Susan's Place Transgender Resources

With increasing frequency, we've been seeing forum members speak of a need for gender surgery without socially transitioning. E.g. living post-op as a male with a vagina. They're looking for a way to do this.

The reasoning is usually something like this:
* They have body dysphoria but not social dysphoria.
* Lots of men live perfectly happy lives with vaginas. We have dozens of them posting on our FtM forum.
* Going through an RLE requires needless effort on their part and an uncomfortable year and is not helpful in decided how they want their body shaped.
* The WPATH requirement for RLE is a "guideline" and not a "rule".

Most of the time they are actively discouraged from doing this, often by the site staff. Their reasoning:
* RLE is a good idea because doctors require it.
* This is a huge step, and it's not unreasonable to require a patient to spend a year thinking about it.
* If you're not ready to live as a woman, you're probably not ready for SRS either.

What do you think? Should someone be allowed SRS who is not planning to present as a female?

   YES !

I think that the idea that people who want to physically transition also want to be fully perceived as the gender normally associated with that physical sex is an example of binary privilege.

I personally think you should be able to modify your body any way you see fit.   It's your body, your business.

Sign a waiver that says you can't sue if you have regrets.   You can tattoo your face, pierce your junk or do any of a number of radical body modifications without a letter from a shrink, so why not SRS?

Just my opinion.

Quote from: suzifrommd on September 22, 2014, 01:25:53 PM
With increasing frequency, we've been seeing forum members speak of a need for gender surgery without socially transitioning. E.g. living post-op as a male with a vagina. They're looking for a way to do this.

The reasoning is usually something like this:
* They have body dysphoria but not social dysphoria.
* Lots of men live perfectly happy lives with vaginas. We have dozens of them posting on our FtM forum.
* Going through an RLE requires needless effort on their part and an uncomfortable year and is not helpful in decided how they want their body shaped.
* The WPATH requirement for RLE is a "guideline" and not a "rule".

Most of the time they are actively discouraged from doing this, often by the site staff. Their reasoning:
* RLE is a good idea because doctors require it.
* This is a huge step, and it's not unreasonable to require a patient to spend a year thinking about it.
* If you're not ready to live as a woman, you're probably not ready for SRS either.

What do you think? Should someone be allowed SRS who is not planning to present as a female?

Suzi,
That's the second time I have seen you write that "Lots of men live perfectly happy lives with vaginas...." 

Given the lengths so many of these "perfectly happy men" go to get that problem fixed, I am really intrigued by how you can make such an affirmation which goes very contrary to my own reading of the FTM threads which, on the contrary, has me thinking most would vastly prefer to have a penis if it were easily done.  Would you care to develop?

Regarding the rest of your post, given the number of people who have raised this question directly over the last few weeks, it is well worth asking. 

My own take on it is that for someone who is already living as a woman and is happy, GRS looks like quite a logical step to take for both practical and psychological reasons.

For someone who is planning to continue to live as a man with no intention of ever living as a woman, it is hard, if not to say impossible, to see any practical reason to do so such surgery. Beyond that,  if the intent is really to continue living as a man, in every sense of the term, I'm inclined to believe that in the person's own interest, the psychological motivations should probably be investigated even more than for a more typical MTF as we are getting dangerously close to what could look like automutilation. Not saying it should never be done, just that it would probably require even more precautions than usual.

Just to make sure I'm making myself clear, I can understand that there are MTF's  who want to get GRS done but who, for practical reasons can't transition. They still identify as female though. What I am assuming is we are talking about people who do not identity as female but nevertheless think they would be happier with a vagina than with a penis. 

I'm not going to say it is wrong. Just as growing breasts and staying male is also not wrong. However SRS is a major change for the psyche - and a major change in personal living conditions. And this is where there should be help from therapists so that the patient can learn to adapt. I write this because it is the adaptation of the psyche is exactly what I'm going through now.

So yes, why not. But it needs a support system to be tolerant and understanding; and is that in place? And at the end - the patient may be (wrongly) considered ftm. Public changing rooms and showers / locker rooms may not be accepting. And if the patient went to jail would they be allowed solitary cells?

Ftm have successfully transitioned for years. My gyno is ftm and has not had bottom surgery, looks amazing and works out regularly. So it can be done - in a tolerant country where people respect each other. And that is probably where it needs work and careful thinking through of the consequences.

I agree with what Jill said. It's your body and you should be able to modify it anyway you see fit. I definitely agree about the waiver thing though too. Any regrets later, too bad.

Even though I think the option of srs without presentation should be available I would caution restraint. I am not a fan of gate keeping, for myself it might mean that I will not get the help that I do need because I feel that the therapist who holds my life in their hands is an adversary and not to be trusted with my deepest feelings and problems. That being said if one were to get srs without presenting I think that there should be other requirements such as strict gate keeping that they would need to go through to insure that this is the correct path for the trans individual.

Regret should be kept to a minimum.

Well, I'm not really one to interfere with others making what they feel is the best choice for themselves. That being said though, being a man with a vagina (or a woman with a penis) comes with a great deal of challenges. It's not so simple as it being under your clothes and then living as any cisgender person would. You have to deal with romantic situations, social situations that involve a degree of nudity (locker rooms, even hanging out with friends who are comfortable changing in front of one another because 'we're all men here'), medical situations (including possible discrimination and/or carelessness towards health issues involving that part of your body).

As with a full-on social transition, I just think this is one of those situations that requires a huge ass reality check to assess if the benefits outweigh the consequences.

I am in favor of lowering the requirements for full or partial GRS.

I don't care either way. My only issue is they should have to perform some type of RLE just as I have to. I am having to earn mine and that is all I ask of anyone. It is a slippery slope though. If we allow just anyone to get SRS and the regret statistic soar we will all have problems by providers making even harder than it is to get SRS. Mental health certification should be performed just like with me. :)

Quote from: Jill F on September 22, 2014, 01:53:41 PM
I personally think you should be able to modify your body any way you see fit.   It's your body, your business.

Sign a waiver that says you can't sue if you have regrets.   You can tattoo your face, pierce your junk or do any of a number of radical body modifications without a letter from a shrink, so why not SRS?

Just my opinion.

This is the way I see it. I had to do this for my orchi. I told the surgeon that: "Don't worry. You won't be sued. I have no regrets. It's cool." But that was after I stopped laughing after being asked: "Are you sure that you want to do this?" five times in a row. The way I see it: You are an adult, you sign some papers saying that you waive the right to sue later on and that's it. I think the entire idea of a Real Life Test is dumb as hell. If you are so stupid that you don't fully understand the ramifications of what you are doing, that is YOUR problem and not the doctor. I was lucky to have a therapist that felt the same way. But he was also smart enough to not just rubber stamp a letter for HRT after 90 days. It's YOUR responsibility for what happens and no one else.

Sure, I personally know an individual who has done that. However the long term effect of HT and so on will probably cause male fail. That's their issue to consider.

It's always my recommendation to do as little as possible towards transition, one transitions because they have to, nothing more. In the event SRS only is right for an individual, go for it.

I just read a story about a woman who had a 3rd boob (Total Recall style) installed for reasons of her own. I've also read stories about people who wanted other body parts, legs, an arm, whatever, amputated. I'd guess you can pretty much find a surgeon somewhere to do whatever you want, usually at great risk to your health. I know places where you can find a piercer who will bifurcate your junk if that's what you're into. Sounds like fun.

I don't think any of it is wise but I don't care what you do to yourself. I'll leave my SRS up to me, my surgeon and their requirements.

No. It will only take a handful of regretters and one  sinister right winger and we are back to square one again. Besides what is a surgeon to do? Are we going to let surgeons decide who gets the surgery or not? I would be willing to guess that they are not going to come down on this side at all.

i kinda tried to stay out but i do think i should respond because this has been something that has been on my mind. i'm one of those one that has a desire to be female but i dont want clothing to be associate with this decision. i like the clothes i wear. i dont want to have to be forced to dress as a female just be considered for srs qualification. there are girls who dress like guys but they dont have the desire to become guys, as well as there are guys who dress in female clothing but they dont have the desire to become girls. the decision to get srs should be based on if that is something your truly want and wont regret later because for some people, wearing clothing associated to the gender they wish to become could cause their dysphoria so soar to deadly levels and could cause more harm than good. i do think there should be some type of system in place to fully determine and test that resolve for those who are in this position though. i'm not saying that you having to present as female for an entire year to be qualified to get srs is a bad idea, but for people like myself, there should be a separate system in place to assure if thats exactly what we truly want and wont regret instead of having us present as female. what it comes done to is the person's will to become whole at all cost so for some people, not saying all, but for some people, having to present as female could be a major road block.

People can want what they want, but it all comes down to WPATH Standards of Care.

They are the defining protocol now right or wrong. We can talk this to death, but until there is a MEDICAL protocol in place for special situations you are all at the mercy of the system just like me.  :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 22, 2014, 03:04:09 PM
My only issue is they should have to perform some type of RLE just as I have to. I am having to earn mine and that is all I ask of anyone.

I'm at a bit of a loss for words over this. I'm not sure how to put this, but you appear to be saying that others have to suffer just because you did? What about when people had to do RLE to get hormones - perhaps we should all keep doing that too?

Quote from: Zumbagirl on September 22, 2014, 06:49:40 PM
No. It will only take a handful of regretters and one  sinister right winger and we are back to square one again.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with this. It may actually make the usual transgender transition seem much more acceptable. There's a name for it, which I can't recall, but extreme proposals can be used to make less extreme ones seem more normal. So even if it all goes bad it could turn out to be good for most. Plus I think its a bit of a selfish attitude.

Bring personal responsibility back into vogue and I think a lot of objections would drop. Me, I don't care, people can do what they want with their body so long as they are of sound mind and know the risks and are willing to take responsibility for their own choices for their own body and life. 

I think it would be better than forcing someone into a role they may be hesitant about just to make other people more comfortable about their own choice.

While I totally think that people should have a commitment before heading into surgery, it'd utterly confounding to require anyone to act a certain way and dress a certain way before they can have a body that feels right. 

My thoughts have changed on this.  At first, I would have said srs should only be allowed by those who fit in the "Transexual" group and will live full time.  As I learned about more experiences than my own and saw what others had to deal with, I don't think I have any right to deny or allow treatment for another person.  The same way cis people that judge me want to reduce my access to treatment the same way they have to deal with judgement from their own community.  I don't think that's right.   On the otherhand, I don't think having some safeguards to ensure someone is very serious about the surgery is a bad thing.  Gate keeping doesn't have to always be bad, if it's done in the right way.  It's just not always done the right way as it caters to a narrative that doesn't fit everyone in our community.  That shouldn't be the sole factor for denying treatment if this is what a person truely wants.  Hell, who is to say I man can't have a vagina either?  I know plenty of men that do and they are definetly men.

Quote from: suzifrommd on September 22, 2014, 01:25:53 PM
With increasing frequency, we've been seeing forum members speak of a need for gender surgery without socially transitioning. E.g. living post-op as a male with a vagina. They're looking for a way to do this.

The reasoning is usually something like this:
* They have body dysphoria but not social dysphoria.
* Lots of men live perfectly happy lives with vaginas. We have dozens of them posting on our FtM forum.
* Going through an RLE requires needless effort on their part and an uncomfortable year and is not helpful in decided how they want their body shaped.
* The WPATH requirement for RLE is a "guideline" and not a "rule".

Most of the time they are actively discouraged from doing this, often by the site staff. Their reasoning:
* RLE is a good idea because doctors require it.
* This is a huge step, and it's not unreasonable to require a patient to spend a year thinking about it.
* If you're not ready to live as a woman, you're probably not ready for SRS either.

What do you think? Should someone be allowed SRS who is not planning to present as a female?

If deemed mentally sane, then in my opinion yes, they should be allowed to have their vagina...

How about the hormones to be taken? One way of another he/she would have to take either T or E to ward off osteoporosis...

How about breast implants or breast growth if in E ?  Still present as male, maybe wear a binder?

I do not think that any psychiatrist will give a letter of recommendation to anybody expressing this kind of wishes...

Quote from: AnonyMs on September 22, 2014, 07:26:22 PM
I'm at a bit of a loss for words over this. I'm not sure how to put this, but you appear to be saying that others have to suffer just because you did? What about when people had to do RLE to get hormones - perhaps we should all keep doing that too?

That is not what I am saying!! I am saying if someone wants to do this they should not be given a letter until they complete whatever protocol is developed for this procedure. Just because you are identifying as non binary it should not be a free pass to surgery. I have to prove as everyone else here that I can handle it psychologically and socially. Non binaries should have some form of psychological and social RLE as well to help cut down on incidences of post op regret, that's all!

See, this whole argument against letting whomever wants SRS to have it after a period of commitment is based on the asumption that the catigories of male and female are anything more than sexual features.  Having to wear dresses, date men, grow your hair out, and talk in a lilting voice just because you should have been born with a vagina is demeaning to us.  Sure, if that feels right do it-but saying you have to act a certain way to be a woman is mysoganistic.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on September 22, 2014, 10:49:00 PM
See, this whole argument against letting whomever wants SRS to have it after a period of commitment is based on the asumption that the catigories of male and female are anything more than sexual features.

Not sexual identity categories for crying out loud. Are you people listening at all? What I am saying is OK, but make sure the mental and social skills are there for BOTH identity groups. Post op regret is the only thing I think is important to address before it happens. Jeesh, for the thousandth time I am not against non binaries.

 I am for the mental health and social skills of BOTH groups. I do not care if a person wants a carrot for a nose, just examine this person adequately to see if they can handle having a carrot for a nose. I am getting a little sick of this "Jessica is intolerant stuff". I have supported each and every person here from introduction post's to post op post's.

To answer the question.

NO.

My personal opinion.

People are not ready for normal paths to GCS. Not alone fast tracking.

Been holding way to many hands from some who went through the system who are struggling post op.

It's not a game. It's real lives being effected.

No magic wand to make it all better.

Being it seems to be issues of late, just so not to confuse anyone. That is Izzy the forum member talking.

