Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hi everyone,

I've encountered a lot of situations lately that have really caused me to ask myself if maybe coming completely out about my transition, and actually presenting as who I am, is a better idea for me than just presenting as male like I do... It's really complicated, so I want to know what you all would do. And I mean it when I say that this has been causing me a lot of stress.

First off, keeping in mind that my hair is only like four inches long, everyone knows me as a male, and I present as such, a lot of people on my dorm floor and at work are starting to treat me noticeably worse than they used to -- in that it's really obvious that I've changed in the last 4 months. People at work don't talk to me anymore, and one specific guy I work with explicitly made fun of me the other day for being a "girly" guy... A lot of people do this now, and I'm sick of it because they're essentially asserting their dominance onto me.

Moreover, I have to walk around with this vest on because my breast area protrudes a couple of inches, and I don't want to elicit anymore odd questions about what's going on down there... Some of them have been made out of malice, like from my former roommate.

The last major thing is that I was verbally attacked by, chased by, and almost physically attacked by, a man today as I was walking somewhere. He kept calling me vulgar names and told me to not ever walk in front of him again or he'll show me. I walked off because i didn't want a conflict, but he followed me and yelled at me about how I'm a "little bitch" and whatnot. I eventually ran (and never saw him again), but I had to even hear, "I don't care how gay, or whatever the <not allowed> you are; you'd better get back here, or I'll f*ing kill your ass."

Guys, I'm just tired of it. I'm tired of the obvious stares, the threats, rude guys asserting their dominance onto me, nicer guys telling me I look "cool-looking" instead of seeing me as female... I'm tired of having to hide the parts of my femininity that people like, I'm tired of being in the closet... I'm tired of odd scenarios, such as being treated like a boy, or experiencing being abruptly stopped in public by a well-intentioned lady to be told that I'm the "cutest kid" she's ever seen, whenever I want to lead the life of a gorgeous woman and nothing else.

I really sometimes feel that presenting as female -- hair, makeup, clothes, and all -- would prevent anymore of these uncomfortable situations from occurring. But, I'm terrified that it won't work out, and I'll look dumb to those who questioned that I could even succeed at this. I have some hindrances left, such as razor bumps from shaving my face clear every other day... Or my inability to really gain enough body fat just yet...

How do you KNOW when you're ready to finally go full-time? How much of a difference can it really make in how you're perceived? I'm stressed (as a lot of this has occurred since I returned to my school a couple days ago), and I'm so clueless and confused...

Thanks for reading this very lengthy, verbose post.

Alice

I went full time when I realized that I was more comfortable presenting myself as a woman than as a fake guy and I didn't care what anyone thought about it.

I was part time for almost a year presenting as much as I could as female.

I also was on HRT for 5 years before I went full time.

A tragic event that allowed me to start full time.

If I knew full time was so liberating I would have done it earlier.

You have to know or you will know when it is safe to present.

Hugs and safe passage.

Alice,

I am 19 months into HRT.  I actually started presenting before I started my HRT.  I suppose I guess it is something different for everyone.  I didn't start going out as the real me though until I was about 12 months on HRT, and by going out, I mean wearing dresses and stuff like that.  I still wear jeans and a hoodie a lot of the time but that is because they're so comfy.  I don't buy men's clothing and I haven't for quite some time.  If you are being heckled about the way you look, I would discuss this with a therapist to see what might be the best course of action for you personally.  I was always quite effeminate so it didn't take much for me to pass as a female even before I started my HRT. 

I also had breast forms before I started HRT so I could go out as me and not have to worry about that part of it.  I went through my share of awkward phases but don't let them fool you!

I am going to quote my diary now...

"God does not make mistakes, He makes individuals and he loves each and every one of his inventions..."

I reach a point in my transition when I knew I was going to ready because I had planned for it. I am sure my situation is different, but in my case I had done my FFS,  I was on hormones, my hair grown out enough that I was comfortable wearing it day to day, I had my electrolysis under control and I just felt that I was as ready as I ever could be. I knew I wouldn't be perfect, but here I was and ready to make the leap of faith :) It only got better and easier after that.

Just remember that we lack female social skills when we first start off. We just don't have the same life experience. There are so many things that we need to learn and quickly in order to adapt and fit in. Unfortunately, you can't get to that point without taking the jump first, but then it wouldn't be an adventure :)

The real thing that gave me the kick in the pants was the FFS. After that was done I finally loved mirrors because I had to keep pinching myself to make sure it was all real. I really wanted full time when that was done. To me I consider full time to be the day my legal name change came back from court and I was able to start changing my name everywhere.

I tend to use a simple approach to get answers to most problems in life...

Which Pain is Worse?

There are no perfect answers. For sure you know the pain of one choice. Yet, do you know the pain of the other? There is likely nothing to stop you from venturing out into the real world as the real you on a temporary basis. "Presenting" isn't an Not or Forever choice. I've done part-time for quite a while.  Perhaps there are some minor logistical problems to resolve to manage an escape from maleness, but sort of minor in the grand scheme of things

Its all you... Hard to say what Id do in your position.  My experience, I wasn't sure I was ready, I just decided to try it because... well, why not, I was going to anyway, so I kinda jumped into it a year earlier than Id ever thought, and it was much easier than I ever expected. Then again, there where so many factors for me that probably are not the same for you.... End of the marriage, completely accepting AND supportive office, no friends to speak of, family out of my life many years ago....  If I had had as much to risk as many before me have, I wouldn't have taken that step so easily.  It sure is a long one, and I see no way back to where things were (not that Id ever want to go back).

Quote from: Jill F on January 13, 2015, 08:57:17 PM
I went full time when I realized that I was more comfortable presenting myself as a woman than as a fake guy and I didn't care what anyone thought about it.

That was the wisest, most straightforward thing you could have said in response to my post. I 100% agree with yor philosophy.

