Susan's Place Transgender Resources

"Citizens for a Responsible Curriculum"

http://notmyshower.com/

"Bill 23-07 adds "gender-identity" to the current Non-Discrimination Law, and will allow males who self identify themselves as females to have open access to ALL women's and girls' restrooms, locker rooms, dressing rooms, and showers. In other words, a male teacher or student will be able to use the female restrooms and locker rooms if he thinks he is a female."

Karen

I suggest not.

They have a point, don't they?

While they're motives may be questionable, I sorta share some of their concerns. A woman walking into a restroom marked "Women" has every right to expect to encounter only other females while in there. *I* don't even feel I have a right to use women's rooms, since I'm still legally male with male parts. I do it, but I accept the risk that someone might protest, and would have a valid right to do so - although I'd hope to be forgiven once once my transitioning status was known. Which is why I still always have with me my "Carry Letter," old and new Driver's Licenses and Court Ordered Name Change. I realize and accept that I AM bending societies rules at the moment, so I'm making every effort to accomodate any concerns they may have until I can blend back into the system as a legal female.

The existing policy of matching genitals with restroom labels, but with an assumed "don't ask don't tell" policy that transitioning transsexuals won't be bothered, seems to generally work. If they want to make that exception into a law, make it so that ONLY medically diagnosed, transitioning transsexuals can legally use restrooms contrary to their genitals. Otherwise, the whole concept of "Men" and "Women's" rooms becomes meaningless.

~Kate~

Respectfully... "Men" do not belong in women's restroom, or change rooms, it matters not who or what they identify as.  Diagnosed Transsexuals are different in that they are women with a male body, but even then some would be very uncomfortable with pre-op male genitalia being in the women's washroom.  A carry letter certifying TSism may be the way to go but who is to say that they have not been faked.

Call me a prude, but I would not want and I would protest loudly should a young daughter of mine be exposed to a "Man" in the same washroom.

Steph

I dont want to sound callous but this has to do with the passing business. 

I must say I had a good long hard think about this last night.

So where does a cross dresser go to the toliet. The disable toliet is the best as it is usaly gender nutural - but I have been to the ladies when out as Alice - just the best of a bad choice.

I read a lot on their website and a few subseqent websites and in the end they did not want to understand us - and tried to blame the condition on our releationship with our fathers - so I had to distrust what they where saying. If they came from the point of view of seing a problem and looking for a solution (gender nutural bathrooms) it would of been ok - but their propergander was unacceptable to me in the end.

Alice

By judging people on who they are rather than what they do we are sinking to the same level as the right wingers who would deny us our rights.  The mere presence of a penis, even if it's on a heterosexual male cross dresser or a pre/non-op lesbian transsexual, does not hurt anyone.

People ought to be judged on what they do, not who they are, if ya ask me, as assuming that someone doesn't belong in a bathroom because of what their bodies look like is negatively judging, dare I say prejudging, the same way bigots prejudge us.

Rude behavior in any public restroom: gawking, peeing standing up, rude comments, etc. should be punished (I suggest public flogging) but simply going to the bathroom and behaving the way the rest of the people in that bathroom behave should not be sanctioned.  And under behavior, I also mean what clothes they put on and their attempted presentation.

The bigots keep trying to make trans people's use of public bathrooms for the gender they identify with an issue of safety.  Has anyone ever heard of a woman being assaulted in a gendered public bathroom by a trans person?  I haven't.  They do not have anything close to a point.  It's a deceitful strategy that panders to ignorance and unfamiliarity, the fear that arises from it and the hatred that can be generated out of that fear.

Sanction bad behavior, not identity, is my point.  To do otherwise is to fall into the same thought patterns that people use to discriminate against us.

emelye

Quote from: Emelye on November 22, 2007, 06:48:54 PM
By judging people on who they are rather than what they do we are sinking to the same level as the right wingers who would deny us our rights.  ...
...
emelye

And generally speaking I would agree if the person was a mtf transsexual however I have concerns with a "Man" who dresses in women's cloths because it makes "Him" feel good about himself, or a "Man" with a transvestic fetish who gets "Turned on sexually" wearing women's cloths, being in the same washroom as young girls.  I know for a fact from a close friend (CD) who used to get a ragging hard-on when he was out and about dressed in public - not appropriate for the "Women's" washroom.

Just because someone want to dress and look like a woman doesn't make them one.  Ya I know, I know I'm being narrow minded again.

Steph

Quote from: Steph on November 22, 2007, 07:35:56 PM

Quote from: Emelye on November 22, 2007, 06:48:54 PM
By judging people on who they are rather than what they do we are sinking to the same level as the right wingers who would deny us our rights.  ...
...
emelye

And generally speaking I would agree if the person was a mtf transsexual however I have concerns with a "Man" who dresses in women's cloths because it makes "Him" feel good about himself, or a "Man" with a transvestic fetish who gets "Turned on sexually" wearing women's cloths, being in the same washroom as young girls.  I know for a fact from a close friend (CD) who used to get a ragging hard-on when he was out and about dressed in public - not appropriate for the "Women's" washroom.

Just because someone want to dress and look like a woman doesn't make them one.  Ya I know, I know I'm being narrow minded again.
Steph

Yeap because it is not that simple. I tried to shut myself down cause I was worried that I would be seen a just a sexual devient and I felt I just did not fit in. Of course all I got was depression and I almost terminated myself because if the guilt, shame, anger and frustration of not being about to just get on with my life.

And in many ways now I am coming out of depression I have to face those sames feelings again  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(.

Why does it have to be so hard??

Alice

In Cali, anyone can use the restroom appropriate to their gender ID. I have never seen a problem occur. People need to grow up. The stalls are private. If some CD acts inappropriately, that can be dealt with.

Posted on: November 22, 2007, 08:11:54 PM

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Quote from: Steph on November 22, 2007, 04:41:37 PM
Respectfully... "Men" do not belong in women's restroom, or change rooms, it matters not who or what they identify as.  Diagnosed Transsexuals are different in that they are women with a male body, but even then some would be very uncomfortable with pre-op male genitalia being in the women's washroom. 

That would be their problem then, wouldn't it? I see trans woman in the gym locker room who are obviously pre-op, it doesn't bother me in the least.

Personally I don't think we need to grow up.  Women have been victimized far to long, and I think that this is just another case of "Men" inflicting their will on us.

Steph

There are those on the Right who wish to make post-op MtFs use the mens room for the rest of their lives.  They are using trans as the bogeyman to stir up support for their agenda.

There are CDs who get intense sexual arousal from dressing and going out.

I am pre-op.  I need a safe place to pee, dammit.  And there aren't enough unisex/handicapped/single-holers often when I go out.  I haven't been to a gym since I started transition, and I'm damned tired of driving home all sweaty.

I'm not going to hurt anyone.  And I'm damned tired of worrying if I'll get confronted and kicked out of a facility just because of my original factory equipment (even though it's been thoroughly disarmed thanks to anti-androgens.)

What if I were non-op?  What if it were for medical reasons?  I doubt if I'd be escorting a raging erection into the ladies' Sanctuary, ever.

Some of the posters to this thread who are calling for a total ban on penises in women's facilities used women's facilities while still in possession of said penises.  And claiming that nothing less than a total ban on penises is necessary, is disingenuous.

Can we propose a system for those who reach a certain stage in their transition where they should stop using facilities for their birth sex and are officially allowed to use facilities appropriate to their true gender?  A system that doesn't require the sometimes unattainable SRS, that will admit certain medically-verified pre-op MtFs?  Can we propose a system which reasonable str8 people can agree to?

May I suggest that guidelines be incorporated into the WPATH SOC.  A trans-woman who starts her RLE gets a potty-pass.  Make the card nigh-on impossible to forge or duplicate, with microprinting and foil holograms.  The card is an indication the bearer has been on HRT long enough to a) prove she's serious about transitioning and b) greatly reduce her male libido, thus rendering her very unlikely to sexually accost another woman or (horror!) girl in the facility.  Further, she should be admitted to dressing/showering facilities if they provide a private area to change and shower -- perhaps curtained changing/showering alcoves.  And make a system that will track and review complaints of inappropriate behaviour -- both to catch those who shouldn't be allowed this privilege, and to investigate claims to prevent cisgendered from using the system to harass transwomen.

There -- I've started the ball rolling.  Please improve on my system, or tweak the parameters.

Karen

I have no problem with women using the women's washrooms Karen, you are a woman, TS Women are women, they always have been and always will be.  It's men who I object to using our washrooms.

Steph

Quote from: Steph on November 22, 2007, 10:58:23 PM
I have no problem with women using the women's washrooms Karen, you are a woman, TS Women are women, they always have been and always will be.  It's men who I object to using our washrooms.

Steph

But it seems that some have said that possession of a penis bars one from using facilities reserved for women, even if the possessor is a full-on medically-certified transitioner.

I don't want guys in the locker room or toilet, either.

But I also don't want to be denied access merely on the technicality that I still possess one of those factory-equipment penises, nevermind how well I present nor how passible I may be.

Although I live in California, where there are laws preventing the denying of me access to facilities that match my gender presentation, and where the DMV provides a relatively easy method of changing the gender designator on my drivers' license, I work on a federal military reservation where said laws do not apply.  I recently found from my immediate supervisor that Civilian Personnel had determined that I was not to be allowed into female restrooms.  Essentially, unless I can find a unisex facility, I must use male facilities on base.  Thankfully, most people who know of me look the other way when I break said rule (regularly.)  But, they could make an issue of it.

And I haven't heard of a procedure to get that all changed once I finally do get SRS.  My plan is to first apply for a court-ordered change of gender, then wait six weeks for the court date and granting of the legal change.  After that, I'll apply to the Social Security Administration to change gender, then wait for it to propagate through the system (probably another two weeks.)  Then I'll apply to the Air Force Personnel Center to change my gender in their records.  Once I get the SF-50 form that shows the change is made, I will brazenly follow my flight chief into the restroom she uses and take the stall next to hers.  And if they feel that I still do not have the right to use the ladies room after all that, I will ask for them to say so in writing and then start a discrimination proceeding.

My suggestion is to come up with some reasonable standard for determining when a transitioner should switch from one facility to the other.  Other areas of the US are very much more restrictive than California is in these matters, although California can't beat Canada for progressiveness on this issue (help me out here, Dennis!)

Speaking of Dennis, I was amazed to find out just how progressive Canada is.  It makes parts of the United States sound like repressive third-world countries when it comes to trans issues.

Anyway, can we come up with some guidelines here?

Karen

Three months into my transition, even though I didn't feel especially passable, I was using the women's facilities at the local Navy base. I had only been on hormones a couple weeks. If I had been forced to use the men's facilities due to my "plumbing" or lack of time on hrt, I would have been in serious trouble.
Apparently, even that early, I passed better than I knew because no one ever complained. I've never used a "carry letter". The only thing I made sure of was I changed my name and ID legally before beginning my transition. I don't know of any other way of determining who should be able to use which rest rooms.
It seems to me that the world lacks any sense these days. I agree with Melissa. If someone acts inappropriately, call security. I they behave in a reasonable manner, leave them alone. There's enough grief in the world.

Karen Lyn

Quote from: Steph on November 22, 2007, 04:41:37 PM
A carry letter certifying TSism may be the way to go but who is to say that they have not been faked.

The one forced on me by my endoc is off of her prescription pad. To mess with a prescription pad is a felony so if all endocs in the US issued letters in that way maybe the letters would pass some sort of smell test.

However, what about butch females? I have a dyke friend who has had way more trouble using the womens restroom than I have had in my life.

