Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Transgender Americans Have Been Registering Their Transitions With Social Security Since 1936

http://www.psmag.com/politics-and-law/data-on-transgender-americans

PS Magazine/y Francie Diep    10/05/2015

"Very few surveys ask people if they're transgender. One economist managed to mine American government data for clues to the transgender American experience over the last seven decades."

Once upon a time a Social Security number was intended ONLY for Social Security. You had no options to op out if you didn't want to be a part of the system. The Social Security number was not to be used for identification. It said that right on the card the government issued. Over time, all your financial became tied to this number that was not to be used for identification. Now we learn the government is mining our not to be used for identification number to determine our personal history. I am not happy.

While I resent the data mining, it was interesting to note that there were fewer than 22,000 who changed their legal gender. Wow. That is a staggering low number. Who wouldn't change their gender after changing their name with the SSA and everything else we go through? I'm having a hard time with this. There has to be more post-ops than this by now.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on October 05, 2015, 04:03:05 PMWho wouldn't change their gender after changing their name with the SSA and everything else we go through? I'm having a hard time with this. There has to be more post-ops than this by now.

I don't know about the Post-Op count, but getting a doctor's letter is sometimes more difficult than a name change. I went Full-Time and changed my name before I started HRT. The former only required me to present female at work as I was already presenting female in my personal time. The latter required some paperwork and several hundred dollars. By comparison, the DMV/SSA letter requires a doctor's signature, which some may not want to give until you've been seeing them for a while.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on October 05, 2015, 04:03:05 PM
While I resent the data mining, it was interesting to note that there were fewer than 22,000 who changed their legal gender. Wow. That is a staggering low number. Who wouldn't change their gender after changing their name with the SSA and everything else we go through? I'm having a hard time with this. There has to be more post-ops than this by now.

Cindi

When I tried to get my gender changed in 2013 the supervisor there kept me for for 45 minutes while poring through regulations to try to figure out a way he didn't have to do it. He asked me invasive questions ("Did you have surgery?" "You can't ask me that, it's not a requirement." "I can ask you anything I want"), a patronizing attitude ("You need to calm down ma'am. Just calm down."), and cryptic statements ("You can't get your gender changed until your treatment is complete." "What do you mean by 'my treatment is complete'?", which he refused to answer). He ended up sending me home because my doctor's license number was not on the letter. Apparently there are two sets of rules, and the page at their website only contains one of them.

I couldn't get my doctor to write another letter with his medical license # on it, so I ended up waiting for a year until I had my surgery.

I haven't read the article and only have read what's been posted here but, can anyone tell me how the Social Security finds out and registers your personal transition process thus outing you to them that you're trans?

Quote from: Cindi Jones on October 05, 2015, 04:03:05 PM
While I resent the data mining, it was interesting to note that there were fewer than 22,000 who changed their legal gender. Wow. That is a staggering low number. Who wouldn't change their gender after changing their name with the SSA and everything else we go through?

Well, there are reasons (none of which applied to me). When I changed my name and gender (pre-op), my attorney recommended that I change my name at SSA but not my gender. When I asked why, she said "Well, when you want to get married then you'll still be male on paper and you won't be denied, because it won't be a same-sex marriage."

I was taken aback by this, mainly because she automatically assumed I was a transbian and that I would naturally want to marry a woman. I wasn't offended by being labeled as lesbian, but I was offended that she saw this as a natural expression of my trans identity and didn't consider any other option.

But her point was valid. Same sex marriage was not the law of the land at the time, and I can see many instances where you could challenge and circumvent gender based laws to your advantage and in the process challenge the absurdity and injustice of those laws, by just omitting that little detail.

I think the data mining could be helpful for us. If it turns out that there are more trans people than we imagine then this could make us a more significant and powerful voice in the political landscape than we currently are.

Quote from: suzifrommd on October 09, 2015, 06:41:40 PM
When I tried to get my gender changed in 2013 the supervisor there kept me for for 45 minutes while poring through regulations to try to figure out a way he didn't have to do it.

Incredible. And shameful. I had no such issues in 2012, and I was pre-op. I'm so sorry to hear that you had to deal with that.

