Susan's Place Transgender Resources

For those unaware of Dr. Haben, his website is here: http://professionalvoice.org/feminization.aspx

Dena's experience with Dr. Haben: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,192393.0.html

Cadence's experience with Dr. Haben: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,188034.0.html

And now, my experience:

I arrived in Rochester on September 15, and checked into the Rochester Airport Marriott immediately. The hotel sent a courtesy shuttle when I called, so I didn't have to spend any money on a cab.

En route to Rochester
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2F2015-09-14%2520Rochester%2FDSC_3783_zpsm8dh3mbu.jpg&hash=245488fb725ad6ccb80acab8064253931370196c)

There's a Chipotle near the Rochester Airport Marriott!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2F2015-09-14%2520Rochester%2FDSC_3784_zpsztxvkkz1.jpg&hash=8ed218b8dcc7f207250d4804ddd15a570fae7748)

View from my hotel room:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2F2015-09-14%2520Rochester%2FDSC_3785_zpsvcrklbm3.jpg&hash=0e92da0bb92909966bc29ebbbafebf580be4b6e6)

The shuttle normally doesn't go take guests to Dr. Haben's clinic because it's farther away, but due to a mix-up (they thought I was going to Unity Hospital), they offered to drive me to 980 Westfall Road, where Dr. Haben's clinic is located.

Dr. Haben was very personable, thorough and detailed in his explanation of what exactly he planned to do, and he gave me a detailed physical examination. This included a photo of my vocal folds, and feeling the movement of my thyroid when entering head voice to determine if the CTA would be good for me. I had lots of movement in my thyroid when going into my head voice, which Dr. Haben said was a good thing.

So I show up at the appointed time on September 16 at the Park Ridge Operating Theater (part of the Unity Hospital complex), which is when I make full payment of the outstanding amount. (about $3,300 after the initial $3,500 reservation deposit).

The nurses, anesthesiologist, and Dr. Haben prep me for surgery (changed into the gown, IV drip, heart rate monitors, etc), and that's the last thing I remember before waking up in the recovery room.

Prep:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2F2015-09-14%2520Rochester%2FDSC_3786_zps5z4f3omt.jpg&hash=4dfbaaabad8b3aa034173f64232c1ac42cb7570a)

My memory is a bit hazy at this point, so I don't remember the exact order of what happened, but I took a walk down the hallway with my nurse (groggy and nauseous from the general anesthesia), tried to pee (unsuccessfully), and had a bite (food was good, but it really, really hurt to swallow).

Dinner (stuffed chicken with rice and carrots):
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2F2015-09-14%2520Rochester%2FDSC_3788_zpsv8s76gi5.jpg&hash=2a1818479600f05aaea9a0237fc3c67020a88b3c)

Throat incision:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2F2015-09-14%2520Rochester%2FDSC_3796_zpsltzp8ezf.jpg&hash=e426f35fa4dbfde346f815cfd902a98d370dd29d)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2F2015-09-14%2520Rochester%2FDSC_3804_zpses8cwfbw.jpg&hash=ef8a4aa918f8c4c04e85a164fccc51066e191d9d)

Throughout the night, the nurses would come every 1-2 hours to administer more pain meds, anti-clotting meds, antibiotics, walk me down the hallway, refill my IV drip, etc. I was only allowed to use the restroom with a nurse present (outside the restroom), because being under general anesthesia puts you at risk of falling. I managed to pee a little on the 3rd or 4th attempt, which according to the nurse is fairly typical effect of going under GA. I'd describe it as extreme shy bladder. You release the voluntary sphincter, but the involuntary one refuses to relax.

Ask for popsicles!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2F2015-09-14%2520Rochester%2FDSC_3805_zps0sguwnr4.jpg&hash=bb847f196e37f89cbeb38186f03080e859db4283)

I had a few :)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2F2015-09-14%2520Rochester%2FDSC_3809_zpsyo3svqot.jpg&hash=77a1529923bbf574ee1cbe4f17ee4a41cc78cd17)

This went on for the rest of the night, until the effects of the GA (mostly) wore off in the morning, and I was cleared for discharge. Except for one male security guard, and another male surgical PA, everyone else was exceptionally friendly, respectful, and used the right pronouns throughout.

Breakfast the next day (french toast & sausages):
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2F2015-09-14%2520Rochester%2FDSC_3810_zpspefq1lbt.jpg&hash=6b8ea9ab575e6a4ebbbea679393a3e3c8e17ebb3)

IV drip:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2F2015-09-14%2520Rochester%2FDSC_3813_zpswgcegbrl.jpg&hash=34df1d6163f5c688c6534b81e8abe55c29ee69c1)

View from the recovery room:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2F2015-09-14%2520Rochester%2FDSC_3815_zpsbfg712sg.jpg&hash=b95b646ca8378c5f02ad2f63c36858b20f60c8cd)

Recovery room:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2F2015-09-14%2520Rochester%2FDSC_3816_zpsxfgfghhp.jpg&hash=f0d17af6435a39635270fced6d11160ba4be5b78)

I left the hospital on the 17th and checked out of the Marriott the same day, and checked into a cheaper hotel, because I have to stay an additional 7 days for the post-op check-up. This is mandatory for patients not from the surrounding area (NY, Ontario, Quebec), so doing this saves me a bundle.

I even got a farewell flower! I gave it to the front desk girls at the Marriott.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2F2015-09-14%2520Rochester%2FDSC_3820_zpscur2j9dy.jpg&hash=bb97bb746ac63c682ab619ac96983df3bc094f91)

All in all, everything went smoothly. I came down with a slight sore throat the day before I left for Rochester. It's still tapering off, and that has made the strict voice rest impossible to comply with. I ended coughing up some phlegm and made some high-pitched vocalizations while doing so, but Dr. Haben assured me that the sutures were probably fine, as long as there wasn't any significant pain or bleeding.

I had no loose teeth after the operation, and tip of my tongue is numb but my sense of taste seems unaffected.

Except for a minor anxiety attack earlier today where I thought the CTA made my throat bulge out, and this was all a big mistake, I haven't stopped smiling and being on cloud 9 despite the ongoing discomfort and pain.

More to come as I recover, and many thanks once again to Cadence & Dena for sharing their invaluable experience and results, without which I may not have taken the plunge. You two are the best! :D

You had the same hospital meals I had but nobody told me about the popsicles and I sure could have used them. My first attempt at peeing failed and I had a full bladder but the second one worked. It was a good thing because with without the popsicles, I was really pounding down the water to reduce the pain (no pain medication). They gave me my blue gown pretty quick because they were getting tired of calls for assistance to go to the bathroom. Also another difference is they put the IV in the back of my hand instead of my arm like yours. Might be because I have some really big veins in the back of my hand and they were easy to find. It was a problem when I washed my hands after a bathroom break because I had to keep it dry.

As for the coughing, you need to resist the urge to bring your vocal cords together. Instead you lean forward and exhale fast. It doesn't work as well as a cough but that combine with the ever present supply of cold water, it contains the cough pretty well without the cough medicine. I still have an almost full bottle of the stuff missing only one dose and I was able to avoid coughing for a month

I will await additional reports. By the way, I think the hotel gives the hospital a half price rate from what I saw on my bill. If I can get rates like that, I may stay there more often.

It sounds like you had a great experience! I'm so happy for you! Best wishes for a speedy recovery!

Dena, I wish someone had told me about the popsicles earlier. I only found out about them in the morning, and they really helped numbed the pain in my throat. :) It's weird that we had the exact same menu! I wonder if they literally serve the same thing every day.

I had my IV drip on my wrist, because that was my most visible vein. I've had IV drips on the back of my hand, and like you said they get in the way and always getting twisted or pulled.

I've actually done the exact same thing you said, where I lean on the bathroom counter with both arms and exhale sharply without engaging my vocal folds, and got rid of a good amount of phlegm that way. I'm just deathly afraid of harming my vocal folds and affecting the long-term results.

I suppose I'm being paranoid, and everything should be fine as long as I don't tear the sutures somehow. No bleeding or unusual pain apart from the usual discomfort, so far.

I'll post recordings as soon as I'm ready to. :) Rainy day in Rochester today...nice and cool.

The hospital most likely has a weekly menu and as Dr Haben has surgical Wednesday, so we both had the same meal. I needed to be there by 6am and I think I was his first surgery of the day. I didn't meet anybody else having surgery but I passed a small woman in the hotel that I said hi to and she had an over breathy voice. I suspect she may have been a CIS there for surgery with Dr Haben. Kind of wish I asked.

If your reread the instructions, you are supposed to avoid coughing, talking and sneezing but accidents do happen. I said a few words after I was home when I shouldn't have. The truth is the surgery is pretty rugged and as long as you don't have a coughing fit, you shouldn't damage the voice. Do your best to avoid all noise but don't kick your self if you slip up because one little mistake isn't going to harm the surgery.

Because I feared making noise so much, the week before the surgery I practiced clearing the mucus without using my vocal cords. It was a big help after surgery as my first acton after surgery was to clear out a mouth full.

Don't plan on putting up a voice recording soon. Your voice is really going to sound bad the first time you use it. It was two weeks after surgery before I could get more than a whisper out of it so I continued silence until the voice could do a bit more. I drove my neighbor up the wall because she hated it when I wrote notes to her.

My speech therapist said that you should expect phlegm to build up on your cords. It's your body's way of protecting, since it sees this as trauma to them. It doesn't want anything worse to happen. :) She said to clear my throat, avoid the usual eh-hm! action, and instead make a soft H like sound. Basically, what you're doing by breathing out and not engaging your vocal cords when you do it. Then take a sip of water to finish the clearing. Lather, rinse, repeat. I hope this helps. :)

I found that those Aloe Vera drinks they sold in Seoul and also sell in stores now everywhere were really soothing for my vocal chords - milk or yoghurt on the other hand produced more phlegm. I always carried a little bottle of water with me for weeks, to make sure I can wet my throat if it itches and to avoid coughing

Update:

Nothing much to report, except that my phlegm has gradually changed from green to clear, indicating I've recovered from the sore throat I came down with just before the operation.

Showered and washed my hair in the basin for the first time since the morning of the operation, so I'm feeling clean and refreshed now.

Discomfort in my throat is much better, and is now comparable to a regular sore throat or cough. I can now swallow without excessive pain, unlike the first 2 days.

I've cleared my throat a few more times in line with Cadence and Dena's directions, but very gently, and so far so good. No bleeding or pain, so I think what Dena says about the surgical site being far more rugged that one would think is true. Whatever sounds have come out, sound very high-pitched and falsetto-ish, but I suspect that will change and evolve as the site heals and the swelling goes down.

Anjaq, I'm a big fan of those aloe vera drinks, and I usually have a bottle or two in my fridge, but I'm stuck in the middle of nowhere here with no car, so unfortunately I'll have to wait till I get home. Thanks for the tip though!

The surgical tape over my neck incision is also starting to come loose on the bottom, and there is no discomfort from the incision. It's itchy, but I think that's due to the tape. Can't wait to see what it looks like when it comes off!

I'm also having a great hair day, so there's that. :D

Yes, the first shower after getting out of the hospital. The day I left I had to clean up in the sink and it just didn't feel right.

As for the noise you make, that can be all over the place. Because I had so much swelling my voice was a whisper for a while. I think the steroids did stop the swelling for a while but once they wore off, I lost my voice.

I'd show you my neck scar but after 35 years, it sags a little like the rest of me  ;D

Thank you for sharing your experience, I'm having the triple with Dr. Haben next Wednesday so your info is extremely useful!

I am VERY excited to see what the outcome of this surgery is like for you! Thank you for making this thread!

Jollyjoy: I just notice you slipped in the back door exactly the same way I did and in the same section. Welcome to Susan's place but we have a little business  to get out of the way
We issue to all new members the following links so you will best be able to use the web site.

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Jollyjoy & Roni, I'm glad this is helping! There was a dearth of feedback on Dr. Haben apart from Dena's & Cadence's threads, so I'm happy to make this decision a little easier for someone else. I had to decide between Yeson and Dr. Haben, and for me it came down to cost and the availability of both the tracheal shave and the CTA procedure that Dr. Haben provides.

As a reference point, Dr. Haben said my speaking frequency was about 115hz, which is why he recommended the CTA procedure.

Please feel free to message me if either of you have any questions. :)

Dena, I have an old scar under my chin from a bad fall when I was a kid, that is flesh-coloured, so I'm not too worried about the scarring, but I am hoping for the best!

The surgical scar will be a thin line and heal much better than the injury. I have never had anyone notice mine unless I pointed it out but I admit to covering it with makeup for a few years before I became comfortable with it. Most people if they saw it would have no clue why the scar is there so you can make up a really wild story about someone holding knife to you neck but through super human strength you over powered them  ;D It will be interesting to see how your voice turns out pitch wise because my male voice was around 90-100 Hz and my trained voice 130-140 hz but the doctor never mentioned changing the procedure to a triple. Had he offered additional hope, I would have handed him my plastic on the spot.

Quote from: runaway on September 21, 2015, 03:18:38 AM
Jollyjoy & Roni, I'm glad this is helping! There was a dearth of feedback on Dr. Haben apart from Dena's & Cadence's threads, so I'm happy to make this decision a little easier for someone else. I had to decide between Yeson and Dr. Haben, and for me it came down to cost and the availability of both the tracheal shave and the CTA procedure that Dr. Haben provides.