Quote from: Emelye on November 22, 2007, 06:48:54 PM
Rude behavior in any public restroom: gawking, peeing standing up, rude comments, etc. should be punished (I suggest public flogging) but simply going to the bathroom and behaving the way the rest of the people in that bathroom behave should not be sanctioned.  And under behavior, I also mean what clothes they put on and their attempted presentation.

You have to be careful in defining "rude" bathroom behavior.  If you stop and think about it, most bathroom behavior flirts with being "rude".  Especially the standing up part, there once was an incident in probably a mall bathroom where a woman's feet were observed to face towards the toilet.  Women in the restroom panicked, security was summoned.  It turned out to be a woman empyting a colostomy bag.

Posted on: November 23, 2007, 09:28:35 AM

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Quote from: Steph on November 22, 2007, 08:29:22 PM
Personally I don't think we need to grow up.  Women have been victimized far to long, and I think that this is just another case of "Men" inflicting their will on us.

Why do we insist on preserving a victim mentality?  Does that make us our own worst enemy?

Posted on: November 23, 2007, 09:30:50 AM

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Quote from: Karen on November 22, 2007, 11:57:29 PM
My suggestion is to come up with some reasonable standard for determining when a transitioner should switch from one facility to the other.  Other areas of the US are very much more restrictive than California is in these matters, although California can't beat Canada for progressiveness on this issue

Even though this tiptoes down the seperate but equal path, why put the obligation on us to prove ourselves?  It becomes a never ending game, in some form or fashion we're constantly required to prove ourselves.

Simple solution, identify some facilities as gender neutral (or at least trans friendly), cisgendered women that don't mind sharing a bathroom with non-cisgendered women can choose accordingly as can cisgendered women that are uncomfortable with it.  For once, make them adapt to our needs, not the other way around.

Maybe for the fact that the majorty of people using restrooms approach it like a SWAT raid (get in, do what you need to do, get out) will highlight the insanity of "no penises allowed" and those people that have other motives in mind in the restroom, like they are already, will be severely dealt with.

I don't understand all the issues here? Like Steph said if you are female (that includes a variety of definitions i.e. TS pre or post OP etc. etc.) then why not use the ladies room? Men who are men have no business in the ladies room, in fact most men I know don't even consider using the ladies room that is unless theres a huge line LOL :) ya right that will never happen.

I tend look at this issue using the duck theory "if looks like a duck it must be a duck"

I had this problem with the city when I was trying to change the ordinance. There were people who thought the showers and locker rooms should be open to anyone who identitifies as TG. I disagreed, but stated that it could be open if they had some sort of ID that showed they were TS and were in the transitioning mode. That maybe there could be some accomodations made. Now, this is for locker rooms and showers, like in Gyms. Now, for restrooms, they should be open to anyone who identitifies as TG. If your expression is male then you use the mens room, if you ID yourself as female then you use the womens room. No one sees your private parts or shouldn't anyway. As far as men going into a womens restroom to do things to children or women, that is rediculous. I had a nation wide search for anything that remotely had anything to do with men dressing up as women to harrass them in the restroom. There was nothing. Yet, the church people still insist that will happen. A person needs to use the restroom, period.
Sheila

Quote from: Sheila on November 23, 2007, 10:47:09 AM
I had this problem with the city when I was trying to change the ordinance. There were people who thought the showers and locker rooms should be open to anyone who identitifies as TG. I disagreed, but stated that it could be open if they had some sort of ID that showed they were TS and were in the transitioning mode. That maybe there could be some accomodations made. Now, this is for locker rooms and showers, like in Gyms. Now, for restrooms, they should be open to anyone who identitifies as TG. If your expression is male then you use the mens room, if you ID yourself as female then you use the womens room. No one sees your private parts or shouldn't anyway. As far as men going into a womens restroom to do things to children or women, that is rediculous. I had a nation wide search for anything that remotely had anything to do with men dressing up as women to harrass them in the restroom. There was nothing. Yet, the church people still insist that will happen. A person needs to use the restroom, period.
Sheila

And I agree - men should use mens facilities and women should use womens facilities.  "Men dressing up as women" should not be in the womens washroom or anyother womens facilities.  It all comes down to acceptance, I challenge anyone to go to the gym and let mr wobbly loose and see how much acceptance you get, forcing people to accept us does not mean acceptance, educating them will.  And lets not get my concerns confused here.  If a TS is in transition going through RLE then that person has every right to use the facilities of the gender they identify as.  Men dressing to look the part, to feel good, or to get an emotional or sexual high do not.  Finally I don't think of myself as being rediculous when I have a concern that there are sexual predators out there.

Steph

Quote from: Alice on November 22, 2007, 04:56:50 PM
I must say I had a good long hard think about this last night.

So where does a cross dresser go to the toliet. The disable toliet is the best as it is usaly gender nutural - but I have been to the ladies when out as Alice - just the best of a bad choice.

Quote from: Steph on November 23, 2007, 12:30:57 PM
And I agree - men should use mens facilities and women should use womens facilities.

Steph

Which facility do we use in cases where it isn't obvious which gender someone is? Which one is going to be safe, both for the gender variant person who needs to pee, and the binary gendered? During my year long rlt, I used the ladies room when out, and never had any problems. I now identify as neither gender, or androgyne, I don't necessarily pass as either. Since I happen to be male bodied  :( I use the mens rest room, but I don't feel safe there. Even when making no effort to pass as female, I'm often told I'm going in the wrong door... Anyway, there is no clear line for many of us which door  to choose, and we need to be able to go to the bathroom without putting our lives in danger.

y2g

I think that you should use any bathroom you want. Now, if you look more male, like you haven't shaved in a while, then use the mens. If you look more female then use the womens. I just don't feel like there should be anything wrong here. I know most restrooms have stalls with locked doors, I said most. You can't see anything. The only problem would be when you go into the mens room, they have those ugly urinals. I hated those things. They were open and you might see something if you were looking.
Sheila

Posted on: November 23, 2007, 01:07:35 PM

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Steph, You don't agree with me at all. Please don't turn what I said all around. I don't feel that a man should be showing "Mr Wobbly" ?? around. I don't care if your in the mens room or not. Now, if you are in the showers, meaning taking your clothes off and going under a spray of water to clean yourself off. Then I think there should be some precautions, like private showers or whatever the management wants for the business. This has nothing to do with going to the bathroom to urinate or defecate, that can be done in privacy.

Quote from: Sheila on November 23, 2007, 01:30:39 PM
I think that you should use any bathroom you want. Now, if you look more male, like you haven't shaved in a while, then use the mens. If you look more female then use the womens. I just don't feel like there should be anything wrong here. I know most restrooms have stalls with locked doors, I said most. You can't see anything. The only problem would be when you go into the mens room, they have those ugly urinals. I hated those things. They were open and you might see something if you were looking.
Sheila

Posted on: November 23, 2007, 01:07:35 PM

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Steph, You don't agree with me at all. Please don't turn what I said all around. I don't feel that a man should be showing "Mr Wobbly" ?? around. I don't care if your in the mens room or not. Now, if you are in the showers, meaning taking your clothes off and going under a spray of water to clean yourself off. Then I think there should be some precautions, like private showers or whatever the management wants for the business. This has nothing to do with going to the bathroom to urinate or defecate, that can be done in privacy.

You're right I don't agree with you.  I re-read my post and I forgot to remove the "And I agree" part at the begining of my post, sorry if I caused any confusion, it was not my intent to turn your words around, I don't conduct myself that way, again I'm sorry if you got that impression.

Steph

Lots of post-op women look like men IMO, who is to decide? Just live and let live and if someone causes a problem, it can be dealt with. Again, it is not a problem in California.

Quote from: Sheila on November 23, 2007, 01:30:39 PM
I think that you should use any bathroom you want. Now, if you look more male, like you haven't shaved in a while, then use the mens. If you look more female then use the womens. I just don't feel like there should be anything wrong here.

I really don't know how I appear to others. I'm in between enough that I often look female to some men if walking in that door, but also probably look male enough that I'd flip out women if I used the womens room. Whenever possible I try to use single facilities, but that isn't always possible.

I'm in favor of availability of more facilities that are able to be used by either/any.

y2g

Quote from: Enigma on November 23, 2007, 09:38:14 AM


Why do we insist on preserving a victim mentality?  Does that make us our own worst enemy?[

Posted on: November 23, 2007, 11:16:29 AM

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Quote from: Enigma on November 23, 2007, 09:38:14 AM


Why do we insist on preserving a victim mentality?  Does that make us our own worst enemy?[

There are advantages, though morally questionable and not very mature, to playing the victim. I'll give two brief examples. My girlfriend's mom had been bullying both my girlfriend all her life and the rest of the family by lying and manipulating people into believing she is a victim, thus demoralizing anyone from standing up to her. Another example would be a male friend who grew up in the Hilltop region of Tacoma where he got the crap kicked out of him everyday at school by a gang of bullies. After "proving himself" by successfully fighting them each one on one, the leader of that gang took my friend in under his wing and taught him "the key to being a successful thug [I'm paraphrasing] is to always play the part of the victim and use that to your advantage".

Anyway, to get back on subject, I have a simple solution to the restroom problem but it will never happen; unisex restrooms. Partition the urinals in a separate area so women don't have to watch the men pee. Everyone has their own privacy in the stalls and there is no harm in everyone washing their hands together. The downside to this is that women will no longer have their own place of zen to gossip. That is why this will never happen, at least not in America.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 23, 2007, 01:55:01 PM
Just live and let live and if someone causes a problem, it can be dealt with...

But that's not the point. It seems some are implying that as long as a male behaves themselves in the women's room, I should just "get over it." But I don't think anyone has a right to make that determination for me, or for every other woman. If someone else doesn't mind sharing facilities with anyone and everyone, that's fine. But it's not fair to impose that perspective on everyone else as long as that sign says WOMEN on the door.

It's not a matter of punishing bad behaviour, or fearing someone doing this for sexual thrills. It's simply that many women are uncomfortable sharing an intimate "safe" space with men, no matter how polite they are, no matter what they can or can't see through a stall door.

~Kate~

I agree Kate, why should a 5 foot women
be the one to get over it if a hulking
6 foot maybe women if she squints walks trough
the door. Sometimes I feel we live in our own
little bubble and refuse to a least put ourselves
in the other person's position to try to
understand that they have a point too.

I agree that the gender variants should have a place
but just saying "get over it", is not an answer!

Unisex bathroom only work for me if they are single
stall with corridor access. That cannot handle high volumes
areas. Many restaurants have unisex bathrooms.

This is what I came up against down at city hall. The subject of this post is 'NO MEN IN THE LADIES LOCKER-ROOMS". Now, are locker rooms considered restrooms? I have never thought of it that way. I have always thought of locker rooms as a place to change after doing a job or exercise and coming from the showers. A place to change your clothes and to lock up your valuables. A restroom is a place were you go when nature calls and you have to get rid of waste products from your body and a place you can wash your hands and face. I have always felt they were two different places, now , sometimes there is  toilet in the locker room, but most always no lockers in a restroom. Am I missing something here. Anytime the word transgender came up, the restroom issue immediately followed. In Oregon, it's not against the law for the opposite gender to use the restroom. Just as long as they obey the laws.
Sheila

Posted on: November 23, 2007, 05:40:34 PM

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Steph, you are always so right on. I forget that you can make a mistake like I do. I shouldn't have jump so hastily, I'm sorry ;0(  I don't know how to get one of those Wal-Mart signs down. Hugs Sheila

What is so ironic is that all of those arguing against "men" in the ladies room are at one time or another perceived as men in the ladies room. If someone peeps through the stall, that can be dealt with. Again, grow up.

OK I'll put it this way...  I don't want men in my space whether that space be a locker room where I change cloths, fix my hair touch up my makeup, I don't want men in my washroom, and I don't want men in my locker room with a washroom.