Changing at SS was actually pretty easy, although I did have to get them to look up their own rules first. Only took a letter from my doc and it had to have a few tid bits of specific info on it. That was before you didn't need surgery.

Quote from: suzifrommd on October 09, 2015, 06:41:40 PM
When I tried to get my gender changed in 2013 the supervisor there kept me for for 45 minutes while poring through regulations to try to figure out a way he didn't have to do it. He asked me invasive questions ("Did you have surgery?" "You can't ask me that, it's not a requirement." "I can ask you anything I want"), a patronizing attitude ("You need to calm down ma'am. Just calm down."), and cryptic statements ("You can't get your gender changed until your treatment is complete." "What do you mean by 'my treatment is complete'?", which he refused to answer). He ended up sending me home because my doctor's license number was not on the letter. Apparently there are two sets of rules, and the page at their website only contains one of them.

I couldn't get my doctor to write another letter with his medical license # on it, so I ended up waiting for a year until I had my surgery.

That's awful Suzi - you should not have been subjected to that kind of treatment.

I think the treatment you'll get at the SSA office has a lot to do with the agent you get and in what state the SSA office is located in. I live in California and I changed my name and gender at a SSA office in a suburb of L.A. about a year ago. I was was in and out in about 30 minutes with no issues whatsoever.  I did make sure to bring all of the required documents.

A friend of mine who also lives in California had a similar experience with SSA recently.

Hopefully the experience will soon be a smooth one at all SSA offices.

I changed my name at SS the same day that I received my legal name change.  Smooth as silk.  It wasn't until about a month later that I  thought about changing my gender, but this had more to do due with my desire to change my gender on my "Medicare Card" card. (As it references gender.)  Thought that it would be easy as well.  Created an online SS account at SS using my new name.  It is at this site, that one can request a new (or replacement) Medicare Card.  Sent in the request.  A few weeks later I received a letter from Medicare addressed to my new name. Although, the letter was addressed to my new name, inside was a replacement card from Medicare using my old name with no change to the gender marker).  Have since learned that one has to go back to SS and submit a letter from your MD saying that you "have completed your transition to the female gender."  (This is the same letter that I sent to Dept. of State with my legal name change docs. with my request for name change). The Dept. of State is supposed to change the gender on my passport accordingly as well.  Still waiting for my new passport.  Expecting it anyday. When I get it I'm going to take both my passport and the letter from the MD to SS and get this accomplished? 

I am going on Tuesday. I will be a pain in the butt if I have to. I have dr's letter in hand with medical license number and DEA number.

My letter also says that I've had "all necessary medical and surgical procedures to fully transition from male to female." What are they going to do? A panty check? Please. "Have you had surgery?" Yes, I have. I aint lying!!! I even told the judge I had surgery when I changed my name. He never asked what kind of surgery... I just said I had surgery related to my transition. None of their business anyway. My gender is between my ears not my legs.

Someone here told me the letter has to be notarized. I don't think that is true. Must be just a requirement in her state (Oklahoma) because that's what their DMV requires.

BTW if they have to look in their manual, it is RM 10212.200 in POMS.

I personally had no problems at all at the SS office in fact I was more concerned with how little the woman working there reacted to my information. I know I don't pass all that well, I wonder if they would have had more reservations about it all if they knew I had only been living as a woman for about 10-12 weeks at that point. But really I said I am here to change my name and gender and she reacted like I told her "here some junk mail arrived for you" just took my paperwork clicked away in silence as I sat there wondering what was happening then handed me everything back and told me I would get a new card in a week or two.

Oddly I seem to get similar reactions in lots of places friends, family, coworkers, random strangers. I mean I know its massachusetts and people are busy but I sorta expected some questions or comments. This treatment makes me mad...at myself for being so afraid of how people where going to react.

ok got off topic but ya Social security was a breeze the wait was the hardest part. Really I think when transisioning the waiting is the worst part over all, waiting for doctors, waiting for judges, waiting for hormones to do there thing, waiting for surgery dates. Lots of waiting.

Serena

If I ever got hassled like that in a government office, I'd just say: "You want me to pull down my pants? I'll show you right here and now." When I changed my SS number, I did take my letter from the surgeon and had no issues whatsoever.