While normally I am all for personal freedoms but in this case I am not for this personal freedom. And I have several reasons why I guess the first would be if you can't commit to living as a woman for just a year. How in the world do you commit yourself to dilation and all the other hassles that come along with SRS?
Second the surgery was meant for people in the more extreme category that couldn't cope at all with life as a male. Now if your perfectly happy living as a male but just want to have a vagina. Something tells me this is something you can work out in therapy just saying.
Third if were just going to let anybody have the surgery and it's totally a choice we automatically no ground to stand on as far as getting insurance to pay the surgery.
And finally this seems like such a bad idea I've already witnessed how disastrous just allowing anyone to be hormones can be. And it's been made far too easy and I've met far too many mentally unstable people on hormones. This is just asking for trouble letting anybody have the surgery.
It's not just as simple as having a surgery oh now I have a vagina! Were talking about your hormones are going haywire because your body no longer produces testosterone. Which brings up another point how does one plan on staying a male when they're body doesn't produce testosterone? What do you do if you have complications and your having trouble finding a doctor who will treat you because they've never dealt with a post op trans woman?
I'm not just saying this stuff just to say it or make a point these were questions I have asked myself many times that lead me to thought out decision as to whether surgery is right for me or not. And also as someone who has taken the time and the effort to jump through the hoops and fully thought out the ramifications of this decision. 

Quote from: mrs izzy on September 22, 2014, 11:40:10 PM
To answer the question.

NO.

My personal opinion.

People are not ready for normal paths to GCS. Not alone fast tracking.

Been holding way to many hands from some who went through the system who are struggling post op.

It's not a game. It's real lives being effected.

No magic wand to make it all better.

Being it seems to be issues of late, just so not to confuse anyone. That is Izzy the forum member talking.

A large portion of people struggling aren't just dealing with dysphoria, but trouble with the social transition side of things. As I have already stated, I personally know a non-transitioning post-op (MtF type SRS just to be clear.) This individual has proceeded just fine with domestic relations and job, kid relations etc. More power to them. I personally deeply wanted the social transition, and the srs is a defining part of the transition package for me. I don't pretend to know how the non transitioning person properly stated their case for SRS, but I do know it was developed over a very long time. The [big name] US surgeon performed the operation right along side more typical cases.

Quote from: Missy~rmdlm on September 23, 2014, 12:29:49 AM
A large portion of people struggling aren't just dealing with dysphoria, but trouble with the social transition side of things. As I have already stated, I personally know a non-transitioning post-op (MtF type SRS just to be clear.) This individual has proceeded just fine with domestic relations and job, kid relations etc. More power to them. I personally deeply wanted the social transition, and the srs is a defining part of the transition package for me. I don't pretend to know how the non transitioning person properly stated their case for SRS, but I do know it was developed over a very long time. The [big name] US surgeon performed the operation right along side more typical cases.

Anyone who knows the system can buy there way to anything.

As I said I do not agree with anyone fast tracking.

Quote from: mrs izzy on September 23, 2014, 12:47:03 AM
Anyone who knows the system can buy there way to anything.

As I said I do not agree with anyone fast tracking.

Nah the individual prepped for over a decade, and in the end their work insurance covered their SRS. I'm not privy to how the insurance claim worked, as I had my work insurance cover my surgery simply through a medically necessary statement from multiple doctors.

No. Some of my reasons have been stated, but I'll say this:

I have heard post-op regret stories. Dressing in public isn't permanent. The effects of HRT can be reversed. SRS is irreversible and permanent.

Now, if you are a man, you recognize as a man, and there is something that is compelling you to remain a man with a vagina, then okay. Maybe you can get the op.

But if you're planning on transitioning, doing HRT and other ops, then it seems like you are putting the cart before the horse. How can you know you're ready to live your life as a woman if you haven't done it yet and you still want to present male? I know some will respond to that question by saying they would know the same way someone starting HRT knows. Again though, HRT does not have to be permanent IF you discover this isn't the path you want to take with your life.

I dunno if that one was directed towards one of my recent threads or it is just a coincidence or my post had triggered other posts or this is the  "hivemind" effect, but I feel a need to address some of remarks made.
1. Umm, of course not. All those who are different from the rest should be killed with extreme prejudice (preferrably with fire) and their bodies burned afterwards. >:-)  >:-)  >:-) Oh, wait...
Stupid kiddin' aside..
Let's try once more.
1. As was noted, every system can be bypassed and circumvented. You just really need some depth of understanding, little lies and (probably) lots of money. Sometimes, lots of money would be enough. So, there have always been and always will be exceptions. Point is? Do not bring up system and guideline requirements, because the cases we are examining now will be outside of their scope of influence.
2. I am totally not a fan of fast tracking... could not be further from true. I was speaking about individuals who are years into this and have reached a stage when for some objective reason (physical, visual whatever, which is not surgically fixable for different reasons - complications, costs, or surgeons simply dont do that kind of thing) are still "not exactly there". I mean, HRT has its limits and while it can be generous at times, it is not the ultimate panacea.
3. I did not really see any of the posters denying that dysphoria for such individuals is still not there. And we all know what it means, it is just it manifests itself differently.
4. That post which I made had one specific difference - I was talking about legal issues, not visual stuff. Namely, having surgery but opting to stay legally male. There is a slight difference but it is quite important.
5. I have issue with the phrasing "not planning to present as a female", because that does not equal "is presenting as a male". Or is it? Ah, I forgot about binary perceptions of this world - "if You are not X then You surely must be "Y".
6. This discussion is mostly directed towards non-binaries who are contemplating SRS (like me, but in my case that decision is still 4-5 years away. So no fast tracking again. Just thinking and playing with options and what I want and dont want to - so please do not instantly rage, ok?) And yeah, MTF binaries usually dont have those thoughs running around in their heads and just follow the rules and protocols.
7. The issue of social life aspects was raised - that is indeed quite an important aspect, but as all others, it can be avoided at a cost, bigger or smaller. Just dont go to that public gym/swimming pool/locker room and do not other things which might feel You uncomfortable... we are all sane and adequate adults here. Or are we not?
8. Also, please do not this as an attempt to undermine the transition issues which are faced by binary folks... It was totally not meant to. I am getting this "them tryin' to steel our precious" vibe (or - "They Took Our Job!") - it is totally not. It is just challenges and issues binaries and non-binaries are facing are a bit different, yet - at the material time - tools and measures to address them are kinda same. It's degree, amount and intensity of their applications, which is different.
What else? Probably there was something left out, but that's it folks for now and thanks for reading :).
Sometimes You do act funny, but I still love all of You.

I don't think offering a route to treatment for people outside of the binary should be seen as fast tracking. I, for one, think being made to wait at least a year for surgery is an excellent idea. However, the idea that what you wear and how you act during that year should be proscribed to you, on pain of exclusion from medically necessary treatment, is absolutely barbaric.

Basically, everything that Emily just said :)

Quote from: mrs izzy on September 22, 2014, 11:40:10 PM
Been holding way to many hands from some who went through the system who are struggling post op.

I'm interested in this. Most of the health professionals that engage in what we call "gatekeeping" cite protecting from potential regret as their motive.

I'm really interested in your opinion. What sort of measures would help prevent the struggles you've seen? How would you recommend the process be changed to bring regrets down to a manageable level?

I'm also interested in a statistical view of this. What is the rate of regrets that you're seeing? Double digit? Single digit? Less than a percent? What would be an acceptable level of regret? I bring this up, because numbers are important, right? There will never be a zero chance of getting into a serious car accident, but we get on the road anyway because we assess the risks and they're acceptable.

Quote from: suzifrommd on September 24, 2014, 10:57:04 AM
I'm interested in this. Most of the health professionals that engage in what we call "gatekeeping" cite protecting from potential regret as their motive.

I'm really interested in your opinion. What sort of measures would help prevent the struggles you've seen? How would you recommend the process be changed to bring regrets down to a manageable level?

I'm also interested in a statistical view of this. What is the rate of regrets that you're seeing? Double digit? Single digit? Less than a percent? What would be an acceptable level of regret? I bring this up, because numbers are important, right? There will never be a zero chance of getting into a serious car accident, but we get on the road anyway because we assess the risks and they're acceptable.

40% in this year's group I know personally,

I feel there is not enough information given to anyone seeking GCS before there surgery to prepare them for after.

The attempts on life are stemming from prolonged aftercare infections or lack of post GP or GYN acceptance of responsibility in providing care.

So to answer your question more education on HRT ( most start truly do not know why)
More education on GCS, how it is done and what is removed and what is used. 90% that I know have not a clue what old structures are used, where they are used.
Way more pre education in After care. Most even with instructions have no idea of the magnitude of possible complications, infections or issues.

So I feel the system is flawed in it is fast tracking to many who are not ready even with what some call gatekeeping.

Aftercare issues in post ops I feel is why there is regrets and deaths.

As a mentor one can only try and pick up the pieces in the end.

In short, get mental help to get letters for surgery then just dumped to handle all that can go wrong in aftercare alone. No real after GCS care SOC.

Quote from: mrs izzy on September 24, 2014, 12:46:55 PM
40% in this year's group I know personally,

I feel there is not enough information given to anyone seeking GCS before there surgery to prepare them for after.

The attempts on life are stemming from prolonged aftercare infections or lack of post GP or GYN acceptance of responsibility in providing care.

So to answer your question more education on HRT ( most start truly do not know why)
More education on GCS, how it is done and what is removed and what is used. 90% that I know have not a clue what old structures are used, where they are used.
Way more pre education in After care. Most even with instructions have no idea of the magnitude of possible complications, infections or issues.

So I feel the system is flawed in it is fast tracking to many who are not ready even with what some call gatekeeping.

Aftercare issues in post ops I feel is why there is regrets and deaths.

As a mentor one can only try and pick up the pieces in the end.

In short, get mental help to get letters for surgery then just dumped to handle all that can go wrong in aftercare alone. No real after GCS care SOC.

I completely agree I know several women in real life that have had the surgery and have had trouble with getting care post-op. I've heard enough to make me give more serious thought about to whether this was a risk I was willing to take. I've concluded it was but I've put a great deal of thought into it. And I honestly can't get why someone would want to jump into this major life altering surgery without even committing fully to transitioning first.

QuoteShould someone be allowed SRS who is not planning to present as a female?

I certainly don't plan to present as female.

i'm walking on this road of life where i can do stupid things like implanting silicon in my butt, try botox treatment, get a third boob, probably even a fourth and fifth too if i want them, cut off a finger just to see what it feels like, get a tattoo in a visible area like my face, pay a professional to cut off skin in my body so that when it heals my skin will be full of scars in the most beautiful patterns, split my tongue in two, get piercings pretty much anywhere on my body, etc.
most people who get botox treatment don't even know that the tox in botox is the same as in toxic (and very lethal). get it in your bloodstream, and your hearth will take a break for eternity.

do we consider it a sign of severe mental illness to want those kinds of things? maybe the extra boobs, but not the rest.
so why is it so difficult to get surgeries to change secondary or primary sex characteristics?
i don't have the slightest idea, but it might have to do with people who don't conform to gender roles being thought to be possessed by demons, in a distant past that we like to think we have gotten over and above. the extra boob would have gotten that woman burnt at a stake back then, while the scars would have been from the battlefield. tattoos just made you an ex-convict, where they were used to mark criminals.

of course, there is the problem that a whole lot of mental disorder can cause some gender confusion, or be caused by having a gender identity or body map that don't align with the body one was born with. but we don't really need hormones or real life experience or gatekeepers to prove that someone is telling the truth and isn't just... ehh.. well. anyway. all that is needed to know that a person is sane, is assessment by a therapist. to check for any kind of actual mental disorder that might have caused some confusion of fantasy and reality.

if a person is generally sane, apart from wanting opposite sex hormones, different genitals, more or less boobs, and this persists over time, that in itself should be proof of commitment. a whole year of consistently knowing that something is wrong and that the righting of this wrong would make the person happier, should be enough. tattoo artists, the serious ones, will always make sure a person has good reason for wanting a tattoo, and also knows of possible consequences. less invasive treatment, like short time hrt just to see if this fits with the person's brain wiring, could be tried even without any trial time.

and it amazes me to see how a "person who is not planning to present as female" turned into "trans woman" during the course of this discussion.
let's say the person is a real manly man whose body map insists on his penis being the most useless organ this person could ever have been born with, and that a neovagina would be a most desirable replacement.
should this man have to live a full year presenting as a woman, just to get the right genitals?
remember, his genital dysphoria is just as strong as that of many trans women.
oh, and him being a man, he'd of course take testosterone after the surgery.

i really don't see why a person shouldn't be allowed to choose for themselves which genitals are right for them, if any.
of course he needs to be screened for mental illness, just to be sure, and sign a contract that mentions both later corrective surgery if result isn't satisfying, and waiving of rights to sue for doing this procedure, as long as they do everything in the way that poses least risk for the person. this after the person has been properly informed of possible complications and later troubles, of the physical type.

and just to let you know. if they could make nice well functioning penes, and gatekeepers would just quit keeping gates (i'm not trying to break into someone else's house. just renovating my own), i would definitely consider just getting one of those and let that be it for my transition.

Quote from: Taka on September 24, 2014, 06:16:00 PM

let's say the person is a real manly man whose body map insists on his penis being the most useless organ this person could ever have been born with, and that a neovagina would be a most desirable replacement.
should this man have to live a full year presenting as a woman, just to get the right genitals?
remember, his genital dysphoria is just as strong as that of many trans women.
oh, and him being a man, he'd of course take testosterone after the surgery.

i really don't see why a person shouldn't be allowed to choose for themselves which genitals are right for them, if any.
of course he needs to be screened for mental illness, just to be sure, and sign a contract that mentions both later corrective surgery if result isn't satisfying, and waiving of rights to sue for doing this procedure, as long as they do everything in the way that poses least risk for the person. this after the person has been properly informed of possible complications and later troubles, of the physical type.

and just to let you know. if they could make nice well functioning penes, and gatekeepers would just quit keeping gates (i'm not trying to break into someone else's house. just renovating my own), i would definitely consider just getting one of those and let that be it for my transition.

