. They are just two fixed points on a spectrum. Where does Light end and Darkness begin? They just move between each other fluidly. Modern religion has removed these mystical elements, and thus they have been removed from society altogether.

Despite all of that there is still the biological element. Humans are susceptible to thousands of genetic anomalies. This is empirical. So the possibility of someone being born with the outer shell of a male, but with the neurology of a female (and everything in between) is not absurd. Maybe it should be if our nature was perfect, but it isn't. Thanks to advances in medicine we can make adjustments that best fit the brain. Some might say that's like playing God, but if you ask me, we are gods. "Let us make man in our image and with our likeness." We have the intelligence and the skills to create or to manipulate life. If such a thing was forbidden then it shouldn't have been part of our design.

So, it only makes sense to modify the body as necessary for one's sanity. I'd think it would be more of an abomination to allow yourself to be in a state of imbalance.

close your eyes and tell yourself out loud: "I am a Girl, and I am going to be myself"

How do you feel ?

Quote from: sororcaeli on July 31, 2014, 08:34:28 PMDespite all of that there is still the biological element. Humans are susceptible to thousands of genetic anomalies. This is empirical. So the possibility of someone being born with the outer shell of a male, but with the neurology of a female (and everything in between) is not absurd. Maybe it should be if our nature was perfect, but it isn't. Thanks to advances in medicine we can make adjustments that best fit the brain. Some might say that's like playing God, but if you ask me, we are gods. "Let us make man in our image and with our likeness." We have the intelligence and the skills to create or to manipulate life. If such a thing was forbidden then it shouldn't have been part of our design.

So, it only makes sense to modify the body as necessary for one's sanity. I'd think it would be more of an abomination to allow yourself to be in a state of imbalance.

I like how you think.

Quote from: Susan522 on July 31, 2014, 10:32:18 PM
I like how you think.

I like how I think, too. :)

Quote from: Tessa James on July 31, 2014, 07:39:17 PM
Very good to hear that you are planning on a university education.  Most colleges have an LGBTQ student group or club and many will also have counseling available for low to no cost.

I'm from England and having just researched, I can't find any evidence of universities helping in a financial way :( when I get there I will have to do more searching :)

Quote from: Tessa James on July 31, 2014, 07:39:17 PM
Be yourself Sophie.  Be the most genuine article you can feel inside.

:angel: awww, that's really sweet Tessa!! Thank you!! :) <3 xxx

Quote from: sororcaeli on July 31, 2014, 08:34:28 PM
Modern religion has removed these mystical elements, and thus they have been removed from society altogether.

I completely agree, there's so much more that's been removed too!! I could yak for hours about this, how long have you got!? ;) xxx

Quote from: Sophie Hannah Alexis on August 01, 2014, 03:42:34 AM
I'm from England and having just researched, I can't find any evidence of universities helping in a financial way :( when I get there I will have to do more searching :)

I apologise if this is condescending and you've already thought about it but won't you have to register with a local GP when at university? If so then I'd suggest that maybe you could show them a copy of the NHS England Interim Gender Dysphoria Protocol and request referral to the nearest Gender Identity Clinic (listed in Appendix 6) while using your university address for any mail so your family doesn't find out. Naturally, the referral can take a shockingly long time but perhaps it's at least an option for accessing specialist therapists in case you can't get the money for private therapy via working while studying?

As an aside, my university has lots of discretionary funds that could be applied for in varying circumstances, is it possible yours does too and you could 'selectively' construct a convincing case for some of those funds while studying to get a little money towards it?

Quote from: Lonicera on August 01, 2014, 03:56:57 AM
I apologise if this is condescending and you've already thought about it but won't you have to register with a local GP when at university? If so then I'd suggest that maybe you could show them a copy of the NHS England Interim Gender Dysphoria Protocol and request referral to the nearest Gender Identity Clinic (listed in Appendix 6) while using your university address for any mail so your family doesn't find out. Naturally, the referral can take a shockingly long time but perhaps it's at least an option for accessing specialist therapists in case you can't get the money for private therapy via working while studying?

As an aside, my university has lots of discretionary funds that could be applied for in varying circumstances, is it possible yours does too and you could 'selectively' construct a convincing case for some of those funds while studying to get a little money towards it?