It seems to me that there is a misconception that the only thing a woman does in the washroom are those things to satisfy the call of nature.  This could not be further from the truth.  Women socialize in the washroom, they change cloths and they fix each others cloths, they seek refuge, it's a safe haven, or it's generally thought to be.  Men don't belong in a women's washroom/change room.

Steph

I don't have any problems with transsexual women (pre, post, non-op) using the ladie's lounge, but I do have a problem with men who invade women's spaces in order to satisfy "other things" rather than a call from nature.

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 23, 2007, 05:47:47 PM
What is so ironic is that all of those arguing against "men" in the ladies room are at one time or another perceived as men in the ladies room. If someone peeps through the stall, that can be dealt with. Again, grow up.

Nope fraid not, I've always been a woman and I don't need to grow up, and I can guarantee you that I've suffered enough abuse at the hands of men to know that I don't want them in my space, give me one valid reason why a man should be allowed into women's facilities.

Steph

P.S. We're talking about "men", not TS Women

Not to get this all riled up. What about a woman with a penis? Are they allowed into the womans facilities?
Sheila

Quote from: Sheila on November 23, 2007, 06:12:50 PM
Not to get this all riled up. What about a woman with a penis? Are they allowed into the womans facilities?
Sheila

Are you referring to a ">-bleeped-<" or a person who is IS/TS

Steph

No, I'm referring to a person like me, who had a penis when I was born. I was never a man either, but I was born with a penis and they told me I was a man, but I never believed it.
Sheila

A pre-op or a non-op transsexual woman usually has a penis and yes, they should be allowed into the ladie's lounge, for they are women with the wrong anatomy.  Nevertheless, transvestites and men who cross-dress for sexual kicks and whatever else should not be allowed to invade women's spaces.  A transvestite or a cross-dresser is not a woman by definition, a transsexual woman (pre, post or non-op) is by definition and diagnosis.  I think people need to be educated about these differences because they are significant in implementing laws/policies such as these.

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Tink on November 23, 2007, 06:18:41 PM
A pre-op or a non-op transsexual woman usually has a penis and yes, they should be allowed into the ladie's lounge, for they are women with the wrong anatomy.  Nevertheless, transvestites and men who cross-dress for sexual kicks and whatever else should not be allowed to invade women's spaces.  A transvestite or a cross-dresser is not a woman by definition, a transsexual woman (pre, post or non-op) is by definition and diagnosis.  I think people need to be educated about these differences because they are significant in implementing laws/policies such as these.

tink :icon_chick:

I defer to Tink before I say something I may regret :)

Steph

Quote from: Steph on November 22, 2007, 07:35:56 PM



Just because someone want to dress and look like a woman doesn't make them one.  Ya I know, I know I'm being narrow minded again.

Steph

Thankyou steph... we've disagreed in the past, but on that point I agree. a transsexual m2f = woman. and is as likely to expose herself in those situations as any other woman, most likely LESS... these idiots get stuck on Jerry springer steriotypes as being what were all like...
and they SHOULD care about lesbians 'perving' in all women situations more than a straight m2f... natal woman, and transsexual lesbians maybe, but hey, sexuality defined restrooms? nah. silly isnt it? I CARE about what other women are doing in the lockerroom or loos about as much as i care about US poltics :P
misinformation, and biggotry eh?
this lot are  biblebashers 'zomg no teach about gays it might make people think they arnt deamons from HELLL!' :P
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on November 23, 2007, 07:23:04 PM

Quote from: Steph on November 22, 2007, 07:35:56 PM



Just because someone want to dress and look like a woman doesn't make them one.  Ya I know, I know I'm being narrow minded again.

Steph

Thankyou steph... we've disagreed in the past, but on that point I agree. a transsexual m2f = woman. and is as likely to expose herself in those situations as any other woman, most likely LESS... these idiots get stuck on Jerry springer steriotypes as being what were all like...
and they SHOULD care about lesbians 'perving' in all women situations more than a straight m2f... natal woman, and transsexual lesbians maybe, but hey, sexuality defined restrooms? nah. silly isnt it? I CARE about what other women are doing in the lockerroom or loos about as much as i care about US poltics :P
misinformation, and biggotry eh?
this lot are  biblebashers 'zomg no teach about gays it might make people think they arnt deamons from HELLL!' :P
R :police:

I feel left out not really identifying as TS at the moment - I am getting closer though.

Alice

im not trying to offend you alice, but womens room = for women, if you arnt one, its sortof a case of find somewhere neutral... if your medically female, either TS, or natal, etc. then womens room, aslong as you id female too :P
male? mens room, if you id male of course, some neutral restrooms should be available for TV, CD, and other gender groups, heck, anyone who wants to use it, to make life easier.
R :police:

Quote from: Tink on November 23, 2007, 06:18:41 PM
A transvestite or a cross-dresser is not a woman by definition, a transsexual woman (pre, post or non-op) is by definition and diagnosis.  I think people need to be educated about these differences because they are significant in implementing laws/policies such as these.

tink :icon_chick:

The lines between these categories aren't always clearly drawn. I was diagnosed TS, however someone else might see "man in a dress" in the womens room. I cannot control or change their perception, it is their right to see me however they will, even if that is at odds with my identity. I'm very sensitive to issues of safety, both that of other women, and my own as well, and have no desire to create discomfort.

In a hypothetical situation when a perceived crossdresser/transvestite is out "en femme" where can s/he safely go to the restroom? If she can't by law use the womens' room, then she must use the mens'... how can we guarantee her safety? I don't wish to see my sisters be hate crime statistics.

y2g

Posted on: November 23, 2007, 07:53:51 PM

---

Quote from: Alice on November 23, 2007, 07:28:52 PM
I feel left out not really itendifing as TS at the moment - I am getting closer though.

Alice

Alice, I don't care how you identify, you need to be able to safely use a rest room.

y2gen

Quote from: y2gender on November 23, 2007, 07:57:06 PM

Quote from: Tink on November 23, 2007, 06:18:41 PM
A transvestite or a cross-dresser is not a woman by definition, a transsexual woman (pre, post or non-op) is by definition and diagnosis.  I think people need to be educated about these differences because they are significant in implementing laws/policies such as these.

tink :icon_chick:

The lines between these categories aren't always clearly drawn. I was diagnosed TS, however someone else might see "man in a dress" in the womens room. I cannot control or change their perception, it is their right to see me however they will, even if that is at odds with my identity. I'm very sensitive to issues of safety, both that of other women, and my own as well, and have no desire to create discomfort.

In a hypothetical situation when a perceived crossdresser/transvestite is out "en femme" where can s/he safely go to the restroom? If she can't by law use the womens' room, then she must use the mens'... how can we guarantee her safety? I don't wish to see my sisters be hate crime statistics.

Zythyra, I think it would depend on how I identify myself as.  Am I TS, in other words, am I woman with the wrong anatomy?  If my answer is "yes", I would use the ladie's lounge regardless of my physical appearance.  Most of us are lucky to pass as women and do not face the bigotry of some people who don't have any idea of what being transsexual is (or the steps we must take to transition); however, there was a time when we were not so passable either, especially during the first months of HRT/RLT.  Did that fact prevent me from using the ladie's lounge?  Absolutely not!  once I went full-time, I started using it and I didn't care about what people thought.  Now, I am aware that everyone is different, but my point is:  if you are TS, you have every right to use the ladie's room.

Now on a personal note, I think that some of us are just too hard on ourselves.  I remember a picture you had on your avatar a while ago.  If that picture was you, I can't conceive how anyone in their right mind could confuse you for a "man in a dress".

tink :icon_chick:

Gender variant people should just use the restroom they are most comfortable in. Period. I know of post-ops who, for the life of me, I can't see as anything but men. Yet, I would never deny them their use of the ladies room. When we start trying to judge everyone and deny them basic rights, we just become bigots.

Quote from: Tink on November 23, 2007, 08:25:20 PM
Now on a personal note, I think that some of us are just too hard on ourselves.  I remember a picture you had on your avatar a while ago.  If that picture was you, I can't conceive how anyone in their right mind could confuse you for a "man in a dress".

tink :icon_chick:

Thanks for the comment Tink. Yes, the avatar picture that I previously used is me, or at least was how I looked few years ago... it isn't quite so easy to pass now as it was when I had more hair.  :'(

zythyra

men belong in the men's room and women in the lady's room.  no buts. no nothing.  be real people.  i dont want to share my space with a man.  if you wanna call it bigotry, then ok, i'm a bigot but i dont want men in the women's room.  period.

Quote from: Katia on November 23, 2007, 10:55:56 PM
men belong in the men's room and women in the lady's room.  no buts. no nothing.  be real people.  i dont want to share my space with a man.  if you wanna call it bigotry, then ok, i'm a bigot but i dont want men in the women's room.  period.

Except that a large number of people believe that you are a man. Who are you to judge who is a man or who is a woman? Do You want the same judgments made about yourself?

i dont give a damn what people believe.  if you are a diagnosed ts, then you are a woman; otherwise you are a man.  it is not rocket science ya know?

Quote from: Katia on November 23, 2007, 11:18:04 PM
i dont give a damn what people believe.  if you are a diagnosed ts, then you are a woman; otherwise you are a man.  it is not rocket science ya know?

Oh so you have to be diagnosed first? No, it is not rocket science, it is not science at all, it  is a basic human right to let people pee in the space that fits their gender ID based on their own criteria.

hey you can do whatever you please.  just dont suggest i've got to do the same please. call me a bigot or anything you want. i am a bigot, write that down and memorize it for future reference.  i dont want MEN in my space and i will report them if i see them trolling my space.  be sure of that. 

Melissa,
You keep saying "grow up",
but taking other people's opinion
in consideration is part of "growing up",
not feeling our point of view is universal and unchallenged.

Its a fact that many GG's will feel uncomfortable if an
obvious man, whatever their own self-diagnosis.
If the person's borderline, most women won't fret unless the
person's action are seen as treatening.

Denying reality and calling people bigots, when people are in their rights, won't solve anything.

In 10-15 years, maybe GG's will not feel uncomfortable because
of an education effort and surveillance cameras everywhere insuring
security even in the darkest recesses. But, for now, their fears have
nothing to do with bigotry and the current laws are on their side.

Quote from: Katia on November 23, 2007, 11:25:20 PM
hey you can do whatever you please.  just dont suggest i've got to do the same please. call me a bigot or anything you want. i am a bigot, write that down and memorize it for future reference.  i dont want MEN in my space and i will report them if i see them trolling my space.  be sure of that. 

I don't want anybody in "my space" that I don't want there either but public restrooms or restrooms in restaurants are not your space. All public restrooms should be unisex, especially considering the possibility that there are more than two genders (as I believe there is). Some doctors even think there are over 400 genders. Just because self identified bigots use the restroom to just hang out in there and talk without "men" being around doesn't mean that that is what a restroom SHOULD be used for.

Quote from: Emmalene on November 24, 2007, 01:44:42 AM

Quote from: Katia on November 23, 2007, 11:25:20 PM
hey you can do whatever you please.  just dont suggest i've got to do the same please. call me a bigot or anything you want. i am a bigot, write that down and memorize it for future reference.  i dont want MEN in my space and i will report them if i see them trolling my space.  be sure of that. 

I don't want anybody in "my space" that I don't want there either but public restrooms or restrooms in restaurants are not your space. All public restrooms should be unisex, especially considering the possibility that there are more than two genders (as I believe there is). Some doctors even think there are over 400 genders. Just because self identified bigots use the restroom to just hang out in there and talk without "men" being around doesn't mean that that is what a restroom SHOULD be used for.

any space labeled 'for women only' is my space because i'm a woman.  400 genders?  ha ha ha ha ha that's a matter of opinion....try to tell that to society and see what you get.  i only believe in two genders, male and female and so do all members of society except those who think that there are "400 genders".