Hi Taka,
This whole discussion thread gets us into to some very interesting areas, for example, I genuinely struggle with the the idea of a "manly man"  preferring to replace his penis with a neovagina. Quite obviously, it is down to what I associate with the concept of a "manly man" but words do have meaning and being equipped with a vagina would not jump to my mind spontaneously as a characteristic one would typically associate with the adjective "manly".  :)

More generally, given all the recent discussions about non-binaries, I am also really curious to understand why someone who defines them selves as non-binary, gender fluid or whatever would nevertheless want to undergo a surgery as invasive and having so much impact on one's future options in life as GRS?   For example replacing a penis with a vagina makes you sterile, requires HRT all of your life afterwards, pretty obviously limits your options in terms of the types of sexual relationships you will be able to get into in the future  and raises all sorts of other practical issues that have already been mentioned anytime you have to undress in a public space.  Again, we are down to what words actually mean and replacing male genitals with female genitals does not sound to me like   a non-binary choice, it sounds like quite an extreme binary choice.

As it happens I am married to a woman who would describe herself as gender fluid, at least partially explaining why she was very accepting about my transition. However, she herself feels absolutely no need/desire to change anything about her body and never has. In her mind, the body is pretty neutral and since this is the case, she sees no reason to change it from what it is to something else. Just in terms of logic, this makes more sense to me than someone who defines themselves as non-binary nevertheless wishing to undergo seriously life changing genital surgery.

Having said all of that, this post should be considered an open question as, given the amount of space the subject has occupied over the last couple of weeks, I really am trying to understand where the NB's are coming from on this question.

Hugs
Donna

P.S. Apparently the recent story about the woman who got a third breast was a hoax  http://fr.eonline.com/news/582050/girl-with-three-boobs-a-fake-everything-to-know-about-jasmine-tridevil-s-elaborate-hoax   (http://fr.eonline.com/news/582050/girl-with-three-boobs-a-fake-everything-to-know-about-jasmine-tridevil-s-elaborate-hoax) and I'm inclined to think that if you start self amputating body parts ( "cut off a finger just to see what it feels like" ) you would quickly find yourself in psychiatric care, no?


   

Quote from: Donna E on September 25, 2014, 06:02:21 AM
More generally, given all the recent discussions about non-binaries, I am also really curious to understand why someone who defines them selves as non-binary, gender fluid or whatever would nevertheless want to undergo a surgery as invasive and having so much impact on one's future options in life as GRS? 

As someone who did exactly that, I'll describe what it was like for me.

Gender is complicated. It isn't just having a "male brain" or "female brain". It involves:
* The roles you play
* How you feel internally
* How you present yourself visually
* How you speak to yourself
* How you relate to others
* Your physical body and how you relate to it
* How you fit romantically into relationships
* A whole lot more...

There are ways in which I see myself as male (how I speak to myself, how I feel internally, and some of the roles I play) and ways in which I'm female (how I relate to others, how I present myself visually, whom I identify with). I had a sense that I needed to be shaped like a female (even though that makes lovemaking far less advantageous). That doesn't affect the ways in which I see myself as male.

So does it make sense that someone could be male in some aspects of their gender and female in others?

Quote from: suzifrommd on September 25, 2014, 06:22:53 AM


So does it make sense that someone could be male in some aspects of their gender and female in others?

Hi Suzi,
I think it is all very much a question of definitions and associations ie. what associations we make with the words male and female. Based on commonly accepted ideas, I could also be considered male (leadership, pleasure in physical activity, analytical skills....)  in some aspects of my personality, a personality that is partially defined by my gender identification but, on balance, I still identify clearly as female and have never been happier with myself than I am now, presenting and interacting with others as a woman. So for me, I see no contradiction between being binary and still having some aspects of my personality which would generally be considered more typical of males... just like so many other women who do not identify in the least as males.

I think we can all accept that extreme male and female stereotypes are more the exception than the rule. Most of us are somewhere in between and I guess the question I was asking in my previous post is when can you talk about a tipping point ie. moving clearly from one side of the gender divide to the other? I'm inclined to think that when you start making major changes to your body you are already beyond that  tipping point and that there is therefore something of a contradiction between defining oneself as non- binary yet still wanting to make such changes, all the more so as they also have a very significant impact on how others perceive us -> "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...." .

Language and the meaning we give to words is very much at the heart of this discussion though. Unfortunately, I don't think  we'll be able to sort that out on a forum like this so maybe there's not too much value in trying to take the subject much further here. Much better over a drink or a dinner.  :)

Hugs
Donna

Quote from: Laura Squirrel on September 22, 2014, 03:20:01 PM
This is the way I see it. I had to do this for my orchi. I told the surgeon that: "Don't worry. You won't be sued. I have no regrets. It's cool." But that was after I stopped laughing after being asked: "Are you sure that you want to do this?" five times in a row. The way I see it: You are an adult, you sign some papers saying that you waive the right to sue later on and that's it. I think the entire idea of a Real Life Test is dumb as hell. If you are so stupid that you don't fully understand the ramifications of what you are doing, that is YOUR problem and not the doctor. I was lucky to have a therapist that felt the same way. But he was also smart enough to not just rubber stamp a letter for HRT after 90 days. It's YOUR responsibility for what happens and no one else.

Can I ask, is this possible in the U.S.  I desperately want an orchi without having to wait a year.  My reasoning is that I want to get rid of the testosterone without having to block it and create that conflict within my own body.  I've done extensive research on the subject and know that is what I want to do for sure, and it is not at all related to some auto mutilation thing.

Quote from: suzifrommd on September 25, 2014, 06:22:53 AM
As someone who did exactly that, I'll describe what it was like for me.

Gender is complicated. It isn't just having a "male brain" or "female brain". It involves:
* The roles you play
* How you feel internally
* How you present yourself visually
* How you speak to yourself
* How you relate to others
* Your physical body and how you relate to it
* How you fit romantically into relationships
* A whole lot more...

There are ways in which I see myself as male (how I speak to myself, how I feel internally, and some of the roles I play) and ways in which I'm female (how I relate to others, how I present myself visually, whom I identify with). I had a sense that I needed to be shaped like a female (even though that makes lovemaking far less advantageous). That doesn't affect the ways in which I see myself as male.

So does it make sense that someone could be male in some aspects of their gender and female in others?

I tend to agree that internalized gender identity is always much more complex for everybody, cis persons included, than just a binary result.  Just about every cis guy or girl I have known has had some traits that are non-binary, but in general people tend to present in a binary fashion.  For me, presenting as binary female or binary male has always taken a lot of work either way.  In many ways people don't express themselves as they are and instead present binary because that is what people seem to expect of you.  I happen to be dysphoric of most masculine traits that I have, including ones that I've developed while being expected to behave a certain way by society.  It can become confusing at times trying to figure out what things are really me and what was a product of social pressures.  RLE flips the coin for you and applies social pressure to conform to the opposing binary result.  I would do this in order to more closely resemble myself.  It doesn't mean I have to always be the ultra feminine person.

Personally, I dislike the idea that social dominance is a masculine or feminine trait.  Many species that socialize, for example meerkats, contain social hierarchies that are led typically by a female leader.  The thing we always have to think is that there is a constant battle between the sexes for various types of roles.  Females can lead and have led throughout our history, but it does not make them any less female.

Quote from: Donna E on September 25, 2014, 06:02:21 AMFor example replacing a penis with a vagina makes you sterile, requires HRT all of your life afterwards, pretty obviously limits your options in terms of the types of sexual relationships you will be able to get into in the future  and raises all sorts of other practical issues that have already been mentioned anytime you have to undress in a public space. Again, we are down to what words actually mean and replacing male genitals with female genitals does not sound to me like   a non-binary choice, it sounds like quite an extreme binary choice.

I am non-binary and I am pursuing a FTM transition. I plan to get top surgery, hysterectomy (keeping ovaries in so I can go off T later) and metoidioplasty, except I am opting against scrotoplasty (basically, no scrotum or testicle implants, just the vagina surgically closed up.) I desire this surgery because I wish to look as close to a sexless body as possible. Basically, the appearance of someone who is nullo (short for nullified - neither gender) or eunuch (castrated male).

Thankfully, I do not have to worry about sexual or romantic relationships as I am asexual and struggle to experience sexual attraction to others. I am incapable of experiencing romantic attraction but that doesn't stop me from feeling like a hopeless romantic and having daydreams of one day, experiencing love in its raw form for the first time... A romantic relationship would be more important to me than one that is physical, of course, I am willing to compromise with my partner, should I ever meet one.

Quote from: Donna E on September 25, 2014, 06:02:21 AM
As it happens I am married to a woman who would describe herself as gender fluid, at least partially explaining why she was very accepting about my transition. However, she herself feels absolutely no need/desire to change anything about her body and never has. In her mind, the body is pretty neutral and since this is the case, she sees no reason to change it from what it is to something else. Just in terms of logic, this makes more sense to me than someone who defines themselves as non-binary nevertheless wishing to undergo seriously life changing genital surgery.

That is completely understandable. I have a friend who identifies as genderfluid, he does not feel the need to change his body either, he is fairly happy with his body. A lot of people seem to be really confused when I tell them I am non-binary and that I am pursuing FTM transition, they seem to think, "Well, if you're non-binary, why don't you just stay the way you are?" I would, if I was comfortable with my body. Female breasts and vagina have caused me intense distress and body dysphoria from the moment puberty began and I was thrust into womanhood/motherhood without any say in the matter. Being sterile is not an issue for me, as I have absolutely no interest in having biological children and the mere thought of pregnancy has given me several re-occurring nightmares that have been ingrained into my mind since.

This does scream FTM experience, no? Well, I wouldn't blame you. Only that I don't identify as either male or female. I thought wanting to remove my female parts meant that I desired to become a man... I was mistaken, by removing my genitals, I wanted to become sexless.

Quote from: Donna E on September 25, 2014, 06:02:21 AM
Having said all of that, this post should be considered an open question as, given the amount of space the subject has occupied over the last couple of weeks, I really am trying to understand where the NB's are coming from on this question.

Thank you for putting this open question out there, I am happy that you are opening up discussion and trying to understand - I hope my post helps, even if it's just a little!

Quote from: Samantha007 on September 25, 2014, 08:44:04 AM
This is a very sticky topic as in an ideal world, people should be allowed to do whetever they want with their bodies. Unfortunately, as we have seen on here time and time again, there are people who do regret SRS. All of them -I'm assuming- had completed their RLE prior to the surgery. My guess would be if we don't impose RLE as a prerequisite before srs then the number of "regretters" would dramatically increase.

i have heard stories about regretters. people who chose the commonly accepted binary path from rle, through hrt, to srs. many have regretted srs, but i often think that the reason they got it in the first place might have been that their trans community and doctors have pushed them towards it, never letting them properly contemplate the option of living fully and wholly as themselves, without needing to make more changes to their body than they need.
there are many i know of, who would never have chosen srs if only they could have changed their legal gender without it.
i find the insistence on binarism potentially harmful, and think that if less weight were put on the whole hrt-ft-srs procedure, less trans individuals would choose something that they actually don't really need.

Quote from: Samantha007 on September 25, 2014, 08:44:04 AM
I understand that non-binary people don't wish to present as female, but in this case it would be unfair to impose RLE only on people who woud like the full biological and surgical transition into female. Also, what criteria would we have to establish the suitability of srs for people who only wish to have it without wanting to present as female. What pre-taste would they have of what their future life would be like? I think there are some very pertinent questions to be asked to make sure people don't take this irreversible step in their life.

the criteria could be one year of living full-time as themselves, with frequent conversations with their therapist to control that the experienced need to change one's body persists over time, and and that this is not something they are doing for other reasons than an experienced strong need to change their body. controlling for curable mental conditions that could cause similar feelings, would also be a part of the process. when you can say a person is generally sane, apart from the oddly shaped body map, and able to understand the possible consequences and complications, there really isn't much reason to deny a person access to body changing surgery.

i don't want to say life changing here, because for many, the way they live would not be affected by the surgery. only their ability to identify with their own body would be affected, and possibly their relationship with an so. the ability to find a (new) partner would not be affected too much, there's always someone out there who'd be interested even in a non-typical male or female body, as long as the person is right.

Donna, are You implying that we all are in some sort non-binary because we transgress the boundaries between genders? Last time I was trying to open discussion in MTF subforum... let's say, it was not very well received to put it mildly. I was quite amazed how much people insisted on their 100% femininity and suspected that my post was somehow triggering to them. Also, previously I had a short clash with FtM member who insisted on being 100% masculine with absolutely no female traits whatsoever. Initially, I thought that the person was simply ignorant and insecure, but there were others who reported having similar feelings (both FtMs and MtFs) and I started to suspect that it was me who was the "black sheep". So, when I read this one, it made total sense:
"Androgynes are not typically crossdressers, however they may use some clothes of either sex to communicate their mixed-gender status.  While androgynes may express more femininity or masculinity from day to day due to mood or societal expectations, they generally don't switch between distinct masculine and feminine personas in the way that bigenders do.
Some androgynes are comfortable with their natural body, but some may wish to change it with hormones, surgery, or other technological means just as transsexual people do. Some androgynes may proceed with transsexual transition and most happily live with their new body, although a few may regret it later, and not all who transition choose to adopt all characteristics of their new social gender role.In terms of social gender roles, most androgynes feel various degrees of discomfort with the social expectations of the gender binary. Androgynes usually want to have a social role which reflects their combination of femininity and masculinity."
It makes a lot of sense, though it could also describe a tomboyish MtF. Maybe. Maybe not. Or perhaps trans-binaries are simply in denial of their non-binary traits?

Quote from: Deinewelt on September 25, 2014, 08:32:24 AM
Can I ask, is this possible in the U.S.  I desperately want an orchi without having to wait a year.  My reasoning is that I want to get rid of the testosterone without having to block it and create that conflict within my own body.  I've done extensive research on the subject and know that is what I want to do for sure, and it is not at all related to some auto mutilation thing.