Not condescending at all :) yes I will have to register with my local GP and while they may refer me, I think I will still have to pay full price for counselling which is pretty hefty on a student budget. Luckily I don't drink so that's a huge chunk saved there!! ;)

As for the discretionary funds, I wasn't aware of this at all. Thank you for bringing it up, I will definitely look in to it!! :) xxx

As someone who is currently seeking counseling and trying to transition, a friend of mine summed it up for me the best when I first told him. Now before I lead into what he told me, I've been dealing with not feeling right since middle school. I never bought into the whole "boys play with GI Joes and girls play with Barbies" mentality. I liked both, hoping to instill the same mindset in my son that he can like whatever he wants regardless of "oh, that's a girl thing. oh, that's a boy thing" mentality.

On to what my friend told me. When I first told him that I wanted to change my gender, but due to my age and role as a parent, I was hesitant. He asked me one question: "Do you have any doubts, or just fears?". I told him I had no doubts, but a lot of fears. His response: "If you had told me you doubted it at any point I would've told you to not do it. But since you don't doubt yourself, I say you should do it. I will stand beside you and try to help any fears you may have, and I know your family, they will help you too"

Now, I know your family is not an option at this point. But the main thing you need to ask yourself is, first and foremost, is who you are. If you can answer that and find that you are physically the wrong gender, then the second question is do you have any doubts. And note, doubt is not the same as fear. Doubt is uncertainty, and a good indication you should do more soul seeking. But then again I'm no therapist or counselor and what I say and anyone else here says is no substitute for one. But we are here to support you and each other, so we are giving our best opinions to your question.

All that said, welcome to the forums and I hope we've been able to help you. :)

Quote from: GenTechJ on August 01, 2014, 05:22:06 AM
As someone who is currently seeking counseling and trying to transition, a friend of mine summed it up for me the best when I first told him. Now before I lead into what he told me, I've been dealing with not feeling right since middle school. I never bought into the whole "boys play with GI Joes and girls play with Barbies" mentality. I liked both, hoping to instill the same mindset in my son that he can like whatever he wants regardless of "oh, that's a girl thing. oh, that's a boy thing" mentality.

On to what my friend told me. When I first told him that I wanted to change my gender, but due to my age and role as a parent, I was hesitant. He asked me one question: "Do you have any doubts, or just fears?". I told him I had no doubts, but a lot of fears. His response: "If you had told me you doubted it at any point I would've told you to not do it. But since you don't doubt yourself, I say you should do it. I will stand beside you and try to help any fears you may have, and I know your family, they will help you too"

Now, I know your family is not an option at this point. But the main thing you need to ask yourself is, first and foremost, is who you are. If you can answer that and find that you are physically the wrong gender, then the second question is do you have any doubts. And note, doubt is not the same as fear. Doubt is uncertainty, and a good indication you should do more soul seeking. But then again I'm no therapist or counselor and what I say and anyone else here says is no substitute for one. But we are here to support you and each other, so we are giving our best opinions to your question.

All that said, welcome to the forums and I hope we've been able to help you. :)

I feel like I've got quite a few fears and only the one main doubt that I talked about. I really do think now that I should be looking for therapy! I'm on holiday at the moment so I will definitely start researching when I get back!! :) xxx

Quote from: Sophie Hannah Alexis on August 01, 2014, 03:42:34 AM
I completely agree, there's so much more that's been removed too!! I could yak for hours about this, how long have you got!? ;) xxx

As the saying goes: I'm here all week! Except now it's nap time.  :icon_baby: I took my Adderall a bit later in the day yesterday after a bit of a hiatus and it's kept me up for far too long. I'm finally knackered...at 6am  :( Whatever you have send me a PM and we'll exchange conspiracy theories.

Quote from: sororcaeli on August 01, 2014, 06:01:53 AM
As the saying goes: I'm here all week! Except now it's nap time.  :icon_baby: I took my Adderall a bit later in the day yesterday after a bit of a hiatus and it's kept me up for far too long. I'm finally knackered...at 6am  :( Whatever you have send me a PM and we'll exchange conspiracy theories.