Your going to change a lot more. You are only 4 months in. I have been in a similar position to you, in fact I am still there. Except I am 12 months on E and 7 months on Spiro. No one has actually given me a hard time although I do get funny looks sometimes when I slip from andro to like, femdro, especially. Not to be negative but I doubt these douches who are being offensive will treat you any better if you start presenting as female. If I did not feel ready to do it I would not to it, as evident my my own public outness so far. At home I present myself as I like, among my family, but I don't approach that level yet in public. I will admit though, I am very conservative, and happy to take it easy.

Quote from: Falwynn Falconwind on January 13, 2015, 09:06:13 PM
Alice,

I am 19 months into HRT.  I actually started presenting before I started my HRT.  I suppose I guess it is something different for everyone.  I didn't start going out as the real me though until I was about 12 months on HRT, and by going out, I mean wearing dresses and stuff like that.  I still wear jeans and a hoodie a lot of the time but that is because they're so comfy.  I don't buy men's clothing and I haven't for quite some time.  If you are being heckled about the way you look, I would discuss this with a therapist to see what might be the best course of action for you personally.  I was always quite effeminate so it didn't take much for me to pass as a female even before I started my HRT. 

I also had breast forms before I started HRT so I could go out as me and not have to worry about that part of it.  I went through my share of awkward phases but don't let them fool you!

I am going to quote my diary now...

"God does not make mistakes, He makes individuals and he loves each and every one of his inventions..."

Thanks for the advice. Obviously, I sometimes enjoy the heckling, but I'd rather attract men then get made fun of by them. And I know I can, because I occasionally get gendered correctly at least. But this, in combination with all the other scenarios I mentioned, really makes me question if I should just take the risk of finally presenting. And as for me, I used to be a bodybuilder, so I obviously wasn't effeminate. I guess that's another thing -- going from being perceived as a macho to a young woman in four months is pretty scary, but god, I just want to be myself.

As for the therapist thing, I do see one. I'll certainty mention this to him tomorrow.

In reference to your journal quote that you afforded me, the idea of any personal god is far too irrational for me to ever even consider using as a coping mechanism, or as viewpoint from which I can reconcile what I'm undergoing right now. I'm 100% godless, have been this way my entire life, and have made it a thousand times further than anyone ever thought possible. In two years, I'll lead a great, stable life, and I attribute this to my deep-seated resilience and conscientiousness as a student -- certainly not to some deity who would create someone, obscure himself from them, silently demand worship from them, and punish them for failing to discern him.

Maybe I digress, but was your quote not explicit playing off of my signature? Lol.

I have been presenting in public here and there since august, and I started E like 3-4 weeks ago. I think you should try to experiment. take it slow. no need to go full time right away. Just go out for a walk presenting female or take a trip to a gas station that you normally don't go to in women's clothes. That would be a good way to gauge peoples reactions without having to let the whole world know you are trans. I wouldn't recommend moving to fast because you never know how people are going to react. If they become hostile and you are in a situation where you are stuck, it could have a negative affect on your mental health.

Also if you don't like men asserting dominance on you u should probably avoid men ( I dont mean this literally). They are socialized to assert dominance. The transition is not gonna help in this regard. They see you as feminine so they think you are less than, because sexism, so therefor if they see you as a women they are still going to assert dominance on you because they think women are less then men. That last part isn't probably what you wanted to hear, but its just how it is though.

As for presenting, only you know when the time is right.  It may help your case to throw on some makeup and alter your appearance... it might be just what is needed to throw haters and bigots off your being an effeminate male.  They may see you as just a female.  I'm not saying that it will be easy, but it may make it easier for you.  I think that Jill had it right.  When faking it becomes less desirable than being the real you.

Quote from: Jill F on January 13, 2015, 08:57:17 PM
I went full time when I realized that I was more comfortable presenting myself as a woman than as a fake guy and I didn't care what anyone thought about it.

Quote from: amber roskamp on January 13, 2015, 11:04:16 PM
I have been presenting in public here and there since august, and I started E like 3-4 weeks ago. I think you should try to experiment. take it slow. no need to go full time right away. Just go out for a walk presenting female or take a trip to a gas station that you normally don't go to in women's clothes. That would be a good way to gauge peoples reactions without having to let the whole world know you are trans. I wouldn't recommend moving to fast because you never know how people are going to react. If they become hostile and you are in a situation where you are stuck, it could have a negative affect on your mental health.

Also if you don't like men asserting dominance on you u should probably avoid men ( I dont mean this literally). They are socialized to assert dominance. The transition is not gonna help in this regard. They see you as feminine so they think you are less than, because sexism, so therefor if they see you as a women they are still going to assert dominance on you because they think women are less then men. That last part isn't probably what you wanted to hear, but its just how it is though.

Actually, taking it slow is a great idea. Thank you for that. I always think I'll just wake up one day and feel like today is the day, but I'll most likely ease into it as you had suggested. And what you've said about men is true, and is part of the reason I abhorred being one.

Quote from: Falwynn Falconwind on January 13, 2015, 11:12:31 PM
As for presenting, only you know when the time is right.  It may help your case to throw on some makeup and alter your appearance... it might be just what is needed to throw haters and bigots off your being an effeminate male.  They may see you as just a female.  I'm not saying that it will be easy, but it may make it easier for you.  I think that Jill had it right.  When faking it becomes less desirable than being the real you.

This is what I've been considering doing -- that and doing whatever there is to do with my bowl haircut thingy. Thanks for your input.

Alice

For the first 3 months before HRT and after I started therapy, I had a wig, nothing fancy mind you.  I had a boy cut extraordinarily short!  It wasn't until I started my March therapy sessions that my therapist wanted to see my real hair.  She applauded my hair and told me I should go without the wig.  I haven't worn the wig since.  It was an awesome way to jumpstart my self-confidence in the beginning though!

Quote from: Seras on January 13, 2015, 10:39:29 PM
Your going to change a lot more. You are only 4 months in. I have been in a similar position to you, in fact I am still there. Except I am 12 months on E and 7 months on Spiro. No one has actually given me a hard time although I do get funny looks sometimes when I slip from andro to like, femdro, especially. Not to be negative but I doubt these douches who are being offensive will treat you any better if you start presenting as female. If I did not feel ready to do it I would not to it, as evident my my own public outness so far. At home I present myself as I like, among my family, but I don't approach that level yet in public. I will admit though, I am very conservative, and happy to take it easy.