I more than likely could've had the orchi done where I did at any time. I had it done by an oncologist at a hospital in a nearby city. He didn't require a letter from a therapist (but I could have got one from him with no issues). I just had to sign some papers saying that I understood what was being done and waiving any rights to sue afterwards. (Which I had absolutely no intention of doing anyway)

He did bring up the issue of the testicles being "healthy tissues". But once I explained that: 1. I was doing this instead of GRS. 2. I didn't want to be on Spiro for the rest of my life. and 3. There was the potential for long term Spiro use to cause damage to the kidneys. (Even though I had not had any issues at that point with Spiro and my kidneys. But I didn't want to tempt fate.) He got where I was coming from.

I'm glad that I had the orchi done and I have zero regrets about it.

i think the first thing is to define what gives a peson their gender. its such a complicated thing and it seems that its becoming blured. if a person say had hrt and srs but then didnt present as totally female does that make them any less female than a transgender who presents completly female and doesnt have srs.i do think that there should be the core desire to be female but that can be so diverse as well. if its too easy it will make a mess of the system. there should be the same hoops to jump through but i guess there has to be allowances for a trans woman who has genuin body disphoria but maybe cant cope with full presentation change.to me they are on the same level as a trans man who doesn want to loose his vagina, bt i will add that trans men go through a lot more to get to that level. it would be interesting to see the proper numbers of those that have had such a thing and then regretted it. i have been on castration drugs for 7 months and part of that was to settle doubts in my mind.

Quote from: Laura Squirrel on September 25, 2014, 02:35:00 PM
I more than likely could've had the orchi done where I did at any time. I had it done by an oncologist at a hospital in a nearby city. He didn't require a letter from a therapist (but I could have got one from him with no issues). I just had to sign some papers saying that I understood what was being done and waiving any rights to sue afterwards. (Which I had absolutely no intention of doing anyway)

He did bring up the issue of the testicles being "healthy tissues". But once I explained that: 1. I was doing this instead of GRS. 2. I didn't want to be on Spiro for the rest of my life. and 3. There was the potential for long term Spiro use to cause damage to the kidneys. (Even though I had not had any issues at that point with Spiro and my kidneys. But I didn't want to tempt fate.) He got where I was coming from.

I'm glad that I had the orchi done and I have zero regrets about it.

Thank you for your post!  This could very well be helpful to me.

dear jody. i would still like to talk about the reality of a predominantly cis man wanting a vagina.

we have already established on these forums that a woman is a woman because of a strong sense identification with the female gender. and like with cis women, trans women also come in all different flavors. tomboy is just as normal as girly girl, and for some there is a need to crossdress as a man, for any number of reasons.

a man is still a man though. there are some very real cases where a man has bo interest at all in living his life as a woman. he doesn't want breasts, a higher voice, smoother skin, or any other female secondary sex characteristics. not the tertiary either, these men don't want to walk around in female clothes even inside their own house.

but there is still something in their brain telling them that they should have a vagina instead of a penis.
impossible to know if this is the same type of gender as a trans man who refuses to give uo his vagina, it hasn't been studied properly yet because most people don't seem very willing to even consider the existence of this type of man. instead it seems that everybody wants to place the natal men in the female box as soon as they start wanting a vagina, forcing them to do both hrt and rle without even thinking about how damaging this could be to a man who only wanted to get his vagine fixed.

the story i have read about a man who sorely needed a vagina, is the story of a man witj just as much body dysphoria as any trans person. it is also a story about not finding validation anywhere, to be believed on his body dysphoria, he would habe to pretend to be a woman. this experience would resonnate with many non-binary people, who often have to pretend they are someone else in order to get the medical treatment that they need just as much as any trans man or woman needs it.

that man's story continued, not with regretting srs, but with regretting hrt and the effects of it, and going back on male hormones and removing breast, so that he could live happily as a man with a vagina. my own story of non-binary transition is still not starting, because i don't want to pretend just to transition. i want to be true, to be believed by medical professionals, and to do something good for the trans community by going throufh a transition that i will not regret.

Quote from: Taka on September 26, 2014, 01:10:12 AM
i would still like to talk about the reality of a predominantly cis man wanting a vagina.

Don't jump me please as this is just a quick comment.

If some of us here can't understand this with open minds like we have it will be impossible for a therapist or other provider who has been trained in absolutes to even comprehend this. I really don't know HOW you would get through to them with all the time in the world. Your fight will be with the established medical community and not us. Even though it is not what we want personally we support people who fit this description as we understand Dysphoria. I have no idea if this makes sense or not.  :-\ More tired than I thought, but I did have some idea what I wanted to say, I think, er maybe. Ugh, never mind. Dingy blonde headed to bed.  :-\

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 26, 2014, 01:56:42 AM
If some of us here can't understand this with open minds like we have it will be impossible for a therapist or other provider who has been trained in absolutes to even comprehend this.

I'm definitely not jumping on you with this, but I want to explore this. I don't think that just because the people here are trans means they have open minds. Its easy to believe that you have, because you understand something most people don't, but I think that's an illusion. Similarly, and nothing to do with his thread, but I've seen some pretty intolerant comments here (often quickly deleted, presumably by moderators). You'd expect more of people who are themselves the targets of intolerance, but no. We're just people, with all the same failings as everyone else.

Personally, and speaking from a binary point of view, I'm not sure I can understand understand non-binary. I think its perfectly acceptable and I'll support it, but I'm not sure I'll ever really relate to it. I like to think I have an open mind, but I suppose I don't know.

Quote from: AnonyMs on September 26, 2014, 03:01:32 AM
I'm definitely not jumping on you with this, but I want to explore this. I don't think that just because the people here are trans means they have open minds. Its easy to believe that you have, because you understand something most people don't, but I think that's an illusion. Similarly, and nothing to do with his thread, but I've seen some pretty intolerant comments here (often quickly deleted, presumably by moderators). You'd expect more of people who are themselves the targets of intolerance, but no. We're just people, with all the same failings as everyone else.

Personally, and speaking from a binary point of view, I'm not sure I can understand understand non-binary. I think its perfectly acceptable and I'll support it, but I'm not sure I'll ever really relate to it. I like to think I have an open mind, but I suppose I don't know.

Well put! The fact that we are "trans" often is the only common feature and it does not mean that we automatically should like each other. It is the same as with any other feature which puts one group apart - like do all black, asian, gay or aliens like each other? Sure not! :)
As for understanding and acceptance, You know, I consider myself NB but totally do not understand many types of non-binaries - I was trying to feel what their perception and inner world might be and.. just failed. I can comprehend single identity NB, but when there are several identities with different features (fluid or not), then I feel totally lost :). Does not mean that I am not accepting them, just I will never know how they feel.

In my case, I argued against RLE for a number of reasons, including that I lived in a country at the time where it would have been dangerous not to be 100% passable all the time (which I am not, nor do I desire to be), and also that I was in fact living RLE socially in ambiguous female clothes. Ie a skirt and pancake makeup is not my style, and these are not the determining facets of the female experience in any case. Effectively I was arguing that I would retain my legal name and not wear totally femme clothing yet have HRT and SRS. I had the surgery and was much happier for it, even though outwardly in my presentation day to day nothing much changed. Since then, I've moved to a country where being out is not a thing, so I've been able to transition more fully. Still no skirts or heels; that just isn't me. RLE the way some people want it done would have been tremendously damaging, mentally and indeed, possibly physically.   

Short answer: Provided you've been evaluated by a mental health professional and determined to be of sound mind, then YES! Your body, your reasons, your circumstances = your decision.

GendrKweer, do you feel any pressure from the trans community to hide what you've done? I wondering if its so rare, or people are hiding?

AnonyMs, well, I don't participate in a trans-community (except this site)... Since moving to a really open country and community, all of my friends and contacts know me as female and accept me as such without hesitation, even though I still prefer my jeans and converse and flannel shirts to heels and skirts. My community here is very open-minded, some gay and lesbian friends and hangouts but mostly straight females (although I've cured one or two of them of that;) I think if I were 100% passable, I might do things a little differently, but given my limitations, I play to my strengths and work the gray area with confidence, dignity and self-respect. As such, if there was any pressure, I wouldn't notice, and I certainly wouldn't care. Nor should anyone else.  :laugh:

It's troublesome trying to put yourself inside someone's head. Trying to understand their reasons and emotional driving force for wanting what they want. I have found you can't really do that with any degree of efficacy because you don't feel the way they feel. No matter who you are. There is a depth of self-knowledge that even the deepest probing cannot touch.

I can know what you know, but I cannot feel what you feel.

However, I have found, in my limited experience, that you don't have to understand why someone wants what they want. Why someone is who they are. You just have to respect that they understand themselves well enough, and are clear-minded enough to ascertain their own wants and needs. And, if that proves to be the case, then I would not presume to know what's better for someone than they know themselves.

Quote from: Sephirah on September 26, 2014, 01:41:20 PM
It's troublesome trying to put yourself inside someone's head. Trying to understand their reasons and emotional driving force for wanting what they want. I have found you can't really do that with any degree of efficacy because you don't feel the way they feel. No matter who you are. There is a depth of self-knowledge that even the deepest probing cannot touch.

I can know what you know, but I cannot feel what you feel.

However, I have found, in my limited experience, that you don't have to understand why someone wants what they want. Why someone is who they are. You just have to respect that they understand themselves well enough, and are clear-minded enough to ascertain their own wants and needs. And, if that proves to be the case, then I would not presume to know what's better for someone than they know themselves.

As is almost always the case, I agree entirely with what you have to say Sephirah and I think most other people would too. Also, to the extent that people assume full responsability for their acts, including paying themselves both for their surgeries and the eventual fall out should things go topwise, it is hard to find any reason not to allow people do much as they want with their bodies. That being said, in the country I live in, France, mutilation is a criminal offense and most, if not all doctors, would steer very clear of doing any "transformative" surgery that was not clearly deemed a medical necessity. Even if you signed a waiver, the law always takes precedence over contract so, no matter what is written in the contract, a doctor could still be sued for malpractise by the Medical Order, the public prosecutor or others...

Furthermore, if any form of public financing is sought for eventual transformative surgeries (social security and/or private insurance companies) realistically there is absolutely no way that such financing will be forthcoming without demonstrating the need for the desired surgery. For many "classic" MTF's this is already quite a complicated process and for the less classic cases I can see how it would be a challenge for the "system".

End of the day, in practise, unless you do everything solo (pretty much what I did myself as it happens but I still needed my two letters for my GRS), you are always going to be confronted with some sort of approval process which will require convincing others that what you are asking for is needed and will actually improve your situation.

Given the need for rules in any society, I personally don't find much to object to about in that.
Hugs
Donna

Quote from: Donna E on September 26, 2014, 02:31:05 PM
As is almost always the case, I agree entirely with what you have to say Sephirah and I think most other people would too. Also, to the extent that people assume full responsability for their acts, including paying themselves both for their surgeries and the eventual fall out should things go topwise, it is hard to find any reason not to allow people do much as they want with their bodies. That being said, in the country I live in, France, mutilation is a criminal offense and most, if not all doctors, would steer very clear of doing any "transformative" surgery that was not clearly deemed a medical necessity. Even if you signed a waiver, the law always takes precedence over contract so, no matter what is written in the contract, a doctor could still be sued for malpractise by the Medical Order, the public prosecutor or others...

Furthermore, if any form of public financing is sought for eventual transformative surgeries (social security and/or private insurance companies) realistically there is absolutely no way that such financing will be forthcoming without demonstrating the need for the desired surgery. For many "classic" MTF's this is already quite a complicated process and for the less classic cases I can see how it would be a challenge for the "system".

End of the day, in practise, unless you do everything solo (pretty much what I did myself as it happens but I still needed my two letters for my GRS), you are always going to be confronted with some sort of approval process which will require convincing others that what you are asking for is needed and will actually improve your situation.

Given the need for rules in any society, I personally don't find much to object to about that.
Hugs
Donna

Donna, I can understand what you're saying. And how it might be difficult for people who give the green light for, and perform surgery, to understand that for some people the two things aren't necessarily linked.

There is an overwhelming assumption that one wants SRS as a step in the process of presenting as female. That one is entwined in the other. No doubt because most, if not all people who a given medical professional deals with on a daily basis are very much set on that exact course of action. And honestly, more power to those people. I very much get where they're coming from. It's a package deal. Based on their own self-identity and how they want to live their lives.

Nevertheless, that mindset is there, I have no doubt of that. But speaking as someone whose dysphoria is almost entirely physical, and for whom the idea of presenting female is... hmm... how to word this... it is something which is a different aspect of self-image. Not something which is dictated by the anatomical dysphoria itself. It's hard to explain, and I don't think I did a very good job... anyhow, because of that, I don't think it necessarily has to be that way for everyone. And I think that there could be an argument for SRS improving the standard of life for someone who wants their physical form to match their own anatomical self-image quite outside the realm of wholly presenting female. I think that physical dysphoria, sometimes, can be so strong that however someone wants to present... having the anatomy to match their own internal self-image can substantially improve their quality of life and mental state without the assumed presentation needing to actually play a part.

And in that case, is it mutilation? I'm not so sure. You're right, though. Convincing people who are responsible for facilitating and performing surgery might be difficult. But again, I think that comes back to the trouble with trying to get inside someone's head and needing to understand the "why", rather than accepting that the person in question understands the "why" for themselves, and accepting that even if you don't get it... they do, and they believe their lives will be better because of it.

Maybe it comes down to re-classifying what constitutes "need", and de-coupling anatomical correction based on purely physical dysphoria from presentation based on that anatomy. My hope is that more work will be done in that area over the coming years, as more and more people come forward for whom the two don't readily go hand in hand. And I hope that the attitude will become more "Okay, you want this because it will, in your view, make your life better and it will make your sense of self congruent with your anatomy. You know what it entails -  the risks, the aftercare, the societal implications and how it will change things for you. You've understood all that, and still believe it is something which will allow you to function better as a person, in your own life, free from the mental anguish and impairment to your standard of life caused by this physical disparity... okay, then I trust that it's best for you."

a long post that was deleted because cell phones arw dumb, but currently my only means of communication.

mainly stating agreement with sephirah, and approval of jessica's post (you seem to be doing better, i'm glad).

the rest will be added later if it still seems relevant on monday.

be nice to each others, stay on topic, keep choosing your words wisely when expressing personal opinion or disagreement. i don't want this thread locked before i can consider whether or not to follow that though from my lost post.

