NO MEN IN THE LADIES LOCKER-ROOMS:

[Hazumu]

"Citizens for a Responsible Curriculum"

http://notmyshower.com/

"Bill 23-07 adds "gender-identity" to the current Non-Discrimination Law, and will allow males who self identify themselves as females to have open access to ALL women's and girls' restrooms, locker rooms, dressing rooms, and showers. In other words, a male teacher or student will be able to use the female restrooms and locker rooms if he thinks he is a female."

Karen

[Susan]

I suggest not.

[Kate]

They have a point, don't they?

While they're motives may be questionable, I sorta share some of their concerns. A woman walking into a restroom marked "Women" has every right to expect to encounter only other females while in there. *I* don't even feel I have a right to use women's rooms, since I'm still legally male with male parts. I do it, but I accept the risk that someone might protest, and would have a valid right to do so - although I'd hope to be forgiven once once my transitioning status was known. Which is why I still always have with me my "Carry Letter," old and new Driver's Licenses and Court Ordered Name Change. I realize and accept that I AM bending societies rules at the moment, so I'm making every effort to accomodate any concerns they may have until I can blend back into the system as a legal female.

The existing policy of matching genitals with restroom labels, but with an assumed "don't ask don't tell" policy that transitioning transsexuals won't be bothered, seems to generally work. If they want to make that exception into a law, make it so that ONLY medically diagnosed, transitioning transsexuals can legally use restrooms contrary to their genitals. Otherwise, the whole concept of "Men" and "Women's" rooms becomes meaningless.

~Kate~

[Steph]

Respectfully... "Men" do not belong in women's restroom, or change rooms, it matters not who or what they identify as.  Diagnosed Transsexuals are different in that they are women with a male body, but even then some would be very uncomfortable with pre-op male genitalia being in the women's washroom.  A carry letter certifying TSism may be the way to go but who is to say that they have not been faked.

Call me a prude, but I would not want and I would protest loudly should a young daughter of mine be exposed to a "Man" in the same washroom.

Steph

[Valentina]

I dont want to sound callous but this has to do with the passing business. 

[TheBattler]

I must say I had a good long hard think about this last night.

So where does a cross dresser go to the toliet. The disable toliet is the best as it is usaly gender nutural - but I have been to the ladies when out as Alice - just the best of a bad choice.

I read a lot on their website and a few subseqent websites and in the end they did not want to understand us - and tried to blame the condition on our releationship with our fathers - so I had to distrust what they where saying. If they came from the point of view of seing a problem and looking for a solution (gender nutural bathrooms) it would of been ok - but their propergander was unacceptable to me in the end.

Alice

[HelenW]

By judging people on who they are rather than what they do we are sinking to the same level as the right wingers who would deny us our rights.  The mere presence of a penis, even if it's on a heterosexual male cross dresser or a pre/non-op lesbian transsexual, does not hurt anyone.

People ought to be judged on what they do, not who they are, if ya ask me, as assuming that someone doesn't belong in a bathroom because of what their bodies look like is negatively judging, dare I say prejudging, the same way bigots prejudge us.

Rude behavior in any public restroom: gawking, peeing standing up, rude comments, etc. should be punished (I suggest public flogging) but simply going to the bathroom and behaving the way the rest of the people in that bathroom behave should not be sanctioned.  And under behavior, I also mean what clothes they put on and their attempted presentation.

The bigots keep trying to make trans people's use of public bathrooms for the gender they identify with an issue of safety.  Has anyone ever heard of a woman being assaulted in a gendered public bathroom by a trans person?  I haven't.  They do not have anything close to a point.  It's a deceitful strategy that panders to ignorance and unfamiliarity, the fear that arises from it and the hatred that can be generated out of that fear.