Posted on: November 24, 2007, 01:55:10 AM

---

Quote from: Emmalene on November 24, 2007, 01:44:42 AM
Some doctors even think there are over 400 genders.

i want proof.  you said there are doctors that think there are over "400 genders" i wanna know who those doctors are; i wanna read their studies; i wanna speculate on their findings....

Quote from: Katia on November 24, 2007, 02:05:14 AM
any space labeled 'for women only' is my space because i'm a woman.  400 genders?  ha ha ha ha ha that's a matter of opinion....try to tell that to society and see what you get.  i only believe in two genders, male and female and so do all members of society except those who think that there are "400 genders

Be careful making such broad statements as "i only believe in two genders, male and female and so do all members of society".  Its easy enough to disprove, all you have to do is find one person that doesn't fit that statement to prove it false.

Enough philosophy though, clearly there is a great deal of anger among the forum members over this issue.  I think its already been said, repeatedly, but it bears repeating.  While we're busy drawing lines in the sand over who's allowed in and who's not, remember that to most of society our pass in to the woman only space is bought and paid for, not earned nor granted like some birthright.

Again its the dichotomy of passing vs.  not passing, which is really just a variation of "I'm more TS then you".  If we really want to get carried away, why not have to submit DNA proof to gain admission to any restroom?

This thing is getting very heated,

The 400 gender thing is pulled straight out of thin air Enigma,
if gender is a continuum, they'd be an infinity anyway, so
the 400 is pointless and for now unproveable for sure.

I'd like people to look at the definition of bigot because
its getting a real workout here.... Not everybody's who's
not espousing your universal worldview is a bigot.

So, if the US embraces androgyne's one day regardless
if its a proveably biological issue, and the rest of the
world still goes by a binary gender construct, everyone
else would be a bigot in this case!!!

As for unisex restroom, its a good thing if it is an adjunct to the current restroom situation. A Mall, could have the normal restrooms and then individual stalls with corridor access for parents with children, the gender variants, handicaped or anybody who wants to have more space and privacy.

Quote from: Keira on November 24, 2007, 04:23:55 AM
As for unisex restroom, its a good thing if it is an adjunct to the current restroom situation. A Mall, could have the normal restrooms and then individual stalls with corridor access for parents with children, the gender variants, handicaped or anybody who wants to have more space and privacy.

I suggested this yesterday...  :)

Quote from: Enigma on November 23, 2007, 09:38:14 AM
Simple solution, identify some facilities as gender neutral (or at least trans friendly), cisgendered women that don't mind sharing a bathroom with non-cisgendered women can choose accordingly as can cisgendered women that are uncomfortable with it.

All the rest of this bickering is actually rather pointless...

 Melissa, it would be helpful if you could accept an opinion occasionally without growling honey.

Katia: totally.  Men dont belong in women only spaces, and women dont belong in women only spaces, if i must carry a shrinks letter, or some medical form to prove in the rare occasion someone might say something, which i might add, hasnt happened yet. then its fine with me. If it got to a stage of self diagnosis for use, and presentation didnt matter.... all sorts of predators could pretend to 'identify' as female and get into the ladies room and lockerroom... all hell can break loose from too much trying to please every side... or in this case, the side that winges loud enough...
R :police:

Many TS people are extremely poor and can't afford to see a therapist for their diagnosis. They need a place to pee. I don't know about the 400 genders, but I know for sure based on who I am that there's more than two. And we all need a place to pee.

y2g

im a student, with no parental backing, i cant afford to eat properly, yet i got my gp to write me a letter saying i was undertaking gender reasignment... free. and fine. the uni gave me a female id card with that...
R :police:

All I ask is that we give the same tolerance to others that we ask toward oursleves. It is the height of hypocrisy to insist that only "diagnosed transsexual" be allowed in the ladies room. (in the case of "MtFs")

Gender variant people should be allowed to use the space that conforms to their self-identified gender or, in the case of androgynes, the space in which they are most comfortable. It is not up for me to judge what traits constitute a man and what traits constitute a woman. Banning people based on our own prejudices is wrong. How would the pre-ops like it if they were banned from the ladies room because they have a penis?

Tolerance.


Posted on: November 24, 2007, 09:33:51 AM

---

Those preaching intolerance are the ones who are failing to understand "other people's opinions." They are claiming and presuming "cissexual privilege." It is the same privilege that whites had in the American South to use the "white-only" bathroom. Instead of promoting Civil Rights, they would be telling us just wait 15 or 20 years for attitudes to change. When we preach intolerance we line up on the side of the bigots. Pure and simple.

Nobody's got to ask anything from anybody.  Live and let live and this applies to peeps who think men should be allowed in the lady's toilets.  Learn to respect other peep's opinions even if you dont agree with them.  That's the meaning of "live and let live" I'm entitled to my own opinions and you are to yours.  I dont want men using the same toilet as I do either.  If you feel otherwise, good but I dont. Pure and simple

I recently thought of something. A passable transsexual will bring a lot more unwanted attention to themselves if they use the restroom of their birth sex. I have a friend who is a post op transman with facial hair and a low manly voice. If he were forced to go into the women's restroom simply because he were born a girl, he would probably get security called on him.

That being said, nobody has really brought up that point. Instead they are saying things like "I deserve to have a place in the public sphere where "men" are not allowed because I was abused by men and men are oppressive and horrible". These people are full of hatred and bigotry and need to deal with their problems rather than forcing society to cope with their hatred for them. Mellisa was right to compare these people to white supremacists. She's not calling them bigots just because they don't agree with her. I can be annoyed by men hanging around too, especially if they are showboating. But that is another issue. If bigots want the public to give bigots their special space, we can always build an enclosure and put them all in there and keep them inside. There, they now have their "own space".

Forget the 400 genders thing, I found out about that because I was researching therapists who specialize in transgender issues and came across a doctor who believes that. I brought that up just to point out that the "two genders only" thing is not a view shared by everybody. What the rest of society believes about only two genders is irrelevant because most of them probably would not even consider transgendered people to be anything other than the sex they were born with.

I knew it was time for me to start using the ladies room when I could see that men were extremely uncomfortable with my presence. This was like a month into transition and not yet "diagnosed." Although I got a few looks and comments from women, I generally found more acceptance there than in the men's room and that was in Florida. It was in a ladies room, very early in my transition, where I was first told I was pretty by a stranger.

Quote from: Emmalene on November 24, 2007, 03:52:30 PM
Instead they are saying things like "I deserve to have a place in the public sphere where "men" are not allowed because I was abused by men and men are oppressive and horrible". These people are full of hatred and bigotry and need to deal with their problems rather than forcing society to cope with their hatred for them. Mellisa was right to compare these people to white supremacists. She's not calling them bigots just because they don't agree with her. I can be annoyed by men hanging around too, especially if they are showboating. But that is another issue. If bigots want the public to give bigots their special space, we can always build an enclosure and put them all in there and keep them inside. There, they now have their "own space"

So now women have been stripped of their rights, their dignity, and reduced to worthless "bigots" for simply wanting a safe space of their own? We're about one step away from saying it'd be fine now for men to walk in and rape the first woman he sees, since hey... HE has no problems with it, she has no rights to her safe space, and she'd be a man-hating, hate-filled bigot for rejecting him.

~Kate~

Safe space? There are millions of people who think YOUR presence in the ladies room is creating an unsafe space. Please cite documentation of a gender variant person causing anyone harm in a ladies room.

There are plenty of unisex restrooms existing, at least in Montreal, Its not like the unpassable or the in between genders have to hold it in forever. Of course, you have to know where they are since not all malls or restaurants have them, but there are plenty. In 3 coffee shops within one block, all have unisex restrooms.

Again, the use of bigot and white supremacists!!!
This is really rilling me up. This is a proper abuse
of language and ad-hominem attack. Are all women
self-loathing bigots except you?

Quote from: Steph on November 22, 2007, 08:29:22 PM
Personally I don't think we need to grow up.  Women have been victimized far to long, and I think that this is just another case of "Men" inflicting their will on us.

Steph

So true. One third of all women in the US will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. I understand women's fear. I too am not comfortable at all with the thought of a 'man' sharing the same restroom with my mother or sisters.
I agree with Kate -  only those diagnosed as transsexual AND undergoing hormone therapy should ever be permitted in women's space.

yes, i dont agree 'self identification' is suitable, its too open to abuse... weather its 'fair' or not...
R :police:

Quote from: Keira on November 24, 2007, 07:05:51 PM

There are plenty of unisex restrooms existing, at least in Montreal, Its not like the unpassable or the in between genders have to hold it in forever. Of course, you have to know where they are since not all malls or restaurants have them, but there are plenty. In 3 coffee shops within one block, all have unisex restrooms.

Again, the use of bigot and white supremacists!!!
This is really rilling me up. This is a proper abuse
of language and ad-hominem attack. Are all women
self-loathing bigots except you?

Most women I know are at least as progressive as I am and wouldn't wilt into a flower when confronted with a qender queer in the rest room. Again, I would like to see data on the instances of gender variant people assaulting women in the rest room.

well, since i'm a bigot, an elitist, old-fashioned and not as "progressive" as you are ::) i dont want any men in my bathroom.  only diagnosed ts's (and on hormones, thanks nero ;)) should be allowed.  period.
written by a non-progressive woman- :laugh: ha ha ha ha

Same for me... there has to be SOME standard... if your not to that level yet? oh well, when you get there....
without some sort of garuntee, things can be abused, and i like my safe space
[/biggoted nastyness and not being fair to everyoneness]
R :police:

Quote from: Katia on November 24, 2007, 10:36:24 PM
i dont want any men in my bathroom.  only diagnosed ts's (and on hormones, thanks nero ;)) should be allowed.  period.
written by a non-progressive woman- :laugh: ha ha ha ha

Neither do I.  I don't want them sharing my space either.  A man should go to the man's toilets or under a tree but he has no business in the ladies toilets.

Quote from: Katia on November 24, 2007, 10:36:24 PM
well, since i'm a bigot, an elitist, old-fashioned and not as "progressive" as you are ::) i dont want any men in my bathroom. 

There's nothing wrong with that. Your bathroom in the privacy of your own house is your bathroom and nobody else's. You have every right to exclude who ever you want from your bathroom and even your home. But the public world outside your private property, what everyone pays taxes to maintain, well that is not exclusively yours. No amount of bragging about being "a bigot, an elitist, old fashioned" will change the fact that you are sharing the rest of the world with...well...the rest of the world.

Sorry but I disagree.  I also call women's toilets "mine" because I'm a woman.  It doesn't matter if that toilet is in my flat, down the street or in another country.  It is still mine because it has a sign on it that reads 'WOMEN" and I'm one of those women and as such I have the right to protest and deny entry to any man who doesnt belong there.

Quote from: Nero on November 24, 2007, 07:53:03 PM

So true. One third of all women in the US will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime.

Many women I've known were sexually abused by other women. How do segregated restrooms help that? Maybe it is mostly men who sexually abuse women but I'm sure it is mostly men who physically assault transgendered people, diagnosed as female or not, when they see a transgendered female walk into their restroom.

There are community standards and
that's how the "rest of the world" works.
Public doesn't mean, do as you please
with no restriction and all restrooms
that I know of are on private property
anyway, which has its own set of limitations.
Do you really think a mall is a public space!
Well, got news for you, it is not.

Its the "home" of whatever corporation owns
the space and they will institute rules to please
the people they hope to get into that space.
The courts have many a time supported that
assertion so its not some blue sky bull I'm
spouting.