As a reference point, Dr. Haben said my speaking frequency was about 115hz, which is why he recommended the CTA procedure.

Please feel free to message me if either of you have any questions. :)

Dena, I have an old scar under my chin from a bad fall when I was a kid, that is flesh-coloured, so I'm not too worried about the scarring, but I am hoping for the best!

Eva also started a Haben thread so that is another data point.

Quote from: iKate on September 21, 2015, 10:00:35 AM
Eva also started a Haben thread so that is another data point.

Warmbody also posted a thread about her experiences and had a great result.

Yes, I don't know why Eva and warmbody's threads slipped my mind, but I remember reading them. Thanks for the reminder.

Eva's thread (glottoplasty only): https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,177709.0/

warmbody's thread (triple): https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,183384.0/

Been there two times! The second time was better but I'm still not happy with the outcome


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Very stressful


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Lyndsey, what happened the first time and when you went back?

Update (surgery date: September 16):

Pain in my throat is now mild, almost completely gone. I can swallow normally, and I suspect the tightness in my throat is mostly the tape pulling on my skin.

Phlegm is mostly clear, sometimes a very light green. I occasionally notice tiny specks of pink/red, which I assume to be blood. I'm not sure if this is due to me clearing my throat (carefully), or just dried blood from the surgical site dissolving into the phlegm.

Earlier I reported no change in taste except for some numbness in my tongue. The numbness has faded and is almost gone, but my sensitivity to minty flavours seems to have been heightened. I noticed this when taking my estrace pills sublingually, where before I never noticed any minty taste at all.

Some points of information:

- Dr. Haben uses dissolvable sutures on the vocal folds and permament sutures on the crico-thyroids, because the vocal folds are exposed to the environment. External permanent sutures would present an infection risk. I understand Dr. Kim's procedure covers the permanent suture with mucus membrane that heals over, so just two different ways to achieve the same goal.

- Dr. Haben assured me that the effects of the CTA are permanent and irreversible once fully healed, which allayed my concerns about the sutures coming undone or snapping due to trauma. He said even cutting out the sutures afterwards would not reverse the effects.

- For the glottoplasty procedure, Dr. Haben explained that a CTA cannot be substituted by further shortening the vocal folds instead. Over-shortening the vocal folds makes the voice sound weird and unnatural. This makes sense if compared to a string instrument of some kind. (using a capo and tightening the low E string on a guitar to mimic a thinner string, rather than using a high fret without tuning the string)

- During my assessment, Dr. Haben instructed me to go from a chest to head voice, and he felt the movement of my larynx when my voice broke into head voice. Basically, more movement in the larynx is ideal. I didn't ask why, figuring the explanation would be too technical for me to understand.
***conjecture on my part: since the CTA permanent contracts the crico-thyroids partially, having more movement would mean more range is preserved, since there'll be more "left-over" free movement afterwards, if that makes sense.

And that's all for now! :)

The reason for moving the larynx (and I might get an argument from others on this) is it reduces the size of the cavity above the cord making the resonance higher. This filters some of the lower tones out you voice leaving the higher feminine sounding tones. I understand that CIS females do this naturally and I have confirmed it working with FTMs on their voice. I can lower their voice by teaching them how to relax the area above the larynx. With FTM, the voices don't go all way to the male range, but they can move into the alto range which when combined with monotone speech will gender questionable or male with a very high voice. I have seen FTM doing this even after T had an effect so to get the range they desire, they have to learn how to relax.

The first time the stitch came out during the healing process and my voice did not change one bit. The s Second time he took and put two stitches in and my voice has changed but not half as much as I thought it would. And that surgery was in April of this year. My voice is still a bit raspy and getting better all the time. Would I go threw this again I can't say. It is like rolling the dice. It may or may not work. And you don't know what the outcome will be for around 6 months to a year. I do have to say the doctor Haben is a wonderful person and he dose try hard.


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Hi Dena, Dr. Haben explained to me that the CTA procedure mimics the contraction of the crico-thyroid muscles when moving into head voice, which stretches the vocal folds, increasing the pitch. The CTA procedure makes permanently stretches the vocal folds in this manner, increasing pitch and cutting out the lower frequency. You're right that resonance is probably affected too.

Lyndsey, I'm sorry about your bad experience, but may I ask how the suture came out? Was it due to Dr. Haben's error, or was it something you did by accident?

I don't know why the stitches came out but it was hard to go back a second time. I have it redone on April 29th 2015 and my voice is better now but still not that great by any means.   I will not go back a third time as in my opinion it is not worth the time and healing to change  my voice so little.


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Sorry for the lack of updates! I had a lot of resting, recovering and stuff to do in general when I got back home on Friday.

I'll post with more detail, along with recordings and photos later, but short story: MY VOICE IS COMPLETELY PASSABLE WITHOUT ANY EFFORT TO ALTER PITCH OR RESONANCE!

On Day 8, I had to use it several times on the trip back home, and I met up with a friend for supper the same day, and I just sounded like a woman with a bad cold. Even random noises like clearing my throat, coughing or sighing sound female now.

Frequences according to my smartphone tuner app:

Clearing throat, coughing, sighing: 240hz
Comfortable ahhhh sound, with no phlegm: 235-240hz
Ahhhh sound after voice is fatigued (2-3 minutes of constant talking): 180hz (note: it doesn't drop by itself; I push it lower so it doesn't break up. Speaking at a higher frequency for too long irritates my vocal folds.)
Lowest frequency possible, with phlegm cleared without glottal fry: 155hz
Highest non-falsetto frequency possible, with phlegm cleared: 330hz

Sidenote: My old speaking frequency was 115hz according to Dr. Haben, comfortable ahhh was 130hz. No voice training whatsoever. Also, at the same frequencies I was capable of making before, my voice sounds completely different, like a woman trying to sound like a man.

Earlier I posted on Cadence's thread that my larynx looked more prominent, and it turns out I wasn't imagining it. Dr. Haben mentioned that there was still substantial swelling at my one-week post-op, and even then it's already gone down noticeably. The new web has already formed nicely at one-week, and Dr. Haben said I'm no longer in danger of damaging; using my voice less at this point will just mean a full recovery sooner.

Lyndsey, I'm sorry you had to go through that, but I'm happy that you got it worked out, since any improvement can make a huge difference. Did you have the glottoplasty only, or the triple if you don't mind me asking?

YOU WIN! I'm happy for you! A little jeally too. I still gotta mess with my hyoid, but it's become second nature already. ;)

Are you in the Rochester area?? I have a lady friend there that I'll be visiting on and off. :)

Hey Cadence! Unfortunately I'm way over on the west, which was why I had to stay in Rochester for a week following my operation. I'll send you a message in a bit. :)

By the way now that you mention it, I think I do shift my larynx a little, but I do it almost unconsciously. It's not a strained effort by any means, just an adjustment, because I think I'll need a while to develop the proper muscle memory.

Update: comfortable ahhh is now 200hz, so it does seem to go down throughout the day with more use. My guess is using it irritates the folds, causing swelling and more phlegm to accumulate, increasing the mass and thickness of the vocal folds, thus lowering my pitch. Even at the lower pitch, my voice lacks the qualities that make it sound male. At worst, it sounds androgynous or the result of a bad cold (like Cadence's relaxed morning voice, but hoarser).

I'm still 100% elated with how everything has turned out so far, and I'm excited to see how things go in the coming weeks and months.

Omg! How exciting, I'm so happy for you! How do you think you had such a great prognosis in such a short amount of time with the CTA?

this seems like the best option for me, I think I'll be booking for November :3

Quote from: runaway on September 28, 2015, 10:34:57 AM
Sorry for the lack of updates! I had a lot of resting, recovering and stuff to do in general when I got back home on Friday.

I'll post with more detail, along with recordings and photos later, but short story: MY VOICE IS COMPLETELY PASSABLE WITHOUT ANY EFFORT TO ALTER PITCH OR RESONANCE!

On Day 8, I had to use it several times on the trip back home, and I met up with a friend for supper the same day, and I just sounded like a woman with a bad cold. Even random noises like clearing my throat, coughing or sighing sound female now.

Frequences according to my smartphone tuner app:

Clearing throat, coughing, sighing: 240hz
Comfortable ahhhh sound, with no phlegm: 235-240hz
Ahhhh sound after voice is fatigued (2-3 minutes of constant talking): 180hz (note: it doesn't drop by itself; I push it lower so it doesn't break up. Speaking at a higher frequency for too long irritates my vocal folds.)
Lowest frequency possible, with phlegm cleared without glottal fry: 155hz
Highest non-falsetto frequency possible, with phlegm cleared: 330hz

Sidenote: My old speaking frequency was 115hz according to Dr. Haben, comfortable ahhh was 130hz. No voice training whatsoever. Also, at the same frequencies I was capable of making before, my voice sounds completely different, like a woman trying to sound like a man.

Earlier I posted on Cadence's thread that my larynx looked more prominent, and it turns out I wasn't imagining it. Dr. Haben mentioned that there was still substantial swelling at my one-week post-op, and even then it's already gone down noticeably. The new web has already formed nicely at one-week, and Dr. Haben said I'm no longer in danger of damaging; using my voice less at this point will just mean a full recovery sooner.

Lyndsey, I'm sorry you had to go through that, but I'm happy that you got it worked out, since any improvement can make a huge difference. Did you have the glottoplasty only, or the triple if you don't mind me asking?

Congratulations!! Can't wait to test out my voice tomorrow! :)

Quote from: runaway on September 28, 2015, 10:34:57 AM
Sorry for the lack of updates! I had a lot of resting, recovering and stuff to do in general when I got back home on Friday.

I'll post with more detail, along with recordings and photos later, but short story: MY VOICE IS COMPLETELY PASSABLE WITHOUT ANY EFFORT TO ALTER PITCH OR RESONANCE!

On Day 8, I had to use it several times on the trip back home, and I met up with a friend for supper the same day, and I just sounded like a woman with a bad cold. Even random noises like clearing my throat, coughing or sighing sound female now.

Frequences according to my smartphone tuner app:

Clearing throat, coughing, sighing: 240hz
Comfortable ahhhh sound, with no phlegm: 235-240hz
Ahhhh sound after voice is fatigued (2-3 minutes of constant talking): 180hz (note: it doesn't drop by itself; I push it lower so it doesn't break up. Speaking at a higher frequency for too long irritates my vocal folds.)
Lowest frequency possible, with phlegm cleared without glottal fry: 155hz
Highest non-falsetto frequency possible, with phlegm cleared: 330hz

Sidenote: My old speaking frequency was 115hz according to Dr. Haben, comfortable ahhh was 130hz. No voice training whatsoever. Also, at the same frequencies I was capable of making before, my voice sounds completely different, like a woman trying to sound like a man.

Earlier I posted on Cadence's thread that my larynx looked more prominent, and it turns out I wasn't imagining it. Dr. Haben mentioned that there was still substantial swelling at my one-week post-op, and even then it's already gone down noticeably. The new web has already formed nicely at one-week, and Dr. Haben said I'm no longer in danger of damaging; using my voice less at this point will just mean a full recovery sooner.

Lyndsey, I'm sorry you had to go through that, but I'm happy that you got it worked out, since any improvement can make a huge difference. Did you have the glottoplasty only, or the triple if you don't mind me asking?

Oh my gosh! I am SO excited for you! This is making me a lot more confident for my upcoming surgery with him.

HUGE UPDATE!! :D

I'm sorry I've been missing in action for the past week, but I was too tired and drugged out to keep up with school work while in Rochester, so I had a lot of catching up to do when I got back.

First off: My first recording! http://vocaroo.com/i/s0OZXHUGEhDl (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0OZXHUGEhDl)
Note: Sorry about the quality and the constant clipping of the recording..not sure why that happened. My voice sounds a bit nasal cos my nose was a bit blocked when I made the recording.

There's gonna be some repetition below of what I've discussed in my recording, for those of you who can't listen to it at the moment, or don't wanna sit through the whole recording. :)

Pitch
My lowest, comfortable, and highest non-falsetto pitch hasn't changed much, and varies slightly depending on how much I've used it before, which usually drops my pitch about 10-15hz. This is probably due to swelling and accumulated phlegm, and it the pitch goes back up once I've had some time to recover.

Vocal Range
My non-falsetto range has actually increased! Prior to my triple procedure, my lowest pitch was about 90hz, and the highest about 190hz, about a 100hz range. Now it's 180hz to 330hz, about a 150hz range, which equates to a 50% increase! I can sing along with most female singers now, albeit very softly in an very breathy voice.

Passability
100%!!!! Ever since I started using it on the 8th day post-op, it's been completely passable, and it's only improved since. Despite my pushing my pitch lower initially due to the laryngitis and later on due to my mental block, it sounds female, and this includes coughing, sighing, clearing my throat, etc. While I could reach 180hz before and after, the other qualities of my voice has been feminized. Instead of bassy undertones, I now have sibilant overtones. This makes sense, since female vocal folds are shorter, thinner and tighter, and Dr. Haben's triple procedure does exactly that. I just sound like a woman recovering from a bad cold.

Incision scar
The scar looks good, and has been slowly fading. However, I have adhesion to my thyroid cartilage, which apparently is not uncommon with any surgical incision. It looks fine, but my skin is pulled up when I swallow. Dr. Haben has instructed me to massage it for 20 minutes 3 times a day with a hot towel in addition to neck rotation and shoulder stretching exercises to break up the adhesion.