Okay, my question wasn't a question of whether I passively pass right now, or even if I will near the end of my transition. Thus, I don't know why you insinuated that I'll need to develop more, or why you kindly stated that I'd essentially be perceived as a man presenting as female to males. I've never said something like that to someone on a trans forum...

I tend to think that, given how many people gender me correctly now, whenever I'm not presenting, maybe I can at least consider taking this to the next level. I want to know if anyone who maybe at one point, looked only mostly passable without makeup or anything has ever taken the leap of presenting female in public and whether it worked for them.

The difference making an effort to look female can have on the public's perception of you, especially when your body is set. This is the kind o information I'm inquiring.

I think a good way to convey the nature of the problem I'm facing is to just ask this:

To the women who were brave enough to confront the world as that person that you are viscerally, did anyone have high expectations as to how feminine you must look without actively presenting as female? Did you look in the mirror while presenting as male (like I myself do) and tell yourself that you have to naturally look such and such feminine before presenting?

This is what I personally do, and it's because I'm so terrified of looking in the mirror and seeing a male trying to be female. I have confidence in myself nowadays, but I'm still scared to even present as female in my own privacy. I guess, since I've only dressed female once in private, and didn't quite know what I was doing, maybe I'm curious as to how well actively presenting can bridge the gap that may still exist between your natural appearance and passing all the time.

And I really don't want to read a personalized reply to my question, such as, "Well, based off how you appear in your profile, etc. presenting as female will make such and such difference. Give it time."

People's opinions do affect me, and when someone says, for example, that presenting probably won't make males anymore attracted to me than before, I honestly start to hate myself even more than I already do. That post really caused my dysphoria to spike. Please just take my main question in a general sense.

Alice

Alice,

I hated the person looking back at me in the mirror.  I hated who I was.  Every time I saw myself it would throw me deeper and deeper into depression.  It got so bad I ended up hanging a towel over the mirror so that I wouldn't have to see that person looking back.  I never ever saw myself as male.  When I was in Middle and high school, I would make myself vomit so that I wouldn't have to go to gym class and endure the dreaded locker room.  I still have a phobia of that God forsaken place. 

As far as dressing up, I just read that you've only done it once in private.  I was VERY comfortable with myself dressing in private by the time I decided to present.  I experimented with makeup, wow was I horrible at it at first! (LOL)  Anyway The first time I really presented.  I had determined that I was going to go to a Lindsey Stirling concert is my first "outing"  It was exhilarating! 

I would say before you present yourself to the outside world, become more at one with your new you in private.  Then you can do what I did and take short adventures: get your mail; go to the gas station, the store... to get more comfortable with yourself in public.

I remember  being dressed as a girl and darting out to my mailbox and as quick as I could getting back inside the safe haven of my house. (LOL)

I guess when I started presenting is when people started calling me by female pronouns, (She her, maám, miss, lady) you get the idea. 

Hi Jasper,

I went FT when I wasn't 'passing' and couldn't anyway. I came out at work where everyone knew me as a 'guy'. Yes I could still see 'him' in the mirror, and he hung around for quite awhile. But I felt I was ready as I wasn't interested in playing games anymore, I had accepted myself as the woman I am and I realised other peoples opinions meant nothing to me. It was my opinion of me that mattered.

I was lucky, people accepted me for who I am, the woman at work had no issues at all, I used the female loo from day one and no one questioned that at all. Guys were slower but I understand that, men are a bit lost in trying to get heir head around why anyone would want to be female - no matter how respectful they may be.

I did have short hair and I found a hairdresser who was happy to help me feminise my look as much as possible, they have been looking after me for three years now and I'm a bit of a favourite with them, and they are very special to me.

Yes I had been wearing female clothing most of my life and was comfortable walking and dressing appropriately for a woman my age and position. Being comfortable in your clothes is important but you can practice that at home, how to sit etc, how to go to the loo!

I also studied how women and men interact in public, you can do that at any shopping mall. Women do treat other women differently and you need to be comfortable with that as well.

This journey is different for all of us, I tend to emphasize self confidence above all else, but for some girls looks or voice are more important. So as for when? The only correct answer is when you are ready. You may well want to start off by going shopping, or to the movies, somewhere where you are anonymous, to get use to the feel of life as you.

What was important for me was knowing that there is no going back, so I did very deliberately destroy any bridge that I had to return to being 'him'.

I have never regretted it, not for a single second.

Quote from: Jasper93 on January 13, 2015, 08:52:51 PM
The last major thing is that I was verbally attacked by, chased by, and almost physically attacked by, a man today as I was walking somewhere. He kept calling me vulgar names and told me to not ever walk in front of him again or he'll show me. I walked off because i didn't want a conflict, but he followed me and yelled at me about how I'm a "little bitch" and whatnot. I eventually ran (and never saw him again), but I had to even hear, "I don't care how gay, or whatever the <not allowed> you are; you'd better get back here, or I'll f*ing kill your ass."

I do not know where you live, but I think it is very rude or even criminal that the guy chases and attacks you verbally. Why don't you call police?

I have never faced such a case during the last 12 years.

Gradual progress is always nice and better. People need some time to digest and be adjusted to your new presentation.

Good luck!

barbie~~

Quote from: barbie on January 14, 2015, 12:43:31 AM
I do not know where you live, but I think it is very rude or even criminal that the guy chases and attacks you verbally. Why don't you call police?

I have never faced such a case during the last 12 years.

Gradual progress is always nice and better. People need some time to digest and be adjusted to your new presentation.

Good luck!

barbie~~

Thanks for your input; I agree. I live on a college campus... Indiana University, which crazily enough is home to the Kinsey Institute, one of the first GLBT centers, and even LaVerne Cox at one time (says our GLBT coordinator). It's GLBT world, yet I was walking just off-campus whenever I got confronted by the man, a pedestrian probably in his 50s. Wasn't even presenting...just had slim jeans on.