Do you really think people when they go
into restrooms have in their minds the
crime rate for gender variants, on what planet
do you live? Where talking about the real world
here not utopia. Even if I wanted to believe
that most women would be open to gender
variants in restrooms I'd bet that any
question on the subject in the
general population would not get you
the answer you think you'd have
(even in those that vote for the democrats).

If you want to change this, political activism,
long term education and possibly court cases
is the way to go. Being in your face about it and
deploring people don't agree with your
point of view will only put the public
in a hardened defensive position which
will set back your cause for quite a while.


Also, are restrooms only for the progressive fringe,
are all other people dammed by their upbringing to
go behind the building, or into a bush...

Quote from: Emmalene on November 25, 2007, 05:23:28 AM

Quote from: Nero on November 24, 2007, 07:53:03 PM

So true. One third of all women in the US will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime.

Many women I've known were sexually abused by other women. How do segregated restrooms help that?

They don't. Yes, there are female abusers, but men are a zillion times more likely to commit sex crimes. (I'm surprised this even has to be pointed out)
No law can protect you from anything under the sun that could possibly happen, but women have a right to pee without worry of peeping toms and rapists posing as women lurking in the stall next to them.

Quote from: Nero on November 24, 2007, 07:53:03 PM
I agree with Kate -  only those diagnosed as transsexual AND undergoing hormone therapy should ever be permitted in women's space.

When I transitioned, my therapist required one year full time rlt before I could even qualify for hrt. By these above standards I guess I was using the bathroom illegally all that time.

What about non-op, non-hrt mtfs? What about transgenderists? Full time crossdressers? Do they have to use the mens room? Who is going to protect our sisters who get beat up or killed in the mens room?

y2g

I just want to clarify what I've said in this thread, then I'm taking my toys and heading home.

Looking at the thread title, the issue here is WOMENS rooms (locker and restrooms); i.e., rooms with the sign WOMEN on the door. The owner of the building put that sign there because he intended it for use by WOMEN only, regardless of what our *personal* opinions are on the validity of segregating by sex may be.

The question here is "how do we expand the legal definition of WOMEN to include more than just genetic females?" The law prompting this thread is NOT about abolishing the men/women system altogether, it's about expanding the interpretation of men and women. If some of you want to lobby the business owners to have only UNISEX bathrooms, that's fine... but until then, we're discussing rooms marked and intended for WOMEN ONLY.

Some people are going off on *personal* tangents about how the entire men/women system is bigoted and should be abolished, implying that since THEY don't agree with it, they also don't have to respect it. Others are insisting that since THEY don't mind sharing facilities with men, no one else should mind either, and again... that they and no one else has to respect the WOMENS sign. And frankly, it's those people and that "I'm right and the hell with everyone else's feelings" attitude that scares me FAR more than sharing a stall with the most sex-obsessed fetishistic crossdresser. Crossdressers are harmless. It's people who don't recognize, let alone respect that it's OK for people to have different comfort levels than themselves that scare the heck out of me.

So when I say, "only transitioning transsexuals should be allowed in women's rooms," I'm thinking from a *legal*, not personal perspective. I've come to learn that many people can't even grasp the concept of separating the two, but I want to be on record for saying it at least. I'm trying to come up with an official law that expands the definition to include non-GGs while still respecting the expectations of anyone walking into a room marked WOMEN ONLY. And those expectations are that only other women will be in that room.

And it's not prompted from a paranoid fear that all men (including crossdressers) are evil rapists, but simply because many women would rather not share a room with men where they're doing rather intimate and private things, whether behind stall doors or not. Personally, I'd rather not get undressed in the same room as a man I don't know, even if he promises to not look or stands behind a partition. It's not that he's sick or scary, it's just that... I dunno... I'd feel vulnerable? Exposed? Maybe some people can't understand that feeling for whatever reason, but it's how I and many other women DO feel, and why many of us want a room to ourselves.

Still, that's my *personal* opinion, and I realize that if I walk into a room marked UNISEX, I'll just have to deal with my discomfort. But as long as that sign says WOMEN, I shouldn't have to worry about it. I realize that puts crossdressers in a bind, and again I *personally* don't think crossdressers are "dangerous" or more prone to assault women than anyone else. But they're STILL men in identity, regardless of their appearance, and thus it's difficult to argue that they should *legally* be allowed access to rooms marked WOMEN ONLY.

~Kate~

There should be 3 rooms !

The womens room is for women, some of this 'progressiveness' contains too many loopholes, if a person is legally a woman, or is legally BECOMING a woman. they can use the WOMENS room, and vice versa with men. Untill they are legally becoming, or are, then stay out!
im all for neutral bathrooms too, but NOT just unisex loos... i like my quiet private space away from men... 'self identify' is too open, and yes, women do comit sex crimes, but as nero said, men are much more likely. and the womens room isnt just a loo, its a refuge from males!
if your Transexual, you can get a letter from your refering doctor to say your trans.... thats enough. but tvs and cds and males 'identifying' as female, and presenting male (this could happen with your progressiveness) im not comfortable sharing the restroom with.
Society can only get so progressive before anarchy breaks out. society has rules for a reason!

Melissa: you must hang out in some uber progressive circles, because all the women i know arent progressive when it comes to THIER rights and private spaces.
R :police:

Besides, as I said, its not like crossdressers
have to pee in the road, in Montreal
at least, there's plenty of unisex bathroom
(usually its a whole room and its for the handicaped
as well).

Saying poor poor crossdressers when there are
obvious options is a bit strange. BTW, how
many cross dressers really go into women's room,
haven't seen any obvious ones in 15 months...
And believe me, they are VERY EASY to spot.

Of course, there are those women who are so
uncomfortable in their own skin that they
will call the police on a butch lesbian in the
room. Though, I don't care how butch they are,
they are obviously female to me... But I digress,
that's an issue for the over 50 mainly.

As for the androgyne, well since they identify with
neither man or woman, they'd have trouble in
either restrooms wouldn't they!!
So I'm sure they'll be glad to use the unisex restrooms
which as I said are plentiful in my neck of the wood.

Quote from: y2gender on November 25, 2007, 09:12:11 AM

Quote from: Nero on November 24, 2007, 07:53:03 PM
I agree with Kate -  only those diagnosed as transsexual AND undergoing hormone therapy should ever be permitted in women's space.

When I transitioned, my therapist required one year full time rlt before I could even qualify for hrt. By these above standards I guess I was using the bathroom illegally all that time.

What about non-op, non-hrt mtfs? What about transgenderists? Full time crossdressers? Do they have to use the mens room? Who is going to protect our sisters who get beat up or killed in the mens room?

y2g

I don't know. I wish unisex restrooms were more prevalent. Thing is, if it were across the board that anyone dressed as a woman had legal access to the Ladies' room, the pervs would come out of the woodwork.

In my case, as a crossdresser,  no problem so far in women's, but in men's, some times people there are surprised or apologize to me to check again whether they are in a 'correct' room. Even in my men's dress, some men there are perplexed simply because of my long hair. It is always a thorny question whether I use men's or women's. But I am sure women's are always cleaner than men's.

What I just want is not to surprise people in the bathroom.

Barbie~~

I guess we should call out the restroom police. There will be an officer at every door, checking ID. You had better have the right ID, that includes the mens room too. The picture should be a new one, maybe have one taken once a month. If you don't then it is out to the bushes for you. You will not enter this establishments potty room without a current ID. They should have added that into the Real ID Act. You should not have a penis in the ladies locker rooms and you shouldn't have a vagina in the mens locker rooms. That is all that matters.
Sheila

no, thats taking words out of peoples mouths... you have to be inclusive, AND realistic. some will be offended, but maintaining the majority balance is important. Monthly is daft, when you change your visual image DRASTICALLY. then you SHOULD update it, its only sensible, id for restrooms? well lets not go that far... women in the womens room, men in the mens, its not a hard concept...
R :police:

Sheila, your being desingenious.
With a spurious straw argument.

A crossdresseer (especially those I've seen)
should not go into women's restroom.
Its called respect for how others feel.
You want them to do the policing and
have to call the mall security if they feel
uncomfortable. Why should the onus on them
as an average representative of society
and not the others.

I think you guys finally convinced me. I don't want anyone with a penis in my women's only safe space. I feel my safety is threatened.

Post-ops or cisgendered women only.

theres only one biggoted post in this thread. and its the one above mine....

Melissa: your attitude is actually expected... and one that is sadly common in the 'postops are better than preops' >-bleeped-< hierarchy that laughingly exists....
i wont resort to personal attacks. but that attitude suggests that preops arnt women... even though thier legally female, or medically qualify... please prove me wrong. but in doing so, your invalidate your own statement. have fun :)
R :police:

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 25, 2007, 02:32:34 PM
I think you guys finally convinced me. I don't want anyone with a penis in my women's only safe space. I feel my safety is threatened.

Post-ops or cisgendered women only.

Firstly, a pre-op transwoman is no more inclined to harm another woman as any woman is, gg or not.

Secondly, a penis on HRT is virtually harmless, is it not?

oh no nero, its not the penis, thats just the warning signal... its the MAN behind the penis that intends to harm women... but if you cut a mans penis of, hes a woman then... and a penisless male is harmless to women.... [/flaming sarcasm]

R :police:

Quote from: Nero on November 25, 2007, 03:09:12 PM
Secondly, a penis on HRT is virtually harmless, is it not?

Based on what mine is like, yes.

Quote from: Rachael on November 25, 2007, 02:58:23 PM
theres only one biggoted post in this thread. and its the one above mine....

Melissa: your attitude is actually expected... and one that is sadly common in the 'postops are better than preops' >-bleeped-< hierarchy that laughingly exists....
i wont resort to personal attacks. but that attitude suggests that preops arnt women... even though thier legally female, or medically qualify... please prove me wrong. but in doing so, your invalidate your own statement. have fun :)
R :police:

I have to agree Rachael.  We nee to remember that trans-men and trans-women are men or women as the case maybe.  The word "trans" simply indicates that they are in the process of transition, therefore would be included in the term "Men" or "Women".  The words "Post" and "Pre" simply indicate how far along they are in transition and has no bearing on their status as women or men.

By definition a male cross-dresser is still a man and not included in the term "Woman".  Likewise and a female cross-dresser is still a woman, therefore should not be included in the term "Men".

So it seems to me.

Steph

Quote from: Rachael on November 25, 2007, 03:22:35 PM
oh no nero, its not the penis, thats just the warning signal... its the MAN behind the penis that intends to harm women... but if you cut a mans penis of, hes a woman then... and a penisless male is harmless to women.... [/flaming sarcasm]

R :police:

I know that. I was just replying to the 'penis in the restroom' statement.

Quote from: Steph on November 25, 2007, 03:32:28 PM
The word "trans" simply indicates that they are in the process of transition, therefore would be included in the term "Men" or "Women".  The words "Post" and "Pre" simply indicate how far along they are in transition and has no bearing on their status as women or men.


Steph

We have to frame this statement in gold and diamonds and post it all over the site.  I love it.  Well said, Steph! :)

tink :icon_chick:

yeah, steph has it... also says a lot about the percived hierarchy in trans communities of post ops being better than preops... melissa's post is further evidence of trans on trans biggotry...
R :police:

How does anyone know? Why should anyone care?
Sheila

I've seen it too many times -- especially when I was on active duty in the military.

Rather than defining the common enemy, banding together, and motivating all the team members towards the goal, groups would devolve into in-fighting, searching for and ejecting those team members that had perceived weakness or otherwise didn't measure up to some dumb-ass ideal.

A waste of resources -- time being one of them.