Cindi

Quote from: iKate on October 11, 2015, 05:25:33 PM
I am going on Tuesday. I will be a pain in the butt if I have to. I have dr's letter in hand with medical license number and DEA number.

My letter also says that I've had "all necessary medical and surgical procedures to fully transition from male to female." What are they going to do? A panty check? Please. "Have you had surgery?" Yes, I have. I aint lying!!! I even told the judge I had surgery when I changed my name. He never asked what kind of surgery... I just said I had surgery related to my transition. None of their business anyway. My gender is between my ears not my legs.

Someone here told me the letter has to be notarized. I don't think that is true. Must be just a requirement in her state (Oklahoma) because that's what their DMV requires.

BTW if they have to look in their manual, it is RM 10212.200 in POMS.

My HRT doctor did notarize my letter but I don't remember anyone saying it was necessary.

Quote from: Sydney_NYC on October 12, 2015, 08:16:10 PM
My HRT doctor did notarize my letter but I don't remember anyone saying it was necessary.

Someone on FB said that it was. I texted you the details. I don't like publicly shaming people for an innocent mistake, but suffice to say she is wrong.

Quote from: iKate on October 12, 2015, 08:23:56 PM
Someone on FB said that it was. I texted you the details. I don't like publicly shaming people for an innocent mistake, but suffice to say she is wrong.

I was saying that in reference to when using my letter to change SS and Passport, I don't remember anyone saying anything about the notarization on my letter. Meaning I didn't get any indication that they were looking for the notarization on the letter. I do think some states require notarization for letter to change the gender marker on birth certificates. I believe New York State does,

Quote from: Sydney_NYC on October 12, 2015, 08:32:29 PM
I was saying that in reference to when using my letter to change SS and Passport, I don't remember anyone saying anything about the notarization on my letter. Meaning I didn't get any indication that they were looking for the notarization on the letter. I do think some states require notarization for letter to change the gender marker on birth certificates. I believe New York State does,

I believe that NJ doesn't require a notarized letter but requires surgery.

The state in question was Oklahoma which requires a notarized letter even for driver license gender change.

But in NJ notarization is not required for anything. Neither is it required federally.

I changed my name and gender with SS about a half hour after I got my name and gender change done in court. (There was a SS office across the street from the courthouse.)  All I needed was an original certified copy of the court order.  There was no need for the Doctors letter because I had the court order directing the gender change in addition to the name change.  I had already completed Form SS-5 when I walked into the SS office.

As iKate said, RM 10212.200 (effective 09/30/2013) covers the change of SS data other than a name change.  Acceptable proof (besides a 10 year passport, state issued amended birth certificate or court ordered gender change)  is a doctors letter (must be M.D. or D.O.) that contains all of the following information:
- Physician's full name
- Medical license number
- Issuing state of license
- Address and telephone number of physician
- Language that the applicant has had appropriate clinical treatment for gender transition
- Language that the physician has treated the applicant in relationship to transition or has reviewed the applicants medical history in relationship to gender change and the physician is in a doctor/patient relationship with the applicant
- A statement that say's "I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States that the foregoing is true and correct."  It does not require that the statement be notarized.

This directive specifically states that "Surgery is no longer required to change the sex field on the Numident."  Thus any questions about that issue are irrelevant and not necessary. 

Good luck to everyone doing this.

Quote from: Jessie Ann on October 12, 2015, 10:26:09 PM
I changed my name and gender with SS about a half hour after I got my name and gender change done in court. (There was a SS office across the street from the courthouse.)  All I needed was an original certified copy of the court order.  There was no need for the Doctors letter because I had the court order directing the gender change in addition to the name change.  I had already completed Form SS-5 when I walked into the SS office.

This directive specifically states that "Surgery is no longer required to change the sex field on the Numident."  Thus any questions about that issue are irrelevant and not necessary. 

Good luck to everyone doing this.

I transitioned in 85 to 87. The legal requirements were much more stringent back then and if "it" was still there, the gender marker would not change. I am absolutely thrilled that it is now easier to get legal documentation changed now. There has been so much progress.

Cindi

I did mine today. Court order became effective on Sunday but yesterday was a holiday.

It was straightforward. I filled out the forms at home, printed it and carried it in.

I had my letter, court order and new photo ID with name and gender corrected.