It happened like six hours ago. It prompted me to consider this whole thing, as, if I presented, I don't think people would yell to me about how gay I must look... But would instead just see a female. But I'm obviously going to develop some confidence and practice, as put forth in previous posts, before I embark on such a journey. :)

I'd have called the cops, but I don't have a phone... I pay for my schooling, so yeah. Glad I wasn't dumb enough to fight like I would have four months ago. But he probably wouldn't have had this problem four months ago.

I knew when the wild horse of my personality bolted the stables. 12 months ago :~)

x

I have in fact presented myself to the world as I feel "viscerally" and I passed too to quite a lot of people but not everyone as this was pre-HRT. I also judge myself and feel I must present a certain level of femininity before presenting as so. I am also terrified of looking in the mirror and seeing a guy trying to look female that always made me feel terrible, real terrible. Nowadays though I do it all the time and I get more and more confident in myself every day, occasionally in public too. I am sorry I caused your dysphoria to spike but I can't help it if you are offended by insinuating implications that you place upon my words saying things I did not say.

My 2¢:

Try it out and see.

I started off slow. Basically getting out of the house, the first stop for going out as me was my therapist. Well, not entirely. I wore a feminine top and a pair of men's skinny jeans. It probably looked ridiculous but nobody said a word. Probably helped that I was walking around Chelsea, NYC.

Bolder steps were when I completed the outfit and started wearing women's jeans. Went to my new therapist dressed up that way. I also bought a winter jacket and wore that. That was the tipping point. Without makeup I was getting "miss" and "ma'am" with doors held open and the like. I still didn't go FT yet and I'm not going to until summer. Clothes are just one part of it. When I shaped the brows that kind of sealed the deal.

Now I go out all the time as me. I don't go to work fully as me but I push it, partially covered by sweaters and outerwear.

The reason for this is twofold.

One, work wants a hard date more or less. I want my name and gender marker change before I do that. I also want to do our taxes before I change my name.

Two, I plan to do this over summer because I will likely be going for VFS then, and the kids are off school so I won't have any questions if I just show up as a woman one day in the middle of the school year.

But... The best made plans often change. If I can get my voice somewhat passable, I will probably go FT at work sooner. School remains the only obstacle, but I can deal with that somewhat by partially covering up.

This is why starting transition over winter is a good thing.

I also need to get rid of the square man glasses and do my makeup properly, both of which depend on $ so I'm trying to iron that out first.

What do you consider as full-time exactly? Wear a female cut t-shirt and skinny jeans and you can basically already be full-time. Just adjust your clothing style bit by bits. Eventually you feel it makes situations more awkward to try and present as a guy, than to just be you.

Quote from: JoanneB on January 13, 2015, 09:26:24 PM
I tend to use a simple approach to get answers to most problems in life...

Which Pain is Worse?

There are no perfect answers. For sure you know the pain of one choice. Yet, do you know the pain of the other? There is likely nothing to stop you from venturing out into the real world as the real you on a temporary basis. "Presenting" isn't an Not or Forever choice. I've done part-time for quite a while. 

I like that.  "Which pain is worst" i too live by and make a lot of decisions of lately with the saying which one will make me happy.   And to be honest you never know until you try.   So if presenting male is a burden try going out somewhere quite as your true self and just see what happens.  Who knows you may be surprised and see the world in a new light.

Best of luck to you.


Vicky
MtF

Quote from: Vicky Mitchell on January 14, 2015, 08:22:02 AM
"Which pain is worst" i too live by and make a lot of decisions of lately with the saying which one will make me happy.   And to be honest you never know until you try.   So if presenting male is a burden try going out somewhere quite as your true self and just see what happens.  Who knows you may be surprised and see the world in a new light.

1000% agree!!

Quote from: Kirey on January 14, 2015, 08:04:02 AM
What do you consider as full-time exactly? Wear a female cut t-shirt and skinny jeans and you can basically already be full-time. Just adjust your clothing style bit by bits. Eventually you feel it makes situations more awkward to try and present as a guy, than to just be you.

That's a good point.

Full time for me will be a gradual process. However at work it has to be a hard cutover, so I can get my IDs changed and so I won't be challenged using the correct restrooms.

Now, I do use the women's restrooms outside of work. However, not when I'm in guy mode at all. I'd rather avoid trouble. I also use the family restrooms wherever possible when I'm not presenting F, and when I'm with kids.

The tipping point for that for me was when my daughter asked, "why are we going to the men's bathroom? You're a girl, girls go to the girl's bathroom." She was right.

I have given up on trying to be masculine.  In times when I think it might be a bit problematic for me, I will "dress down" and go more androgynous but not really any less female.

My plan is to go full time when I feel confident about my ability to pass properly in public.  I have so so SO much respect for anyone who goes full time without HRT, without a lot of things.  If it was mandatory for my transition that I live as a woman before getting hormones then I just wouldn't be capable.   I admire people who can go full time in hostile situations, they must be tough as nails!

Really it has to be up to you as to when you reveal who you really are.  If you feel strong enough to do it now, then go ahead! 

As others have pointed out only you can actually answer that question as to when your ready to do that. I eased into it over a months time adding to what I was doing sliding from andro to fem pretty quickly. I didn't set any specific time table as to when I would reach presently completely, but it was all based on what and when I was ready to do things. You need to find a method that works best for you and use it including consulting your therapist. It felt right when I reached that point and at that point I could bare to present as male anymore and didn't try.
Mariah

Quote from: Seras on January 14, 2015, 04:54:29 AM
I have in fact presented myself to the world as I feel "viscerally" and I passed too to quite a lot of people but not everyone as this was pre-HRT. I also judge myself and feel I must present a certain level of femininity before presenting as so. I am also terrified of looking in the mirror and seeing a guy trying to look female that always made me feel terrible, real terrible. Nowadays though I do it all the time and I get more and more confident in myself every day, occasionally in public too. I am sorry I caused your dysphoria to spike but I can't help it if you are offended by insinuating implications that you place upon my words saying things I did not say.

Cool. "Viscerally" mean internally, by the way.

Quote from: ImagineKate on January 14, 2015, 07:14:58 AM
My 2¢:

Try it out and see.