I'll be honest with you, most of it is just me trying to stick up for my religion against the people who are ruining it for the rest of us  :angel:

You shouldn't feel the need to stick up for your religion. There are crazies in every group. Believe what you believe. For me, it's "An ye harm none, do as ye will". My main religious beliefs? Don't be a jerk, treat others the way you want to be treated, people have different mindsets.

But, that's just me. I'm not a fan of organised religion myself.

Quote from: GenTechJ on August 01, 2014, 06:56:12 AM
My main religious beliefs? Don't be a jerk

;D ;D ;D I love that!! xxx

Quote from: Sophie Hannah Alexis on August 01, 2014, 07:15:03 AM
;D ;D ;D I love that!! xxx

I think it's pretty straightforward, should be a given even. Just, don't be a jerk. :)

As for seeking help from the university. At least here in the States, many student health insurance policies now include transgender care coverage and most have someone devoted to LGBTQ issues.

Just a thought.

Wishing you well on your journey of discovery!

Hugs,

Quote from: traci_k on August 01, 2014, 07:35:19 AM
As for seeking help from the university. At least here in the States, many student health insurance policies now include transgender care coverage and most have someone devoted to LGBTQ issues.

Just a thought.

Wishing you well on your journey of discovery!

Hugs,

We don't have health insurance in the UK because of the NHS, not that I can complain about that though :)

Quote from: traci_k on August 01, 2014, 07:35:19 AM
As for seeking help from the university. At least here in the States, many student health insurance policies now include transgender care coverage and most have someone devoted to LGBTQ issues.

Just a thought.

Wishing you well on your journey of discovery!

Hugs,

I didn't know that. A friend of mine is going to take me to my local community college to get me back on track for my Computer Science degree and she's well aware of my transgender issues. I'll have to look into that, thank you. Also, sorry for derailing the topic there.

Quote from: Susan522 link=topic=170429.msg1486987#msg1486987 date=

For me being non-binary, or trans, is a choice, and not a particularly wise choice.

Susan

With the greatest respect, identifying as trans* is not a choice.  Gender identity is not a choice.  If it were a choice, then I suspect much suffering could be avoided by simply electing to identify in the gender consistent with that assigned at birth.  Dysphoria could be banished by choice and we could all live happily ever after.   Unfortunately for those of us who identify as trans*, dysphoria cannot be simply wished away.   If only it were this simple.

Safe travels

Aisla

Quote from: Aisla on August 01, 2014, 08:37:24 AM
Susan

With the greatest respect, identifying as trans* is not a choice.  Gender identity is not a choice.  If it were a choice, then I suspect much suffering could be avoided by simply electing to identify in the gender consistent with that assigned at birth.  Dysphoria could be banished by choice and we could all live happily ever after.   Unfortunately for those of us who identify as trans*, dysphoria cannot be simply wished away.   If only it were this simple.

Safe travels

Aisla

I think you are engaging in what I think is referred to as "identity politics".  I am not sure that is the right term., but it seems to me that how one identifies can vary from day to day, even hour to hour and may not bear any relevance to how others identify you. 

Self identifying as trans* is to accept and identify oneself as something other than male or female.  There is another thread on here about trans* as a third gender.

In any case it seems that we have a simple difference of opinion.  Nevertheless, I think that Imight have some idea to what you are referring to but the language is what is causing the difficulty.

I see one's sexual identity as distinct to one's gender presentation.  what I am/was making reference to was one's sexual identity which is in my view immutable, whereas I generally "butch" or "femme" up at will.

Susan

No biggie.  Your language did cause confusion.  I think that we are on the same page but wish to restate my understanding to confirm same.  I agree that gender identity is innate to the individual, it can be fluid, it can be fixed and it shouldn't be confused with sexuality.   Gender identity is not a choice,  it is innate, it is as you say, 'immutable'.   It may be binary or it may be non binary.

In contrast, gender presentation normally involves an element of choice.  The goal of most  trans* (an umbrella term covering those whose gender identity is other other than their birth assigned gender) is usually the alignment of gender identity with gender presentation. Once someone identifies as trans* most need or choose to change their gender presentation in order to feel authentic and to be seen and recognised as the gender in which they identify. Others may choose to make a political statement so that while they may identify as M or F etc they may choose to present as GQ.  Another may identify as M or F etc but choose to present as A etc, while others may choose, as you put it, to 'butch' or to 'femme' up.   