We transgender are under attack from fundamentalists in politics, in religion, and even in the gay and the lesbian communities.  And yet some of us squander what little resources we have singing the >-bleeped-<-er Than Thou song at the drop of a hat.

We're gonna get kicked again in the ENDA.  I see that one coming unless we as a community can drop the BS and get our [stuff] together.

Karen

Karen,
  You are so right. This is how I lost my battle for ordinance change in my city. Believe it or not, I was the one who was saying only transexuals can use the restrooms and not crossdressers. I was saying what Steph and all the others were saying and was told I was wrong and that the mayor said that if the trans community can not agree on this then we will table it for more education.
   There are too many unanswered questions for me to answer and so I quit it. I'm female and no one bothers me. I live my life the way it should have been and I really don't care what the others do. I got into this conversation to find out if I was right or not. I used some of what others said about me. I had a whole group of them who were against me, and they were talking with Mara Kieslings group and another group from Washington DC. I was by myself and I don't have a college education and all of the others were college grads.
   I have read all the posts, has anyone read my previous posts.
Sheila

I think we need a break from this thread so....

The Ladie's room (http://www.femalerestrooms.com/)

tink :icon_chick:

A great cartoon Tink...

Quote from: Karen on November 25, 2007, 04:43:41 PM
I've seen it too many times -- especially when I was on active duty in the military.

Rather than defining the common enemy, banding together, and motivating all the team members towards the goal, groups would devolve into in-fighting, searching for and ejecting those team members that had perceived weakness or otherwise didn't measure up to some dumb-ass ideal.

A waste of resources -- time being one of them.

We transgender are under attack from fundamentalists in politics, in religion, and even in the gay and the lesbian communities.  And yet some of us squander what little resources we have singing the >-bleeped-<-er Than Thou song at the drop of a hat.

We're gonna get kicked again in the ENDA.  I see that one coming unless we as a community can drop the BS and get our [stuff] together.

Karen

With all due respect...  I don't see where anyone is singing the >-bleeped-<-er Than Thou song and I also don't agree that members debating the issues in this forum is "BS" just because they don't agree with the issue raised in the topic.

Members here have stated their support for the topic under debate, and others have not, and I feel that the insinuation that the beliefs of those that do not support the topic are presenting BS is not warranted.

Personally I am a woman and I feel no inclination to afford CD's or TV's access to opposite gender wash/change rooms just because they like to wear the opposite genders clothing.  I feel that I debated the issue in the forum fairly, albeit with exuberance at times,  but I don't feel it was BS.

Steph

at my university's gay night. a TV tried to follow me into the ladies room... i turned around and asked him if he was a man or a woman. his answer? 'man' so i pointed down the corridor.... frock or not. hes a GUY. i dont care if hes 'playing girl' at the time. Kids playing airplane dont get to use real boeings....
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on November 25, 2007, 09:34:03 AM

im all for neutral bathrooms too, but NOT just unisex loos... i like my quiet private space away from men... 'self identify' is too open, and yes, women do comit sex crimes, but as nero said, men are much more likely. and the womens room isnt just a loo, its a refuge from males!

Would you like your own drinking fountain while you're at it?

Would it have special ladies only scented water? ::)
nope, dont mind sharing where i take water in with men. just not where i let it out thanks!
R :police:

Hello everyone.

I just want to ensure that this issue stays on topic and remains focused on a very important civil rights matter.  It is obvious that there has been hot debate and I hope it continues that way in a positive manner.

Do not resort to snide remarks.

Steph

id like some CDs, or TVs or for this matter, androgyne people, to come here, and tell me thier women, and i will concede my point! I dont see why this is an issue tbh. lets just leave TS out for a moment, that kettle o fish is a bit too snappy, but emelyne seems annoyed i dont want CDs in the ladysroom
CDs, are MEN... not women, if you think your a woman, take another look at your self definition...
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on November 26, 2007, 07:35:03 AM
id like some CDs, or TVs or for this matter, androgyne people, to come here, and tell me thier women, and i will concede my point! I dont see why this is an issue tbh. lets just leave TS out for a moment, that kettle o fish is a bit too snappy, but emelyne seems annoyed i dont want CDs in the ladysroom
CDs, are MEN... not women, if you think your a woman, take another look at your self definition...
R :police:

"tbh"

No familiar with that one :)

Steph

tbh = to be honest
im just too damn l33t for you oldfolks ;)
R :police:

I can understand not wanting men in the changing rooms, I certainly don't want to undress in front of a man. When I say man, I mean someone who identifies as a man.  As a previous poster stated CD's and TV's don't identify themselves as Women.  What I don't get is this whole restroom thing.  There are doors on the stalls, I could care less who is next to me.  As long as they respect my privacy and space in my stall I don't care of they are Male or Female.

Quote from: Rachael on November 26, 2007, 05:34:04 AM
at my university's gay night. a TV tried to follow me into the ladies room... i turned around and asked him if he was a man or a woman. his answer? 'man' so i pointed down the corridor.... frock or not. hes a GUY.

Be careful with that though... justified or not, I don't know if you really have the authority to tell someone they can or can't use the bathroom? Might be better to report incidents which make you uncomfortable instead?

~Kate~

Even if there are doors on the stalls, restrooms are a very lonely place sometimes and if someone wants to assault you a flimsy door is of no help.

something some here dont get. and i can fully understand there are varying levels of female socialisation in the trans community. and i dont mean other ts women....
get out there, get to know other women. and you will realise the ladies room is more than just a toilet... its a SAFE, MALELESS REFUGE (granted its usually for gossip and nattering, but its also a safe place... atleast in the eyes of most of my friends.

Kate:i was the event organiser.... i can, but again, even if i wasnt, id tell him to leave. men dont belong in the ladies room, heels or not.
R :police:

After al this debate I'm still unclear on "woman only" safe space, not that I don't understand the concept, but I get the feeling we as a culture (the non-cisgendered culture) are far more self segregating then the cisgendered world.  We seem to be far more rigid about what defines us then people outside the community.  I'm reminded of a black journalist that chose to attend a predominately white university vs a historically black one, her logic being that the real world wasn't full of just black people and to be a part of society she needed to learn how to function in society.  There are countless other examples along the same lines.

I just don't think men are such horrible creatures we need "safe space" from them.

The world is imperfect, when we set about to segregate ourselves intentionally, we don't make it any better.  The very idea of a "safe space" is a social construct that only furthers a victim mentality.

the safe space from men isnt a trans attutide you will find... its one i share with all my cisgender peers at university. They tried to make bathrooms unisex... and women revolted... its our private space... you dont want men tramping around when your in the loo cramping and feeling vulnerable... a safe place to cry with friends when you get dumped or someone hurts you. a place to repair the warpaint.... chat in clubs as its quieter... photo oportunities... the jokey feminism and manbashing that takes place :D oh and the loo....
its ours,
its mine
you wont take it from us!

for the record, my take of 'woman' stands as such.
anyone born female, or transitioning to, or transitioned, Identifying as female.
same with lockerrooms.

yes women do commit violence against other women, but thats beside the point, women are women. and ENTITLED to the womensroom.
plus the instance of female on female sexual assaults are next to non existant when compared to male on female sexual assaults....
males are more prone to sexual behaviour of that nature crime figures show.
end of the day, my point is this.
if your a man, or neither, find somwhere else... females would be more comfortable with ts women i feel if such a clear distinction was made... instead of 'is it a cd or a ts?' is it a man or woman?
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on November 26, 2007, 09:00:03 AM
something some here dont get. and i can fully understand there are varying levels of female socialisation in the trans community. and i dont mean other ts women....
get out there, get to know other women. and you will realise the ladies room is more than just a toilet... its a SAFE, MALELESS REFUGE (granted its usually for gossip and nattering, but its also a safe place... atleast in the eyes of most of my friends.

Yeah, some here just don't get it. Must be lack of socialization or female sensibilities. You and Kate stated it perfectly. Women simply don't want men around when they're having a private moment. No different than when men get uncomfortable doing certain things or having certain conversations in front of ladies.

this topic is a bit like the 'which is the cleaner loo' topic... it helps if youve USED the ladies  when you go talking about them...
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on November 26, 2007, 10:39:17 AM
this topic is a bit like the 'which is the cleaner loo' topic... it helps if youve USED the ladies  when you go talking about them...
R :police:

And I must admit I've only used public Women's Rooms a few times. You know why? Because I still have the male parts and I don't feel entirely justified being in there, knowing how other women would/might feel if they knew that about me. "Getting away with it" via passing doesn't change anything, and in fact almost makes me feel deceptive and worse about it.

But that's just me...

~Kate~

i dont even think about the parts. im a girl, im no different to them. its a toilet... its not a specific attachment for female genetals that senses if you put a penis in...
anyway, my genetals dont even resemble anything male anymore.... my consience is clean, for once, im NOT deciving anyone. i was by using the mens room. now im free, and telling the TRUTH.
R :police:

Quote from: Nero on November 26, 2007, 10:26:23 AM

Quote from: Rachael on November 26, 2007, 09:00:03 AM
something some here dont get. and i can fully understand there are varying levels of female socialisation in the trans community. and i dont mean other ts women....
get out there, get to know other women. and you will realise the ladies room is more than just a toilet... its a SAFE, MALELESS REFUGE (granted its usually for gossip and nattering, but its also a safe place... atleast in the eyes of most of my friends.

Yeah, some here just don't get it. Must be lack of socialization or female sensibilities. You and Kate stated it perfectly. Women simply don't want men around when they're having a private moment. No different than when men get uncomfortable doing certain things or having certain conversations in front of ladies.

I am as much socialized as a woman as any woman who has posted on this thread. I would have hoped that this thread would not turn into one of those mine is bigger than yours cat fights, mine being "femaleness." (Of course, the I am more female than you is such a guy thing, you know, I mean, you MUST know this, right?)

That said IMNSHO the women who have this irrational fear that some gender queer is going to assault them in the ladies room need a lot more socialization as women just don't think like that at least progressive women don't. Women don't spend our time worrying about such things. If someone does something inappropriate in a  restroom, we just deal with it, we don't spend our time cowering in fear that a man disguised as a crossdresser is going to come into the stall and rape us!

And it bears repeating California has a very liberal restroom law and the stuff that you guys imagine just does not happen IRL.

Posted on: November 26, 2007, 03:22:35 PM

---

Quote from: redfish on November 26, 2007, 03:14:48 PM
The door on the sign specifies the gender, not the required body parts.




edit: sign on the door >>

The thing that disturbs me about those on the side of intolerance is that they are encouraging the type of thought that would ban pre-op transgendered women from the ladies room. As a post-op, I could make a lot of great arguments as to why pre-ops should not be allowed in MY SAFE WOMEN ONLY SPACE.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 26, 2007, 03:26:15 PM

Quote from: Nero on November 26, 2007, 10:26:23 AM

Quote from: Rachael on November 26, 2007, 09:00:03 AM
something some here dont get. and i can fully understand there are varying levels of female socialisation in the trans community. and i dont mean other ts women....
get out there, get to know other women. and you will realise the ladies room is more than just a toilet... its a SAFE, MALELESS REFUGE (granted its usually for gossip and nattering, but its also a safe place... atleast in the eyes of most of my friends.

Yeah, some here just don't get it. Must be lack of socialization or female sensibilities. You and Kate stated it perfectly. Women simply don't want men around when they're having a private moment. No different than when men get uncomfortable doing certain things or having certain conversations in front of ladies.

I am as much socialized as a woman as any woman who has posted on this thread. I would have hoped that this thread would not turn into one of those mine is bigger than yours cat fights, mine being "femaleness." (Of course, the I am more female than you is such a guy thing, you know, I mean, you MUST know this, right?)