I started off slow. Basically getting out of the house, the first stop for going out as me was my therapist. Well, not entirely. I wore a feminine top and a pair of men's skinny jeans. It probably looked ridiculous but nobody said a word. Probably helped that I was walking around Chelsea, NYC.

Bolder steps were when I completed the outfit and started wearing women's jeans. Went to my new therapist dressed up that way. I also bought a winter jacket and wore that. That was the tipping point. Without makeup I was getting "miss" and "ma'am" with doors held open and the like. I still didn't go FT yet and I'm not going to until summer. Clothes are just one part of it. When I shaped the brows that kind of sealed the deal.

Now I go out all the time as me. I don't go to work fully as me but I push it, partially covered by sweaters and outerwear.

The reason for this is twofold.

One, work wants a hard date more or less. I want my name and gender marker change before I do that. I also want to do our taxes before I change my name.

Two, I plan to do this over summer because I will likely be going for VFS then, and the kids are off school so I won't have any questions if I just show up as a woman one day in the middle of the school year.

But... The best made plans often change. If I can get my voice somewhat passable, I will probably go FT at work sooner. School remains the only obstacle, but I can deal with that somewhat by partially covering up.

This is why starting transition over winter is a good thing.

I also need to get rid of the square man glasses and do my makeup properly, both of which depend on $ so I'm trying to iron that out first.

Thanks for your input. Your method you utilized to hopefully ease into presenting is similar to my own. I've been dressing androgynously... Just converse, skinny jeans, a jacket, and maybe a beanie. A and I too am experiencing what you've recounted... Guys holding doors open for me, getting mam'd here a there... And this group of sorority girls today were handing out shirts today, stopped me, and asked if I wanted one. The gave me a female-styled shirt instead of the male option. I'm transitioning in winter as well!

Quote from: ImagineKate on January 14, 2015, 07:14:58 AM
My 2¢:

Try it out and see.

I started off slow. Basically getting out of the house, the first stop for going out as me was my therapist. Well, not entirely. I wore a feminine top and a pair of men's skinny jeans. It probably looked ridiculous but nobody said a word. Probably helped that I was walking around Chelsea, NYC.

Bolder steps were when I completed the outfit and started wearing women's jeans. Went to my new therapist dressed up that way. I also bought a winter jacket and wore that. That was the tipping point. Without makeup I was getting "miss" and "ma'am" with doors held open and the like. I still didn't go FT yet and I'm not going to until summer. Clothes are just one part of it. When I shaped the brows that kind of sealed the deal.

Now I go out all the time as me. I don't go to work fully as me but I push it, partially covered by sweaters and outerwear.

The reason for this is twofold.

One, work wants a hard date more or less. I want my name and gender marker change before I do that. I also want to do our taxes before I change my name.

Two, I plan to do this over summer because I will likely be going for VFS then, and the kids are off school so I won't have any questions if I just show up as a woman one day in the middle of the school year.

But... The best made plans often change. If I can get my voice somewhat passable, I will probably go FT at work sooner. School remains the only obstacle, but I can deal with that somewhat by partially covering up.

This is why starting transition over winter is a good thing.

I also need to get rid of the square man glasses and do my makeup properly, both of which depend on $ so I'm trying to iron that out first.

Thanks for your input. We have similar experiences. I'm presenting amdrogynously currently, unless you count this wonderful bowl haircut. Like what you've recounted, I've been ma'am'd, have had doors open for me, and this group  girls were handing out shirts to passersby today... They asked me if I wanted on, so I said yes and walked up to them. The shirt I was given was female-styled... Never dreamed that a sorority girl would give me my first females article of clothing lol. Either way, I can relate to your post; I may wind up taking a similar path as you.

Cheers,

Alice

Quote from: Kirey on January 14, 2015, 08:04:02 AM
What do you consider as full-time exactly? Wear a female cut t-shirt and skinny jeans and you can basically already be full-time. Just adjust your clothing style bit by bits. Eventually you feel it makes situations more awkward to try and present as a guy, than to just be you.

I've been through this exact feeling. I left a lot of my skinny jeans at him accidentally. So, I've had to dress overwhelmingly masculine on some day, and it's just so awkward for me.

Quote from: Falwynn Falconwind on January 14, 2015, 08:53:59 AM
I have given up on trying to be masculine.  In times when I think it might be a bit problematic for me, I will "dress down" and go more androgynous but not really any less female.

I recommend a bowl haircut like what my stylist did for me if you ever want to go undercover. Jk aLol.

Quote from: SarahBoo on January 14, 2015, 01:41:02 AM
I knew when the wild horse of my personality bolted the stables. 12 months ago :~)

x

Congratulations. :)

Quote from: Ara on January 14, 2015, 09:18:34 AM
My plan is to go full time when I feel confident about my ability to pass properly in public.  I have so so SO much respect for anyone who goes full time without HRT, without a lot of things.  If it was mandatory for my transition that I live as a woman before getting hormones then I just wouldn't be capable.   I admire people who can go full time in hostile situations, they must be tough as nails!

Really it has to be up to you as to when you reveal who you really are.  If you feel strong enough to do it now, then go ahead!

Thanks for the encouragement. I feel strong enough to at least ease into it. The hair causes problems, though lol. I suppose experimenting with makeup might also be a necessity, which will be a challenge since I live on an all-mal floor in my residence hall.

Alice

Quote from: Mariah2014 on January 14, 2015, 10:45:55 AM
As others have pointed out only you can actually answer that question as to when your ready to do that. I eased into it over a months time adding to what I was doing sliding from andro to fem pretty quickly. I didn't set any specific time table as to when I would reach presently completely, but it was all based on what and when I was ready to do things. You need to find a method that works best for you and use it including consulting your therapist. It felt right when I reached that point and at that point I could bare to present as male anymore and didn't try.
Mariah

Thanks for your input. I've felt compelled to establish a deadline of sorts as to when I should start presenting. I want to start next school year, and this is so that I can experience internships, etc. as female. That my university allows trans students to use their preferred name on school documents, etc., makes me feel even more compelled. Yet, it's stressful, as there is so much to learn in such a short time. But the idea you've put forth -- that maybe a timetable isn't necessary -- seems like it would be easier on my well-being.