Quote from: suzifrommd on September 22, 2014, 01:25:53 PM
With increasing frequency, we've been seeing forum members speak of a need for gender surgery without socially transitioning. E.g. living post-op as a male with a vagina. They're looking for a way to do this.

The reasoning is usually something like this:
* They have body dysphoria but not social dysphoria.
* Lots of men live perfectly happy lives with vaginas. We have dozens of them posting on our FtM forum.
* Going through an RLE requires needless effort on their part and an uncomfortable year and is not helpful in decided how they want their body shaped.
* The WPATH requirement for RLE is a "guideline" and not a "rule".

Most of the time they are actively discouraged from doing this, often by the site staff. Their reasoning:
* RLE is a good idea because doctors require it.
* This is a huge step, and it's not unreasonable to require a patient to spend a year thinking about it.
* If you're not ready to live as a woman, you're probably not ready for SRS either.

What do you think? Should someone be allowed SRS who is not planning to present as a female?

Since you, the OP, has asked for opinions, I am going to give you my opinion.

I think people who want a vagina, and are not planning to present as females should not be allowed to get SRS because, in my opinion, such a position indicates and underlying mental condition that needs to be resolved first, least they find themselves regretting later on

As someone who is totally binary and has been living full time as a woman for the last six years, my need, and I say "need" because that's exactly what it is for me, my need for SRS is overwhelming to say the least. Currently my quality of life suffers greatly and my genital dysphoria is so crippling I doubt I can last another year on this earth without having my surgery. I'm not strong enough emotionally to cope much longer with my body's bottom parts being so freakishly wrong. So I understand dysphoria very well as I live with it rearing its ugly head every time I use the rest room or take a bath or shower. I feel like freak of nature, a disturbing biological experiment that went so horribly wrong in all the worse possible ways -it's hard to put how disgusted and abhorred, admonished, and repulsed I feel about my own body's bottom private parts into words.

Having said all that, while I may never understand non binaries fully, I do respect them and call many my friends, many here on this forum, and if their quality of life is suffering because they feel even half as horrified as I do about my genitals being so so very wrong I see no reason to deny these individuals the surgery they so much need to improve their quality of life. And I too have a friend who has had the surgery and is regretting it but not because they no longer have a penis, but because of the maintenance required post-op.

Those of you who know me know I strongly disagree with gatekeeping in any form. I believe that most individuals seeking SRS truly do need the surgery not just to improve their quality of life, but for their own well being as well, and adding further restrictions or more hoops to jump through to get what for many, myself included, will be a life saving surgery is just morally and ethically wrong of the highest order. Be they binary or non binary the reasons for needing SRS are the same IMHO.

Just my $.02 peep's so don't prosecute, lol! :rolleyes:

Peace Everyone. :icon_bunch:

Ally :icon_flower:

Quote from: Allyda on September 26, 2014, 09:01:21 PM
Those of you who know me know I strongly disagree with gatekeeping in any form. I believe that most individuals seeking SRS truly do need the surgery not just to improve their quality of life, but for their own well being as well, and adding further restrictions or more hoops to jump through to get what for many, myself included, will be a life saving surgery is just morally and ethically wrong of the highest order.

The only problem I see is without some form of therapy or evaluation how many will get it for the wrong reason such as a fetish or temporary passing fancy and be stuck with regret and anger? I DO NOT believe in gate keeping, but I do think a proper evaluation should be made to determine if it really is in the best interest of the patient. If it is found to be appropriate go ahead.  Please don't yell at me. I have had the worse day you can imagine. Just had to ask this.  :(

Hope you feel better Jessica!  I think this is just a really complex subject where there is really no right or wrong answer.  From my perspective, I would get SRS and live as a woman most of the time and just present at work as a guy for the benefit of not having to lose my job.  I definitely think, why would you want to present as a male after SRS?  Is that because it is how you wish to present or due to overwhelming social pressures?  My stance is that I will probably go full time at some point, maybe in a year?  The reasoning is that, I want to hold my head up high and just be myself.  Why should I fold when it only reinforces these false prisons and harms other individuals who are like me?

I'm torn on this. My point of view is that you should be able to do whatever you want with your body. However, I would be concerned about regret. It could lead insurance companies to be far less likely to cover these procedures, harming many of us, and it would be eaten up by the media, which already attempts to paint us as mentally unstable. You don't want to give more fodder to insurance companies and the media.

Quote* Lots of men live perfectly happy lives with vaginas. We have dozens of them posting on our FtM forum.

I have to disagree with this. There are some of us who don't care about what's in our pants, true, but in my experience, the majority of FtMs who don't want bottom surgery are just concerned about the risks or unhappy with the current outcomes. I think you would be hard-pressed to find more than a few FtMs who wouldn't want "typical" male anatomy if it were as simple as pressing a button.

Hi peky, while respecting your right to your opinion, I'd like to slightly modify it to express how I read it

Quote from: peky on September 26, 2014, 05:43:00 PM
I think people who want a vagina, and are not planning to present as females should not be allowed to get SRS because, in my opinion, such a position indicates and underlying mental condition that needs to be resolved first, least they find themselves regretting later on

I think men to want to become women should not be allowed to because, in my opinion, such a position indicates and underlying mental condition that needs to be resolved first, least they find themselves regretting later on

Quote from: GendrKweer on September 26, 2014, 04:52:26 AM
AnonyMs, well, I don't participate in a trans-community (except this site)... Since moving to a really open country and community, all of my friends and contacts know me as female and accept me as such without hesitation, even though I still prefer my jeans and converse and flannel shirts to heels and skirts. My community here is very open-minded, some gay and lesbian friends and hangouts but mostly straight females (although I've cured one or two of them of that;) I think if I were 100% passable, I might do things a little differently, but given my limitations, I play to my strengths and work the gray area with confidence, dignity and self-respect. As such, if there was any pressure, I wouldn't notice, and I certainly wouldn't care. Nor should anyone else.  :laugh:

That's a great attitude to life. I could do with more of it myself. I'm usually very resistant to outside pressure, but being trans is getting me down.

Quote from: AnonyMs on September 26, 2014, 10:28:52 PM
I think men to want to become women should not be allowed to because, in my opinion, such a position indicates and underlying mental condition that needs to be resolved first, least they find themselves regretting later on

First, that is not what Peky said. She said if people want a vagina and DO NOT WANT to present female there should be an evaluation just like for MtFs for any possible underlying condition to resolve first. MtFs go through intense psychological therapy AND have to PROVE they can live as a female successfully before approval is given. What you said could offend many MtFs here who meet current criteria and follow all published rules and therapy related to transition.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 26, 2014, 11:36:07 PM
First, that is not what Peky said. She said if people want a vagina and DO NOT WANT to present female there should be an evaluation just like for MtFs for any possible underlying condition to resolve first. MtFs go through intense psychological therapy AND have to PROVE they can live as a female successfully before approval is given. What you said could offend many MtFs here who meet current criteria and follow all published rules and therapy related to transition.

Hi Jessica, I know that's not what peky said. I quoted exactly what perky said and put my reinterpretation below it. I suspect you got upset and didn't read it the way I intended. Could you please read it again.

What I wrote is offensive, and that was my point. I only changed a few words, so how is it offensive now and not before? From a non-binary perspective if that helps.

    people who want a vagina and are not planing to present as females => men who want to become women

I should also add that I'm not offended by what peky said, but I do disagree with it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Its how we act on it that matters to me.

And just to be clear its not actually my opinion either. I'd hope its nobodies opinion on these forums, although I suspect its close to 100% of everyone outside these forums.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 26, 2014, 11:36:07 PM
MtFs go through intense psychological therapy AND have to PROVE they can live as a female successfully before approval is given. What you said could offend many MtFs here who meet current criteria and follow all published rules and therapy related to transition.

And then again, there will many MtFs who wont be offended, so what could we do? Just refrain from posting and become defensive and start apologising even before somethjng has happened simply because the topic is controversial and we unfortunately happened to have different views? That does not sound very constructive, does it?

Quote from: AnonyMs on September 27, 2014, 01:16:34 AM
people who want a vagina and are not planing to present as females => men who want to become women

OK. I understand now what your are trying to say and have no objection to that statement. People can read things wrong and it is not my intent to provoke any hostilities. It was a misread on my part, nothing sinister. I just interpreted it wrong and now I get it. See, nothing meant.

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on September 27, 2014, 01:29:46 AM
And then again, there will many MtFs who wont be offended, so what could we do? Just refrain from posting and become defensive and start apologising even before somethjng has happened simply because the topic is controversial and we unfortunately happened to have different views? That does not sound very constructive, does it?

Emily I am trying very hard to understand your feelings. It is very confusing so please cut me a little slack here. At least I am trying to learn and have come along fairly well now from earlier replies.

I still say that it is plain wrong to shackle a consenting person's body-decisions just because you or I don't understand their rationale. How is it different from the abortion debate? Excluding the religious aspect of it, that also is one person or group telling another they don't know what's best for themselves, or understand themselves as well as the outside party understands them. I don't understand why a lot of people do a lot of things, including have children. But I would never dream of preventing them from doing so if they were of sound mind and it harmed no one else... I don't think this is akin to having a muddled thought or an extra few shots of vodka at the bar and stumbling into an SRS studio at the mall and waking up the next day going omg what have I done? Although I am well aware of fetish communities of all sorts, much like the self-amputators et al, there simply isn't such a huge number of people who both do all the legwork (in terms of financially, or the 6 month waiting period, or the HRT) to get to the SRS surgeon's operating table AND who have a pure fetishistic desire for the operation (incidentally, HRT turns off the testosterone, eliminating a lot of that IMHO, and thus probably dropping a lot of people out of the program.). BUT even if it is purely a fetish, and there might be buyers' remorse down the line, it is NOT my place to prevent another consenting adult to not choose SRS as an elective surgery, any more than I should tell a woman to not get an abortion, or another woman to not have a child, or tell a man to not get a vasectomy, because I know better than they do...  With all due respect, how can this even be a debate?

I believe someone should be allowed SRS even if they do not identify as a female.

I have witnessed many men on the internet who had nullification surgery (removal of penis and testicles) and they are sane, level-headed individuals who have never been happier - there are many pictures of them, all retaining their male identity (beards, muscles, hairy and physically fit bodies) quite proudly just they do not have male genitals anymore. I have also seen a man who had nullification surgery but also had their flat scrotum modified to look like a vagina. Again, this man still identifies proudly as a man, just one with a vagina.

I have also seen people who will treat it as a fetish and I cannot understand the appeal behind that (it is not my business what people do with their bodies anyhow). If someone wants to remove their genitals or modify them into a different set of genitals because of intense body dysphoria, then by all means, I think they should go and do it. But... people removing their genitals as a fetish, fulfilling a fantasy, or removing them as the ultimate statement to their Master that they are forever theirs... I do not understand that. Relationships do not last forever, fantasies and (some) fetishes can change over time, I think it is extreme in this situation to remove or modify one's genitals on the basis of a fantasy, fetish or for their partner/Master. I think if someone wants to remove or modify their genitals, it should be for themselves and to improve their quality of life, something that will elevate their pain and ultimately give them a happier outlook on life.

I am aware that Buck Angel was born biologically female and transitioned to male. He had his reasons for not getting bottom surgery and he proudly calls himself a man, just a man with a (offensive word for vagina). He has said, "I don't need a penis to feel like a dude."

Is a man with a vagina still a man? Buck is quick to share his perspective on that.

"What is a man? If a man loses his genitals in say a car accident, are you not a man anymore? Of course you are. Being a man is more about what's in your head than what your body looks like." Quote taken from the article, Buck Angel: Self Made Man

Genitals do not define you as a man or a woman. Are pre-op transmen women if they enjoy using their vagina? Are pre-op transwomen men if they enjoy using their penis? No, they are still men and women because their gender identity (in their brain, heart and soul) is intact. Just as a man who has no genitals is still a man, a man with a vagina is still a man.

I agree that if someone wants SRS, that they should go through a psychological evaluation, just like anyone else who is seeking SRS/transitioning and to eliminate the chances of regret. But I do not agree that they should undergo psychological evaluation under the assumption that they will be denied SRS outright because they must have a underlying mental condition that is causing them to think this way. I do not think that is healthy and I am sure individuals have already gone through enough strife that they do not need to be treated like they are mentally disturbed or insane by health professionals just because their body map or gender identity is not within the norm that is the binary.

Quote from: GendrKweer on September 27, 2014, 04:03:07 AMWith all due respect, how can this even be a debate?

This.

Too many people, even in the trans community, are assigning gender roles and presentation to genitals, just as its done in the cis world. Funny as hell if you ask me...

The essentialist narrative of binary thinking is hard to let go of. Pushback is happening though but change will take time.

Quote from: GendrKweer on September 27, 2014, 04:03:07 AM
I still say that it is plain wrong to shackle a consenting person's body-decisions just because you or I don't understand their rationale. How is it different from the abortion debate? Excluding the religious aspect of it, that also is one person or group telling another they don't know what's best for themselves, or understand themselves as well as the outside party understands them. I don't understand why a lot of people do a lot of things, including have children. But I would never dream of preventing them from doing so if they were of sound mind and it harmed no one else... I don't think this is akin to having a muddled thought or an extra few shots of vodka at the bar and stumbling into an SRS studio at the mall and waking up the next day going omg what have I done? Although I am well aware of fetish communities of all sorts, much like the self-amputators et al, there simply isn't such a huge number of people who both do all the legwork (in terms of financially, or the 6 month waiting period, or the HRT) to get to the SRS surgeon's operating table AND who have a pure fetishistic desire for the operation (incidentally, HRT turns off the testosterone, eliminating a lot of that IMHO, and thus probably dropping a lot of people out of the program.). BUT even if it is purely a fetish, and there might be buyers' remorse down the line, it is NOT my place to prevent another consenting adult to not choose SRS as an elective surgery, any more than I should tell a woman to not get an abortion, or another woman to not have a child, or tell a man to not get a vasectomy, because I know better than they do...  With all due respect, how can this even be a debate?