Aisla

" The goal of most  trans* (an umbrella term covering those whose gender identity is other other than their birth assigned gender) is usually the alignment of gender identity with gender presentation. Once someone identifies as trans* most need or choose to change their gender presentation in order to feel authentic and to be seen and recognized as the gender in which they identify."

I guess I just don't see it that way.  I have met and interacted extensively with some delightfully androgynous or GQ people.  For the most part they tended to be female who presented androgynously and/or just didn't buy into or act out in what could be described as generally accepted male or female behavior.
Nevertheless they still had female sexual characteristics.  They actively chose to identify as androgynous or GQ but, despite their identity, they were still female.

I see a clear distinction between these folks and someone like Jamison Greene who after much soul searching finally came to his personal truth that he was in fact male, despite being born with female characteristics.

Quote from: Susan522 on August 02, 2014, 03:13:07 PM
" The goal of most  trans* (an umbrella term covering those whose gender identity is other other than their birth assigned gender) is usually the alignment of gender identity with gender presentation. Once someone identifies as trans* most need or choose to change their gender presentation in order to feel authentic and to be seen and recognized as the gender in which they identify."

I guess I just don't see it that way.  I have met and interacted extensively with some delightfully androgynous or GQ people.  For the most part they tended to be female who presented androgynously and/or just didn't buy into or act out in what could be described as generally accepted male or female behavior.
Nevertheless they still had female sexual characteristics.  They actively chose to identify as androgynous or GQ but, despite their identity, they were still female..[/i]

Susan

I think I can now see where the language may be causing an issue.  Gender identity is not sexual identity; Gender identity is not determined by sexual characteristics; Gender presentation is not necessarily a reflection of gender identity; and gender presentation should not be confused with sexuality.  As trans* the focus is on gender identity not sexual or birth identity.

You appear to be focused on birth gender and the physical characteristics that then follow as defining whether someone is male, female or non binary.  As trans*, birth gender does not reconcile with gender identity.  Addressing this disconnect is the trans* experience.  Presentation, physical modification and therapies including hrt are commonly used to bridge this chasm.  Some may elect to use all, some or none of the methods to address their dysphoria.

In your example your friends appear to be F who have chosen to present as non binary so their gender is not non binary as they still identify as F.  They are simply F who like to play with their presentation.

However if your androgynous friends present as non binary and gender identify as non binary,  then they are non binary, primary sexual characteristics notwithstanding.  They may or may not have taken or choose to take steps to align their gender identity with their physical body, chemistry etc.

Gender identity is unique to an individual.  Their appearance may be gendered and may provide a clue as to their gender identity and may be consistent with their birth gender or it may not, and gender identity is more than a simple classification as F or M.

Aisla

unfortunately this is a question that can only be answered by you, and a therapist would help you reach a conclusion through a written test that is more definitive than the COAGATI, and also through conversations with him or her that would allow you to express your true self. Also, a therapist may recommend that you attend a transgender group meeting, which would allow you to meet with other trans women in person.  And if you haven't had the opportunity to see your self in women's clothing with a full wig and makeup, doing so will allow you to see a glimpse of your true self (if you are really trans), and help you in making a decision.  As far as physical traits are concerned, hormone replacement therapy will help to feminize your face and body in a few years, and plastic surgery is an available option as well; you can get facial feminization surgery, breast implants, liposuction for a feminine contour, hip and butt augmentation, etc., but our height, and hand/foot size is what it is.  Another important procedure you will need to help you pass is laser hair removal and electrolysis; it is extremely important and should be started as soon as possible.   

" As trans*, birth gender does not reconcile with gender identity.  Addressing this disconnect is the trans* experience....In your example your friends appear to be F who have chosen to present as non binary so their gender is not non binary as they still identify as F.  They are simply F who like to play with their presentation."