Photo:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2FRecovery%2FDSC_3821_zpsadumncdl.jpg&hash=6aed7928c45a70b231d4332340fb1d68ca9b4cbb)

And that's it for now! I hope this helps those of you on the fence to decide. Personally, I have no regrets whatsoever, and I'm completely satisfied with the results, even though my voice hasn't even fully recovered yet. 8)

Audreelyn: I have no idea, but I think the mental block is a major reason for some of the lacklustre results. Those of us who had a trained passable voice, don't notice much of a difference because the brain is "locked" into the same frequency, that is achievable pre and post op. Despite looking female, I used a male voice pre-op, because my low range made a trained voice practically impossible, and I'd rather been seen as a very feminine guy, rather than a crossdresser, unpassable "->-bleeped-<-", etc (I know, internalized transphobia; I'm working on it :) ).

I think it helped that I speak more than one language, and I've had to learn to speak different versions of English in different accents, using different local colloquialisms, which made me more conscious of my voice, intonation, pitch, etc. I can see it being more difficult to break old habits if one only speaks one version of one language, and that's probably why both Dr. Kim at Yeson and Dr. Haben have a disclaimer that a passable voice requires voice training post-op.

In my case, I've just had to learn to relax my voice, and adjust my larynx to adjust the resonance of my voice. Currently I have to push it low, but that's because my voice gives out faster otherwise.

Roni, I think you'll be in good hands, and you have nothing to fear. Just follow the aftercare instructions and wait for the awesomeness of an effortless, passable voice, that will be hoarse and weak for a while. :)

I'm very happy for you, Runaway! Your results so far sound great. :) I noticed some adhesion from my larynx to the skin on my neck too. It thankfully went away on it's own. I didn't realize that there were specific steps I should be doing to help break it up! Your incision is coming along nicely! Are you using anything on it?

Nothing critical from me at this time. Your report is about 2 1/2 weeks and at that point I could barely speak. Even now your voice is holding out far longer that mine is at three months. I am still about a minute before my voice give out and you did the entire recording with little change. The pitch sounds good and while you voice could use a bit more inflection, that will come as you gain more control over it. After all, you have only been using the voice for less than two weeks. Even now the voice clearly genders female. My trained voice after surgery ranges from about 160 hz to around 430 hz so expect more range as the voice continues to heal.
I am very impressed with the voice sample and will wait to hear one after your voice has recovered more.

Thanks Cadence, you sound awesome too! :) I hope my adhesion resolves regardless, cos I'd hate to go under the knife again.

I haven't used anything on my scar so far, because Dr. Haben instructed me not to use anything on it until a month has passed from the date of the operation. After which I can use any combination of scar-removal gels, strips, lotions, etc. I would have thought moisturizer would be ok, but Dr. Haben said no when I asked. My scar is actually more red than it looks in the photo, cos my camera's white balance washed it out.

Still looks good so far though! I have notice one side of the scar has more adhesion, and that's the side that hadn't healed as well when the stitches were removed. Perhaps the adhesion detatches on its own as the wound heals? I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

Dena, thanks for the feedback! I could go down to 160hz a week ago, but my lowest possible pitch has been gradually increasing. Some mornings when I've just woken up, had some warm tea and cleared my throat, my comfortable pitch goes up to 230-240hz, and my lowest pitch becomes 190hz.

I'm so psyched to be unable to sound male even if I wanted to, but it's caused some awkwardness when I've had to answer phone calls. :)

Quote from: runaway on October 05, 2015, 07:57:36 PM
HUGE UPDATE!! :D

I'm sorry I've been missing in action for the past week, but I was too tired and drugged out to keep up with school work while in Rochester, so I had a lot of catching up to do when I got back.

First off: My first recording! http://vocaroo.com/i/s0OZXHUGEhDl (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0OZXHUGEhDl)
Note: Sorry about the quality and the constant clipping of the recording..not sure why that happened. My voice sounds a bit nasal cos my nose was a bit blocked when I made the recording.

There's gonna be some repetition below of what I've discussed in my recording, for those of you who can't listen to it at the moment, or don't wanna sit through the whole recording. :)

Pitch
My lowest, comfortable, and highest non-falsetto pitch hasn't changed much, and varies slightly depending on how much I've used it before, which usually drops my pitch about 10-15hz. This is probably due to swelling and accumulated phlegm, and it the pitch goes back up once I've had some time to recover.

Vocal Range
My non-falsetto range has actually increased! Prior to my triple procedure, my lowest pitch was about 90hz, and the highest about 190hz, about a 100hz range. Now it's 180hz to 330hz, about a 150hz range, which equates to a 50% increase! I can sing along with most female singers now, albeit very softly in an very breathy voice.

Passability
100%!!!! Ever since I started using it on the 8th day post-op, it's been completely passable, and it's only improved since. Despite my pushing my pitch lower initially due to the laryngitis and later on due to my mental block, it sounds female, and this includes coughing, sighing, clearing my throat, etc. While I could reach 180hz before and after, the other qualities of my voice has been feminized. Instead of bassy undertones, I now have sibilant overtones. This makes sense, since female vocal folds are shorter, thinner and tighter, and Dr. Haben's triple procedure does exactly that. I just sound like a woman recovering from a bad cold.

Incision scar
The scar looks good, and has been slowly fading. However, I have adhesion to my thyroid cartilage, which apparently is not uncommon with any surgical incision. It looks fine, but my skin is pulled up when I swallow. Dr. Haben has instructed me to massage it for 20 minutes 3 times a day with a hot towel in addition to neck rotation and shoulder stretching exercises to break up the adhesion.

Photo:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2FRecovery%2FDSC_3821_zpsadumncdl.jpg&hash=6aed7928c45a70b231d4332340fb1d68ca9b4cbb)

And that's it for now! I hope this helps those of you on the fence to decide. Personally, I have no regrets whatsoever, and I'm completely satisfied with the results, even though my voice hasn't even fully recovered yet. 8)

You sound very feminine, congrats! Your recovery has been so fast! During your recovery, did you find your voice voluntarily goes into falsetto at times?

Hey Jollyjoy,

I did actually, but it's subsided a lot since then! There're three possible reasons I can think of:

1) It was caused by the swelling, which has gone done since

2) I had to use my vocal muscles differently, and I've now gotten used to my new voice.

3) Pre-op I could only reach much of my present range by going into falsetto. Due to bone conduction of my voice, my brain thinks it's falsetto because of the pitch, even though it might not be.

I've asked a number of friends if my voice goes into a falsetto, and they've assured me that it doesn't, and that it actually sounds good, hoarseness and breathiness aside.

As for my recovery, I've always had a high metabolism with no health problems, so I generally heal a little faster than average. I don't smoke either, and I only drink on occasion in social settings, which probably doesn't hurt. :)

I've used the recovery period as an excuse to have more meat in my diet, and I've also been sleeping as much as possible. :D

 For what it's worth, I also noticed my muscle contracting into a falsetto type voice when attempting to speak about a week and a half after surgery. I wouldn't call it falsetto so much as a screeching cracking disaster. Lol Eventually, I re-learned to push my larynx down until it healed some more. Now I hold my larynx and hyoid together to achieve a voice that I can comfortably hold, and that I like. :)

Quote from: runaway on October 06, 2015, 01:40:31 PM
Hey Jollyjoy,

I did actually, but it's subsided a lot since then! There're three possible reasons I can think of:

1) It was caused by the swelling, which has gone done since

2) I had to use my vocal muscles differently, and I've now gotten used to my new voice.

3) Pre-op I could only reach much of my present range by going into falsetto. Due to bone conduction of my voice, my brain thinks it's falsetto because of the pitch, even though it might not be.

I've asked a number of friends if my voice goes into a falsetto, and they've assured me that it doesn't, and that it actually sounds good, hoarseness and breathiness aside.

As for my recovery, I've always had a high metabolism with no health problems, so I generally heal a little faster than average. I don't smoke either, and I only drink on occasion in social settings, which probably doesn't hurt. :)

I've used the recovery period as an excuse to have more meat in my diet, and I've also been sleeping as much as possible. :D

Thanks for the detailed explanation! :) Glad to know it'll go away with time!!

Quote from: Cadence Jean on October 06, 2015, 01:46:47 PM
For what it's worth, I also noticed my muscle contracting into a falsetto type voice when attempting to speak about a week and a half after surgery. I wouldn't call it falsetto so much as a screeching cracking disaster. Lol Eventually, I re-learned to push my larynx down until it healed some more. Now I hold my larynx and hyoid together to achieve a voice that I can comfortably hold, and that I like. :)

Glad to hear this is normal during recovery, and your voice sounds very nice! :)

Sounding great, runaway! Thanks for the update.

Thanks for the compliments, kwala, Jollyjoy and Cadence. :)

I'm not sure if this is a one-time fluke, but I just measured my range, and it's now 160hz to 450hz (previously 180hz to 345hz), though it is very breathy and unsustainable at the high end. More of a whisper almost, but still!  8) My voice is also becoming less breathy at the lower ranges (180hz to 250hz), and I can sustain it longer every day.

FWIW two cis friends I asked, could go lower than me, but of course they sound like girls putting on a low voice. As do I!  :D

Oh my god you sound SO GREAT!!!!!

You sound pretty good!

Thanks Roni, & iKate! So far the outcome has exceeded my expectations by far. All I wanted was a passable voice, even if it was androgynous and my range was limited.

So far my non-falsetto range has almost doubled, and when my nose isn't blocked and I'm not unconsciously lowering my pitch, I've been told that my voice sounds good, and very feminine. :)

About the mental block, that's proving to be the most difficult and irritating aspect of training my new voice. My voice has healed up to the point that using a lower pitch is actually very tiring, but I keep doing it if I'm not constantly reminding myself not to.

A few days ago, I phoned a friend and she said I sounded 100% natural and feminine, but as soon as I went up to her place and started talking to people in person, my pitch went back down. Dealing with the mental block will take time after putting on a dude voice for so long, but I'll just keep chipping away at it.

Next Wednesday will mark the 1-month mark, and I'll be posting another recording and also pre and post-op photos of my vocal folds and incision scar.

A small note about Dr. Haben: I think the warnings about the need for vocal training, the not-so-impressive recordings posted on his website, and the extensive description of the VFS procedure(s), are just him managing his patients' expectations. Setting them too high only leads to disappointment, and could be devastating for transgender patients who already have to deal with a lot.

Omg, I'm so happy for you! Congrats runaway, you sound great (:

This definitely means the CTA is worth it. You should do a recording again soon, can't wait to hear more progress!

Roni, you're going in this month right from SD?

Thanks Audreelyn! I'm quite busy this week, but I'll definitely post something by the end of this week.

I hope you don't mind that I snooped on you a little, and your introduction really resonated with me. The military service, motorcycles, the impenetrable macho cover persona, and unfortunately the deep voice. :D You look very pretty in your avatar photo, so passing shouldn't be a problem at all for you once you take care of the voice.

I can say for sure, that the CTA hasn't reduced my range from my pre-op non-falsetto range. Perhaps it's not as wide as it might have been, but if it means cutting out the lower frequencies, then it's definitely worth it. My adam's apple was very small, but I was happy to have that taken care of all at once.

Quote from: runaway on October 14, 2015, 03:43:07 AM
Thanks Audreelyn! I'm quite busy this week, but I'll definitely post something by the end of this week.

I hope you don't mind that I snooped on you a little, and your introduction really resonated with me. The military service, motorcycles, the impenetrable macho cover persona, and unfortunately the deep voice. :D You look very pretty in your avatar photo, so passing shouldn't be a problem at all for you once you take care of the voice.

:) !
Well thank you!
I also don't mind about you looking at my story, in fact, I'm glad you did. I put it out there for everyone to read. Really, it makes me happy that it resonated with you. I think that we all have stories that resound with each other and we need all the help and support we can get.

I think I will definitely go full-time once I get the surgery done--so your words mean a lot to me. Granted, I did take this avatar with Selfie/Angles to get the best shot... and it definitely wasn't the first take either...haha!!

So what's next on your timeline after you heal up???

Quote from: audreelyn on October 15, 2015, 12:00:19 AM
:) !
Well thank you!
I also don't mind about you looking at my story, in fact, I'm glad you did. I put it out there for everyone to read. Really, it makes me happy that it resonated with you. I think that we all have stories that resound with each other and we need all the help and support we can get.

I think I will definitely go full-time once I get the surgery done--so your words mean a lot to me. Granted, I did take this avatar with Selfie/Angles to get the best shot... and it definitely wasn't the first take either...haha!!

So what's next on your timeline after you heal up???

Just SRS with Dr. Brassard, for which I'll be going for my consult/approval session this weekend! :)

I transitioned very gradually over the course of about two years, and in my experience voice is the most important gender marker by far. As long as you have your facial hair taken care of, HRT will only help by making a whole bunch of subtle changes to your skin, muscle and fat distribution that add up, eventually resulting in male fail.

I think you've been on HRT for a few months at most? If so, the next year or so should be very exciting for you, since you've already made up your mind to go full-time after VFS. I kinda bumbled along being insecure due to internalized anxieties about passing, but the 6-9 month mark was when I was being consistently read as female, as long as I kept my mouth shut, which led to my decision to undergo VFS.