Sanction bad behavior, not identity, is my point.  To do otherwise is to fall into the same thought patterns that people use to discriminate against us.

emelye

[Steph]

By judging people on who they are rather than what they do we are sinking to the same level as the right wingers who would deny us our rights.  ...
...
emelye

And generally speaking I would agree if the person was a mtf transsexual however I have concerns with a "Man" who dresses in women's cloths because it makes "Him" feel good about himself, or a "Man" with a transvestic fetish who gets "Turned on sexually" wearing women's cloths, being in the same washroom as young girls.  I know for a fact from a close friend (CD) who used to get a ragging hard-on when he was out and about dressed in public - not appropriate for the "Women's" washroom.

Just because someone want to dress and look like a woman doesn't make them one.  Ya I know, I know I'm being narrow minded again.

Steph

[TheBattler]

By judging people on who they are rather than what they do we are sinking to the same level as the right wingers who would deny us our rights.  ...
...
emelye

And generally speaking I would agree if the person was a mtf transsexual however I have concerns with a "Man" who dresses in women's cloths because it makes "Him" feel good about himself, or a "Man" with a transvestic fetish who gets "Turned on sexually" wearing women's cloths, being in the same washroom as young girls.  I know for a fact from a close friend (CD) who used to get a ragging hard-on when he was out and about dressed in public - not appropriate for the "Women's" washroom.

Just because someone want to dress and look like a woman doesn't make them one.  Ya I know, I know I'm being narrow minded again.
Steph

Yeap because it is not that simple. I tried to shut myself down cause I was worried that I would be seen a just a sexual devient and I felt I just did not fit in. Of course all I got was depression and I almost terminated myself because if the guilt, shame, anger and frustration of not being about to just get on with my life.

And in many ways now I am coming out of depression I have to face those sames feelings again        .

Why does it have to be so hard??

Alice

[melissa90299]

In Cali, anyone can use the restroom appropriate to their gender ID. I have never seen a problem occur. People need to grow up. The stalls are private. If some CD acts inappropriately, that can be dealt with.

Posted on: November 22, 2007, 08:11:54 PM

Respectfully... "Men" do not belong in women's restroom, or change rooms, it matters not who or what they identify as.  Diagnosed Transsexuals are different in that they are women with a male body, but even then some would be very uncomfortable with pre-op male genitalia being in the women's washroom. 

That would be their problem then, wouldn't it? I see trans woman in the gym locker room who are obviously pre-op, it doesn't bother me in the least.

[Steph]

Personally I don't think we need to grow up.  Women have been victimized far to long, and I think that this is just another case of "Men" inflicting their will on us.

Steph

[Hazumu]

There are those on the Right who wish to make post-op MtFs use the mens room for the rest of their lives.  They are using trans as the bogeyman to stir up support for their agenda.

There are CDs who get intense sexual arousal from dressing and going out.

I am pre-op.  I need a safe place to pee, dammit.  And there aren't enough unisex/handicapped/single-holers often when I go out.  I haven't been to a gym since I started transition, and I'm damned tired of driving home all sweaty.

I'm not going to hurt anyone.  And I'm damned tired of worrying if I'll get confronted and kicked out of a facility just because of my original factory equipment (even though it's been thoroughly disarmed thanks to anti-androgens.)

What if I were non-op?  What if it were for medical reasons?  I doubt if I'd be escorting a raging erection into the ladies' Sanctuary, ever.

Some of the posters to this thread who are calling for a total ban on penises in women's facilities used women's facilities while still in possession of said penises.  And claiming that nothing less than a total ban on penises is necessary, is disingenuous.

Can we propose a system for those who reach a certain stage in their transition where they should stop using facilities for their birth sex and are officially allowed to use facilities appropriate to their true gender?  A system that doesn't require the sometimes unattainable SRS, that will admit certain medically-verified pre-op MtFs?  Can we propose a system which reasonable str8 people can agree to?

May I suggest that guidelines be incorporated into the WPATH SOC.  A trans-woman who starts her RLE gets a potty-pass.  Make the card nigh-on impossible to forge or duplicate, with microprinting and foil holograms.  The card is an indication the bearer has been on HRT long enough to a) prove she's serious about transitioning and b) greatly reduce her male libido, thus rendering her very unlikely to sexually accost another woman or (horror!) girl in the facility.  Further, she should be admitted to dressing/showering facilities if they provide a private area to change and shower -- perhaps curtained changing/showering alcoves.  And make a system that will track and review complaints of inappropriate behaviour -- both to catch those who shouldn't be allowed this privilege, and to investigate claims to prevent cisgendered from using the system to harass transwomen.