I must have missed that memo.  I don't see people being born with gender.  I see gender as a social construct which helps society differentiate between male and female.  As for my friends, you are wrong.  Being an inquisitive type, I inquired deeply into just what this meant, (this non-binary/androgynous presentation).  I was clearly told that this was who/how they identified and it was who they were.  Because we are friends, I was able to explore more deeply and they were clear to me that their sexual orientation, (the people that they were attracted to sexually), was "all of the above, M/F/whatever.

So yes we come from different schools of thought.  I believe that we are all born male or female, (or in an infinitesimally tiny minority, intersex or sexually ambiguous.)   I think that from that moment of birth we are taught/conditioned to behave in that manner deemed appropriate to our sex at birth.

In the case of the transsexual, for reasons yet to be fully understood, that conditioning runs contrary to the innate sexual  identity of that child, resulting in that desperate dysphoria which usually ends in either a full medical transformation or death. 

In the case of the transgendered or trans* individuals, the results are as myriad as the nuanced colors on a spectrum.

"Gender identity is unique to an individual.  Their appearance may be gendered and may provide a clue as to their gender identity and may be consistent with their birth gender or it may not, and gender identity is more than a simple classification as F or M."

Again...you are speaking about social construct, a fungible choice, or maybe even a paraphilia, I don't know as I am certainly no expert in trans* culture or experience.  Nevertheless I do understand what it means to be born with the wrong sexual characteristics, (genitals), and I can assure you that that is NOT a good thing or a pleasant experience.  But...it can be remedied and the sooner the better.

Quote from: Susan522 on August 02, 2014, 07:15:21 PM
" As trans*, birth gender does not reconcile with gender identity.  Addressing this disconnect is the trans* experience....In your example your friends appear to be F who have chosen to present as non binary so their gender is not non binary as they still identify as F.  They are simply F who like to play with their presentation."

...I don't see people being born with gender.  I see gender as a social construct which helps society differentiate between male and female. 

So yes we come from different schools of thought....   I think that from that moment of birth we are taught/conditioned to behave in that manner deemed appropriate to our sex at birth.

In the case of the transsexual, for reasons yet to be fully understood, that conditioning runs contrary to the innate sexual  identity of that child, ..

In the case of the transgendered or trans* individuals, the results are as myriad as the nuanced colors on a spectrum.

"Gender identity is unique to an individual.  Their appearance may be gendered and may provide a clue as to their gender identity and may be consistent with their birth gender or it may not, and gender identity is more than a simple classification as F or M."

....I don't know as I am certainly no expert in trans* culture or experience.  Nevertheless I do understand what it means to be born with the wrong sexual characteristics, (genitals)

Susan

Many thanks for your response   It is now clear that we do differ in terms of the definitions used, our understanding of the trans* experience and our view of the underlying cause of trans.  You are not alone in seeing it as a purely social construct and I am not alone in seeing it as a bio/psycho/social phenomenon

Our language and our narrative differs.  I respect your perspective and wish you well.

Safe travels

Aisla

Just a quick update on how I'm feeling

These past 2 days I've been keeping score on how many times I feel I'd rather be male and how many times I'd rather be female. So far the score stands at...

Female - 20
Male - 1

The weird thing is, I felt really upset about that getting that 1 (I think I was on 7 for female at the time). Also, it was more of a feeling of "right now I don't mind being male, whereas all 20 of the female scores were "I want to be a woman right now!"

xxx

Quote from: missymay on August 02, 2014, 06:55:46 PM
unfortunately this is a question that can only be answered by you, and a therapist would help you reach a conclusion through a written test that is more definitive than the COAGATI, and also through conversations with him or her that would allow you to express your true self. Also, a therapist may recommend that you attend a transgender group meeting, which would allow you to meet with other trans women in person.  And if you haven't had the opportunity to see your self in women's clothing with a full wig and makeup, doing so will allow you to see a glimpse of your true self (if you are really trans), and help you in making a decision.  As far as physical traits are concerned, hormone replacement therapy will help to feminize your face and body in a few years, and plastic surgery is an available option as well; you can get facial feminization surgery, breast implants, liposuction for a feminine contour, hip and butt augmentation, etc., but our height, and hand/foot size is what it is.  Another important procedure you will need to help you pass is laser hair removal and electrolysis; it is extremely important and should be started as soon as possible.