Just FYI, not weighing in on the discussion. The points I bolded are things that people have issue with as gatekeeping. Not that people shouldn't generally be of sound mind, but that they shouldn't be tested for it.

I have no opinion on the issue, just wanted to point out how things can creep in that look like gatekeeping to others.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 27, 2014, 07:24:47 AM
The essentialist narrative of binary thinking is hard to let go of. Pushback is happening though but change will take time.

Decades if not longer. Very few people mature to the point of letting go of even basic black and white thinking. To get to this level may not be possible for most people.

Quote from: Dee Walker on September 27, 2014, 07:59:56 AM
Just FYI, not weighing in on the discussion. The points I bolded are things that people have issue with as gatekeeping. Not that people shouldn't generally be of sound mind, but that they shouldn't be tested for it.

I have no opinion on the issue, just wanted to point out how things can creep in that look like gatekeeping to others.

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. Being of sound mind is a legal term to protect the doctor as much as the patient. It is necessary for most legal documents, such as wills, to be considered valid and consensual. So I'm not gatekeeping the surgery, but rather protecting the doctor from a lawsuit. The waiting period I cite was only based on my personal experience with going to a good SRS surgeon. Most cannot book a surgery for next week once a patient contacts them; mine was over six months. HRT, yes, that I allow I mistyped. You're right, it should not be a requirement for this surgery. After all, there are those who might choose not to accept the medical (stroke) risks of HRT but still want the surgery.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 26, 2014, 09:28:00 PM
I DO NOT believe in gate keeping, but I do think a proper evaluation should be made to determine if it really is in the best interest of the patient. If it is found to be appropriate go ahead. 

I do not believe this comment I made is intolerant or asking too much of anyone. It seems though no matter how hard I am trying to understand your view points all you are interested in is nit picking everything I say instead of trying to meet me half way. You wonder why some binaries get upset, this is why. If you noticed anything you would see earlier I clearly indicated that this should apply to binary MtFs and FtMs as well, but I suppose it was more entertaining to find a statement somewhere that could be exploited. I for one have no further interest in trying to meet you half way. Good luck though in your pursuits for appropriate medical care that EVERYONE should have access to.

i have a quote on my desktop that goes   if i could have chosen to be male or female  i think i would simply have chosen to be happy. its such a complicated issue that to decide if a certain person should have srs or not does require rules, like them or not. i do read that some want a vagina but it seems like they are more curious than trans. some definatly have a dysphoria that doesnt include presenting as a woman which can be as bad as wanting full transformation. living as a man with a vagina could be as traumatic in the long run as presenting as a woman. the problems are great and some poor people are tasked with sorting it out.what makes one person happy as we know causes another one pain. i aslo think the docs can have a bit of tunnel vision they are cautious about stepping sideways its easier to just stay mainstream. you have to be tough to get through this process and if its not as it should be to confrunt the docs  but in a nice way.things change through knowlage and learning so untill the docs are more sure of their knowlage then its still a hard process. the current guidelines are not the best but untill they come up with new ones we are stuck with them. better to get the best you can out the system than go against it you may find you get more than you expected.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 27, 2014, 07:24:47 AM
The essentialist narrative of binary thinking is hard to let go of.

When faced with constant confrontation, Yes. So many binaries have tried to understand how NBs feel, but with the reverse intolerance of our opinion no longer feel like being a part of the dialog. So many have offered their view which was quickly shot down and labeled. Please reconsider your strategy. Demanding will not get as much cooperation as being open yourselves to others views just as you are demanding from us.  :)

Quote from: Jaime R D on September 27, 2014, 07:00:58 AM
Too many people, even in the trans community, are assigning gender roles and presentation to genitals, just as its done in the cis world. Funny as hell if you ask me...

I love this. Nails it imo.

I really can't and won't assign views on this as a binary, nonbiological woman. Its not my lane. I really think we need to consider that nonbinary includes many different representations and perspectives. I sure as heck wouldn't tell a neutrois-presenting individual that they shouldn't have top surgery to help with their dysphoria so I'm not going to argue about how their assigned genitalia should be representative of how they perceive their gender. Not for me to live with and therefore not for me to decide.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 27, 2014, 08:49:47 AM
I do not believe this comment I made is intolerant or asking too much of anyone. It seems though no matter how hard I am trying to understand your view points all you are interested in is nit picking everything I say instead of trying to meet me half way. You wonder why some binaries get upset, this is why. If you noticed anything you would see earlier I clearly indicated that this should apply to binary MtFs and FtMs as well, but I suppose it was more entertaining to find a statement somewhere that could be exploited. I for one have no further interest in trying to meet you half way. Good luck though in your pursuits for appropriate medical care that EVERYONE should have access to.

Jessica, I don't know whose comment this is directed at but I was not picking on your comments in particular. I do not think your comment is at all intolerant and I am not sure where you got this impression that it is...? I had seen another member mention that individuals often get treated like freaks of nature by others and I was following up my post in response to them.

I have had many horrible experiences with therapists and psychiatrists who would refuse to respect my gender identity and they would go as far as trying to convince me that I am not male, that I am silly little girl who is just delusional and having fantasies about being male. I do not want anyone else, MtF, FtM, intersex, non-binary, cisgender or otherwise to go through what I had experienced. It was awful and I am happy that I have met the psychiatrist I am currently with today, he has been accepting and kind to me for the last four years and many years to come...

How come you are bringing up the binary vs. non-binary...? It is irrelevant to the discussion, is it not...?  ??? Nobody is finding entertainment in nitpicking your responses, I can see that there are people contributing their views to the topic as I am, just like everyone else is allowed to...?

It is not about you, dear Jessica. Please do not take people's views as a personal attack on your identity. When I speak about binary, it is binary in the sense of the rules and what is considered the norm in society, I hope I did not give the impression I was talking about transgender binaries because that wasn't my intention at all.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 27, 2014, 08:59:46 AM
When faced with constant confrontation, Yes. So many binaries have tried to understand how NBs feel, but with the reverse intolerance of our opinion no longer feel like being a part of the dialog. So many have offered their view which was quickly shot down and labeled. Please reconsider your strategy. Demanding will not get as much cooperation as being open yourselves to others views just as you are demanding from us.  :)

What confrontation...? Reverse intolerance...? I do not see anyone's views getting shot down or labeled...?

People are allowed to disagree with one another, that doesn't necessarily mean the other person's view is being invalidated or that their view is of no worth. I do not think it is fair to say that as a group, non-binaries are being close-minded or being demanding.

Binary... non-binary... in the end, we are all humans, sharing similar struggles... I fail to see how reasserting us vs. them mentality is going to solve anything... I can sense you are frustrated and it is understandable. I do know how hard it can be to understand the diversity of non-binaries, I have trouble with this myself! For example, I cannot understand androgynes even though my gender expression is androgynous. Though they are similar, they are most definitely not the same as one is an identity, the other is gender expression.

Is this topic triggering you, Jessica? Please, be safe and remember your limits. *bear hugs* 

Quote from: EchelonHunt on September 27, 2014, 10:17:53 AM
People are allowed to disagree with one another, that doesn't necessarily mean the other person's view is being invalidated or that their view is of no worth. I do not think it is fair to say that as a group, non-binaries are being close-minded or being demanding.

The only problem with this is I accept their views or at least try to. Non binaries are flooding us with Mod reports complaining about me having an opinion. I am not doing that to them (reporting every post that conflicts with my ideas or values)) so it comes to mutual respect which I am not receiving in kind. 

I fail to see how reasserting us vs. them mentality is going to solve anything

I have no us versus them mentality at all. This is a respect issue for me and not about gender or genitals. I am trying to learn and see the opposition view on this topic while taking a large amount of negativity to my ideas and principles. I am trying to give a response based on my experiences in life which will not be like everyone else's, but in return I am being told I am a trouble maker. That is not two way dialog.   :)


Is this topic triggering you, Jessica? Please, be safe and remember your limits. *bear hugs*

I am very much in control of myself right now. That is not an issue. Lack of respect to my opinions is. I am only asking for the same courtesies all of you are, nothing else and that is simply to explore the topic.

PS-No Echelon it was not directed at you. I told you before we are OK and I mean it!  :icon_hug:

Please stop viewing everything I write as a direct attack against you... Trust me if I was attacking you it would be very very obvious. I am just stating that binary narratives colour the way we think about lots of things, be it gender or good and evil, humanity has some base need to divide the world into us and them and that way of thinking is very hard to let go of.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 27, 2014, 12:34:39 PM
Please stop viewing everything I write as a direct attack against you... Trust me if I was attacking you it would be very very obvious. I am just stating that binary narratives colour the way we think about lots of things, be it gender or good and evil, humanity has some base need to divide the world into us and them and that way of thinking is very hard to let go of.

I never said or indicated it was you either sweetie. A lot of what you say actually makes sense to me. I am the same way you are, you would definitely know. Feel better now?  :)

Yes, I know tensions have been running high recently and I guess some of that has mingled with the shadows that have been consuming me making me view situations in a way that doesn't reflect what has been happening.

Now, if there is no one else let's make a fresh start and get around to constructive dialog without the specter of the past haunting us. Sound good?  :) Good!

My name is Jessica and I view myself as a binary female not because of societal pressure, but because it is who I am and what I feel is genuine to me. I chose being binary and love every aspect of it. I admit to being woefully uneducated about non binaries views of themselves and the different aspects they hope to accomplish. It is a very foreign concept to me and I hope to learn what led non binaries to this conclusion about themselves.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 27, 2014, 12:53:47 PM
Now, if there is no one else let's make a fresh start and get around to constructive dialog without the specter of the past haunting us. Sound good?  :) Good!

My name is Jessica and I view myself as a binary female not because of societal pressure, but because it is who I am and what I feel is genuine to me. I chose being binary and love every aspect of it. I admit to being woefully uneducated about non binaries views of themselves and the different aspects they hope to accomplish. It is a very foreign concept to me and I hope to learn what led non binaries to this conclusion about themselves.

I posted something in the b/nb similarities thread that may help you get a better understanding. At least it might help feed the discussion  :D

Hi! I'm Stephanie, pre-op bi-trans mostly binary leaning MTF ( I think )

 :police:
Just asking that everyone respects that other people have a different point of view. If you disagree with something that someone says then educate don't attack. If you don't understand please be careful not to invalidate someone else's experience/feelings. Thank you :) :) :) :) :)

Frankly, I find this to be one of the most thought provoking threads yet regarding binary/non-binary issues.  I think that the question posed by OP is really a blanket question that could never be answered with a blanket answer.

There is one point that I believe was addressed concerning the fact that there are FTM who have not had SRS, which would result in a particular bodily state that could *possibly* be desirable to someone.  There is a parallel to this situation that I can plainly see to my own, which is,  I could never, with my own brain, understand why somebody would want to live as a man.  I think this might actually be a key here because we are all different, with our own personal internal gender that we identify with.  Because we all identify differently on this spectrum, it may be difficult for us to understand the position of another who desires to be in a different place on that spectrum.

If we reverse the question, should a female be allowed SRS who is not planning to present as male?  This would mean we have a woman who presents as a woman but, through the miracles of SRS, has a penis.  There are many MTF that want SRS and some who do not and actually want to keep their male genitalia.  It could be conceivable that a woman who was born with a vagina has a desire to be this specific way.  Should this be allowed?  I can't really allow myself to answer this question for somebody else. 

I myself definitely would want to get SRS and can admit that if I was to present as male, it would not be by choice but instead some horrible compromise in order to maintain a financial situation or something; however, I admit it is possible that somebody may completely feel like a man with a vagina on the inside and be unable to cope with having a penis instead.  Although possible, because I live on the female side of the spectrum, I don't believe I'm capable of understanding why!  If I could I would present female every day all the time and have SRS, but my guess is SRS is a long long way off for me.

Quote from: AnonyMs on September 26, 2014, 10:28:52 PM
Hi peky, while respecting your right to your opinion, I'd like to slightly modify it to express how I read it

I think men to want to become women should not be allowed to because, in my opinion, such a position indicates and underlying mental condition that needs to be resolved first, least they find themselves regretting later on

... and that is why we, MTF transsexuals, have to pass the gates of a psychiatric examination, the real life experience, hormone therapy, more psychiatric examinations before being granted permission to get SRS....

All these gates are set up the way they are because GID is considered a mental illness

 :police: I request we keep on track here and keep "Body integrity identity disorder" out of the discussion please.

Quote from: Ms Grace on September 27, 2014, 07:27:19 PM
:police: I request we keep on track here and keep "Body integrity identity disorder" out of the discussion please.

Sorry Ma'am... offending post removed !

A while after my family learned of my dysphoria something weird happened. One of my uncles who went a bit weird after a huge burnout (normal unless he skips his pills) suddenly decided he was transgender. Of course no one took him seriously and for him it is a good thing. But it illustrates a point. For therapists it is not gender dysphoria that troubles them, but the fear of allowing srs to someone WITH a serious mental illness (like my uncle). So they make it hard for all of us.

If someone's dysphoria is so that they want to be male with female parts then yes they should have it. It is not our place to judge. Though i would expect the medical profession to be really hesitant to do it. It would be a difficult fight .

Hmmmmn, I'm almost afraid to respond. But here goes:

I'm a Transgendered Intersexed woman who by way of my core identity, who I am, and who I've always been, am binary. I've been living full time as the girl/woman I've always been now for going on 6 years. Those of you who know me know that for me, having SRS is absolute as I have severe crippling genital dysphoria to the point that for me, SRS will be a life saving surgery.