There -- I've started the ball rolling.  Please improve on my system, or tweak the parameters.

Karen

[Steph]

I have no problem with women using the women's washrooms Karen, you are a woman, TS Women are women, they always have been and always will be.  It's men who I object to using our washrooms.

Steph

[Hazumu]

I have no problem with women using the women's washrooms Karen, you are a woman, TS Women are women, they always have been and always will be.  It's men who I object to using our washrooms.

Steph

But it seems that some have said that possession of a penis bars one from using facilities reserved for women, even if the possessor is a full-on medically-certified transitioner.

I don't want guys in the locker room or toilet, either.

But I also don't want to be denied access merely on the technicality that I still possess one of those factory-equipment penises, nevermind how well I present nor how passible I may be.

Although I live in California, where there are laws preventing the denying of me access to facilities that match my gender presentation, and where the DMV provides a relatively easy method of changing the gender designator on my drivers' license, I work on a federal military reservation where said laws do not apply.  I recently found from my immediate supervisor that Civilian Personnel had determined that I was not to be allowed into female restrooms.  Essentially, unless I can find a unisex facility, I must use male facilities on base.  Thankfully, most people who know of me look the other way when I break said rule (regularly.)  But, they could make an issue of it.

And I haven't heard of a procedure to get that all changed once I finally do get SRS.  My plan is to first apply for a court-ordered change of gender, then wait six weeks for the court date and granting of the legal change.  After that, I'll apply to the Social Security Administration to change gender, then wait for it to propagate through the system (probably another two weeks.)  Then I'll apply to the Air Force Personnel Center to change my gender in their records.  Once I get the SF-50 form that shows the change is made, I will brazenly follow my flight chief into the restroom she uses and take the stall next to hers.  And if they feel that I still do not have the right to use the ladies room after all that, I will ask for them to say so in writing and then start a discrimination proceeding.

My suggestion is to come up with some reasonable standard for determining when a transitioner should switch from one facility to the other.  Other areas of the US are very much more restrictive than California is in these matters, although California can't beat Canada for progressiveness on this issue (help me out here, Dennis!)

Speaking of Dennis, I was amazed to find out just how progressive Canada is.  It makes parts of the United States sound like repressive third-world countries when it comes to trans issues.

Anyway, can we come up with some guidelines here?

Karen

[KarenLyn]

Three months into my transition, even though I didn't feel especially passable, I was using the women's facilities at the local Navy base. I had only been on hormones a couple weeks. If I had been forced to use the men's facilities due to my "plumbing" or lack of time on hrt, I would have been in serious trouble.
Apparently, even that early, I passed better than I knew because no one ever complained. I've never used a "carry letter". The only thing I made sure of was I changed my name and ID legally before beginning my transition. I don't know of any other way of determining who should be able to use which rest rooms.
It seems to me that the world lacks any sense these days. I agree with Melissa. If someone acts inappropriately, call security. I they behave in a reasonable manner, leave them alone. There's enough grief in the world.

Karen Lyn

[LostInTime]

A carry letter certifying TSism may be the way to go but who is to say that they have not been faked.

The one forced on me by my endoc is off of her prescription pad. To mess with a prescription pad is a felony so if all endocs in the US issued letters in that way maybe the letters would pass some sort of smell test.

However, what about butch females? I have a dyke friend who has had way more trouble using the womens restroom than I have had in my life.

[Enigma]

Rude behavior in any public restroom: gawking, peeing standing up, rude comments, etc. should be punished (I suggest public flogging) but simply going to the bathroom and behaving the way the rest of the people in that bathroom behave should not be sanctioned.  And under behavior, I also mean what clothes they put on and their attempted presentation.