I've unfortunately never had the privilege of meeting another transwoman in person so those group meetings would be nice! As for women's clothing and makeup I've only been able to try on my mum' sand my sister's clothes when I'm home alone - no wigs and never full makeup (only lipstick) :( that said, when I have dressed as a female I've felt so comfortable and so relaxed, the feeling is amazing!! :) xxx

Quote from: Sophie Hannah Alexis on August 03, 2014, 12:34:03 PM
Just a quick update on how I'm feeling

These past 2 days I've been keeping score on how many times I feel I'd rather be male and how many times I'd rather be female. So far the score stands at...

Female - 20
Male - 1

The weird thing is, I felt really upset about that getting that 1 (I think I was on 7 for female at the time). Also, it was more of a feeling of "right now I don't mind being male, whereas all 20 of the female scores were "I want to be a woman right now!"

xxx

I think it's understandable to be upset about the 1 given that a lot of people seem to internalise the idea that they aren't valid and genuine if they ever deviate or ever doubt or ever question or ever have a moment where dysphoria doesn't rule all. Nonetheless, I think it's entirely natural to do those things since there's a lot of social pressure against transgressing gender designations and gender norms. Our cultures inflict a lot of harm on trans people for existing so sometimes feeling like avoiding it seems natural to me, as does appreciating the nature of advantages of being designated male in a patriarchal world. Out of curiosity, may I ask why you're keeping count? Is it to try to 'quantify' your sense of legitimacy?

Quote from: Lonicera on August 04, 2014, 06:10:10 AM
I think it's understandable to be upset about the 1 given that a lot of people seem to internalise the idea that they aren't valid and genuine if they ever deviate or ever doubt or ever question or ever have a moment where dysphoria doesn't rule all. Nonetheless, I think it's entirely natural to do those things since there's a lot of social pressure against transgressing gender designations and gender norms. Our cultures inflict a lot of harm on trans people for existing so sometimes feeling like avoiding it seems natural to me, as does appreciating the nature of advantages of being designated male in a patriarchal world. Out of curiosity, may I ask why you're keeping count? Is it to try to 'quantify' your sense of legitimacy?

My one question for you Sophie, was that one point because it was a "male" thing you liked that caused you to think that? I think the whole idea that men and women like different things and you are judged based on the things you like rather than who you are is wrong. This is a societal problem and not a problem with you at all. I as a woman prefer dresses and skirts and will dress the way I like. However I will always love video games, wrestling, action movies, paintball/airsoft. I'm tomboy in thought, but girly in dress. But again, the problem is this preconceived notion of what is female/male.

So was that 1 point because you liked something stereotypically "male" or felt like you could stay male?

I've only just scanned over the replies here, so I'm not going to address anything previously mentioned, but I do think this fits:

For years the concept of trans never entered my mind; it really only dawned on me this past year. For a couple years I just referred to myself as a "sentient being inhabiting a vessel". Then all of the male pronouns I've heard all my life started to get to me. So many little things started to add up and it made me realize that this body is wrong for me. I'm constantly included in various gender-specific assumptions, stereotypes and so on, and instead of blowing them off or defending myself I just feel sick.

But I've lived as a male for 33 years, and I definitely have some maleness in me, so there are times where the dysphoria gets put on the back burner. The thing with that, though, is that when it comes back it's worse and lasts longer. Having doubts is normal, and primarily psychological. That's why a gender therapist is good to have. Some people are pretty sure of who they are and what they want, and others struggle with what direction to take. Either way, we all have those moments, and they suck. Even after transition, though, it's not like your personality is going to disappear, or your passions, or whatever drives you.

I think if you're here in this forum then you're more than likely trans. I can't see any of my cis-male friends getting on here, that's for sure.

What I usually do is think to myself: what do I want to be 20 years from now? when I think of myself as a 50-something year old man I feel gross and depressed. There are things about me that I like as I am, but it really has nothing to do with my gender. I just think they do because I've never taken any other path. My interests won't change, my taste in music won't change, and I won't get any dumber (or any smarter) with transition. Life might be different, but I'll be who I am rather than the shell I exist in. Dysphoria won't go away, but it'll be considerably less, and that's what's most important. It's not about passing, it's about finally achieving some sanity.