What did you ride, if you don't mind me asking? Do you still ride? I hope the arm has healed up well at this point. :)

Quote from: runaway on October 15, 2015, 06:36:09 AM
Just SRS with Dr. Brassard, for which I'll be going for my consult/approval session this weekend! :)

I transitioned very gradually over the course of about two years, and in my experience voice is the most important gender marker by far. As long as you have your facial hair taken care of, HRT will only help by making a whole bunch of subtle changes to your skin, muscle and fat distribution that add up, eventually resulting in male fail.

I think you've been on HRT for a few months at most? If so, the next year or so should be very exciting for you, since you've already made up your mind to go full-time after VFS. I kinda bumbled along being insecure due to internalized anxieties about passing, but the 6-9 month mark was when I was being consistently read as female, as long as I kept my mouth shut, which led to my decision to undergo VFS.

What did you ride, if you don't mind me asking? Do you still ride? I hope the arm has healed up well at this point. :)

OMG! SRS!! That's going to be it then :)

Yes, I'm having my fourth installment of laser so that'll be exciting. My facial hair nearly gone anyhow. Ultimately, I really hate not being able to talk, since I'm so talkative. I don't mind going to LGBT events and talking my head off, since people there are usually very cool. But in public... it's not the easiest to pull off. But hey! Sounds like you're doing pretty well!

Are you full time at work?

I rode a Harley Sportster 2011. My arm is pretty much at 80 percent. Just missing some grip strength and flexibility, but that'll come with time. Already dismissed from my occupational therapist, so yeah, thank you for the well wishes! Sounds like you are a rider yourself?

Hey everyone, sorry for the hiatus; I've been crazy busy, and my voice became hoarse and weak again because I overused it last week.

IMPORTANT WARNING
Another transgirl I met at Dr. Haben's clinic, has had her sutures break at about the 4-week mark while she was talking on the phone, so her old voice is back. She said she was talking normally, and then she felt pain, then her old voice came back.

DON'T OVERUSE YOUR VOICE UNTIL IT'S FULLY HEALED!!!

I'm now extremely paranoid, and I'll be giving myself another week of self-imposed voice rest before I post more recordings, since I've been overusing my voice too.

Quote from: audreelyn on October 16, 2015, 02:33:56 AM
OMG! SRS!! That's going to be it then :)

Yes, I'm having my fourth installment of laser so that'll be exciting. My facial hair nearly gone anyhow. Ultimately, I really hate not being able to talk, since I'm so talkative. I don't mind going to LGBT events and talking my head off, since people there are usually very cool. But in public... it's not the easiest to pull off. But hey! Sounds like you're doing pretty well!

Are you full time at work?

I rode a Harley Sportster 2011. My arm is pretty much at 80 percent. Just missing some grip strength and flexibility, but that'll come with time. Already dismissed from my occupational therapist, so yeah, thank you for the well wishes! Sounds like you are a rider yourself?

I just had my second (and last) SRS consult, so now I just have to wait for my surgery date with Dr. Brassard!

I'm still in school, and I went full time right after returning from VFS, so thankfully I didn't have to deal with the additional drama that I imagine coming out at work would involve. Has it gone well for you?

Anyway it sounds like your arm is healing up fine! I started out on a 200cc Yamaha, and I now ride a Yamaha XV750, which is sort of similar to the Sportster. Do you intend to start riding again once you've healed up? I've crashed several times, but I haven't broken anything yet ***knockonwood***.

Regarding my voice, the comfortable pitch hasn't changed much (215-225hz), but I don't have to push it as low as I did before, to avoid agitating it. Stamina has improved, and breathiness has gone done, but it's definitely not 100% yet.

Gonna take it easy for the next week or four, but I'll post a recording again once I recover from last week's voice abuse.

Quote from: runaway on October 19, 2015, 07:10:22 PM
Hey everyone, sorry for the hiatus; I've been crazy busy, and my voice became hoarse and weak again because I overused it last week.

IMPORTANT WARNING
Another transgirl I met at Dr. Haben's clinic, has had her sutures break at about the 4-week mark while she was talking on the phone, so her old voice is back. She said she was talking normally, and then she felt pain, then her old voice came back.

DON'T OVERUSE YOUR VOICE UNTIL IT'S FULLY HEALED!!!

I'm now extremely paranoid, and I'll be giving myself another week of self-imposed voice rest before I post more recordings, since I've been overusing my voice too.

Jeez, WHILE she was talking normally? And now my anxiety/paranoia regarding my sutures have returned.. all while I am still suffering from a semi-congested chest and coughing at least 10 times a day. And I'm only 5 days into recovery. First Elaine S had bits of her suture come out and now another similar incident. Both girls have gone to Dr. Haben. I've already had two bad dreams in a row where my sutures have ripped.

I was planning on doing at least two weeks of strict voice rest. Do you girls reckon I should increase my period of rest? Two weeks was about the most I was willing to go, with halloween parties lined up and me looking to get back to work where I talk non-stop for 6+ hours. But now I can't help but be concerned about over-using my voice.

How the heck do her sutures come apart during normal conversation? :( Do you know anything about her recovery period and if she followed post-op care instructions to the T? I'm thinking her sutures disintegrated over time with misuse rather than from the actual phone conversation itself?

Dr Haben has had a pretty good record with the sutures staying in place but the real trick is for your body to heal with the two cords together. For some reason it appears that people are having the cords not bind as one. The sutures seem to dissolved about week 5 which is plenty of time for healing if the cords bound together but I ask Dr Haben when coughing and sneezing would be OK. He said your voice would get very bad and then become very good and at that point the voice would be healed. I suspect that point is sometime after the 6 week mark. Also avoid any loud usage of the voice. You will have problems talking at normal levels and that means the voice isn't healed. Don't force it. Full healing can take between 3 and 6 months and I think I am going to be closer to 6 months. Luck for me I can function with a limited voice while that happens.

I actually had my surgery on the same day as her. I just saw her email. I hope everything will turn out fine for her at the end.

I'm very grateful that she has shared this with us. Right now, I'm at almost 4 weeks, I think I will try to have 2 more weeks of complete vocal rest to ensure the voice heals properly.

Quote from: Roni on October 20, 2015, 07:05:17 AM
Jeez, WHILE she was talking normally? And now my anxiety/paranoia regarding my sutures have returned.. all while I am still suffering from a semi-congested chest and coughing at least 10 times a day. And I'm only 5 days into recovery. First Elaine S had bits of her suture come out and now another similar incident. Both girls have gone to Dr. Haben. I've already had two bad dreams in a row where my sutures have ripped.

I was planning on doing at least two weeks of strict voice rest. Do you girls reckon I should increase my period of rest? Two weeks was about the most I was willing to go, with halloween parties lined up and me looking to get back to work where I talk non-stop for 6+ hours. But now I can't help but be concerned about over-using my voice.

How the heck do her sutures come apart during normal conversation? :( Do you know anything about her recovery period and if she followed post-op care instructions to the T? I'm thinking her sutures disintegrated over time with misuse rather than from the actual phone conversation itself?

I did a whole month and Dr Kim recommends a full month minimum. Not sure why Dr Haben is different. Either he is not conservative enough or Dr Kim is too conservative.

Quote from: iKate on October 20, 2015, 02:00:36 PM
I did a whole month and Dr Kim recommends a full month minimum. Not sure why Dr Haben is different. Either he is not conservative enough or Dr Kim is too conservative.

Yeah, it seems it is mainly Haben girls who are having trouble with their sutures, probably because Dr. Haben is not conservative enough with the voice rest requirements. I'll probably do a month of rest like those who have gone to Yeson.

Yes, I think a full month of voice rest would be a good idea. I think Dr. Haben may be not conservative enough to account for patients who heal slower, or overuse their voices too soon. My voice-use was definitely more than "moderate" the last week.

Both me and the girl I mentioned, were intending to do that but got tired of being mute after one week. I had my post-op check up a full week after my operation, and the web between my vocal folds had already formed, so I should be fine, I hope...

Nevertheless, I will give it another 1-2 weeks. No change in pitch, but there's been an increase in phlegm again, so I think that's a sign I really agitated my folds last week, though the discomfort I felt due to the overuse has gone away mostly.

To those who've just had the operation, I found that pushing my voice as low as possible and speaking softly really helped avoid agitating my folds.

Low pitch + low volume = folds vibrate slower and softer.
High pitch + high volume = folds vibrate faster and harder.

Something people are overlooking is Dr Haben's instruction say first week no sound. Next week and a half light usage. Do not return to normal usage for 2 1/2 weeks. Just because you sound good after the first week isn't an indication your voice is ready. My voice is well over the initial healing period at 3 months but it still sounds bad so how the voice sounds isn't an indication that the voice is ready in the early stages.

I think I might make an appointment with an ENT to have my chords checked and make sure I have healed properly before resuming speaking. Does anybody know if I am able to go to just any ENT? Do I just go into my appointment asking to have pictures of my vocal folds taken?

Hi

I'm the very unlucky girl here. In case there is any doubt about my identity, Jollyjoy and Runaway, you may remember I was using a blue notepad while you were using your phones. I had a purple dress with black boots.

I don't really hang around on Susan, I post on ->-bleeped-<- where it's all very relaxed and cordial. I do not want to talk about my VFS here, as I feel extremely unhappy and do not want to break any forum rules.

Google my name and you will find me and what I have to say. Be extremely cautious with your voice.

Welcome to Susan's Place isleeplikecat. Feel free to post as much or as little as you want. There are several people who have had issues with voice surgery and have started threads or made post on existing threads. My voice is extremely slow to heal and at 3 months, it isn't ready yet. As long as you tell your story, your post will survive as not all surgeries turn out as expected. If there is anything I can help you with, let me know.

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isleeplikecat, I'm very sorry to hear that your stitches have come out. I wholeheartedly empathize with what you must be feeling right now, especially having met you in person and had the surgery on the same day. I hope everything will work out for you at the end. Thank you so much for giving me the warning on being careful with using the voice during recovery, I definitely plan on using the voice as minimally as possible in the coming weeks.

There have been issues with Korea as well so neither doctor has a spotless record. As for my case, in my pre surgical appointment I knew for me the healing rates Dr Haben was giving might not apply to me because both my SRS and nose job took a very long time for the swelling to go down. In one way that was a good thing because the voice was pretty well useless for the first 2 weeks enforcing the silence period for two weeks. After that it was so weak I spent several more weeks using it as little as possible. If i could have made my voice work without surgery, I would have never considered it but I walked around for 35 years as a female with a very low voice. I suspect I never passed once I opened my mouth. I encourage speech therapy when ever possible because surgery isn't without risk and speech therapy will make you better informed about the surgery when decision time comes.

I do belive in people being informed when they make a surgical decision and on this site some FFS surgeons are known to have limitations in their procedures. Susan's is a medical information site and only operates on the very small amount of money donated by the users of the site. Run the numbers and the site operates on less than $40,000 a year. I am unsure how many people use us as a resource when selecting a doctor because for every user of the site, there are about 6 guest on at the same time. users we have some idea about from their post but guest are totally unknown as to their wants and needs.

Our desire is to provide the best possible medical care for those who view the site. Some doctors are better at one type of surgery and others may do another surgery better. We provide information that will allow the site user to select the care that best meets their needs.

Hi Roni, I went to my GP and got a referral to a local ENT, so it's probably the same process where you are.

I'll be 5 weeks post-op by tomorrow, but due to me overusing my voice last week, I'm gonna give myself an additional week to recover.

I think as long as you listen to your body, you'll be ok. If you feel pain, definitely stop, or speak softer/lower. Don't put yourself in any situation where you have to speak loudly, like a crowded bar. That's exactly what I did, that I shouldn't have done!

Isleeplikecat, I'm so sorry this has happened to you, and I hope you manage to work something out, whether with Dr. Haben or someone else. If the sutures breaking were not due to something you did, I don't see why you should be expected to absorb so much of the cost.

FWIW when I mentioned Yeson to my gender therapist, she said some of her clients had gone to South Korea with unsatisfactory results, so neither option has a 100% success rate.

Nevertheless, I wish you all the best with SRS! That's something to look forward to for sure. :)

Isleeplikecat, we are all very, very grateful that you have posted here. I am now increasing my period of vocal rest, especially since I have also been coughing repeatedly since the surgery.

Like others have said, there are Yeson girls who have had unsatisfactory results and have had problems with their stitches. I think the seemingly more unsatisfactory results surrounding Haben's VFS is due to the fact that he is not very known yet, so girls who have had surgery with him recently have been more inclined to post about him. Any good or bad result from Haben has been magnified as a result. For instance, have you noticed the lack of Yeson posts on this forum?

I can't believe we are still expected to eat 80% of the surgery cost should healing not go as planned. I absolutely cannot afford to eat even half the cost.. more of a reason to increase my period of vocal rest.

Stay strong, girly, and I hope everything pans out well for you in the end. <3 Good luck with SRS!

Isleeplikecat, I know you have decided not to go into specifics about what happened, but may I just ask how long the pain in your throat lasted after your stitches broke? And is it a significantly painful feeling? I've been worried that maybe I've already broken my stitches or something but didn't feel it at all.. and maybe swallowed all the blood so didn't see any physical signs. Worst case scenario for me is not talking for a month only to find out my stitches have already broken anyway.

Quote from: runaway on October 19, 2015, 07:42:01 PM
I just had my second (and last) SRS consult, so now I just have to wait for my surgery date with Dr. Brassard!

I'm still in school, and I went full time right after returning from VFS, so thankfully I didn't have to deal with the additional drama that I imagine coming out at work would involve. Has it gone well for you?