You have to be careful in defining "rude" bathroom behavior.  If you stop and think about it, most bathroom behavior flirts with being "rude".  Especially the standing up part, there once was an incident in probably a mall bathroom where a woman's feet were observed to face towards the toilet.  Women in the restroom panicked, security was summoned.  It turned out to be a woman empyting a colostomy bag.

Posted on: November 23, 2007, 09:28:35 AM

Personally I don't think we need to grow up.  Women have been victimized far to long, and I think that this is just another case of "Men" inflicting their will on us.

Why do we insist on preserving a victim mentality?  Does that make us our own worst enemy?

Posted on: November 23, 2007, 09:30:50 AM

My suggestion is to come up with some reasonable standard for determining when a transitioner should switch from one facility to the other.  Other areas of the US are very much more restrictive than California is in these matters, although California can't beat Canada for progressiveness on this issue

Even though this tiptoes down the seperate but equal path, why put the obligation on us to prove ourselves?  It becomes a never ending game, in some form or fashion we're constantly required to prove ourselves.

Simple solution, identify some facilities as gender neutral (or at least trans friendly), cisgendered women that don't mind sharing a bathroom with non-cisgendered women can choose accordingly as can cisgendered women that are uncomfortable with it.  For once, make them adapt to our needs, not the other way around.

Maybe for the fact that the majorty of people using restrooms approach it like a SWAT raid (get in, do what you need to do, get out) will highlight the insanity of "no penises allowed" and those people that have other motives in mind in the restroom, like they are already, will be severely dealt with.

[ssindysmith]

I don't understand all the issues here? Like Steph said if you are female (that includes a variety of definitions i.e. TS pre or post OP etc. etc.) then why not use the ladies room? Men who are men have no business in the ladies room, in fact most men I know don't even consider using the ladies room that is unless theres a huge line LOL ya right that will never happen.

I tend look at this issue using the duck theory "if looks like a duck it must be a duck"

[Sheila]

I had this problem with the city when I was trying to change the ordinance. There were people who thought the showers and locker rooms should be open to anyone who identitifies as TG. I disagreed, but stated that it could be open if they had some sort of ID that showed they were TS and were in the transitioning mode. That maybe there could be some accomodations made. Now, this is for locker rooms and showers, like in Gyms. Now, for restrooms, they should be open to anyone who identitifies as TG. If your expression is male then you use the mens room, if you ID yourself as female then you use the womens room. No one sees your private parts or shouldn't anyway. As far as men going into a womens restroom to do things to children or women, that is rediculous. I had a nation wide search for anything that remotely had anything to do with men dressing up as women to harrass them in the restroom. There was nothing. Yet, the church people still insist that will happen. A person needs to use the restroom, period.
Sheila

[Steph]

I had this problem with the city when I was trying to change the ordinance. There were people who thought the showers and locker rooms should be open to anyone who identitifies as TG. I disagreed, but stated that it could be open if they had some sort of ID that showed they were TS and were in the transitioning mode. That maybe there could be some accomodations made. Now, this is for locker rooms and showers, like in Gyms. Now, for restrooms, they should be open to anyone who identitifies as TG. If your expression is male then you use the mens room, if you ID yourself as female then you use the womens room. No one sees your private parts or shouldn't anyway. As far as men going into a womens restroom to do things to children or women, that is rediculous. I had a nation wide search for anything that remotely had anything to do with men dressing up as women to harrass them in the restroom. There was nothing. Yet, the church people still insist that will happen. A person needs to use the restroom, period.
Sheila

And I agree - men should use mens facilities and women should use womens facilities.  "Men dressing up as women" should not be in the womens washroom or anyother womens facilities.  It all comes down to acceptance, I challenge anyone to go to the gym and let mr wobbly loose and see how much acceptance you get, forcing people to accept us does not mean acceptance, educating them will.  And lets not get my concerns confused here.  If a TS is in transition going through RLE then that person has every right to use the facilities of the gender they identify as.  Men dressing to look the part, to feel good, or to get an emotional or sexual high do not.  Finally I don't think of myself as being rediculous when I have a concern that there are sexual predators out there.

Steph