Having said the above, should I be denied this lifesaving surgery just because I don't have a therapist? I have an Endo and other Doctors, but I live in a rural area of Florida and am unable to find a therapist within reasonable distance who will treat me. And I've made a sincere effort for over a year. Not because I need therapy mind you. I'm very secure in my femininity and know who I am. I've been looking for a therapist soley because I need a letter from one, to have the life saving surgery I so desperately need. Oh there are a few therapists around, either they don't treat trans patients or they don't take my insurance or they have zero experience with gender issues. But should I, a person who has lived full time for the last 6 years, who always presents as the woman she/I am be denied surgery simply because I'm not fotunate enough to live within reasonable distance of a therapist who will treat me?

As you can see, I clearly demonstrate an exception to the norm. My neighbors and friend have never doubted my femininity, in fact I'm seen as cis by most all of them. However my upcoming SRS may currently be in jeopardy because I need a letter from a therapist, a therapist I don't have. And as I've stated in my earlier response, I won't survive another year without this life saving surgery.

I only mention this very true representation of my current situation to make a point. There are circumstances for both we binary, and non binary individuals where the individual will suffer greatly if denied SRS for whatever reason. Blanket sets of rules cannot function unless exceptions are made where needed.

Peace everyone. :icon_bunch:

Ally :icon_flower:

Quote from: Allyda on September 28, 2014, 07:53:58 PM
But should I, a person who has lived full time for the last 6 years, who always presents as the woman she/I am be denied surgery simply because I'm not fotunate enough to live within reasonable distance of a therapist who will treat me?

No you should not be denied or anyone else. The only issue is most require the letters as it is now. Some day hopefully it will change. I feel like this: I hate speed limits on roadways, but unfortunately it is the law I comply or be fined. This is how WPATH has chosen to include in their protocol. It is not right, but it is the law or common practice.  :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 28, 2014, 08:00:48 PM
No you should not be denied or anyone else. The only issue is most require the letters as it is now. Some day hopefully it will change. I feel like this: I hate speed limits on roadways, but unfortunately it is the law I comply or be fined. This is how WPATH has chosen to include in their protocol. It is not right, but it is the law or common practice.  :)

My surgeon's office staff is trying to find me one that will see me virtually. So that will work hopefully. :) Wheels are in motion. They're just spinning in a rut right now. :D

Ally ;)

Quote from: suzifrommd on September 22, 2014, 01:25:53 PM
With increasing frequency, we've been seeing forum members speak of a need for gender surgery without socially transitioning. E.g. living post-op as a male with a vagina. They're looking for a way to do this.

The reasoning is usually something like this:
* They have body dysphoria but not social dysphoria.
* Lots of men live perfectly happy lives with vaginas. We have dozens of them posting on our FtM forum.
* Going through an RLE requires needless effort on their part and an uncomfortable year and is not helpful in decided how they want their body shaped.
* The WPATH requirement for RLE is a "guideline" and not a "rule".

Most of the time they are actively discouraged from doing this, often by the site staff. Their reasoning:
* RLE is a good idea because doctors require it.
* This is a huge step, and it's not unreasonable to require a patient to spend a year thinking about it.
* If you're not ready to live as a woman, you're probably not ready for SRS either.

What do you think? Should someone be allowed SRS who is not planning to present as a female?

If the question is simply if someone who does not identify as a tradiional male (whatever that is) or traditional female (whatever that is) can get SRS, then the answer seems pretty simple to me. I think a lot of the debate in this thread has focused on the process the person should go through, not whether they should be allowed SRS. In my opinion some process to make sure the person will be able to cope with the results of surgery is good. What the process is, I don't know. Should someone be allowed SRS to attain female parts who is not going to present socially as female? If that is what will make the person a healthy, functioning person then yes, they should.

I think some process to make sure a person will be able to cope with the results of any surgery is good. I had a hysterectomy for medical reasons. I really needed it. My doctor and I still had a conversation about how I would cope. This is because she was a good doctor. Having said that, I really wish she had prepared me for the fact that I had a very large fibroid growing outside my uterus and there was a high likelihood of adhesion's and ongoing issues from that.  So I don't necessarily think about communication as "gate keeping".

I do know my therapist has talked about NOT writing me a letter for top surgery. Yes, it's gatekeeping but it's not because of some gender bias. I don't like that but she's right. I am mentally ill. I freely admit I don't always take care of myself as I should and that's the basis of her concern. And honestly this is the first time in my life, where I have someone seriously looking out for my well-being. So as much as I don't like the gatekeeping, I also don't resent it.

Quote from: Allyda on September 28, 2014, 10:32:57 PM
My surgeon's office staff is trying to find me one that will see me virtually. So that will work hopefully. :) Wheels are in motion. They're just spinning in a rut right now. :D

Ally ;)

Ally: Dr Amy Winchester of Boulder Colorado might help via skype. She's a lovely woman and specializes in LGBT issues. Give her a call if you're still having trouble finding someone...

http://www.therapytribe.com/listing/amywinchester.html

First off start with that at the moment I am still questioning and feel HRT will aid me as to what path will follow.  I do understand that is my position and everyone has a different path so to speak. Yet as Jessica has pointed out time and again the medical profession needs some kind of evaluation as proof and or willingness shown to make such a drastic change. To that I whole heartedly agree both for the medical profession and the individual there should be some sort of evaluation as well as some time period to make sure this decision is not made on a whim or fetish. Yet if you can prove to a therapist that you indeed are an exception then there is no reason for refusal (read farther down). Sane or not we all make stupid choices and this would be a irreversible one.

To throw this slightly off topic but since both are irreversible and drastic changes doctor assisted suicide for the terminally ill.  I realize dangerous waters speaking of suicide but it is my belief that it should be allowed but like anything that drastic and irreversible it should be evaluated on a case by case basis.

Of course the latter would have to be done more on an immediate basis but as for GRS it should require an open minded evaluation with some criteria for allowance.  Now the hard part of course is the fact of being open minded medical community and legal implications hence the criteria. We have to work with what we have but it should also be updated appropriately within reason of course and this will all take time. I really do feel for anyone with the dysphoria as I feel I do have some of my own but that is the thing I understand how does ones convey feelings if they have no evaluation of some sort. If we could just say I have intense pain does that mean we can go to any medical facility and just get really strong pain medication. The answer is no. We have to seek a doctors approval aka an evaluation.

All of that being said and hammered yes there needs to be some evaluation as it sits now the evaluation should be at the discretion of the therapist and individuals evaluation of themselves. The big but part is what that evaluation is and I will take a guess that the RLE does fit the majority but not all. In the later case a therapist should be able to make a decision (perhaps with another therapists aid) in order to make exceptions to a rule or standard if you will. That is the real problem is that there is no leeway in the system to make exceptions where appropriate.

Just my opinion and wow a lot of heavy reading. Oddly this has helped me decide well kind of decided that GRS may not be for me yet have the option available is wise.

People should be able to do what makes them happier. It doesn't matter what gender they want to present as.
If they want reassignment, they deserve it.

I don't know , but it seems to me that if someone came into a surgeon's office and asked to have their eyes removed because light made them suicidal ,you think maybe there should be some established rules as  to the necessity  of granting this persons desire.

Quote from: GendrKweer on September 29, 2014, 02:56:52 AM
Ally: Dr Amy Winchester of Boulder Colorado might help via skype. She's a lovely woman and specializes in LGBT issues. Give her a call if you're still having trouble finding someone...

http://www.therapytribe.com/listing/amywinchester.html

Thanks I'll definitely give her a call. This has been so so frustrating for me I can't put it into words. I appreciate the link, again, thanks. :D

Ally :icon_flower:

I've found the posts here very interesting. It's helped solidify my feeling about the subject.

Maybe it's my latent right wing streak coming out, but I don't want a world where adults frequently hear "we know better than you what you want".

It's humiliating hearing someone, whether from the government, a doctor, or anyone else tell me that what I want to do is bad for me (in their estimation) and therefore I'm forbidden to do it. Before my transition, it basically never happened. But now, as a trans person, I'm assumed to be incompetent in ways I'm not sure I understand, and I've heard this message in all sorts of forms.

Yes, this might lead to regret. In the same way that banning people from climbing mountains would save a lot of people's lives. Make skiing illegal, and Chaz Bono would still have his father. Outlaw horseback riding and Christopher Reeve would still be alive. But the people who engage in these activities have decided that the benefits outweigh the risks, because this would be a bleaker world without those sports.

Also true, as people point out, increased regret would would make SRS less "successful" and therefore spoil coverage for the rest of us. In addition to pointing out that this is a rather self-centered point of view, (would you REALLY like people to be denied treatment they they'd need in order for yours to be covered?) I'd ask whether this should be extended to other life-saving procedures. Should transplants be avoided in high-risk subjects because it would decrease the success rate and might make doctors less likely to perform them?

So I'd like to see a world where authority figures avoid forbidding people from doing what they think they need to do unless it's absolutely necessary.

What if they're wrong?

Quote from: suzifrommd on September 30, 2014, 08:29:42 PM
Should transplants be avoided in high-risk subjects because it would decrease the success rate and might make doctors less likely to perform them?

As a Paramedic I can sadly say that this is being done now. It is not right, but it still happens everyday.  :(

Kind of an addition to what I said previously but for the most part there should be some roadblocks.  However at the moment the may be a bit stringent one would hope it might become more relaxed in the future. If no roadblocks or evaluations etc are done it would be to an extreme chaos or lack of law. Some control for a procedure should be warranted. 

As to the organ transplant thing I can understand why it is the way it is.  Yes it sucks but if you think of it if there are only so many organs we must put some priority as to were they go until we can meet the demand.  Hopeful thinking for the future where we can make organs but we aren't there yet. Pardon me if it seems harsh not my intent just a realist.

as i understand it originally srs was for those who wanted to present and live full time as female. the difficulty has come about that presenting as female now has many variations. one key question would be why a male wants a vagina yet still present as a man.is there hidden female desires or is that the only way that person can comfortably settle their mind. there has to be certain stepping stones to determine the true desire of the person. the current guidelines can be looked on as incorrect for such people but the realization that the spectrum of transgender is wider than when the guidlines were written has overrun the medical profesion. i also think that they have no guidelines for shall we say mixed gender. what is in question is whether the service can cope with the diverse range of trans people and currently i belive the answere is no.

in norway, the law says a person needs to undergo srs, or a least sterilization, before they can change their legal gender.
you hear that, all of you women who can't afford the surgery?

if you were to be stuck as legal males no matter how much you live as women, fully and wholly, how terrible wouldn't that be?

shouldn't the norwegian system chsnge for the sake of those who can't get the surgery?

and when new needs are discovered, wouldn't it be better to change the system?
i don't like to hear "that's just the way things are" as an argument of why things should remain the same way as they are right now.
i want a serious discussion about whether it would be beneficial to the man who wants a vagina, to chanhe the system so he also can get what he says he needs. and what consequences that may or may not have.

systems can be changed. revolutions have happened before.
i think it's better to discuss principles instead.

should an adult man be allowed to rule over his own body, as long as he can afford it, and is generally sane?

Quote from: Taka on October 03, 2014, 09:09:15 AM
......................................
systems can be changed. revolutions have happened before.
i think it's better to discuss principles instead.

should an adult man be allowed to rule over his own body, as long as he can afford it, and is generally sane?

Certain standards must exist. Amputating legs, arms, fingers, etc. would definately be extreme and should not be a matter of choice.

Hysterectonies and masectomies are routinely performed for medical reasons and don't have any real affect on a person's well being. Female breast augmentation and reduction and male breast reduction are routinely performed on demand.

Why not: male breast augmentation; male penectomy and castration; female vaginectomy; and female clitoris enlargement? What negative effects would they have?

Because of what I am, I understand a non-binary life quite well.  It just isn't for me.  However, I recall reading about a trans-woman who had gone all the way through SRS and was miserable.  She was searching for herself and thought she would find it with SRS but she didn't.  She decided to stop E and started T again.  Well, about three months after starting T, she started feeling good.  Then, a few weeks later, she started dating again.  At the end of the story, he was quite happy and had found himself as a guy with a vagina.  I thought it was strange but it was working so, great!

On the other hand, treatment of a non-binary person is complex.  I just hope people work through all issues before permanent change.  It could be difficult to determine if someone dislikes their genitals because they are binary and SRS might be appropriate or if they suffer from body dsymorphic disorder, where SRS would not be appropriate..

Hugs,

Jen

Allyda,

WPATH standards do not apply to intersexed individuals.   You should not need a letter from a psych. 

Hugs,

Jen   

Quote from: mac1 on October 03, 2014, 11:38:21 AM
Hysterectonies and masectomies are routinely performed for medical reasons and don't have any real affect on a person's well being. Female breast augmentation and reduction and male breast reduction are routinely performed on demand.

I disagree. Hysterectomy and masectomy can have HUGE effects on a person's wellbeing, whether they are a cisgender women, transmen or otherwise.

A cisgender woman - if she were to have these removed for medical reasons, I assume she would be devastated, especially if she desired to have biological children and/or she might feel less of a woman for having those surgeries. A transgender man - on the other hand, would feel much relief because such body parts will no longer be holding him back anymore. A non-binary person can feel similar to how the relief a transman feels but not in the manner of reaffirming their male identity, it would be reaffirming their non-binary identity - in my particular case, it would be my desire of a sexless body.

You are correct - female BA, reduction and male breast reduction are performed on demand and they are usually done cosmetic reasons but they improve the well-being of the individual immensely - granted if they identify as cisgender or transgender MTF/FTM.

Quote from: mac1 on October 03, 2014, 11:38:21 AM
Why not: male breast augmentation; male penectomy and castration; female vaginectomy; and female clitoris enlargement? What negative effects would they have?

When you put it in black and white terms like that...

For a cisgender men and women who identify as men and women - this would be disastrous.

For those who identify under the transgender umbrella (this includes cisgender men who desire a vagina but keeping their male chest and identity), it would be different.