Alice

Quote from: Cindy on January 14, 2015, 12:26:39 AM
Hi Jasper,

I went FT when I wasn't 'passing' and couldn't anyway. I came out at work where everyone knew me as a 'guy'. Yes I could still see 'him' in the mirror, and he hung around for quite awhile. But I felt I was ready as I wasn't interested in playing games anymore, I had accepted myself as the woman I am and I realised other peoples opinions meant nothing to me. It was my opinion of me that mattered.

I was lucky, people accepted me for who I am, the woman at work had no issues at all, I used the female loo from day one and no one questioned that at all. Guys were slower but I understand that, men are a bit lost in trying to get heir head around why anyone would want to be female - no matter how respectful they may be.

I did have short hair and I found a hairdresser who was happy to help me feminise my look as much as possible, they have been looking after me for three years now and I'm a bit of a favourite with them, and they are very special to me.

Yes I had been wearing female clothing most of my life and was comfortable walking and dressing appropriately for a woman my age and position. Being comfortable in your clothes is important but you can practice that at home, how to sit etc, how to go to the loo!

I also studied how women and men interact in public, you can do that at any shopping mall. Women do treat other women differently and you need to be comfortable with that as well.

This journey is different for all of us, I tend to emphasize self confidence above all else, but for some girls looks or voice are more important. So as for when? The only correct answer is when you are ready. You may well want to start off by going shopping, or to the movies, somewhere where you are anonymous, to get use to the feel of life as you.

What was important for me was knowing that there is no going back, so I did very deliberately destroy any bridge that I had to return to being 'him'.

I have never regretted it, not for a single second.

Ahh! I just now read this wonderful post! Thanks to your anecdote, Cindy. :) Good luck to you.

Alice

Quote from: Jasper93 on January 14, 2015, 02:32:31 PM
Cool. "Viscerally" mean internally, by the way.

I know.

It was last March (2014) that I started getting male fail. I started wearing feminine tops but I still had men's jeans (hadn't found a good source of tall jeans for my 6'7" self yet.) I started getting ma'am except for right before and after electolysis. Then what sealed the deal was I was at a client's office and one of the women (who has been a big supporter of my transitioning) asked if I had left a ring in the women's bathroom. I hadn't started to use it there as it was in an 4 story office building with a common bathrooms on every floor. I told her it wasn't mine and that I hadn't been using the women's bathroom yet. She then said to me that it was time that I did, since she wasn't seeing male in me anymore. I was getting weird looks in the men's room as well. From that point on, I went full time. Two weeks later I went on a business trip to Orlando to demonstrate our software at a conference presenting female the entire time (despite having a male ID.) Used the women's room the whole time and no issues. I was so nervous using the women's room at a rest stop on the NJ Turnpike with some many people inside. No issues at all.

I think you assume people have hostile intent when they don't Jasper and I think it makes you come off as if you have a bad attitude although you probably don't.

When I was getting gendered as female more often than not, when not presenting as female. That's when I started doing it deliberately.

First, there isn't really an end to transition.  Each step you take moves you toward milestones along the path of becoming your authentic self.  Think of it as an assisted process of learning to accept yourself.

Part of the socialization process for guys revolves around shaming each other for feminine/gay behavior.  It's a group dynamic of self moderation, and the group works harder to impose on individuals they see at risk.  If you present as yourself and confident in either genders, they won't hassle you nearly as much.  At least not for the same reasons.  And be very careful about reciprocating any flirtation, even if they're super cute.

I spent a little over a year transitioning in stealth, and didn't realize how much pain I was inflicting on myself by hiding myself for so long.  I highly recommend presenting as female in a safe environment as soon as possible.  The sooner you can express yourself safely, the sooner you'll begin to assuage doubts that creep up.  Ask your therapist if you can change before sessions in a safe place so you can at least present during therapy.  Having even one person see your presenting  as female and accept you is a very profound thing.

I made the initial post about that in relation to your sig, yes, it is true.

I apologise that I have stepped on your toes about that apparently and I wish you the very best in your journey.

I was only trying to help.

Have a great day!

 :police:

Let's stay on topic people, any more personal attacks or bickering and penalties will be issued

Thank you

V M

I went full time before HRT. I just got tired of living to other peoples idea's and home made rules of "normalcy". That translated into courage and complete belief in myself. After that I have no problems in public or have since day one. Passing is 80% total belief in yourself and without belief in yourself it throws a huge spotlight on you which leads to unwarranted attention. Free your mind and the girl will follow, I promise. :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on January 16, 2015, 03:31:03 PM
I went full time before HRT. I just got tired of living to other peoples idea's and home made rules of "normalcy". That translated into courage and complete belief in myself. After that I have no problems in public or have since day one. Passing is 80% total belief in yourself and without belief in yourself it throws a huge spotlight on you which leads to unwarranted attention. Free your mind and the girl will follow, I promise. :)

Please do not take offense at what I'm going to say as I really like and respect you, but... People gender you based on what they see and how you sound. In order to pass you have to least look the part. If I'm going out in boy mode, without putting any effort into presenting female whatsoever, no HRT, no makeup, I'm not going to pass as a woman no matter how much confidence or belief in myself I may have. You talk about courage and having belief in yourself and I do agree you that it's very positive to let go of all expectations and present as yourself if it's safe and does make many people respect you. So you may think you are not drawing attention, but in fact people are respecting your choice to present whichever way you want regardless of whether they see you as a man or a woman. Maybe some even clocked you when you started (because based on what I see from the avatar, there's no way you would be clocked now!!!), but they do have respect for your feelings and won't stare. When you're genuine, people respect you more. But that won't itself make you pass as woman. I believe it can be misleading to say otherwise.

Passing can be lots of work depending on how much you are masculinized. Hiding the beard shadow and learning how to speak in a feminine pitch and intonation is probably the most important. Then presentation and makeup. But whatever, what do I know?

Just giving my personal experience in the hopes it would help.