Took a number and they called me to the window. I gave the guy the docs and said I need to update my name and gender. He took the docs in the back because he had to consult a supervisor I think. He came back and said all was well, he just needed to find out what the proper procedure was and make sure the letter was in the correct format.

He then did a whole bunch of stuff on the computer, printed out an order for a new card, had me verify the data. He took it back when I verified and gave me back my docs. He destroyed the old social security card.

I should have it in the mail soon and then I can update my name at payroll and the other places at work where I needed to wait until an official legal name change.

My letter was NOT notarized and it didn't have to be.

Quote from: iKate on October 13, 2015, 06:41:55 PM
I did mine today. Court order became effective on Sunday but yesterday was a holiday.

It was straightforward. I filled out the forms at home, printed it and carried it in.

I had my letter, court order and new photo ID with name and gender corrected.

Took a number and they called me to the window. I gave the guy the docs and said I need to update my name and gender. He took the docs in the back because he had to consult a supervisor I think. He came back and said all was well, he just needed to find out what the proper procedure was and make sure the letter was in the correct format.

He then did a whole bunch of stuff on the computer, printed out an order for a new card, had me verify the data. He took it back when I verified and gave me back my docs. He destroyed the old social security card.

I should have it in the mail soon and then I can update my name at payroll and the other places at work where I needed to wait until an official legal name change.

My letter was NOT notarized and it didn't have to be.

Yay! Another one bites the dust! Go girl.

When I went to the rmv after going to the social security office I did not have my card yet, it didn't matter because the number dose not change and they look it all up on there network. So I actually got the licence in the mail like 3 days later the ss card a week or so after that and a brew debit card a day or two after the ss card.

Serena

Question for those who changed Gender after Name...what form did you fill out? Did they send you a new card? I ask because my card only lists name and SSN (no mention of sex or gender). But, the state requires you to have updated your information (or they did when I got my name change) with Social Security (at least a day) before you can change your license. There really isn't any need for a new SS card as it would say exactly the same thing as my current one, but updating SS is required for a new license.

You need to fill out form SS-5. 

I'm not sure I can post a link to the SS Administration page but if you go to the SS website and put gender change into the search box you will get the page that has instructions on changing gender.  Hopefully the web address is ok to post so you can cut and paste.

https://faq.ssa.gov/link/portal/34011/34019/Article/2856/How-do-160-I-change-my-160-gender-on-160-Social-Security-s-records

Quote from: lisarenee on October 14, 2015, 01:23:54 PM
Question for those who changed Gender after Name...what form did you fill out? Did they send you a new card? I ask because my card only lists name and SSN (no mention of sex or gender). But, the state requires you to have updated your information (or they did when I got my name change) with Social Security (at least a day) before you can change your license. There really isn't any need for a new SS card as it would say exactly the same thing as my current one, but updating SS is required for a new license.

*

I began a long time ago (1978).  I merely wrote about my beginning transition circumstance to SSA and explained that I was under medical care.  A few weeks later or so I got a surprise in the mail - my new SSA card.

SSA accepted me and changed my file; SSA showed me as Sharon and female though I was still employed as my male predecessor Nick.  SSA reports this in their periodic discrepancy list to each employer.  That caused immediate trouble where I worked at a personnel office for a federal agency (1978 - 1985).  One day early in my tenure I came back to my desk overhearing my supervisor, the agency office's Personnel Director, and another office supervisor in the discussion of 'She's a he.', 'No, he's a she.'  They were trying to figure me out unaware of my presence nearby.

I eventually endured nearly six years of harassment and bullying; I still don't know why I stayed.  But where was I to go?  Such discrimination was likely elsewhere during the early 1980s.

The worst of this work situation was when a subsequent supervisor summoned me to her office and outright told me she was initiating action to fire me on the charge that I was a female working there as a male; she told me, 'We can't have you doing that here.'  Apparently neither she nor other managers recognised my direction was male to female.  I regret not returning to work the next day as Sharon and putting the issue back in her court.  Instead I fought the separation action for two futile years until it wore me down.  I achieved vindication; I filed my Unemployment Insurance claim as Sharon / female.  UI agreed with my case and ruled in my favorur that the employer subjected me to nearly six years of a hostile work environment.