That said IMNSHO the women who have this irrational fear that some gender queer is going to assault them in the ladies room need a lot more socialization as women just don't think like that at least progressive women don't. Women don't spend our time worrying about such things. If someone does something inappropriate in a  restroom, we just deal with it, we don't spend our time cowering in fear that a man disguised as a crossdresser is going to come into the stall and rape us!

And it bears repeating California has a very liberal restroom law and the stuff that you guys imagine just does not happen IRL.

Posted on: November 26, 2007, 03:22:35 PM

---

Quote from: redfish on November 26, 2007, 03:14:48 PM
The door on the sign specifies the gender, not the required body parts.




edit: sign on the door >>

The thing that disturbs me about those on the side of intolerance is that they are encouraging the type of thought that would ban pre-op transgendered women from the ladies room. As a post-op, I could make a lot of great arguments as to why pre-ops should not be allowed in MY SAFE WOMEN ONLY SPACE.

I didn't mean you when I said that. I know you're one of the most well socialized women on here.

I think that if one were to re-read the entire thread that one would discover that the general consensus is that TS, pre or post-op are entitled to be granted access to all women's facilities.  The contention arose when it was assumed that by using the term transgender that it included those who consider themselves to be CD or TV.

Steph

genderqueer's assault folk? RIGHT.... Melissa, youve said some good things, and some utterly rubbish things in this thread. and i think there is a point where we need to reach some equilibrium. I dont think women just 'put up' with the fear of assault... we go out of our way to AVOID assault tbh.... its real, and scary, and not something you can just go 'meh' to...
no, 'im more female than you' isnt a guy thing, its a >-bleeped-< thing... as peeing contesteque as it sounds, its fairly aplicable. not every trans woman thinks how other women do, not every woman does too.... but TBH, a lot of transwomen thinking, sadly, is the male view of how women think.
R :police:

The San Francisco LGBT Center announced that it has established gender-neutral bathrooms on the second and fourth floor. Those who in fear of being raped by a gender queer can still use the Men's or Women's room on the first and third floor. The policy was put into effect on the insistence of transgender activists, progressive, forward-thinking folks who understand the need to allow people to pee in the place they are most comfortable in. Those who insist on litmus tests for transpeople before entering the bathroom of their choice are imposing their prejudice on other transfolks and are promoting a position opposite of the vast majority of trans activists.

It is indeed shocking to find so many trans people here who are in favor of regressive rather progressive TG positions. Opinions are of course like...

In my country Argentina, if someone looks like a man & uses the womens washroom, he gets arrested & sent to jail where he will be most likely raped, harrassed and beaten.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 29, 2007, 01:04:47 AM
The San Francisco LGBT Center announced that it has established gender-neutral bathrooms on the second and fourth floor. Those who in fear of being raped by a gender queer can still use the Men's or Women's room on the first and third floor. The policy was put into effect on the insistence of transgender activists, progressive, forward-thinking folks who understand the need to allow people to pee in the place they are most comfortable in. Those who insist on litmus tests for transpeople before entering the bathroom of their choice are imposing their prejudice on other transfolks and are promoting a position opposite of the vast majority of trans activists.

It is indeed shocking to find so many trans people here who are in favor of regressive rather progressive TG positions. Opinions are of course like...

where did the fear of getting raped by genderqueers apear from ? please can you provide me with some facts regarding this?
because your using a term that some androgyne people identify with... thus suggesting androynes rape people in the womens room....
pia: yeah i think thats fair tbh
R :police:

Quote from: Pia on November 29, 2007, 02:26:55 AM
In my country Argentina, if someone looks like a man & uses the womens washroom, he gets arrested & sent to jail where he will be most likely raped, harrassed and beaten.

Hopefully, the regressives here won't get their way and establish that policy in North America.

Letter to SF LGBT Center re: gender-neutral bathrooms. (http://www.srlp.org/documents/PISSR_sf_center_letter.pdf)

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 29, 2007, 01:04:47 AM
The San Francisco LGBT Center announced that it has established gender-neutral bathrooms on the second and fourth floor. Those who in fear of being raped by a gender queer can still use the Men's or Women's room on the first and third floor. The policy was put into effect on the insistence of transgender activists, progressive, forward-thinking folks who understand the need to allow people to pee in the place they are most comfortable in. Those who insist on litmus tests for transpeople before entering the bathroom of their choice are imposing their prejudice on other transfolks and are promoting a position opposite of the vast majority of trans activists.

It is indeed shocking to find so many trans people here who are in favor of regressive rather progressive TG positions.

Categorizing the users of Women's Rooms as regressive, prejudiced and afraid of "being raped by a gender queer" is kinda unfair, don't ya think? But it's exactly that sort of demonizing spin tactic that makes me run faaaaaaar away from the activist community and their making enemies and battles.

Some people transition and consider themselves part of a larger gender-variant community, fighting against the mainstream for changes together, bending the rules of gender roles as needed.

And some people transition and just get on with their lives as ordinary men and women, considering themselves finally PART of the mainstream world, not fighting to change it. Those people often don't think in terms of "trans rights," but rather just "rights" as the ordinary men and women they are. I don't know if activists don't understand that concept, or simply refuse to acknowledge it's validity, but it is what it is.

I don't think either side is wrong. Both have their points. But I DO think it's terribly unfair for the activist community to insist that *everyone* who transitions is by default part of their "community" and war, demonizing anyone who disagrees with them as being a regressive bigot.

~Kate~

I am a female. i dont care if you arnt. i am, and at the end of the day i need a wee... so get out of my way!
R :police:

Kate,
  If it wasn't for the activists, we wouldn't have the rights that we have now. You would still be thinking of changing and maybe you would have never really gotten as far as you have now. Because of the activist we have opened some doors for our future. Now, I do know that there are some who want to go overboard and we need to have people out there who can reel them in a little. It just seems that the people who complain about what the activist do, they don't get in a play a part in the activism. Like stating what most want. Some like to hide their heads in the sand while others do the dirty work and it so happens the ones who do the dirty work want more. You need to stand up and tell these people what you want. Writing to people on the computer will get you nothing, maybe flamed. You need to write to all those groups that were on the list against ENDA. Those are the people you need to talk to. If in another country your statesman, whatever they are called.
  It is hard for people to understand, like this thread. It says "NO MEN IN THE LADIES LOCKER-ROOMS" What is a locker-room? Is it a restroom, washroom or bathroom. Is it a place you change your clothes after, say exercising. Is it a place to shower and change your clothes after say exercising or maybe you have a place at your work place to change. What is a locker-room? People have a big misunderstanding of some words, I know I do. I didn't think a locker-room was a restroom, washroom or bathroom. I knew that it could have one in a locker room. Just need to get the terms right.
Sheila

I don't want men in any ladys toilet.  They dont belong there.  Maybe true, maybe a man is harmless in a lady's toilets, maybe not.  Maybe he's a serial killer waiting to pawn on his next victim.  I dont want to take the risks.  I dont have to.  Men arent welcome there.  I will make sure of that.

Quote from: Kate on November 30, 2007, 01:03:15 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 29, 2007, 01:04:47 AM
The San Francisco LGBT Center announced that it has established gender-neutral bathrooms on the second and fourth floor. Those who in fear of being raped by a gender queer can still use the Men's or Women's room on the first and third floor. The policy was put into effect on the insistence of transgender activists, progressive, forward-thinking folks who understand the need to allow people to pee in the place they are most comfortable in. Those who insist on litmus tests for transpeople before entering the bathroom of their choice are imposing their prejudice on other transfolks and are promoting a position opposite of the vast majority of trans activists.

It is indeed shocking to find so many trans people here who are in favor of regressive rather progressive TG positions.

Categorizing the users of Women's Rooms as regressive, prejudiced and afraid of "being raped by a gender queer" is kinda unfair, don't ya think? But it's exactly that sort of demonizing spin tactic that makes me run faaaaaaar away from the activist community and their making enemies and battles.

Some people transition and consider themselves part of a larger gender-variant community, fighting against the mainstream for changes together, bending the rules of gender roles as needed.

And some people transition and just get on with their lives as ordinary men and women, considering themselves finally PART of the mainstream world, not fighting to change it. Those people often don't think in terms of "trans rights," but rather just "rights" as the ordinary men and women they are. I don't know if activists don't understand that concept, or simply refuse to acknowledge it's validity, but it is what it is.

I don't think either side is wrong. Both have their points.

~Kate~

Do you really feel YOU are part of the mainstream, Kate?

In San Francisco, being in the mainstream means being an activist. (Actually, I feel that I am more a part of the mainstream than the vast majority of women who attempt to transition.) People here know that we are all part of something bigger than us and we have to work together to make this world a better place for all of us. As Gandhi said "We must be the change we wish to see in the world." I try to live by that every day. People who foster intolerance and try to restrict other people's human rights are bigots.

QuoteBut I DO think it's terribly unfair for the activist community to insist that *everyone* who transitions is by default part of their "community" and war, demonizing anyone who disagrees with them as being a regressive bigot.

That is a classic straw argument as the "activist community" can't possibly act as a group. But whether you like it or not, you are part of the community. And I don't know any activist who thinks a person is a bigot simply by disagreeing with her or him.

No one is demonizing anyone but I will continue to speak out against policies of exclusion and intolerance. It is almost blasphemy that women in transition  (pre-op women who are early in transition yet) are the first to exclude others thinking that taking hormones and wearing a dress gives them superiority over others in the trans community.

Posted on: November 30, 2007, 11:03:01 PM

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Quote from: Blanche on November 30, 2007, 11:02:34 PM
I don't want men in any ladys toilet.  They dont belong there.  Maybe true, maybe a man is harmless in a lady's toilets, maybe not.  Maybe he's a serial killer waiting to pawn on his next victim.  I dont want to take the risks.  I dont have to.  Men arent welcome there.  I will make sure of that.

Please  define "man" Is anyone with M on their DL a man? Is anyone with male on their passprt a man? On their birth certificate? If so, there are an awful lot of men here trying to exclude other men from using the ladies room.

A man is anyone who has a male GI being TV, CD.  As long as he has a male gender, he is a man.  As long he isnt female gender, he is a man.

Quote from: Sheila on November 30, 2007, 10:54:17 PM

  It is hard for people to understand, like this thread. It says "NO MEN IN THE LADIES LOCKER-ROOMS" What is a locker-room? Is it a restroom, washroom or bathroom. Is it a place you change your clothes after, say exercising. Is it a place to shower and change your clothes after say exercising or maybe you have a place at your work place to change. What is a locker-room? People have a big misunderstanding of some words, I know I do. I didn't think a locker-room was a restroom, washroom or bathroom. I knew that it could have one in a locker room. Just need to get the terms right.
Sheila

Sheila, the thread title is misleading, here is the issue

Quote"Bill 23-07 adds "gender-identity" to the current Non-Discrimination Law, and will allow males who self identify themselves as females to have open access to ALL women's and girls' restrooms, locker rooms, dressing rooms, and showers. In other words, a male teacher or student will be able to use the female restrooms and locker rooms if he thinks he is a female."

Without respect for the legitimacy of GG's point of view,
there can be no respect for ours.
This is not totally straight forward since there is the option of unisex rooms
as restrooms instead of traditional ones.
I think the energy needed to expend to get any male self declaring themselves
as a women  into women's restrooms
when the option of unisex ones exist is better spent elsewhere

Quote from: Blanche on November 30, 2007, 11:09:20 PM
A man is anyone who has a male GI being TV, CD.  As long as he has a male gender, he is a man.  As long he isnt female gender, he is a man.

That is a pretty simplistic definition. How are you going to determine what someone's gender is? How do you plan to enforce your Draconian stipulation? Why not require at least a female passport to use the ladies room? (In the U.S.)