I will go back to the pasture now. Maybe I should not have come back.

Good luck with your transition poster. :)

Personal experience here:

I was wearing girls jeans and tops, or skinny guys jeans way before I started HRT. They where geeky type t's nothing overtly feminine but I was already getting the odd "Oh <church bell> that's a guy". Hormones have just given me the natural shape.  Now I'm a jeans and t shirt girl (except my hunt for a tartan skirt in house of Windsor colours). So back then I wasn't worried about needing breast forms, needing to use the ladies, wearing a dress (I had long coloured hair). I presented as me you saw me as the gender you saw me as. I just didn't give one flying <church bell> what you thought.


Now for you:

This is really a question only you can answer BUT

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on January 16, 2015, 03:31:03 PM
I went full time before HRT. I just got tired of living to other peoples idea's and home made rules of "normalcy". That translated into courage and complete belief in myself. After that I have no problems in public or have since day one. Passing is 80% total belief in yourself and without belief in yourself it throws a huge spotlight on you which leads to unwarranted attention. Free your mind and the girl will follow, I promise. :)

This passage yes and these two points yes yes yes. Whenever you are uncomfortable in anything you will standout way more then you would if you felt like you belong or second guessing yourself. It may be a little bit rocky for you to begin with but if you hold your head up high and show the world you don't care. You will find all this becomes second nature to you, and you should find yourself having a different dynamic with those around you.

This can be a tough decision you have to make but passing is all about that grey thing between the ears. Once you believe you can do it you can, and that just takes confidence. That is what we're all here for.

Good luck on your decision

Quote from: immortal gypsy on January 16, 2015, 07:15:19 PM
Personal experience here:

I was wearing girls jeans and tops, or skinny guys jeans way before I started HRT. They where geeky type t's nothing overtly feminine but I was already getting the odd "Oh <church bell> that's a guy". Hormones have just given me the natural shape.  Now I'm a jeans and t shirt girl (except my hunt for a tartan skirt in house of Windsor colours). So back then I wasn't worried about needing breast forms, needing to use the ladies, wearing a dress (I had long coloured hair). I presented as me you saw me as the gender you saw me as. I just didn't give one flying <church bell> what you thought.


Now for you:

This is really a question only you can answer BUT
This passage yes and these two points yes yes yes. Whenever you are uncomfortable in anything you will standout way more then you would if you felt like you belong or second guessing yourself. It may be a little bit rocky for you to begin with but if you hold your head up high and show the world you don't care. You will find all this becomes second nature to you, and you should find yourself having a different dynamic with those around you.

This can be a tough decision you have to make but passing is all about that grey thing between the ears. Once you believe you can do it you can, and that just takes confidence. That is what we're all here for.

Good luck on your decision

Thanks to the narrative! I've taken a little bit of a leap since I initiated this thread -- and yes, it necessitated a lot of confidence to do this -- but the last two days, I've put a not-even-noticeable amount of makeup on my face to feminize my complexion a little. I see it as my first step towards presenting, and whether it was because of the makeup or because of my confidence from wearing it, I only got sir'd\man'd three times at work in the past couple of days, as opposed to the usual twenty or more lol. I take people's orders each day, so it requires a lot of interaction.

And I'm convinced that the guys on my dorm floor have started assigning me to the "third gender" because they're picking up on cues I give out. Like a thousand times a day before my Xmas break, they'd say "Sup, man" to me each time I passed them by, and that's only happened once in the last week. Somehow it turned into "Sup, Tyler? (my given name)".

So, I mean, it's a process for sure. I feel relieved that the same holds true for everyone else. :)

Quote from: Auroramarianna on January 16, 2015, 04:48:10 PM
Please do not take offense at what I'm going to say as I really like and respect you, but... People gender you based on what they see and how you sound. In order to pass you have to least look the part. If I'm going out in boy mode, without putting any effort into presenting female whatsoever, no HRT, no makeup, I'm not going to pass as a woman no matter how much confidence or belief in myself I may have. You talk about courage and having belief in yourself and I do agree you that it's very positive to let go of all expectations and present as yourself if it's safe and does make many people respect you. So you may think you are not drawing attention, but in fact people are respecting your choice to present whichever way you want regardless of whether they see you as a man or a woman. Maybe some even clocked you when you started (because based on what I see from the avatar, there's no way you would be clocked now!!!), but they do have respect for your feelings and won't stare. When you're genuine, people respect you more. But that won't itself make you pass as woman. I believe it can be misleading to say otherwise.

Passing can be lots of work depending on how much you are masculinized. Hiding the beard shadow and learning how to speak in a feminine pitch and intonation is probably the most important. Then presentation and makeup. But whatever, what do I know?

Thanks, both of you, for your contributions to my post! I hear oftentimes that passing is all in confidence -- even my therapist made this statement -- but to me, this doesn't hold.

In my own experience, which surely varies from that of others, I got gendered as female when I least expected it. At the two-month mark, a woman at a restaurant said to me, "What can I get for you tonight., ma'am?" I assure you that I wasn't presenting OR confident that early on. More recently, my mom took a pic of me and my grandma and put it on FB. I begged for it to be taken down due to how I looked, but many people asked my mom who the redhead girl was with my grandma." I have a lot of these stories. I just cannot see how confidence is central to passing. :(
I kind of wish it were. :(

Quote from: Damara on January 15, 2015, 03:38:37 AM
When I was getting gendered as female more often than not, when not presenting as female. That's when I started doing it deliberately.

This has been kind of my plan. I think I'm at like 50\50 right now... Time couldn't move faster...

Quote from: Seras on January 15, 2015, 03:09:02 AM
I think you assume people have hostile intent when they don't Jasper and I think it makes you come off as if you have a bad attitude although you probably don't.

*Alice

No attitude; I just speak up. Was I right about the negative reference to my signature? Yes.

Is it likely that posts made by that same person from thereon -- all of which weren't contributing to the topic, but instead essentially bragging -- were intended to kind of make me feel annoyed, at the least? Likely.

I'm over it now, however, and I acknowledge that there's a time and place to speak up. And I can't handle grudges, so all is well again.