SSA roared again a decade ago.  For an as yet unexplained reason, SSA reverted my record to my long ago former predecessor Nick and male.  That brought about my name to my state agency employer again with the same dangerous issues.  Here we go again.

The state agency manager summoned me to her office and asked me why my SSAN changed from Sharon and female to Nick and male.  I refused to answer - it was none of their business.  I went to SSA to determine how to fix it; they told me to go back to court and get a new Name / Sex change court order and they will restore me to Sharon and female.  Done.  My state agency employer fired me anyway for being a transsexual.  I sought recovery to my job through my state's process and won but my agency still refused to restore me to my position.  I went back to UI and won again for the same reason as two decades earlier - my employer enacted an intolerable work environment against me.

Oh no, we're not finished with SSA.  My home was burglarised and ransacked last year; the thieves stole my medical files and payroll files containing my intimate information and SSAN.  I went to SSA to report this to thwart identity theft.  Oh no, not again!  I made numerous trips back and forth to SSA from January through July this year getting them to correct their latest reversions - yes, multiple times this year alone they repeatedly flipt my file between one and the other.  In fact, I departed SSA on a Wednesday with their own document in my hands declaring they corrected their error once and for all back to Sharon and female.  I returned to SSA two days later on Friday to verify my file and again they had reverted it to Nick and male and refused to tell me why.

My file is supposedly now still Sharon and female - but I'm not holding my breath.

Through all this, SSA refuses to explain their actions.

The definitive authority is SSA Regulation 'RM 10212.200′ rather than what the SSA web-site posts.  (I have a copy of that SSA regulation at my personal web-site.)  Notary is NOT required per SSA's own requirement.

*

Quote from: Jessie Ann on October 14, 2015, 04:42:43 PM
You need to fill out form SS-5.

So, you have to apply for a new card even though one is not really needed. I would have hoped that they would have a form to correct information not listed on the card, but this is the federal government we are talking about.

Sharon Anne, you have been through hell. I sympathize with you. I changed mine in 87. The process was smooth and painless. Work was hellish, though. I went through some of the same crap. I thought that I'd never lose it.

Cindi

Yep.  But it does let them have only one form for application for a card and to make changes.  The form actually states that it is apply for an initial card, replacement card or to change information.  You can probably ask them to not send a new card because there is a limit on the number of cards they will issue to individuals - 3 per calendar year and 10 in their lifetime.  I believe that I have now been issued 4 or 5 over the last 50 + years.

Quote from: lisarenee on October 15, 2015, 12:49:24 PM
So, you have to apply for a new card even though one is not really needed. I would have hoped that they would have a form to correct information not listed on the card, but this is the federal government we are talking about.

Quote from: Jessie Ann on October 15, 2015, 01:33:12 PMthere is a limit on the number of cards they will issue to individuals - 3 per calendar year and 10 in their lifetime.  I believe that I have now been issued 4 or 5 over the last 50 + years.

I remember reading that when I was there last time. I think it said that name changes don't count against the limit, though. I have had 2 cards this Calendar year and at least 3 cards so far --

1) September 14, 2001: I'm not sure if this was the original, but it is the one my parents gave me when I got my first job (for the Form I-9).

2) April 2015: The Clerk of Courts in my county required a copy of my SS Card and a Certified Copy of my Birth Certificate before they would give me a court date. I had a scanned copy of my SS Card, but had lost the actual card. They accepted the petition with a printout of the scanned copy, but said I'd have to apply for a new one because the judge might make me show it. I was born in the same state I live so getting a Birth Certificate was a simple run down to the Health Dept. during my Lunch break. They also told me to bring another copy (as they had kept the one I submitted) of my Birth Certificate. I applied for a new SS Card and got it a week later. On my court date, the Bailiff only asked for my Driver's License, which is what I've heard from the other person I know who did their name change in the same county.

3) May 2013: A few weeks later, I got my name change and had to get a new card.

Quote from: iKate on October 13, 2015, 06:41:55 PM
I did mine today. Court order became effective on Sunday but yesterday was a holiday.

It was straightforward. I filled out the forms at home, printed it and carried it in.

I had my letter, court order and new photo ID with name and gender corrected.