Plus, being trans doesn't mean you have to make a full transition from male to female. Gender is a spectrum. Maybe you just fit somewhere in between? If you're not sure, then find a therapist. This isn't an easy ride for anyone, but it's a necessary one. I'm tired of managing an illusion of myself and enduring all of the inaccuracies because of it. If you haven't reached that point, you will, and then the question "am I really trans" will cease to be.

I wonder if a 'David Bowie' look would work, or maybe a 'Boy George'?

Quote from: sororcaeli on August 04, 2014, 08:06:32 AM
I've only just scanned over the replies here, so I'm not going to address anything previously mentioned, but I do think this fits:

For years the concept of trans never entered my mind; it really only dawned on me this past year. For a couple years I just referred to myself as a "sentient being inhabiting a vessel". Then all of the male pronouns I've heard all my life started to get to me. So many little things started to add up and it made me realize that this body is wrong for me. I'm constantly included in various gender-specific assumptions, stereotypes and so on, and instead of blowing them off or defending myself I just feel sick.

But I've lived as a male for 33 years, and I definitely have some maleness in me, so there are times where the dysphoria gets put on the back burner. The thing with that, though, is that when it comes back it's worse and lasts longer. Having doubts is normal, and primarily psychological. That's why a gender therapist is good to have. Some people are pretty sure of who they are and what they want, and others struggle with what direction to take. Either way, we all have those moments, and they suck. Even after transition, though, it's not like your personality is going to disappear, or your passions, or whatever drives you.

I think if you're here in this forum then you're more than likely trans. I can't see any of my cis-male friends getting on here, that's for sure.

What I usually do is think to myself: what do I want to be 20 years from now? when I think of myself as a 50-something year old man I feel gross and depressed. There are things about me that I like as I am, but it really has nothing to do with my gender. I just think they do because I've never taken any other path. My interests won't change, my taste in music won't change, and I won't get any dumber (or any smarter) with transition. Life might be different, but I'll be who I am rather than the shell I exist in. Dysphoria won't go away, but it'll be considerably less, and that's what's most important. It's not about passing, it's about finally achieving some sanity.

Plus, being trans doesn't mean you have to make a full transition from male to female. Gender is a spectrum. Maybe you just fit somewhere in between? If you're not sure, then find a therapist. This isn't an easy ride for anyone, but it's a necessary one. I'm tired of managing an illusion of myself and enduring all of the inaccuracies because of it. If you haven't reached that point, you will, and then the question "am I really trans" will cease to be.

Incredibly well said. You expanded on what I only touched upon about gender roles or the perception of how one should react in society.

Quote from: GenTechJ on August 04, 2014, 11:53:10 AM
Incredibly well said. You expanded on what I only touched upon about gender roles or the perception of how one should react in society.

Thank you. :) I may be a neurological mess, but at least everything else works up there. I sometimes wonder that the things I say may end up coming across all wrong, so I'm glad it didn't. Cheers!

Quote from: GenTechJ on August 04, 2014, 06:17:52 AM
So was that 1 point because you liked something stereotypically "male" or felt like you could stay male?

That 1 point was a moment when I thought "I'm probably not trans" because I felt that maybe I was supposed to be male, however the other 20 were all situations where I can honestly say that I wanted to be a woman

Quote from: sororcaeli on August 04, 2014, 08:06:32 AM
What I usually do is think to myself: what do I want to be 20 years from now? when I think of myself as a 50-something year old man I feel gross and depressed. There are things about me that I like as I am, but it really has nothing to do with my gender. I just think they do because I've never taken any other path. My interests won't change, my taste in music won't change, and I won't get any dumber (or any smarter) with transition. Life might be different, but I'll be who I am rather than the shell I exist in. Dysphoria won't go away, but it'll be considerably less, and that's what's most important. It's not about passing, it's about finally achieving some sanity.

I get what you mean, I understand that my interests won't necessarily change and I am pretty certain that after I get back from my holiday I will talk to my GP about it (alone!!). As for imagining myself in 20 years, to be honest I can imagine myself as a woman more than as a man
xxx