Now if you've got to ask me about gender variant peeps.  They need a unisex toilet.  The women's toilets isnt the place for them either.

Quote from: Keira on November 30, 2007, 11:11:36 PM

Without respect for the legitimacy of GG's point of view,
there can be no respect for ours.

Huh? You consider your POV different from cisgendered women? That is baffling to me.

Posted on: November 30, 2007, 11:14:38 PM

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Quote from: Blanche on November 30, 2007, 11:13:29 PM
Now if you've got to ask me about gender variant peeps.  They need a unisex toilet.  The women's toilets isnt the place for them either.

I say pre-ops should use the men's room too then. All transwomen are gender-variant BTW

Pre-ops have a female GI. And about not being "modern", I'm from Switzerland, a country much more advanced & progressive than any in the world, even the States.  Men are not allowed in the women's toilets here.

Quote from: Blanche on November 30, 2007, 11:20:31 PM
Pre-ops have a female GI. And about not being "modern", I'm from Switzerland, a country much more advanced & progressive than any in the world, even the States.  Men are not allowed in the women's toilets here.

Then I guess you aren't as progressive as we are in San Francisco. People are allowed to use the restroom that fits their self-identified gender. I have been using restrooms in California for three years and have not run into a single problem as a result of this policy.

Of all people, transpeople have a moral obligation to promote inclusivity and tolerance.

i think were going overboard here... constantly redefining whos alowed and who isnt... and its funny, because nobody here at the end of the day has the final say... its natal women who get to exclude anyone... and yes melissa, that can include postops too, your not invulnerable.
R :police:

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 30, 2007, 11:15:35 PM

Quote from: Blanche on November 30, 2007, 11:13:29 PM
Now if you've got to ask me about gender variant peeps.  They need a unisex toilet.  The women's toilets isnt the place for them either.

I say pre-ops should use the men's room too then. All transwomen are gender-variant BTW

hmmmmm, maybe if enough of us pre-ops, non-ops, TGs, CDs, TVs, androgynes, genderqueers, etc., all start using the mens' room, we'll scare all the guys, they'll have to leave and go in the woods, and we'll have it to ourselves  >:D

y2g

My point of view might be different.
I'm humble enough to not assume it might be.
Unless your telling my you've got
exactly the same opinions on every subject that GG's
have which from what I've heard from you is not a fact
I'd ascertain...

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 30, 2007, 11:25:10 PM
Of all people, transpeople have a moral obligation to promote inclusivity and tolerance.

Peeps have no obligations about anything. 

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 30, 2007, 11:25:10 PM


I have been using restrooms in California for three years and have not run into a single problem as a result of this policy.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 30, 2007, 11:25:10 PM
I say pre-ops should use the men's room too then. All transwomen are gender-variant BTW

??? So based on your own words.   You've been using the women's toilets even when "you were a man".  Not trying to pry or insult, just trying to understand what you meant.

I am going to bed, I will leave you with this:

We must be the change we wish to see in the world. --- Gandhi

My point of view might be different.
I'm humble enough to not assume it might be.
Unless your telling my you've got
exactly the same opinions on every subject that GG's
have which from what I've heard from you is not a fact
I'd ascertain...

I'll be honest melissa.
The only intolerant person I see here is you and
I finished discusssing this further because you
obviously have much too high opinion of yourself
to get any further on this point.
I wish you would not use quotations that your not really living.
I am pissed off...  :o
You are no Ghandi...

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 30, 2007, 11:31:25 PM
I am going to bed, I will leave you with this:

We must be the change we wish to see in the world. --- Gandhi

I think you should change the "we" to "I".  Keep me away from your "we".  It's obvious that I dont belong there.  Sweet dreams!

Quote from: Keira on November 30, 2007, 11:29:56 PM
My point of view might be different.
I'm humble enough to not assume it might be.
Unless your telling my you've got
exactly the same opinions on every subject that GG's
have which from what I've heard from you is not a fact
I'd ascertain...

You are the one that made the implication that all "GGs" think the same and the view of "GGs" differs from those of "TGs" I am still baffled as to what your point is.

Posted on: November 30, 2007, 11:39:06 PM

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Quote from: Blanche on November 30, 2007, 11:34:52 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 30, 2007, 11:31:25 PM
I am going to bed, I will leave you with this:

We must be the change we wish to see in the world. --- Gandhi

I think you should change the "we" to "I".  Keep me away from your "we".  It's obvious that I dont belong there.  Sweet dreams!

Sweet Dreams, I hope you don't try to use the Ladies Room while I am in there.  ::) 8) :o :D :)

"Bill 23-07 adds "gender-identity" to the current Non-Discrimination Law, and will allow males who self identify themselves as females to have open access to ALL women's and girls' restrooms, locker rooms, dressing rooms, and showers. In other words, a male teacher or student will be able to use the female restrooms and locker rooms if he thinks he is a female."

I think this would be OK for people who Identitfy themselves in their expressed gender in the restroom. As far as locker rooms, dressing rooms and showers go. I would hope for some changes to be made for privacy issues. Don't forget that it goes for the men's rooms as well. People don't seem to think about the other side of the coin. If you are a FtoM, where do you go? There is, well the surgery for genitals is not perfected yet. They need to have their privacy. There are people out there that really don't want to have communal showers or dressing areas.
I have asked before, a long time ago, the definition of male or female. What is the definition? From the dictionary, any dictionary. Then define these terms realistically so one can spot it as they go into the restroom.
Sheila

im not gender variant... im perfectly happy as a girl... i transitioned to female, but my gender is fixed thanks....
i dont like being told how im to identify, what i am, and how to think by others, it usually makes me somewhat cranky, and at half 5 in the morning after listening to my housemate watching family guy for hours (grr) im now miffed... this topic is driving me insane,
and there are people posting here, nameless, who ahve insanely biggoted views. and after thier own statement of some mystical obligation, are doing a good job of being a hypocrite...
i have NO obligation to be nice to anybody, or any more inclusive than any of my peers. i should know better? no.
it is not as black and white as man or woman, when it comes to transexual people, and cd/tvs in a toilet situation. i can accept a transexual woman, as a female, i may not open upto her as much as i would someone i presume to be natal female, but i qualify her as a woman. a cd or tv, is in my eyes, and those of most of my peers, male., and as such, should either use the mens room, or considering thier attire, somewhere neutral, ALL places have a disabled loo, BY LAW, use that.... i dont mind sharing a toilet with a transwoman, hey, were all women, and theres cubicals! its not like its 3 to a seat! men? no thanks... private space. locker room? i think you had better pass well, or be very very brave if you use the ladies lockeroom and are m2f and dont pass...it would certainly make me uncomfortable.... hypocite? possibly, afterall im meant to be ultimately accepting of everyone... BS. an unpassing transwoman, or cd/tv looks like a guy, its one of those situations, pass well, anyone can use it... i mean, what i dont know wont make me uncomfortable or hurt me huh?
at the end of the day this topic is simply about passability imo... and certain people in this topic are angling the discussion around to banning those who dont, from womens only spaces, OR including anyone in a frock as a 'woman'
we could play the 'no penis in ladies room' game, but thats not going to get us anywhere, unless they install fanny inspectors at public restrooms... then again, that wouldnt stop an unpassable post op woman getting trouble, or being barred access...
this is too complicated and sensative a matter to mess up tbh. the simplest answer would be, if you have a letter saying your transexual, job done. no letter? better learn to hold it eh? if your a CD or TV? you have no right to be in a ladies only space, painting a picuptruck red and sticking a prancing stallion on the hood doesnt make it a ferrari...  androgynes? well by your own definitnion your not women, so why use it?
ultimately, this is a futile discussion, as we arnt in any position of action. we wont get a say in the hypothetical decision, and at that end, the magical superior post ops, are bumming it down in the gutter with the preops... unless of course, you intend to flash your crotch at anyone who challenges your pressence?
i wholely dissagree with self identification granting access.. its open season to perverts...
melissa: your attitude is quite unhelpful here, and isnt winning any friends.
why cant blanche use the womens room when your there? i garuntee she wont be the one getting challenged...

R :police:

I just told you why I think my opinion might be different.
Learn to read Melissa. Sshh. Can't believe this.

Quote from: Keira on November 30, 2007, 11:31:50 PM

The only intolerant person I see here is you and
I finished discusssing this further because you
obviously have much too high opinion of yourself
to get any further on this point.
I wish you would not use quotations that your not really living.
I am pissed off...  :o
You are no Ghandi...

LOL talk about intolerant and judgmental...anyway I am legally female, I am not fighting for my rights but for the rights of others. I don't call that intolerance. The right always uses that argument i.e. that people who fight against intolerance are guilty of being intolerant of intolerance. Well, yes but look up the Logical Fallacy of a "circular argument."

Posted on: November 30, 2007, 11:46:42 PM

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Quote from: Keira on November 30, 2007, 11:46:06 PM
I just told you why I think my opinion might be different.
Learn to read Melissa. Sshh. Can't believe this.

I thought you already bowed out?

Anyway, it's been fun. (Yes, I really do enjoy a good debate and I don't take it personally if people disagree or attack me) But anyway, I am going to let you all cool off else we will soon see this:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2F5%2F59%2FPadlock.svg%2F512px-Padlock.svg.png&hash=4d7f7906a923a22ce73399a2003bb66eca04d14a)

i thought you'd already gone to bed?
R :police:

Rachael,
  I think we are on the same wave length. How would you feel of a female who is very masculine looking?
Sheila

i have a lot of butch lesbian friends in the uni lgbt... and most have more problems using the ladies than i do... ( ive never had an issue to date *touches wood*) theres butch woman, then theres GUY... theres a difference, they would have to be obviously a dude to get a challenge out of me, but if i did, id be polite, and appologise when corrected... which is beside the point as my lezdar is strong :)
R :police:

Melissa, when you come back...

I've got university degrees of all type (computer engineering, almost entirely based on logic (masters), business (masters concentrating on strategy), public relations (masters), etc). 10 years of university and 15 as an architect of massive time and logic systems of up to hundreds of nodes (obviously, I've studied and worked at the same time). Your "education" of me in logic is plainly offensive.

As I said, the argument is useless and I invite a lock
because you believe you have the absolute universal truth and opinion on everything.

A female who is "masculine" looking is still female and I've never seen a butch female who looks in any way male, only some paranoid women would be bottered by. This is another straw argument.

As for me being here. Went to bed, couldn't sleep. I've got insomnia so sue me  :)

I don't know what a straw arguement is, but I'm sure you do with all of your credentials. I have seen butch females who look like men, and I'm not paranoid. At least about sharing a restroom with someone. When I'm sitting in the stall I don't listen and think oh that must be a male or oh that is all right its a woman. I have a deep voice for a female, but its just like my moms. I have had no problems in the restroom. This is before surgery and after surgery. Have you had your surgery? Just wondering. I have been using the womens room for over 8 years now and I had my surgery over 3 years ago. I would still like to know how anyone can tell if you were either male or female other than they are not trying to express themselve in that gender. A CD/TV usually looks pretty good. How are you going to tell? Look up their dress/skirt? Maybe while they are in the stall, look under or over the stall? Look through the cracks to check them out? Gee, who is the perv now? Not calling anyone a perv, but if you do these acts then I guess you are. I would think that if you were afraid of someone watching you in the restroom, you should be afraid of the homosexuals. Some gay guy going into the mens rooms looking at all those butts lined up at the urinals. Let me see which one do I want to peek at. How about the lesbians? I know going over the limit here. Stating ignorant scenarios. Well, what do you expect from someone who doesn't have all those credentials.
Sheila

locked topic.  we gotta watch what we say here :(