Took a number and they called me to the window. I gave the guy the docs and said I need to update my name and gender. He took the docs in the back because he had to consult a supervisor I think. He came back and said all was well, he just needed to find out what the proper procedure was and make sure the letter was in the correct format.

He then did a whole bunch of stuff on the computer, printed out an order for a new card, had me verify the data. He took it back when I verified and gave me back my docs. He destroyed the old social security card.

I should have it in the mail soon and then I can update my name at payroll and the other places at work where I needed to wait until an official legal name change.

My letter was NOT notarized and it didn't have to be.

Congratulations!

I did not have a notary for my letter of gender marker change either. Though It needs to be an original not a copy. Blue ink for the dr signature is helpful.

SSA - POMS  RM 0205.400 governs the limits on replacement cards.  Based on the SSA regulations your #1 doesn't count because it was issued prior to 12/17/2005, and your #3 doesn't count because it was issued because of a legal name change.

You probably should take a copy of RM 0205.400 because it will provide guidance to the SSA clerk who changes your gender on how they can suppress the issuance of a new card.  Transactions where just the Numident information is changed and issuance of a new card is suppressed does not count towards the card limit.

Here is the link -  https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0110205400

Quote from: lisarenee on October 15, 2015, 05:39:00 PM
I remember reading that when I was there last time. I think it said that name changes don't count against the limit, though. I have had 2 cards this Calendar year and at least 3 cards so far --

1) September 14, 2001: I'm not sure if this was the original, but it is the one my parents gave me when I got my first job (for the Form I-9).

3) May 2013: A few weeks later, I got my name change and had to get a new card.

I've had a few SS cards.

One was my initial card, with the legend, "not valid for employment without INS authorization."

The other was when I had the legend removed as I got my permanent green card rather than just a work permit.

When I became a citizen I went to update that info and they mailed me a new card. Same name, but new card?

Now they are going to send me a new card with my updated name.

So that will be 4 cards so far.

I don't believe any of those will count towards the total.  Your change of immigration/work authorization status doesn't apply.  Additionally, any cards obtained before 12/17/2005 don't count towards the total.  The initially issued original card isn't counted, nor are the removal of restrictive legends counted. 

So based on the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act (IRTPA) of 2004 (which is where the limits come from) I am still at 0, even though I have had 4 cards issued during my lifetime.  Three were before 2005 and the last one was because of a legal name change.

Quote from: iKate on October 15, 2015, 09:20:40 PM
I've had a few SS cards.

One was my initial card, with the legend, "not valid for employment without INS authorization."

The other was when I had the legend removed as I got my permanent green card rather than just a work permit.

When I became a citizen I went to update that info and they mailed me a new card. Same name, but new card?

Now they are going to send me a new card with my updated name.

So that will be 4 cards so far.

Joi -

Once you have your newly issued 10 year passport that is all you have to take to the SSA to change your gender marker.  You can take your doctors letter if you think you will need additional documentation but it only has to say that you have had "appropriate clinical treatment for gender transition" it doesn't have to say that you "have completed your transition to the female gender."  It is in the previously mentioned Program Operations Manual System (POMS)  RM 10212.200.

https://secure.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/0110212200

Quote from: Joi on October 11, 2015, 03:30:30 AM
I changed my name at SS the same day that I received my legal name change.  Smooth as silk.  It wasn't until about a month later that I  thought about changing my gender, but this had more to do due with my desire to change my gender on my "Medicare Card" card. (As it references gender.)  Thought that it would be easy as well.  Created an online SS account at SS using my new name.  It is at this site, that one can request a new (or replacement) Medicare Card.  Sent in the request.  A few weeks later I received a letter from Medicare addressed to my new name. Although, the letter was addressed to my new name, inside was a replacement card from Medicare using my old name with no change to the gender marker).  Have since learned that one has to go back to SS and submit a letter from your MD saying that you "have completed your transition to the female gender."  (This is the same letter that I sent to Dept. of State with my legal name change docs. with my request for name change). The Dept. of State is supposed to change the gender on my passport accordingly as well.  Still waiting for my new passport.  Expecting it anyday. When I get it I'm going to take both my passport and the letter from the MD to SS and get this accomplished?