Anyway it sounds like your arm is healing up fine! I started out on a 200cc Yamaha, and I now ride a Yamaha XV750, which is sort of similar to the Sportster. Do you intend to start riding again once you've healed up? I've crashed several times, but I haven't broken anything yet ***knockonwood***.

Regarding my voice, the comfortable pitch hasn't changed much (215-225hz), but I don't have to push it as low as I did before, to avoid agitating it. Stamina has improved, and breathiness has gone done, but it's definitely not 100% yet.

Gonna take it easy for the next week or four, but I'll post a recording again once I recover from last week's voice abuse.

Congratulations :) I am so excited for you!! How are you feeling?

Ohh school, gosh, I imagine it went real smooth! I actually haven't come out at work. Work and my parents--so I'm basically just part time. Though before VFS, I will definitely be making sure my office and parents know what I'm doing. As for the riding--no I'm pretty much done. I have no intention on getting back on the bike. I live in California and have to deal with massive traffic, so morning commutes are an exercise in Darwinism... unfortunately. I just don't think it's worth the risk anymore. But please, continue to ride safe!

A month of healing and not speaking sounds just about right to me. I wouldn't want to chance it, at all! Always better to err on the side of caution.

And Isleeplikecat, I am sorry to hear about your voice :(
My heart goes out to you, your experiences will definitely help others here. Best wishes, girl!

Audree

I spoke with Isleeplikecat privately. According to her she faced absolutely no problems with coughing, and had accidentally spoken only one word during recovery. The second week of recovery she still limited much of her speech. She took all her medications religiously and didn't exercise/strain herself, etc for weeks. It is interesting how her stitches still managed to rip despite all this, during a normal phone conversation no less.

I think some of it might go back to what you can't control. Talking in your sleep, snoring, spasms in the vocal cords and possibly healing differences where the cords don't fuse for some reason. There is also a possible of a flaw in the suture material that wasn't detected in manufacturing. There is a reason why they coined the term surgical risk and everybody faces it when they go under the knife. I am interested in learning more about these risk because sometimes things don't work out as expected.

Anyone knows around what time the vocal fold shortening becomes permanent? So that even if the stitches come out, it would not matter? I originally thought after the first week of recovery, there's no way you can 'undo' the surgery unless you abuse the voice by screaming, shouting or something.

The rule is 2 1/2 week for normal activity but the surgery is still healing at that point. I tried to get an answer our of Dr Haben on exactly that point and he said your voice will get very bad and then vey good. I wouldn't want to try something like that before the 3 month mark and maybe as long as 6 months. As for me, I am still using my trained voice and yelling won't work in it. I haven't yelled in many years and I don't see a need to.

Yes I am interested in knowing when the folds are conjoined permanently. Dena, are you suggesting that the problem with Isleeplikecat's VFS is that her folds might not have healed together properly? If I give myself a month's vocal rest, and then check up with an ENT to make certain my folds have "fused" together, are stitches coming off something I should not have to worry about at that point? I never asked Dr. Haben this.

Edit: You stated that the sutures become permanent around the 2.5 week mark but the surgical site is still healing at that point. What does that mean? That the conjoined folds could still come undone? I thought dissolved stitches = permanently joined folds?

You can return to "normal" usage at 2 1/2 weeks. Yelling, coughing and sneezing aren't normal. The voice is still healing at that point so "normal" use may slow the healing process according to Dr Haben. You receive Prilosec for 4 weeks and if you have acid reflux you would receive it for even longer to protected the sutures and prevent the acid from harming the surgical site. I think my sutures came out between week 5 and 6 which was the point were my body rejected the sutures taking my voice away again.

As for why the surgery fails, I don't have a clue at this point and would like to know more. Possible thoughts are the cords continued to move against each other preventing fusing. Something quirky in the body prevented them from fusing. Or the bigger one is the web didn't form correctly leaving a weak point that allowed the joined cords to separate. I would really like to understand these failures better so we could warn others about what to watch out for in recovery. You may not feel pain from the surgery (I still feel a little) but healing may take 3 months so be careful with your voice even if it sounds great and you feel no pain.

Bodies heal at different rates so Dr Haben was very reluctant to give me a hard number as to when the voice is fully recovered. As such at 3 months I now allow coughs (no coughing fits)  but yelling is still off the table. I am an engineer and as such I error on the conservative side whenever possible. While I enjoyed Dr Haben, I don't want to return for a repair job.


Isleeplikecat: As a moderator we live by the TOS and Susan gives us little direction beyond that. The opinions  posted are the views of the poster and while we do remove or edit post, we need to justify our actions with the TOS. I am interested in reading more of your posts to understand exactly what caused the failure because so little is known about the failures. Also your story will help balance out the good outcomes. Far to many people are ready for surgery before giving voice therapy a chance and your story might help them develop a more balanced view of the surgery.

As for your name, we should be able to fix that as long as the name isn't already used. When we do it, you will need to reverify your account. I will do it latter this afternoon when my instructor is back so I don't make a mistake.

Username change all completed be. Please be aware a password reset email will be sent in the near future. Hugs
Mariah

Quote from: isleeplikeacat on October 21, 2015, 01:22:15 PM
Oh and I was so tired yesterday I made small mistakes. First, I mistyped my username, it should be isleeplikeAcat. Dena, you're a mod, can it be fixed?

Hi, Cat. I'm so sorry that your surgery was not successful. :( I would be devastated too.  At this point, I hope that your folds heal up nicely and your voice returns to at least a good approximation of what it was before. Then you'll have a good starting point if you wish to try vfs again. I guess it goes to show that not any surgeon has a spotless track record. I'm disappointed that Dr. Haben won't cover more of his cost in your case. Though, I can understand the surgical center not discounting at all as I have not heard of any surgeon who offers free revisions without the cost of the OR and anesthesiologist coming out of pocket. I wonder what Yeson's policy is on revisions. If I recall, they own the center where the surgery itself takes place? Maybe I'm wrong on that?

isleeplikeacat, I'm sorry to hear you've been very depressed. :( I hope you can feel better soon. I feel very terrible that this happened to you. I've been thinking about your situation non-stop ever since you shared the news. I remember running into you three times at Rochester, twice at the office and once in the hospital. You were super friendly when I saw you, so I felt very connected to you. I was so excited to have met both you and Runaway, especially because I thought I wouldn't meet any transgirls there. I was shocked to hear your stitches came out. I really hope you can end up with the voice you had hoped for. You have my email, so you can always email me if you need anything.

Quote from: isleeplikeacat on October 20, 2015, 07:41:56 PM
And for whoever plans to go to Haben, think twice: make sure you have twice as much (-20% lol) in case the procedure goes wrong. I'm sure he's good, but that's taking a much larger financial risk than going to Korea, where the results are consistent.

While only one person has reported busting the suture with Dr Kim, I would hardly say the results are 100% consistent. I know and hear a number of women who were dissatisfied with their surgeries and a few who sounded androgynous rather than feminine. I had my VFS from Dr Kim but I think I got lucky in that I got a passable voice after 1 month. Some people don't after 4 months. Look at anjaq, she is struggling with all sorts of issues now... her voice passes but she has issues with it.

Again, I'll say - VFS is not magic. Anjaq or someone correctly called it voice supporting surgery. And unfortunately sometimes things go wrong, as with any surgery. Sometimes there is pre-existing "stuff" that can interfere. Plus our bodies are all different.

That said, I really hope you can recover and get another shot.

Quote from: Roni on October 20, 2015, 04:56:09 PM
I think I might make an appointment with an ENT to have my chords checked and make sure I have healed properly before resuming speaking. Does anybody know if I am able to go to just any ENT? Do I just go into my appointment asking to have pictures of my vocal folds taken?

Yes, pretty much. Dana (Dana88) did that. I have an appointment soon to do that as well as Dr Kim recommended a follow up. Just pics of the surgical site would suffice. I got a referral from my primary doc.

Quote from: Cadence Jean on October 22, 2015, 02:36:52 AMI wonder what Yeson's policy is on revisions. If I recall, they own the center where the surgery itself takes place? Maybe I'm wrong on that?

I think they guarantee you for a year. Don't quote me on that though.

12 month of warranty? Even 1 would have been nice.

Before I dare speak again, I will try to go see a local ENT in 3 weeks. I promise I will post an update.

In the meantime, I will be out of the forum.

I told you all everything I could. Just be extremely cautious.

By the way, I have just found something I wish I had been told: the suggested 1 week rest is "empiric", as in "we don't know but it seems to work ok". Yeson recommends 1 month, and Remacle insists on at least 15 days, reminding that it is empiric on http://facialfeminization.eu/body-voice-procedures/wendler-glottoplasty-for-voice-feminization/

Isleeplikeacat, I'm really sorry and upset about what happened to you, and I hope your situation can be resolved as soon as your voice has healed up. Sending good thoughts and well wishes your way! *hugs*

I've more or less recovered from overusing my voice last week, and so far my voice has been good, though I've made it a point to use it as minimally as possible. I blew out some green mucus today, so perhaps it might have been a minor cold too. Who knows!

As promised, here's my 5-week post-op recording:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0JQMXDvzvwC

Pitch
For those who can't listen to it at the moment, my comfortable pitch has steadily increased from an initial 190-200hz, to 215-225hz, and now it's a pretty consistent 230-235hz.

I'm still constantly irritated by clear phlegm, so I had to record that during one of the brief moments when I successfully clear my throat, but before the phlegm accumulates again. (You can hear my voice becoming raspy towards the end of the recording as the phlegm comes back.)

Photos of my incision:

Front:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2FRecovery%2FDSC_3857_zpsgrzzy5dq.jpg&hash=9811a747e80002b1d90df40b6c1e4ca63e6e3c42)

Side:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2FRecovery%2FDSC_3858_zpstcwisf2p.jpg&hash=5a1b5031b8b155e6b449a4d689bc3fb9d27d5e78)

Swelling
The swelling on my thyroid cartilage has visibly subsided a lot, so I'm happy about that, and it's likely related to the pitch increase noted above, and in my voice recording. The first week post-op was the worst, and I was quite worried it would remain that way. There's still some visible swelling started from the incision up to the next fold where the shave was done, but I expect it to keep going down as the weeks go by.

Incision adhesion
The incision scar is still stuck to thyroid cartilage, but enough of it has broken up that my range of motion is no longer restricted or uncomfortable. One side seems to be unsticking itself faster than the other, so I'll just keep up with the neck rolls and massages and see how that goes.

Ask me anything!

Sounds very good Runaway! Your healing is so fast compared to mine. I still sound quite hoarse after 4 weeks. Hopefully that will go away with time since Dr. Haben said it would take up to 12 weeks to hear the final results.

For 5 weeks the voice sounds good. The pitch combined with the accent sounds feminine and interesting. I know the voice is still a bit rough but that will get better as time goes on. Be careful not to over use it again until you have had a bit more healing.

Quote from: runaway on October 24, 2015, 06:22:59 PM
Isleeplikeacat, I'm really sorry and upset about what happened to you, and I hope your situation can be resolved as soon as your voice has healed up. Sending good thoughts and well wishes your way! *hugs*

I've more or less recovered from overusing my voice last week, and so far my voice has been good, though I've made it a point to use it as minimally as possible. I blew out some green mucus today, so perhaps it might have been a minor cold too. Who knows!

As promised, here's my 5-week post-op recording:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0JQMXDvzvwC

Pitch
For those who can't listen to it at the moment, my comfortable pitch has steadily increased from an initial 190-200hz, to 215-225hz, and now it's a pretty consistent 230-235hz.

I'm still constantly irritated by clear phlegm, so I had to record that during one of the brief moments when I successfully clear my throat, but before the phlegm accumulates again. (You can hear my voice becoming raspy towards the end of the recording as the phlegm comes back.)

Photos of my incision:

Front:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2FRecovery%2FDSC_3857_zpsgrzzy5dq.jpg&hash=9811a747e80002b1d90df40b6c1e4ca63e6e3c42)

Side:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2FRecovery%2FDSC_3858_zpstcwisf2p.jpg&hash=5a1b5031b8b155e6b449a4d689bc3fb9d27d5e78)

Swelling
The swelling on my thyroid cartilage has visibly subsided a lot, so I'm happy about that, and it's likely related to the pitch increase noted above, and in my voice recording. The first week post-op was the worst, and I was quite worried it would remain that way. There's still some visible swelling started from the incision up to the next fold where the shave was done, but I expect it to keep going down as the weeks go by.

Incision adhesion
The incision scar is still stuck to thyroid cartilage, but enough of it has broken up that my range of motion is no longer restricted or uncomfortable. One side seems to be unsticking itself faster than the other, so I'll just keep up with the neck rolls and massages and see how that goes.

Ask me anything!

Thank you for posting the update. To my ear, your voice sounds excellent. I'd consider it a MAJOR success if I get near your result. Do continue to take it easy. It is really difficult but probably best to be cautious for a while yet. Congratulations also on the CTA scar healing. It looks quite smooth and it will fade to nothingness in short order I bet.

As I am not totally familiar with the CTA "adherence" with the thyroid cartelege issue can you elaborate on any daily or more often massage techniques or movements to help with it. Do you feel it causes any "hitch" in the range of your beautiful new voice? I couldn't detect anything, but just thought I would ask... It's always good and reassuring to have more insight into the process even though you, and others, have posted such concise and comprehensive updates.