Honestly, I don't know why this is even a debate anymore. People should be allowed to remove or modify their genitals, especially to elevate body dysphoria - regardless of their gender identity and what they present as to the world, they should go under a psychological evaluation like anyone who would be seeking SRS and they should be treated as human beings while doing so. Once they are of sound mind and fully aware of the consequences, they should be allowed to sign a waiver and receive a letter for such surgery.

None of this silly genderism double standard that affects people who are under the transgender umbrella and those identify outside the binary.

The correct answer is: yes.  It's your body, so it's your business.  Unless in fact it is someone else's body.  Which, would be very awkward.

people amputate other limbs for religious reasons nowadays.
some do it because of a body dysphoria that is way too eaay to dismiss as a mental disorder.

what if the need is programmed in brain structure?
what if the person is of a sound mind and fully realizes how crazy their needs seem to others, and even themselves, but no therapy can releave them of the dysphoria?

are we going to tell people that sorry, you will not be allowed to do what's needed to finally be rid of your pain.
are we dooming them to a life in unhappiness just to feel better about ourselves?

is it really ok to close all roads out of misery, so that suicide really and truly becomes the only way out?

shouldn' life be valued over function, if that is what the person chooses for themselves?

i'm not saying let everyone do whatever as ling as thwy can afford it.
just that if therapy can't fix a person's body dysphoria, because it is not caused by any curable mental illness, why not just fix the body?

would it not be good to remember the horror of those days when we'd rather resort to lobotomy than admit that a person can be transsexual, and that a sex change could be a solution?
why is a body change so much worse for those who identify differently, but feel the same pain?

Quote from: JLT1 on October 04, 2014, 10:52:52 PM
Allyda,

WPATH standards do not apply to intersexed individuals.   You should not need a letter from a psych. 

Hugs,

Jen   

Thanks Jen. I thought so but they told me they needed it so this is why I'm upset. I'll have to remind them I'm intersex, and shouldn't need a letter from a therapist.

Again, thanks. :D

Ally ;)

"Should someone be allowed SRS who is not planning to present as a female?"

Absolutely.

Quote from: Allyda on October 05, 2014, 07:57:02 PM
Thanks Jen. I thought so but they told me they needed it so this is why I'm upset. I'll have to remind them I'm intersex, and shouldn't need a letter from a therapist.

Again, thanks. :D

Ally ;)

Hey,

I took a copy of the WPATH standards with me and showed it to them.   It didn't work but they were embarrassed while they lied to me.....

Hugs,

Jen

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on October 05, 2014, 08:02:28 PM
"Should someone be allowed SRS who is not planning to present as a female?"

Absolutely.

Devlyn!

OMG!  I've missed you..........

Hugs,

Jen

(Oh, agree with the post.)

Good to see you, too!

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on October 05, 2014, 08:39:43 PM
Good to see you, too!

Hugs, Devlyn

OOXXOO

P

Been reading this thread for the first time, some comments are good and some come off as a load of crap! Some people like to submit themselves to a lot of evaluation which is fine for those who can't think for themselves and don't know for certain who they are and what they want to achieve, and I suppose that's good for them. In my experience I didn't do any of that, just showed them the money and got everything I wanted done. Having done all that even one very notable, well known surgeon was ready to perform SRS but I decided it was not essential at the last minute. I have never worn a dress and the only counseling I had was for wartime PTSD issues. In my purview a lot of what goes on as good therapy and the appropriate hoops for some to go through, is nothing more than unnecessary gatekeeping for people like myself who know their own hearts and minds. I really hate to read the insistent know-it-all one-size-fits-all demands of the self-righteous well-intended types who demand that others step in line and follow suit with them. I'm not that vanilla and I'm sure others feel the same. If I wanted a vagina and preferred to continue to present as a male I would do just that!

It would be interesting to see a poll on this subject, if anyone is is inclined to set one up. I've no idea how.

AnonyMs, next to New Topic, there is New Poll :) But I'm not sure if making a poll for this kind of topic in Gender Studies would be suitable...? 

I must admit I don't usually look at which forums posts are in. I tend to go though the recent topics, as there's interesting posts all over the place. I've no idea if its suitable or not, so I'll leave it to someone else.

My thinking was that there's a lot of discussion here, but its difficult to tell how representative it is in general and I'm curious. I was a quite surprised there could be so much argument for preventing people having SRS. Maybe shocked would be a better word than surprised.

Personally I'm kind of stuck, as I can't transition due to family/work and I've been making myself dangerously ill because of it. When I say can't, I mean I could, but the price to be paid would be very high and I can't bring myself to do it. If I could have SRS, continue to live as an man, and manage to keep going, then why should I not? I see a fair number of people losing their families over this - would you have SRS and try to live as a man effort to keep your family? I'm not sure SRS is enough, as in many ways I think it's a small thing compared to the social side, but its something I'd consider worth trying.

Quote from: peky on October 05, 2014, 09:15:07 PM

OOXXOO

P

Hi Peky!

Shantel you bring an awesome point and yes I think an evaluation should still be in order.

But that evaluation like I had said before should be done on a case by case basis.  Hence not every person is the same therefor not every situation should be remedied the same.

As a general medical example lets say you have some ailment that requires medication.  The first medication (works on 90% of the population) does not work so it is then evaluated to try a different one. Being as this issue is way more complicated of course so does the variation of the remedy for the problem. But to discover the remedy an evaluation is done in the process whether done by professionals and/or yourself. At this point if you live in certain countries you can be limited to more then just money to get the job done so to speak.  I assume you live in the USA which money can buy everything it seems there.  I happen to live in Canada and when it comes to healthcare there is little choice but to follow the loopholes.  Lastly yes WPATH needs to be modified in such a way as to have criteria set forth for everyone not just a general yup this is it thing.  It should not be the total written in stone this is it law rather a guideline used. 

The one thing I see as the problem as the medical profession is most likely made up of CIS people that cant comprehend transgendered therefor are judging/evaluating transgender on something they really can not understand.

Quote from: Jen72 on October 06, 2014, 11:27:19 AM

The one thing I see as the problem as the medical profession is most likely made up of CIS people that cant comprehend transgendered therefor are judging/evaluating transgender on something they really can not understand.

Precisely, and that's often the elephant in the room!

I think they should do whatever they find appropriate because its their life, and body. Let's just hope that it was well thought out.

I've read this topic 1 year and a half ago, when it was still active. I didn't answer it but I felt quite hurt by some comments.

Today I'm 12 monthes HRT, 1.5 month post-op, dilating three times a day. I'm presenting male, I'm defining myself as "a person" and I've never been that happy. I do wear dresses and skirts (especially these days with the donut), and makeup, because it suits me well, but it's pretty rare and it tends to make me really uncomfortable and out of place. Most of the time it's just jeans and a good old sweater.

I went to thailand and gatekeeping was pretty loose. I just had to get 2 letters which were pretty easy to get, without even lying to any of my two psychiatrists. I just said I needed HRT and a Vagina and that I didn't really considered myself as a woman. I described who I was. In 1 hour it was over.

The only thing that annoys me is all the people that says "you're rather androgynous, when are you going to present as female" and "you should change your sens of humour, your jokes are rather manly". There's a billions of things about me that are manly, and a billions of things that are womanly. Not my fault if these criterias just sucks.

Good lord. What's wrong with people, I wonder. Persons are persons. Do you really need to create categories ? I'm sorry but I'm just interested in being happy. And I am, right now.

Quote from: suzifrommd on September 22, 2014, 01:25:53 PMWhat do you think? Should someone be allowed SRS who is not planning to present as a female?

Here's my issue: presenting as female is hard, and getting people to accept my transition without judgement is going to be impossible.  Why, if I don't care how I'm presenting 90% of the time, should I have to put myself in the situation where I'll be ridiculed and persecuted, and probably lose my career, just because I want to be more comfortable with my body when I go to bed, take a shower, or am intimate with one of my partners?  SRS isn't about passing.  It's about what happens when the clothes come off.

Granted, I'm not the person you're describing, as I do plan on presenting as female outside of the workplace, but I actually prefer the way that my jobs work from a male perspective, and I'm not even sure I'd like to work at them if I were a woman.

TL;DR - I'm approved, y'all's views are nice and still largely beside the point

Should is always such a fun question. Much as I would love to pass as female and I certainly could, I'm mostly presenting somewhere in the non-binary and content with my choice, more on that below

Being "allowed" gender confirmation surgery suggests it's a privilege that I have to earn the naughty bits I might have otherwise been born with. I'd rather put it as I'm approved - by the only people who matter, 2 pshrinks and two different surgeons who have accepted me for GCS, a 3rd is waiting for my consult to be approved.

I'm also accepted by my gf of 18 years who's never been a fan of transition, my daughters and by the people who are my friends and co-workers. I'm glad the gf has finally come around, it's been dysphoria inducing that she's always accepted me as a cross dressed chick at home and not accepted me as a woman, objected to medical transition.

When I brought up the need for a surgery letter with my psychiatrist she was concerned primarily on technical grounds - my insurance company policy document implies that RLE includes passing for 12 months in all contexts. I was completely down with an RLE - I feel for me it's both feasible for me and a good process to ensure I'm emotionally prepared for what would follow - I'm also clear that WPATH 7 allows for non-binary presentation.

So my therapist wanted a consultation with someone more experienced in gender identity, I had the referrals for that the next day and had selected someone I liked a couple days after that. She said right off the bat "yes, even the WPATH 7 language is outdated, let alone the insurance language"

If course we had to run through a couple of months of getting 2 pshrinks' schedules to align and another couple of months for #2 to evaluate.

As of Friday I have her draft letter, like what she wrote etc, here's the she sums up my presentation.

"qualifies for a diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria. She presents as organized and capable, and as having undergone a long process of self-examination and self-expression regarding gender identity. She presents visually primarily as male, with a beard and a receding hairline, but also with feminine accents. She has long experienced doubts about being able to pass as female, and describes herself as making do as non-binary in gender presentation, but nonetheless wanting to more fully occupy her female identity, to be treated socially as a Woman, and to have her body as congruent as possible with her gender identity." 

That is all that needs to be said about it. I actually identify as binary female, I've tried going off hormones to see if I could be comfortable cycling between feminine and masculine at the endocrinole layer and that didn't work at all.

To the question posed and many views posted since, I will be presenting somewhere in between male and female

Electrolysis: I don't have the resources, or at least wouldn't choose to spend tens of thousands of $. Pretty clearly my body hair is also not being fully eradicated by HRT so I'm resigned to being an hirsute chick

FFS would be covered but the time I'm going to have to take off work as a self employed person for GCS is bad enough

I'm half bald, that's not changing and wearing a wig in my professional work isn't physically possible

I don't care to present one way at work and another elsewhere, inconsistency in presentation has been an element of my dysphoria - dressing at home only actually makes me feel worse.


One thing I've found troubling in this thread is a repetition of the idea that anyone's opinion outside of mine and my health care providers even matters. These have come along with fairly strong misrepresentations of the WPATH SOC which indicates that flexibility is required.

Certainly access to appropriate care is an important issue and societal views of gender nonconformity ultimately do have an affect on laws enabling or restricting access. As such I find the degree of misunderstanding right here on Susan's.org disappointing.

Personally I'm lucky to live and work in an environment that's both accepting and affords me full insurance coverage for all I need and a lot of things I will choose not to access.

I know that makes me the exception, I try to remember that when difficulties arise.

I find it slightly amusing how easy it is to undergo castration while SRS is a huge drama.

Xirafel, the criteria are the same as far as diagnosis. The only difference in WPATHis that the year RLE isn't required for an orchiectomy. The year of HRT is the same, also subject to medical necessity.

Quote from: SadieBlake on October 30, 2016, 06:40:34 AM
...

Should is always such a fun question. Much as I would love to pass as female and I certainly could, I'm mostly presenting somewhere in the non-binary and content with my choice, more on that below

...

"qualifies for a diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria. She presents as organized and capable, and as having undergone a long process of self-examination and self-expression regarding gender identity. She presents visually primarily as male, with a beard and a receding hairline, but also with feminine accents. She has long experienced doubts about being able to pass as female, and describes herself as making do as non-binary in gender presentation, but nonetheless wanting to more fully occupy her female identity, to be treated socially as a Woman, and to have her body as congruent as possible with her gender identity." 

That is all that needs to be said about it. I actually identify as binary female, I've tried going off hormones to see if I could be comfortable cycling between feminine and masculine at the endocrinole layer and that didn't work at all.

...

I don't care to present one way at work and another elsewhere, inconsistency in presentation has been an element of my dysphoria - dressing at home only actually makes me feel worse.

...

Much like you, I find myself in a body that is very clearly male.  I know HRT cannot erase these traits.  I know my wife likes my male bits.  But I do not, don't think I ever have.  The thought of having my body aligned more closely to what's in my head, despite how I look, makes me yearn to go faster in transition.

Thank you for sharing your words.  You give me confidence in my own plan.

YES! Of course, everybody can make a mistake and regret, but that's not other people's business.

A question for everybody saying "no": Who are you to judge other people's needs?

Quote from: TechGirl on October 30, 2016, 08:11:13 AM
Much like you, I find myself in a body that is very clearly male.  I know HRT cannot erase these traits.  I know my wife likes my male bits.  But I do not, don't think I ever have.  The thought of having my body aligned more closely to what's in my head, despite how I look, makes me yearn to go faster in transition.

Thank you for sharing your words.  You give me confidence in my own plan.

My wife used to like mine, too.  However, she gave that up a long time ago do to the changes with her bits.  Unfortunately I am still stuck with mine.

Quote from: Xirafel on October 30, 2016, 06:53:26 AM
I find it slightly amusing how easy it is to undergo castration while SRS is a huge drama.

Especially when Castration is probably the most permanently altering part of SRS anyway...  I feel like of you've been without testicles for a few months, you're probably ready for SRS, regardless of other factors.  SRS, to me, seems like one of the safest, simplest parts of transition that has been blown waaayyy out of proportion next to things like FFS and going Full Time...

Quote from: TechGirl on October 30, 2016, 08:11:13 AMI know my wife likes my male bits.

Hence why I'm glad I don't have a wife... >!0