Alice

Quote from: Obfuskatie on January 15, 2015, 04:02:34 AM
First, there isn't really an end to transition.  Each step you take moves you toward milestones along the path of becoming your authentic self.  Think of it as an assisted process of learning to accept yourself.

Part of the socialization process for guys revolves around shaming each other for feminine/gay behavior.  It's a group dynamic of self moderation, and the group works harder to impose on individuals they see at risk.  If you present as yourself and confident in either genders, they won't hassle you nearly as much.  At least not for the same reasons.  And be very careful about reciprocating any flirtation, even if they're super cute.

I spent a little over a year transitioning in stealth, and didn't realize how much pain I was inflicting on myself by hiding myself for so long.  I highly recommend presenting as female in a safe environment as soon as possible.  The sooner you can express yourself safely, the sooner you'll begin to assuage doubts that creep up.  Ask your therapist if you can change before sessions in a safe place so you can at least present during therapy.  Having even one person see your presenting  as female and accept you is a very profound thing.

I actually think I'm going to give your wonderful idea a try -- that I should consider presenting as female during therapy. Can't believe I didn't think of that! I am essentially in pain for never getting to present. I refrain from doing so around my family so that they don't potentially feel uncomfortable, and concurrently, I can't quite present at school due to my living situation. I intend to mark "transgender" on next year's housing application, however, so that I can actually be myself without potentially drawing attention.

Alice

Quote from: Jasper93 on January 16, 2015, 11:09:22 PM
In my own experience, which surely varies from that of others, I got gendered as female when I least expected it. At the two-month mark, a woman at a restaurant said to me, "What can I get for you tonight., ma'am?" I assure you that I wasn't presenting OR confident that early on. More recently, my mom took a pic of me and my grandma and put it on FB. I begged for it to be taken down due to how I looked, but many people asked my mom who the redhead girl was with my grandma." I have a lot of these stories. I just cannot see how confidence is central to passing. :(
I kind of wish it were. :(

First, this is a great thread you started. And I love that you hold your position with so much conviction. For those who were not born intersexed and don't already have the advantage of looking more female than male even before starting HRT, deciding when and how to start presenting as a woman, is crucial.

This thing that is happening to you happened and still happens to me as a regular occurrence. Many a time I get gendered female when I least expect it (for example when I go out with my father in androgynous mode, because my parents don't approve of my transition), and yet some attendant, panhandler, or a kid or whatever, out of nowhere, calls me miss or ma'am right in front of my dad, but he pretends not to notice haha.

Then other times when I actually do present myself nicely, and I like what I see in the mirror to some extent (I never really like it completely, just tolerate it enough to have the guts to go out in public as a female), some idiot, usually an older person, calls me young man or even worse, "sir" and I am just as baffled by that as when I don't expect to be called miss. I mean, lots of times it's totally out of my control the way people perceive me.

But I can tell you this, and this is my personal case:
I consider myself androgynous-looking, not by choice, just by luck, even after more than five years HRT, orchi, trachea shave and other things. I wish I looked very female, but that's not in my genes. So, when one person is like me, androgynous-looking even if not by choice, but rather by fate, luck, destiny or whatever you wish to call it, THEN confidence plays a huge role in deciding your gender for others who may be trying to figure out what gender you are.

I've seen that when I am confident as a female, believe it or not, people who have called me "young man", suddenly call me "miss", like as if I was a totally different person than the one I was a couple of days before!

That is because when I am confident and really feeling like a woman no matter what the rest of the world may think of me, it sort of radiates into others, like sort of a feminine energy very different than the one I give out when I feel non-confident and hesitant about my womanhood.

But yes, the physical part is always paramount. When I like, even if just a little, what I see in the mirror just good enough for me to think "I can be seen as a woman by others like this" then I'm good enough to go and take the chance. But when I don't feel that way, many times I even decide not to go out, even cancelling an appointment if necessry --that hapened with my last appointment with my shrink and I haven't gone to see him again--.

Bottom line, IMHO, looks are the most important of course, if a person looks decidedly feminine naturally, even if she is super-shy --talk about Adrien in Rocky 1 for example--, she will never be misgendered, based purely on physical looks, and confidence becomes a non-issue in that case.

But if a person looks androgynous or "confusing" purely by physical appearance, then confidence, mannerisms, voice and attitude will play a huge part in defining her as a woman, when the other person is still trying to figure out the gender in a nano-second (like a cashier at a supermarket or a convenience store).

Bottom line: I'd say one starts presenting as female, when one is barely comfortable with what one sees in the mirror, enough to feel like others will perceive the same in you. And of course, a bit of foundation, blush, lip and eye color just to make your face look softer and have a nice contrast as opposed to a male face that looks plain, as well as a nice smile and a friendly face as opposed to a long serious face, will add an extra mile to your feminine appearance and help you not be mistaken for anything other than a female!

Cheers

Bibi B.

Quote from: Jasper93 on January 16, 2015, 11:30:10 PM
I actually think I'm going to give your wonderful idea a try -- that I should consider presenting as female during therapy. Can't believe I didn't think of that! I am essentially in pain for never getting to present. I refrain from doing so around my family so that they don't potentially feel uncomfortable, and concurrently, I can't quite present at school due to my living situation. I intend to mark "transgender" on next year's housing application, however, so that I can actually be myself without potentially drawing attention.

Alice

I'm glad I could help even a little.  I know my own issues with working up to presenting would have been a lot easier to deal with if I had a better outlet. 

For your family to start accepting you, I think you'll have to take a harder approach.  Remind them that it isn't your decision to become trans, you are transgender.  They will come around hopefully as soon as they see you happier.  At first, my mom wasn't sure how serious I was, she just knew I was miserable and feared I'd change my mind eventually.  It took me almost 2 years to show her how dedicated I was and get her excited about having a daughter.  I think she was mostly afraid of losing her son, which she did a little, but I'm still me just with better clothes and prettier [emoji2]. I'm also much less afraid of wanting to do girly things, or voice the feminine opinions I had.  I'm pretty up front and honest about nearly everything now, depending on decorum and discretion.


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