I may end up with having this done when I am there in Dec. I am planning on it and have got my mind around the idea already. At this point, I'd say that unless there is CERTAINTY it is in no way needed, I will have the procedure done. Just have to wait and see though...

Please be safe and feel the warm wishes from many and our collective happiness for you. Thank you again for the well written update and the photographs.

Elaine

Quote from: runaway on October 24, 2015, 06:22:59 PM
Isleeplikeacat, I'm really sorry and upset about what happened to you, and I hope your situation can be resolved as soon as your voice has healed up. Sending good thoughts and well wishes your way! *hugs*

I've more or less recovered from overusing my voice last week, and so far my voice has been good, though I've made it a point to use it as minimally as possible. I blew out some green mucus today, so perhaps it might have been a minor cold too. Who knows!

As promised, here's my 5-week post-op recording:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0JQMXDvzvwC

Pitch
For those who can't listen to it at the moment, my comfortable pitch has steadily increased from an initial 190-200hz, to 215-225hz, and now it's a pretty consistent 230-235hz.

I'm still constantly irritated by clear phlegm, so I had to record that during one of the brief moments when I successfully clear my throat, but before the phlegm accumulates again. (You can hear my voice becoming raspy towards the end of the recording as the phlegm comes back.)

Photos of my incision:

Front:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2FRecovery%2FDSC_3857_zpsgrzzy5dq.jpg&hash=9811a747e80002b1d90df40b6c1e4ca63e6e3c42)

Side:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1028.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy349%2Fwjwinona%2FRecovery%2FDSC_3858_zpstcwisf2p.jpg&hash=5a1b5031b8b155e6b449a4d689bc3fb9d27d5e78)

Swelling
The swelling on my thyroid cartilage has visibly subsided a lot, so I'm happy about that, and it's likely related to the pitch increase noted above, and in my voice recording. The first week post-op was the worst, and I was quite worried it would remain that way. There's still some visible swelling started from the incision up to the next fold where the shave was done, but I expect it to keep going down as the weeks go by.

Incision adhesion
The incision scar is still stuck to thyroid cartilage, but enough of it has broken up that my range of motion is no longer restricted or uncomfortable. One side seems to be unsticking itself faster than the other, so I'll just keep up with the neck rolls and massages and see how that goes.

Ask me anything!

Sounding good!  I think with a bit more healing the raspy quality will disappear and you'll be left with nothing but a beautiful, clear, feminine voice.

Thanks for the update! This is making me very excited for my surgery in November. I hope so much that I can be lucky enough to get a similar result to yours. You sound great!


~Evelyn

I would do ANYTHING for your voice results! Congratulations!!

It doesn't seem like I'll be experiencing much of a pitch increase, from the voice samples I have been recording. I know I'm only 10 days post op, but as of right now I am a tad bit disappointed. If anything I probably only went up 10 Hz.

Quote from: jollyjoy on October 24, 2015, 06:50:56 PM
Sounds very good Runaway! Your healing is so fast compared to mine. I still sound quite hoarse after 4 weeks. Hopefully that will go away with time since Dr. Haben said it would take up to 12 weeks to hear the final results.

I sound very hoarse too. In fact, a lot more hoarse than you were in your 1 week post op recording. =\ The fact that you're still hoarse after a month isn't giving me too much hope on recovering as fast as Runaway either.

Quote from: Roni on October 25, 2015, 12:40:47 AM
I would do ANYTHING for your voice results! Congratulations!!

It doesn't seem like I'll be experiencing much of a pitch increase, from the voice samples I have been recording. I know I'm only 10 days post op, but as of right now I am a tad bit disappointed. If anything I probably only went up 10 Hz.

At 10 days it's hard to tell anything. Also bone conduction really messes up your sense of your voice. I never thought my voice was as low as it was but measuring my voice with frequency meters told me another story. My voice was about as low as it could go. If Dr Haben told you how much your tie was, that will give you an idea. Mine was 40% of the longer cord or about 50% of the shorter one and that may have pushed my voice about 80 Hz.

Quote from: Dena on October 25, 2015, 01:05:10 AM
At 10 days it's hard to tell anything. Also bone conduction really messes up your sense of your voice. I never thought my voice was as low as it was but measuring my voice with frequency meters told me another story. My voice was about as low as it could go. If Dr Haben told you how much your tie was, that will give you an idea. Mine was 40% of the longer cord or about 50% of the shorter one and that may have pushed my voice about 80 Hz.

I seem to have lost a "standard" natural speaking voice pre-op. I think I was so used to increasing my pitch all the time, I didn't know what constituted as natural anymore. For all I know my pitch could have increased but because I was able to bring my pitch to the 240 Hz range (according to Dr Haben), any increases in my natural voice just doesn't seem all that noticeable. Oh well. I really hope you are right Dena. I'll see in a couple weeks.

Also I let out a pretty nasty and loud cough earlier (couldn't control it), and ever since then my chords/throat have been throbbing REALLY bad and I'm hoping I didn't damage my stitches. So far the girls who have done damage to their stitches have reported a 2-3 out of 10 on the pain scale when they ripped their chords. Unfortunately that doesn't help me much because I have a high pain tolerance. Right now it just feels like I have the beginning of a sore throat. I will find out at the ENT next week if I have done any damage to my stitches..

Thanks for the compliments, everyone! I really appreciate all the positivity. :) Most of the time, my voice is quite raspy due to the constant accumulation of phlegm, so the recording was actually my third attempt, and it went back to being raspy and gurgly from all the phlegm right after. :D

Elaine: The incision site where my scar is, was stuck to my thyroid cartilage, such that swallowing or raising my pitch would pull up on the skin of my neck. Cadence reported some adhesion in her case, that resolved on its own. Dr. Haben recommended neck rolls and massaging the incision with a hot towel for 20 minutes, three times a day.

I've been doing that as much as possible, and just moving the skin around whenever my hands are free. I'm not sure if that helped, or if it's been unsticking itself on its own as the area heals.

Right now, the adhesion is broken up enough that it doesn't cause any noticeable discomfort, so I'm not too worried. Now that it's healed up better, I've also been more vigorous and forceful with the massaging. :D

Roni: Right after my first week of voice rest was over, my pitch was actually around 160hz which was easily achievable pre-op. This was because I had to push it low to avoid strain and irritation, and also because I hadn't used a trained voice in public, so my brain was still locked onto my old pitch, so this is what you may be observing except your brain is locked onto your trained pitch.

However, remember that it's really not just about the pitch increase. If it was, we would all just speak in a Bee Gees "Staying Alive"-esque falsetto and call it done, no? ;)

The difference you'll probably notice, is that accidental noises such as throat clearing, coughing, sighing, will sound very different. Even at the same pitches achievable pre and post op, the aural qualities of your voice will be different.

This is a matter of physics, not opinion!

Example: On a tuned acoustic/classical guitar, the 10th fret on the low E string will produce the same pitch as the D string, but any experienced guitarist can tell the difference with his/her eyes closed, due to the different aural qualities of an effectively shorter thicker string (10th fret low E), and a longer thinner string (D string).

Unlike your pre-op voice, it should be mostly effortless on your part. I say mostly effortless, because I had to retrain my brain to use my new instrument.

In my case, pushing my pitch down was actually far more strenuous than simply speaking at a comfortable pitch, but that was what my brain wanted to do. In your case, I guess you'll have to untrain and retrain your voice at the same time.

Keeping with the instrument analogy:
Pre-op: I had a cello, you had a viola, and we both wanted to sound like a violin. I was unable to, you were through training.
Post-op: We both have violins. My brain still wanted to sound like a cello, so I have to train it to play a violin now. Your brain was already trained to sound like a violin, and you were able to pre and post op.
The difference is now you'll sound like a violin, without having to finger the strings halfway up the fretboard.

The odd thing is, my new comfortable pitch of 235hz still sounds the same to me as it did when it was about 200hz. What I did was to memorize my throat/thyroid position when using my comfortable pitch. Ideally, from a rested position, your comfortable pitch should entail no movement of your thyroid cartilage whatsoever.

As the surgical laryngitis has gone down, my pitch has gradually gone up without any conscious effort on my part. Kinda like how a string instrument increases its pitch as the ambient temperature goes down, or humidity changes! :)

So as your voice heals and the swelling goes down, your maximum pitch will also increase. I was up to 520hz (barely a whisper) more than a week ago, which went down to 400hz after my voice overuse last week, and this morning it was up to 690hz. Keep in mind though, my voice is unusable at those higher pitches currently, but I expect that to improve as it heals.

Try this:

From a rested thyroid position, put your hand on your throat and feel your thyroid cartilage, then go from your lowest pitch to your highest pitch. At the same position it was when it was rested, is where you want it to be. This is your new comfortable pitch. Pre-op, the same pitch would only have been achievable by moving your thyroid up into your jawbone.

I hope this makes sense, and that you find it helpful. Sorry for the word vomit!

By the way I had more than a few coughing fits in my first week post-op, and I even had small amounts of blood in my phlegm, so your sutures are probably fine. ;D

its been a while since i have been in the voice section. Im so glad so many of you are going to Dr Haben. easiest recovery ever and the results tend to be good. i recently had a cold and still sounded good.

Runaway, that was actually VERY useful for me! Thank you SO much for that! :)

Basically when it comes to finding my comfortable pitch, I should just rest my thyroid cartilage in its natural position, correct? Whereas pre-op I would have had to "raise" my cartilage to increase my pitch in order to attain trained voice. Now that my voice has been tuned to sound like a violin, I no longer have to raise my cartilage? I hope I understood that correctly.

Edit: I have had no form of voice training and actually had no idea how I would attain my trained voice.. I just kinda knew how to do it without regard to the movement of my thyroid cartilage (in fact I had to google where the cartilage was located in my neck lmao). Now I seem to know exactly how to change my pitch in relation to the cartilage.

Oh and thanks for reassuring me about the coughing. If you've ended up with an amazing voice result like that despite all the coughing,'I've just become a little bit more optimistic about my voice.

Yes, the feminine color of the voice is much more than just Fo. Remember your voice isn't producing a pure sine wave. It is producing harmonics and undertones as well. Truth be told I can talk below 200Hz if I wanted to. I have a few times but it has never ever clocked me. In fact being a bit more mature in age I tend to not talk with a high voice.

Quote from: runaway on October 25, 2015, 03:28:07 AM
Thanks for the compliments, everyone! I really appreciate all the positivity. :) Most of the time, my voice is quite raspy due to the constant accumulation of phlegm, so the recording was actually my third attempt, and it went back to being raspy and gurgly from all the phlegm right after. :D

Elaine: The incision site where my scar is, was stuck to my thyroid cartilage, such that swallowing or raising my pitch would pull up on the skin of my neck. Cadence reported some adhesion in her case, that resolved on its own. Dr. Haben recommended neck rolls and massaging the incision with a hot towel for 20 minutes, three times a day.

I've been doing that as much as possible, and just moving the skin around whenever my hands are free. I'm not sure if that helped, or if it's been unsticking itself on its own as the area heals.

Right now, the adhesion is broken up enough that it doesn't cause any noticeable discomfort, so I'm not too worried. Now that it's healed up better, I've also been more vigorous and forceful with the massaging. :D

Roni: Right after my first week of voice rest was over, my pitch was actually around 160hz which was easily achievable pre-op. This was because I had to push it low to avoid strain and irritation, and also because I hadn't used a trained voice in public, so my brain was still locked onto my old pitch, so this is what you may be observing except your brain is locked onto your trained pitch.

However, remember that it's really not just about the pitch increase. If it was, we would all just speak in a Bee Gees "Staying Alive"-esque falsetto and call it done, no? ;)

The difference you'll probably notice, is that accidental noises such as throat clearing, coughing, sighing, will sound very different. Even at the same pitches achievable pre and post op, the aural qualities of your voice will be different.

This is a matter of physics, not opinion!

Example: On a tuned acoustic/classical guitar, the 10th fret on the low E string will produce the same pitch as the D string, but any experienced guitarist can tell the difference with his/her eyes closed, due to the different aural qualities of an effectively shorter thicker string (10th fret low E), and a longer thinner string (D string).

Unlike your pre-op voice, it should be mostly effortless on your part. I say mostly effortless, because I had to retrain my brain to use my new instrument.

In my case, pushing my pitch down was actually far more strenuous than simply speaking at a comfortable pitch, but that was what my brain wanted to do. In your case, I guess you'll have to untrain and retrain your voice at the same time.

Keeping with the instrument analogy:
Pre-op: I had a cello, you had a viola, and we both wanted to sound like a violin. I was unable to, you were through training.
Post-op: We both have violins. My brain still wanted to sound like a cello, so I have to train it to play a violin now. Your brain was already trained to sound like a violin, and you were able to pre and post op.
The difference is now you'll sound like a violin, without having to finger the strings halfway up the fretboard.

The odd thing is, my new comfortable pitch of 235hz still sounds the same to me as it did when it was about 200hz. What I did was to memorize my throat/thyroid position when using my comfortable pitch. Ideally, from a rested position, your comfortable pitch should entail no movement of your thyroid cartilage whatsoever.

As the surgical laryngitis has gone down, my pitch has gradually gone up without any conscious effort on my part. Kinda like how a string instrument increases its pitch as the ambient temperature goes down, or humidity changes! :)

So as your voice heals and the swelling goes down, your maximum pitch will also increase. I was up to 520hz (barely a whisper) more than a week ago, which went down to 400hz after my voice overuse last week, and this morning it was up to 690hz. Keep in mind though, my voice is unusable at those higher pitches currently, but I expect that to improve as it heals.

Try this:

From a rested thyroid position, put your hand on your throat and feel your thyroid cartilage, then go from your lowest pitch to your highest pitch. At the same position it was when it was rested, is where you want it to be. This is your new comfortable pitch. Pre-op, the same pitch would only have been achievable by moving your thyroid up into your jawbone.

I hope this makes sense, and that you find it helpful. Sorry for the word vomit!

By the way I had more than a few coughing fits in my first week post-op, and I even had small amounts of blood in my phlegm, so your sutures are probably fine. ;D

Runaway:

Thank you for taking the time to answer in such detail to several questions. Your descriptions make perfect sense to me and the guitar/stringed instrument is a great analogy. Very nice write up.

Be safe and enjoy the day.
Elaine

That recording was 2 weeks though, not 1 week. After 1 week, my voice was VERY hoarse. I got really worried and anxious about the hoarseness 2 days ago, and Dr. Haben told me patience is the key during recovery, both hoarseness and pitch can take upto 3 month to get to the final result. So I'm really hoping the hoarseness with go away with time and I'm learning to have more patience with the recovery, because I discovered that patience is not one of my personality traits lol.

Quote from: Roni on October 25, 2015, 12:43:00 AM
I sound very hoarse too. In fact, a lot more hoarse than you were in your 1 week post op recording. =\ The fact that you're still hoarse after a month isn't giving me too much hope on recovering as fast as Runaway either.

Quote from: iKate on October 25, 2015, 07:37:33 AM
Yes, the feminine color of the voice is much more than just Fo. Remember your voice isn't producing a pure sine wave. It is producing harmonics and undertones as well. Truth be told I can talk below 200Hz if I wanted to. I have a few times but it has never ever clocked me. In fact being a bit more mature in age I tend to not talk with a high voice.

I think that is what I am slowly realizing as well. I noticed I'd get more looks/smiles from people when I am talking in the 240-250 Hz range, probably because I've just been clocked? I don't know. Whenever I used to talk in a more relaxed voice during my lazy days, my voice almost never turned heads. I would put a lot of strain on my cartilage and vocal chords to achieve my trained voice and it would almost come out unnatural sounding. I am so glad I will be able to simply relax my chords AND cartilage now, and I will take whatever pitch increase I can get. I will probably be happy with a 40Hz pitch increase at this point.. to lock my natural voice at 200Hz. Of course 75 Hz would still be ideal!

I'm really intrigued about this whole procedure, but worried I would ruin it involuntarily.  I snore.  A LOT.  Considering the fragility of the voice and throat after, would it be safe to assume snoring would be even worse than coughing?

Snoring isn't the best thing in the world for the voice and I do it sometimes. My solution to the problem is to sleep on my side and use the pillow to hold my mouth closed forcing me to breath through my nose. I think snoring originates higher up in the throat with the tongue and it doesn't use the vocal cords so the surgery may be safe from snoring. The other issue would be the dry air on the surgical site might cause more coughing.

Quote from: Brooke33 on October 25, 2015, 07:09:50 PM
I'm really intrigued about this whole procedure, but worried I would ruin it involuntarily.  I snore.  A LOT.  Considering the fragility of the voice and throat after, would it be safe to assume snoring would be even worse than coughing?

I snored a ton after my surgery on the day of. I asked the nurses at Yeson and they said snoring won't affect it since it's primarily your nose not your mouth.

Phew, that's a relief, thanks Kate and Dena :D

I am very sorry to hear that someone lost the suture at such a late time and I hope it can be fixed. Its the first time I heard of such a thing that long after VFS. The others who have ripped the suture were all just 1-2 weeks post OP and something happened to them that made them shout, so it was sort of a misuse - even if it was unintentional.

Maybe someone follows her progress and possibly what Dr Haben says about this issue wherever she is active in posting her progress?

It would also be interesting if Elaines report about that one stitch continues. Did the suture also change or was it just the thread coming out? The threads always have to come out in those sutures with most surgeons. The key then is, that the tissue should at that point hold by itself.

Regarding this, I still think that Dr Kims approach makes a lot of sense. He uses permanent threads, that will stay in place forever. This may sound odd, but the CTA methods always use permanent hreads that sty in the body as well. The permanent sutures with glottoplasty make sense in my opinion because
* the healing period is up to 8 weeks until the suture is really stable and dissolvable threads can dissolve as early as 3 weeks post op.
* In addition to that, the knots of dissolvable threads can come loose. I had this happen during a GRS revision after only a couple of days!
* Also one has to ensure to not have reflux issues when using dissolvable threads (take lots of medication if needed!) because the acid makes the threads dissolve faster (Prof Remarcle always gives patients anti reflux medication).

In any case, I would pick the most conservative and cautious procedures any doctors with similar surgeries will recommend. Even if Dr Haben or Prof Remarcle allow you to talk after 2 weeks, I would still use the 4 weeks total rest and additional 4 weeks of restricted usage that Dr Kim recommends. If it is at all avoidable, I would do this when it comes to something like having a job that requires a lot of talking and returning to the job after anything less than 6 weeks - maybe 4 weeks.

Quote from: iKate on October 22, 2015, 08:42:38 PM
While only one person has reported busting the suture with Dr Kim, I would hardly say the results are 100% consistent. I know and hear a number of women who were dissatisfied with their surgeries and a few who sounded androgynous rather than feminine. I had my VFS from Dr Kim but I think I got lucky in that I got a passable voice after 1 month. Some people don't after 4 months. Look at anjaq, she is struggling with all sorts of issues now... her voice passes but she has issues with it.

Yes -I am ok with how it turned out, as it is basically what I expected originally, before I kind of increased my expectations after the pre OP consultation and after hearing some exceptional results. But my own estimate was that I started out at 110-120 Hz and now am at 170-180, sometimes 190 - so that is about the 70 Hz increase to be expected.

I am still very happy about it - I don't worry about talking anymore at all - no worries about being misgendered or thought of as trans and it feels much more like "my voice" now - even if I wake up and don't control my voice at all, it is sounding right, it also sounds right "in my own head" which is such a big relief. So while I do have some struggles - overall it is still a big success - the issues I have are in many ways "first world problems" that people getting voice surgery 10 years ago would not even have dared to mention ;)

Anyways - this surgery is not perfectly predictable - there is a variation in the pitch increase happening. In addition to that, other voice parameters always will still play a role, which is why I called it a "voice supporting surgery". It makes it easier to use a higher pitch but to really make good use of that and to make the higher pitched voice sound feminine is up to others, not the surgeon.

That said, I have not yet heard of a really bad voice from Dr Kim - the ones I heard all are good or have the potential to be good with some training. Also I heard of only one case of physiological isses with the surgery - one time a suture ruptured but that was because for reasons beyond that persons control she was driven to disregard the restrictions very early in the healing period. So, I still think the chances for a good or acceptable results are very high with Dr Kim and I still am glad I went to him and not to some surgeon in Germany - I cannot say anything about Dr Haben, but he seems to have more patients that post here nowadays than Dr Kim, so I think we possibly may soon get a much better picture about his surgical results soon.

Quote from: anjaq on October 26, 2015, 07:09:25 AM
I am very sorry to hear that someone lost the suture at such a late time and I hope it can be fixed. Its the first time I heard of such a thing that long after VFS. The others who have ripped the suture were all just 1-2 weeks post OP and something happened to them that made them shout, so it was sort of a misuse - even if it was unintentional.

Maybe someone follows her progress and possibly what Dr Haben says about this issue wherever she is active in posting her progress?

It would also be interesting if Elaines report about that one stitch continues. Did the suture also change or was it just the thread coming out? The threads always have to come out in those sutures with most surgeons. The key then is, that the tissue should at that point hold by itself.

Regarding this, I still think that Dr Kims approach makes a lot of sense. He uses permanent threads, that will stay in place forever. This may sound odd, but the CTA methods always use permanent hreads that sty in the body as well. The permanent sutures with glottoplasty make sense in my opinion because
* the healing period is up to 8 weeks until the suture is really stable and dissolvable threads can dissolve as early as 3 weeks post op.
* In addition to that, the knots of dissolvable threads can come loose. I had this happen during a GRS revision after only a couple of days!
* Also one has to ensure to not have reflux issues when using dissolvable threads (take lots of medication if needed!) because the acid makes the threads dissolve faster (Prof Remarcle always gives patients anti reflux medication).

In any case, I would pick the most conservative and cautious procedures any doctors with similar surgeries will recommend. Even if Dr Haben or Prof Remarcle allow you to talk after 2 weeks, I would still use the 4 weeks total rest and additional 4 weeks of restricted usage that Dr Kim recommends. If it is at all avoidable, I would do this when it comes to something like having a job that requires a lot of talking and returning to the job after anything less than 6 weeks - maybe 4 weeks.

I echo pretty much of all of anjaq's thoughtful comments, both in the post quoted and the next one in the thread. A lot of very ideas and information that will only increase the likelihood of ones VFS being successful to the highest degree.

To avoid thread drift here, I will start a new one or revive my original thread on my revision trying to will update more frequently. Also reiterating my "laundry list of recommendations as well as thoughts and ideas others have posted. We have a vested interested interest, those of us interested or planning on VFS, to do our part to try and do everything possible to "assist" our surgeons by taking the best of care with their efforts.

Be safe
Elaine 

Quote from: anjaq on October 26, 2015, 07:42:57 AM
That said, I have not yet heard of a really bad voice from Dr Kim - the ones I heard all are good or have the potential to be good with some training.

I have heard one or two. That said their voice doesn't really sound terrible, it just isn't "instant female" as some others are. But they likely have other issues like resonance going on. There was one here who got a really high pitch but said she sounded male (and reluctantly I agree).

Quote from: anjaq on October 26, 2015, 07:09:25 AM
I am very sorry to hear that someone lost the suture at such a late time and I hope it can be fixed. Its the first time I heard of such a thing that long after VFS. The others who have ripped the suture were all just 1-2 weeks post OP and something happened to them that made them shout, so it was sort of a misuse - even if it was unintentional.

Maybe someone follows her progress and possibly what Dr Haben says about this issue wherever she is active in posting her progress?

It would also be interesting if Elaines report about that one stitch continues. Did the suture also change or was it just the thread coming out? The threads always have to come out in those sutures with most surgeons. The key then is, that the tissue should at that point hold by itself.

Regarding this, I still think that Dr Kims approach makes a lot of sense. He uses permanent threads, that will stay in place forever. This may sound odd, but the CTA methods always use permanent hreads that sty in the body as well. The permanent sutures with glottoplasty make sense in my opinion because
* the healing period is up to 8 weeks until the suture is really stable and dissolvable threads can dissolve as early as 3 weeks post op.
* In addition to that, the knots of dissolvable threads can come loose. I had this happen during a GRS revision after only a couple of days!
* Also one has to ensure to not have reflux issues when using dissolvable threads (take lots of medication if needed!) because the acid makes the threads dissolve faster (Prof Remarcle always gives patients anti reflux medication).

In any case, I would pick the most conservative and cautious procedures any doctors with similar surgeries will recommend. Even if Dr Haben or Prof Remarcle allow you to talk after 2 weeks, I would still use the 4 weeks total rest and additional 4 weeks of restricted usage that Dr Kim recommends. If it is at all avoidable, I would do this when it comes to something like having a job that requires a lot of talking and returning to the job after anything less than 6 weeks - maybe 4 weeks.

There really are a lot of questions regarding this technique.  As Dr. Haben explained to me, in some patients the scar forms quickly and the cords are fused together after only a week or two and in some it takes much more time for the site to become stable.  Age, thickness of cords, etc could all be factors.   One would think that by 4-5 weeks the healing would be complete and the stitches coming out would not be an issue but apparently it was for at least two girls.  Dr. Haben also gives anti-reflux meds to help ensure that stomach acids will not diminish the stitches prematurely.  What's most troubling is that it seems that these girls followed the instructions and still had this happen.  All I can do for myself is keep doing what I'm doing and hope that the stitches hold long enough for the cords to fuse.  So far so good but I'm only 5 days in.  So far no coughing incidents and no accidental speaking.  I have gently cleared phlegm a few times to avoid a cough but that's it.  Fingers crossed!

Quote from: kwala on October 26, 2015, 01:59:50 PM
There really are a lot of questions regarding this technique.  As Dr. Haben explained to me, in some patients the scar forms quickly and the cords are fused together after only a week or two and in some it takes much more time for the site to become stable.  Age, thickness of cords, etc could all be factors.   One would think that by 4-5 weeks the healing would be complete and the stitches coming out would not be an issue but apparently it was for at least two girls.  Dr. Haben also gives anti-reflux meds to help ensure that stomach acids will not diminish the stitches prematurely.  What's most troubling is that it seems that these girls followed the instructions and still had this happen.  All I can do for myself is keep doing what I'm doing and hope that the stitches hold long enough for the cords to fuse.  So far so good but I'm only 5 days in.  So far no coughing incidents and no accidental speaking.  I have gently cleared phlegm a few times to avoid a cough but that's it.  Fingers crossed!

Good on you for not having coughed yet! That seems like such a feat compared to what I went through.  :laugh: My first week of recovery all I did was cough every hour. I'm on my second week now and the coughing is almost gone.

Quote from: Roni on October 26, 2015, 06:18:07 PM
Good on you for not having coughed yet! That seems like such a feat compared to what I went through.  :laugh: My first week of recovery all I did was cough every hour. I'm on my second week now and the coughing is almost gone.

It wasn't easy!  But I've just been taking really slow breaths through my nose and sometimes hold my breath for a bit and let the feeling pass.  Then, when I'm calm and the coughing feeling passes I try to swallow or very gently remove the phlegm.  Sounds gross, but it's been working so far.  I was at the checkout line today and a cashier asked, "Credit or debit?" and I opened my mouth to answer and remembered at the last possible second not to speak.  She gave me a funny look and then I explained on a notepad app on my phone that I'm not supposed to speak and she understood lol.  As difficult as this is, it is in many ways a lesson in communication and another reason to be grateful for our voices no matter how they sound.  Not trying to sound like a Hallmark card, but I guess a little positive thinking can go a long way :)

Quote from: kwala on October 26, 2015, 06:57:57 PM
It wasn't easy!  But I've just been taking really slow breaths through my nose and sometimes hold my breath for a bit and let the feeling pass.  Then, when I'm calm and the coughing feeling passes I try to swallow or very gently remove the phlegm.  Sounds gross, but it's been working so far.  I was at the checkout line today and a cashier asked, "Credit or debit?" and I opened my mouth to answer and remembered at the last possible second not to speak.  She gave me a funny look and then I explained on a notepad app on my phone that I'm not supposed to speak and she understood lol.  As difficult as this is, it is in many ways a lesson in communication and another reason to be grateful for our voices no matter how they sound.  Not trying to sound like a Hallmark card, but I guess a little positive thinking can go a long way :)

kwala:

Your closing thought is really appropriate and not "Hallmarkey" at all.

Well put!

Be safe and warmest wishes
Elaine

Quote from: iKate on October 26, 2015, 08:45:20 AM
I have heard one or two. That said their voice doesn't really sound terrible, it just isn't "instant female" as some others are. But they likely have other issues like resonance going on. There was one here who got a really high pitch but said she sounded male (and reluctantly I agree).

That's true, but in my opinion that is what I would call a voice with increased potential to be good. Pitch changed, timbre probably also changed, but there are other factors paying a big role in the gendering of a voice. That potential needs to be used and no surgeon can really force that. This is why voice surgery will never be a perfect thing

Quote from: kwala on October 26, 2015, 06:57:57 PM
It wasn't easy!  But I've just been taking really slow breaths through my nose and sometimes hold my breath for a bit and let the feeling pass.  Then, when I'm calm and the coughing feeling passes I try to swallow or very gently remove the phlegm.  Sounds gross, but it's been working so far.  I was at the checkout line today and a cashier asked, "Credit or debit?" and I opened my mouth to answer and remembered at the last possible second not to speak.  She gave me a funny look and then I explained on a notepad app on my phone that I'm not supposed to speak and she understood lol.  As difficult as this is, it is in many ways a lesson in communication and another reason to be grateful for our voices no matter how they sound.  Not trying to sound like a Hallmark card, but I guess a little positive thinking can go a long way :)

What was really fun for me was I developed a UTI most likely before I went to visit Dr Haben but it peaked out at the tail end of of my voice rest. I went to the emergency room for treatment. I had to explain to the reception desk, the triage doctor and the doctor treating me what was gong on. Because I am post surgical they also needed to know about my gender status because antibiotics are given for a longer period of time when you still have the male plumbing inside. I had put away everything I would need while in voice rest so I wouldn't have to go out except for that!!! I didn't say a word but I was sure tempted.

After the surgery when I went to his office for my check up before going home he told me that because I was a fireman for many years that i had scaring on my vocal cords and he was not sure how it would work. Well he was right it didn't work and so he had me come back in April of this year and we tried again. this time he took some of the scare tissue out and the results were much better. My voice is a lot better but my range is very limited. I hope by exercising it it will help me out. But i will never have a singing voice. At least that will save everyone ears from the toucher. LOL

I just heard a singing clip from Isleeplikeacat, it sounds amazing and super feminine! She sent me a voice clip too but the link was broken. She told me she passes on the phone 100%, I'm soooo happy for her!! :D Maybe she will post an update here herself. I'm assuming her sutures never broke in the first place and the deeper sounds were all part of the healing process since I also heard deep sounds during my recovery.

Quote from: jollyjoy on November 16, 2015, 11:53:17 AM
I just heard a singing slip from Isleeplikeacat, it sounds amazing and super feminine! She sent me a voice clip too but the link was broken. She told me she passes on the phone 100%, I'm soooo happy for her!! :D Maybe she will post an update here herself. I'm assuming her sutures never broke in the first place and the deeper sounds were all part of the healing process since I also heard deep sounds during my recovery.

That's great news.  So maybe she just overused her voice, felt a little pain and panicked?  I'm glad things are working out for her, thanks for sharing!

ETA: I was able to find her update elsewhere with a Google search and it turned out wonderfully.  Glad everything worked out the way it did!

I would be Interesse to learn more about shouting and yelling after healing is finished. My concern that my voice will stay very thin after surgery. What are your experiences?

Quote from: Lara1969 on November 16, 2015, 01:57:47 PM
I would be Interesse to learn more about shouting and yelling after healing is finished. My concern that my voice will stay very thin after surgery. What are your experiences?

That I can answer. Yes you are supposed to be able to do it but even without surgery it's not a good thing to do very much. Anything that cause pain and done for an extended period of time will damage the voice. We have a girl on here who's past time involves a good deal of yelling. It took extra healing time because Dr Haben needed to remove some of the damage from years of abuse.

Dr Haben said no yelling before the voice is completely healed and even at four months, I am not comfortable with using any more volume than a normal speaking voice.

I am very tempted to chose Dr Haben for my surgery. The reason being is that I lost some pitch years ago following trachea shave and I'm worried Dr kim's methode might not give me satisfactory results. From.what I've read. Cta might fix the lost pitch caused by trachea shave.

It seems that Dr. Kim compensates for this by shortening the vocal cords a little bit extra (for those who've been affected by trachea shave), which makes me have concerns that i might sound like mikey mouse.

I have been in touch with both surgeons. Dr kim advised that my voice is not too deep and that his method should be able to give me satisfactory results. Dr Haben, on the other hand insists that cta is strongly recommended in my case (plus glottoplasty) to undo the damage caused by trachea shave.

I am worried about the risks involved with cta. I have read that some people's voices got deeper and that it is irreversible.

Any thoughts on this, girls?

Hey everyone

I just want to confirm that yes, my voice is fine. I sing correctly and never got misgendered on the phone even once, or even in the real life. Even when wearing a guy suit (I just tried that today lol I'm butch)

I don't know what happened. I had pain, and the voice went super slow - like it was before the surgery. I have a small recording I did at that time but I don't want to hear that ever again. I panicked and called Dr Haben and he told me that it was likely to be a stitch and to take 2 weeks of absolute silence to see what could heal.

In the end, maybe it was a stitch that healed well, or maybe it was just a panic. In any case I feel super relieved.

I took the time to create an account and post here for Roni who was still recovering. I was so afraid others would get the same sad fate for some unknown reasons. I had some luck but I don't want to stretch it (I won't shout for like a year a two !!). Neither should you. This voice is so precious.

Please girls PLEASE take super good care of your new voice! It's so depressing when it's there, then it's gone. Don't risk that. Don't talk for a week or 2, take your pills religiously, DONT RUN or get out of breath and go see a doc to get antibiotics if you get a cold. Your new voice is just too precious to risk.

I know that earlier voice surgeries sometimes failed but they have improved a good deal over the years and failures are rare. Should the surgery fail, it can be corrected with another surgery. The restriction is that the surgery can't be undone so it would be a good idea to be far enough in your transition that you know your mind.

Thank you Dena. I schedule maybe like 10 days ago. Is it rude or bad manners to reschdule?

Doctors offices don't like rescheduling close to a surgical date because it may be hard to fill the slot but they understand that it can happen for a number of reasons beyond your control. In my case, I scheduled 3 weeks off but I am not sure I could have gone longer without having to go a far longer period of time. For some reason there were two windows close to the time I scheduled. Sometimes they are booked up almost 3 months out. Are you willing to wait that long for surgery?

As for not having sex until healed, it's not a problem. If I haven't done it yet, surely you can do without for a few weeks for something as nice as this.

So happy and relieved for you Isleeplikeacat! Your new speaking and singing voice sounds fantastic!

Isleeplikeacat!

That's fantastic news :) :) I am so relieved and happy for you. And you can still sing?! That's great news. Did you just get the glottoplasty or did you do the CTA?

I am at the point where I am freaking out and excited and happy and afraid all at once.

Btw, I wonder what I should wear going into the office... or should I just dress for comfort?

Audree

Quote from: Dena on November 16, 2015, 09:35:13 PM
I know that earlier voice surgeries sometimes failed but they have improved a good deal over the years and failures are rare. Should the surgery fail, it can be corrected with another surgery. The restriction is that the surgery can't be undone so it would be a good idea to be far enough in your transition that you know your mind.

Thanks Dena,

The thought of living with a deeper voice scare me so much! I know the surgery is irrevesible and that would be wonderful if a positive outcome is achieved! However, cta seems to scare me because of its risks. Do u know the success rate by any chance?

Quote from: Ritana on November 16, 2015, 11:11:49 PM
Thanks Dena,

The thought of living with a deeper voice scare me so much! I know the surgery is irrevesible and that would be wonderful if a positive outcome is achieved! However, cta seems to scare me because of its risks. Do u know the success rate by any chance?

So far I only know of one case where the thread used to squeeze the larynx failed but I don't know why it failed. It could have been because a material failure or because it pulled through releasing the squeeze. Several girls here have had CTA and are very happy with the results. I wanted to maintain the range in my voice so my plan was to avoid CTA if I didn't need it. As it turned out, I didn't need it but I was glad I had the option available.

When I went out the first time in September of 2014 He did my voice surgery and the stitches Broke free. So after the normal healing time. I talked to him on the phone and my voice had not changed one bit. So I went back on April 29th 2015 and he did my surgery again and this time he put 2 stitches in place of the one and I did get a little results but still not worth the time or expanse. I have been getting voice lessons eve sense and i have had far better results with that. The surgery dose work to a degree But I have lost both top and bottom range and i now have a very narrow range to work with. Also mi voice is still healing at this time and at times it has been very raspy. Just take the voice lessons you can get a lot more for your dollar there.

Quote from: Lyndsey on November 29, 2015, 03:46:57 PM
When I went out the first time in September of 2014 He did my voice surgery and the stitches Broke free. So after the normal healing time. I talked to him on the phone and my voice had not changed one bit. So I went back on April 29th 2015 and he did my surgery again and this time he put 2 stitches in place of the one and I did get a little results but still not worth the time or expanse. I have been getting voice lessons eve sense and i have had far better results with that. The surgery dose work to a degree But I have lost both top and bottom range and i now have a very narrow range to work with. Also mi voice is still healing at this time and at times it has been very raspy. Just take the voice lessons you can get a lot more for your dollar there.

Everyone is different. Training did nothing for me. Surgery (Dr Kim/Yeson) was a life changer.

For some the surgery may not work and voice training may be better. But that is by no means universal.

Quote from: iKate on November 29, 2015, 09:00:55 PM
Everyone is different. Training did nothing for me. Surgery (Dr Kim/Yeson) was a life changer.

For some the surgery may not work and voice training may be better. But that is by no means universal.

I agree with this.  Sometimes the surgery isn't worth the effort, but even the worst case scenarios seem to be that you end up back where you started.  If my voice doesn't see much change (still way too early for me to tell and still suffering laryngitis) I will for sure be very disappointed in the wasted time and money but at least I won't be negatively impacted in the end. I think each person has to weigh the pros and cons and I think it's a good idea to at least *try* therapy first. Ultimately it's a personal decision and many, many patients of Dr. Kim and Dr. Haben have had life changing results.  We all knew the risks going in, myself included, so just have to follow the instructions and hope for the best.  As I've said before, I really feel for anyone who hasn't gotten their desired result, and who knows- I may be in that boat as well.  If things don't turn out I'll go back to therapy and work with what I have :)

I had sufficient voice therapy to know my voice wasn't passable without surgery. I also understood my post surgical voice would need the trained voice in order to hit the pitch I need. What I didn't expect was my limited pre surgical voice would have a greatly expanded range after surgery. Pre surgery I could span little more than half an octave and post surgical I can span a bit more than an octave and a half. It might be something about my voice that was special, I don't know but I sure didn't plan on it happening.

I've been following this and as someone that just had surgery with Dr Haben, I'd like to say that the surgery itself is something that definitely has the potential to change everything. The thing is, everyone heals differently and as a result, gets a different result. Sometimes this means an increase in pitch beyond what was ever expected. Other times, it means not much changes. I knew going into this that there was a possibility of getting little to no improvement and possibly losing some vocal clarity if healing doesn't go as expected. These results can't really be linked to the surgery itself. That on its own does nothing. It's the six month healing that creates the webbing and allows for the higher pitch. Aftercare is the most important part. I can say that so far my voice (what little I can get out) sounds perhaps a tiny bit higher, but may even be the exact same as pre-op. I will wait until the six months pass before making my judgement as to wether or not this procedure was a success. It's what I knew i would have to do going in. I hope I get improvement, but if I don't, I will be okay with it. I won't like it, but I won't blame anyone, not even myself. I chose to try it, and I'll never regret that.


~Evelyn